EV Digest 2872
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DC controler questions.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: What 156V controllers are available?
by "Dodson Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Correction on available SepEx controllers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: DC controler questions.
by "Brian Geary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday, 6/28/03 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC-to-DC motor controllers as chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Automatic Battery Cycler/Exerciser
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Meter question
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Driving the NiCd Fiero
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC controler questions.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What 156V controllers are available?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Test run of Citroen with new batteries. Question re breakin.
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DC controler questions.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) regenerative brakeing
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What 156V controllers are available?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: regenerative brakeing
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC controler questions.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Charging at campgrounds
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: DC controler questions.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> think an
> > electric car should be your primary car except for trips out of
> town.
>
> This last sentence is exactly how I like to view it. I don't
> view the EV as a "second" vehicle; it is the primary vehicle.
> For that longer trip every couple of weeks, month or two, get the
> gasser warmed up and enjoy the scenery. If the EV charging
> infrastructure ever builds out (not likely), then our EVs could
> take on more and more of the gasser's job.
>
And it's not long before your eyeing your "second" vehicle the gas Bruner
and thinking " I don't use this much anymore and it would be nice as an
electric. " The third is a little hard to justify "It's for sale " works for
me .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Put me on your list for charging on the EAST cost I'm 3 miles form I 95 and
TP in Florida , I've been trying to get Jon to set this up on the
www.grassrootsev.com web site. The left cost ( have I got that right ) has
really got this going on , time to do a little catch-up here ,
>
> Best we can do here on the East Coast. Well, that and my map of
> places-to-charge that I am trying to put together.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had regen on my work truck and loved it till it brunned out (twice) , I
don't really miss it now and wouldn't spend the money for somthing that
makes a few pennys of electricy and cost so much . It will be your weak link
and let you down sometime . If you want it that bad go with victor's AC
setup , I've not heard to many with series DC haveing it work well of long.
With your setup of used and expencive batteries I would be working on a
simple BMS , so you can find and keep charged the weakest one in the pack .
Put your time in where it will do the most good.
The regin on my old zapi would put out about 20 amps/120v and keep putting
out to about 5mph which is a lot better then anything your talking about and
still was not worth the trouble . I'm sure you can do it but is it worth
your time?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
> Hi, I was wondering a bit about this too, and I decided that the answer
was
> a separate small pmdc motor, for me at 72 volts, I plan to add a 90 volt
> motor to my system somewhere, if controlled by a pulley like the aircond
> electric clutch this would produce little drag when driving and when
engaged
> as gen, any heat would be applied to a motor that is not the drive motor,
> thus reducing the risk of damage.
>
> I figure that for the sake of a few pounds each, if one wasn't enough,
> others could be added and staged from multiple switches at the top of the
> brake pedal travel, just like your brake lights are.
>
> This also allows for the removal of the vacuum pump because the regen
> braking will take over the effort supplied by vacuum and only require the
> remaining brake force to fully stop or hold the car still once stopped.
>
> It seems like a practical solution to me, what do others think ?
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a truck conversion. It has 144v of lead acid batteries and a 156V
DCP. In a year are so, when the floodies die, I plan to upgrade to NiZn. I
would like to carry as much zinc as possible in a single string.
If the 156V limit of the controller is based on the maximum voltage of the
lead pack being greater than the 156V nominal, what would be the maximum
nominal amount of NiZn batteries? Would the nominal voltage of the NiZn
pack be 156V or slightly more or less?
Does it make a difference if an interlock keeps the controller from being
turned on during the charge cycle?
> For those who might be mystified as to why 156V is a typical cutoff
> point for controllers, I believe it's because that nominal voltage can
> go to something just under 200V during charging. 200V is a typical
> ceiling for power silicon. Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Only sepex controllers for 96v nominal pack (which is the rating you are
looking for, are made by:
Zapi http://www.zapiinc.com/sem.html
Sem3 is rated for 96v/500a
or
Elektrosistem http://www.agvp.com/PDFs/Elektrosistem%20PHOENIX%20ING.pdf
Source is Elektrosistem Controls, via AVB in NC, USA 704-845-1110 v /
704-845-1111 f
Phoenix T61 - 600a x 96v $1108 ea
Phoenix T81 - 800a x 96v $2062 ea
(pricing from quote I got in 10/02.
-Ed Thorpe
Levine wrote:
I found out both Sevcon and Curtis have SepEx controllers that go as high as
80V:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i guess what your all saying is that regen with dc is not that fesable
or worth the time, money, ect.
i guess i also need to do more research into components from what people
have said kostov are good motors right? are they better then advanced
DC?
if there is a place on the net to find this info that would be awsome.
kinda like a product review.
here is what my plans are let me know what you think.
im going to use a subaru GL not shure if sedan or wagon.
ive figured out that i can load about 20-30 batteries in it(with some
subframes and strenthening)
im figureing on useing the biggest motor i can afford that weights under
200lbs. that way whatever motor i have dosnt have to work as hard as if
i had used an 8in or somthing like that.
i dont know what kind of batteries are good i do want 6volt thought. im
also thinking of useing a honda ICE generator that is made for welding
that puts out somthing like 100amps or so for extended travil.
the subaru wights in at about 2500(-ice would be 2000)then add all the
stuff and it would be between 4000-5000lbs. what do you think.?
one last question. is there any good books to read that would help me
with more of the standard planing that way i can keep from crowding the
list with stupid questions thanks a bunch brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Charging discussion, and how to adapt for Avcon
Saturday, June 28, 2003
>From 10 to 12 noon.
Meeting Location: Alameda First Baptist Church, 1515 Santa Clara Ave,
Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
We were hoping to have some input from the local Alameda Power & Telecom on
how the public has responded over the years to EVs and how they are reacting
to EVs being taken away. But they've downscaled their electric program so
much that there's nothing left to talk about. Already they have lost their
Honda EV+ and just recently the Toyota RAV4 EV - both leased vehicles. They
still have their Sparrow, but don't know about their Ford EV Rangers.
Otherwise they have replaced with hybrid Prius.
So, Ed Thorpe is going to share/review what has been available, and what is
left with public charging. For those with EVs (mostly conversions), there's
the question of how to connect to what public charging is available. Since
Ed drives a Sparrow with a charger that can plug into both 110vac and
220vac, he will be discuss (and demonstrate) how vehicles can be adapted
using the AVCON inlet. With this inlet, or the AVCON adapter box available
through the EAA Merchandise, an EV with 220v charger can plug into many
public-charging stations.
Also we will have discussion about a possible Fall EV Rally, in the Hayward
area, for our August meeting date. And there will be discussion about the
state of EVs, the new sticker required for access to public charging parking
spaces, and participation in Alameda's 4th of July Parade.
For more information about AVCON:
* AVCON company site http://www.avconev.com
* AVCON product specs, for inlet information
http://www.avconev.com/artwork/avcon-flyer-01.pdf
* Information about the AVCON adapter box
http://www.eaaev.org/avcon1450.html
* Explaination of Level 2 Charging
http://geocities.com/evcharging/level2evcharging.html
* Comparison of Inductive vs. Conductive standards (from LADWP)
http://www.greenla.com/ev/chargertypes.htm
Directions: Church is on North side of street, at the corner of Santa Clara
Ave and Stanton St in Alameda. Turn North on Stanton St. and left into the
parking lot.
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Apartment managers are human beings. If you approach them
>> right, they will let you charge. Usually, this just means making
>> sure it won't cost them money.
Chuck Hursch wrote [snip]:
> ...I tried to do it right by writing the formal proposal and
> not just dumping a cord over the rail of my deck. She (the apt
> manager) did take the initiative to make it happen, and they
> have not hassled me about it since, so that counts for something.
> A lot of work, though, in a society that professes a great want
> for clean air. Seems to me there is a big disconnect between the
> CA/CARB policies and mandates, and what ends up happening down at
> the "street".
I see what you mean. It sounds like a rough situation. I'm glad you
stuck with it, and it had a happy ending.
In my case, I've lived in 3 different apartments where I charged my EVs.
I made sure I was a "good" tenant in the eyes of the landlord. (In one
case, that just meant he hated me the least (they aren't called
landLORDs for nothing :-)
I did small repairs around the apartments myself; shoveled snow,
replaced outside light bulbs, etc. Things that other tenants would bug
the landlord about. As a result, he cut me more slack than he gave some
of the others.
I happened to be paying for my own electricity in all these cases, so
there was no cost to the landlord for charging my EV. In situations
where this isn't the case, one might be able to call the power company
and have your own metered outlet installed. The cost for charging your
EV probably won't even reach the minimum monthly charge. You might even
offer to add security lighting to that same circuit, so other tenants
and the landlord also get some benefit from your charging circuit.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Levine Family wrote:
>
> In searching for motor controllers, I have noted a lot of controllers that
> allow varying the speed of a DC motor run off of the AC line, such as for
> lathes and such. Can one of these be used as a battery charger, sort of like
> a variable power supply, or is there something that prevents this use?
Yes; they are generally phase-controlled, like a light dimmer or
variable-speed electric drill. These are very cheap, simple circuits,
and have been used in battery chargers like the K&W, Russco, etc. The
drawback is that they are noisy (interfere with radios), and poorly
utilize an AC outlet (you can only get about half the outlet's power
rating without tripping breakers).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> I have been thinking about trying to cobble up some kind of
> automatic/semi-automatic load bank/charger setup...
> I have a number of 12 volt and 28 volt coil relay/contactors...
> quite a few feet of old AC heat strip (nichrome coil sping type)
> I have a Rudman MK something or another regulator...
> using my upgraded FR charger for input..
You've got the basics. Wire up the nichrome wire and some switches so
you can select different load resistances. Get any reasonable charger to
recharge the batteries. A Rudman regulator operating a big relay to
switch between charge-discharge will handle the control. I published the
circuit for mine a while back, and Joe Smalley published a similar one
more recently.
For a 12v battery, I generally use a 25-amp load so I can compare the
results to the manufacturer's ratings. For 6v, I use a 75-amp load. I
have bigger and smaller resistors for special testing, like 1-hour or
20-hour rates.
For cycling tests, I normally set the Rudman regulator for a cutoff
around 1.75v/cell (10.5v for a 12v battery), and a charger cutoff of
2.5v/cell (15v for a 12v battery). You need to change these for special
cases, like old batteries that will never reach 2.5v/cell, or very high
current discharges where 1.67v/cell might be a better cuttoff point.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you're underestimating the weight a little if the VW conversion
is going to have more then a 10 mile range (and decent
acceleration/voltage). The Aztec 7 (a rare VW kit car) weighed 1400 lbs
assembled with a 1600cc VW engine. I'd expect a solid performing
conversion to be fairly significantly over that. Additionally, the VW
kits are little more than a couple floor pans with a very simple square
tube frame.
The Ultima GTR kit is a racing spec space frame with beefier suspension
and more space for batteries in the right places. If I had a ton of
cash and was looking to make a performance EV I'd be tempted to go with
the GTR as well. $27K isn't a horrible base price and after dumping the
parts you don't need (gas tank/exhaust) and adding the stuff you do
(like an interior) the car would be about $35K as a kit. Add another
$8K-$10K for conversion and you should be able to get a really slick
looking sport performance EV for the price of a Beemer.
That eBay auction certainly smells like a scam, but the idea of using an
advanced kit car like the Ultima GTR (or maybe the Attack) is a good one.
Related links:
The Ultima kit (sans body):
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/usa/pics/usakit.jpg
USA version of the site: http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/usa/index.html
A very nicely detailed build diary: http://www.ultima-gtr.info/
The Attack: http://www.k1-styling.sk/default2.htm
VW Kits -
Sterling (was still made until recently, can be found moderately
frequently on eBay):
http://www.kitcar.com/sterling/home.html
http://www.nhlotteryonline.com/Sterling/
Aztec 7 (no longer made, used a $4000 Lamborghini windshield, but you
can get a replacement for $350 nowadays. I've seen a few on eBay here
and there):
http://www.priceofhistoys.com/project/aztec7/
Various other VW kits:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4570/
-Alaric
Member of the AAEVA
http://www.austinev.org
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
2138 lbs is a little heavy for a kit car. You could do 1500 with a VW based
glider and weigh that with the batteries installed..Lawrence Rhodes....
----------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:34 AM
Subject: RE: Li-ion car on eBay: real or vapor?
The Levine Family wrote:
This car is listed as a "Solar Electric Vehicle" with a model
year of 2004:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=
2420246849
Any know anything about this?
I knew the Ultima was a high-end kit car from England, but I didn't know
they had a US distributor. Or that someone was making an EV version.
See http://www.ultimacars.com/home_page_fra.htm
I find it hard to believe whoever is making these has enough experience
with LiIon to make a car the customer will be happy with. Even if I had
the money, I'd have to do a *lot* of investigating before putting it
down on this car.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am hoping others will elaborate a bit more on this.
Joe is right to put a resistor in series before you
put it across a voltage source.
An analog meter movement is a current device. The
windings have their own internal resistance (impedence).
A certain amount of current (milli or micro amps) makes
the meter move (deflect).
Determining the correct resistor to use in series for
the reading you want is the goal. This is basic
electronics, where resistors are put in series to know
the voltage drops across and the current through them.
Joe suggested you start with a 50k resistor. I would
use a variable 50k resistor (one where you can change
the resistance on the fly). You could put your pack
voltage across it and adjust the variable resistor
until the meter gently deflects to its maximum. If
at the highest resistence setting, the meter pegs
violently, you need a larger resistance.
Others can go into more detail if you want, but I
figured you just wanted to make use of the meter right
away without going into a full basic electronics
course.
I am hoping others will elaborate a bit more on this.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Oh I was just talking about a glider. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Ah. Missed this the first time round. That's what I get for not
reading the list for a couple days. Too many messages to read and I
miss a couple.
-Alaric
Member of the AAEVA
http://www.austinev.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Wierick stopped by today in the
1984 Fiero I sold him last year.
I posted to the list the sweet deal
on SAFT NiCd batteries Jim bought.
He has 20 of them installed and just
included a 1231 Curtis control.
I took it for a drive on the interstate
and drove comfortably at 70 to 80 MPH.
I must say I am impressed with the effort
he has put into this car.
It keeps up with traffic quite well and
has a range of at least 60 miles.
I took several pictures and will post them
on my web site soon (www.qsl.net/w8rnh)
I was really impressed with the braking
capability, he just installed a Gast vacuum
pump with a homemade PVC accumulator.
The car weighs 3500 lbs but it stops better
than my V6 1986 Fiero SE.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Geary wrote:
> I guess what your all saying is that regen with dc is not that fesable
> or worth the time, money, etc.
You are basically correct, though that is an oversimplification.
The main problem is that EVers (both hobbyists and commercial buyers)
tend to buy the cheapest motors. This is the series motor. Series motors
make poor generators.
Controllers can make any motor work as a generator, even series motors.
But, it adds cost to the controller; since series motos are the hardest,
regen controllers for them cost the most. Most controller buyers won't
pay the extra cost.
> Kostov are good motors right? Are they better then Advanced DC?
There's nothing "advanced" about Kostov motors, which are made in
Bulgaria. The same is true for Advanced DC -- Tom Edison would have
completely recognized both of them.
Both are equivalent. The Kostov is a little cruder and heavier. The
Advanced DC's a little lighter but more fragile.
> I'm going to use a Subaru GL not sure if sedan or wagon.
That sounds reasonable.
> I've figured out that I can load about 20-30 batteries in it (with
> some subframes and strenthening)
Be careful not to exceed the GVWR of the car and you should be OK.
> I'm figureing on using the biggest motor I can afford that weighs
> under 200lbs.
Why? That's the size used in a city bus. People go drag racing with
motors that big!
> I don't know what kind of batteries are good. I do want 6 volt though.
But they weigh over 60 lbs each. Don't expect to put 20-30 of them in a
Subaru!
> I'm also thinking of useing a honda ICE generator that is made for
> welding that puts out somthing like 100amps for extended travel.
If you want a generator, the most efficient method is to couple a DC
generator to a small engine. That way you minimize conversion losses.
Running an engine to spin an AC alternator, to drive a battery charger,
to charge the batteries wastes half your power.
> the subaru weigts about 2500 (-ice would be 2000) then add all the
> stuff and it would be between 4000-5000lbs. what do you think?
I'd be amazed if all the ICE stuff weighs more than 300 lbs. And, I
don't think any Subaru could carry 5000 lbs.
> Are there any good books to read that would help me with more of
> the standard planing that way i can keep from crowding the list
> with stupid questions thanks a bunch brian
First, there are no stupid questions; only stupid answers. Ask away!
On book, look at "Convert It" by Mike Brown and Shari Prange, and "Build
Your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
overcall tells you to charge to 2 volts per cell.
If you use a 180 volt cutoff for the controller, you can put 90 cells in the
truck.
11 each 8 cell batteries will give you 88 cells to stay under the limit.
12 each 7 cell batteries will give you 84 cells to stay under the limit. You
might get 13 batteries into the truck to get 91 cells. The voltage will be
182 volts at end of charge using the EverCell limits.
This is as far as I would go with 200 volt MOSFETs in a controller. Other
people might be braver and run it closer to the limit.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dodson Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: What 156V controllers are available?
> I have a truck conversion. It has 144v of lead acid batteries and a 156V
> DCP. In a year are so, when the floodies die, I plan to upgrade to NiZn.
I
> would like to carry as much zinc as possible in a single string.
>
> If the 156V limit of the controller is based on the maximum voltage of the
> lead pack being greater than the 156V nominal, what would be the maximum
> nominal amount of NiZn batteries? Would the nominal voltage of the NiZn
> pack be 156V or slightly more or less?
>
> Does it make a difference if an interlock keeps the controller from being
> turned on during the charge cycle?
>
>
>
>
> > For those who might be mystified as to why 156V is a typical cutoff
> > point for controllers, I believe it's because that nominal voltage can
> > go to something just under 200V during charging. 200V is a typical
> > ceiling for power silicon. Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please set me straight if I am killing my batteries...
I got the new batteries installed in the D - 1280 lbs of
US-250HC. Had to brace the trunk, which was sagging a bit under
the weight of 5 of the big guys. Put the doors back on and spent
some time adjusting them. I figured that it was about time I
hooked up the parking brake. I paid for my policy of never
putting off till tomorrow that which can wait till the next day.
I had to take apart the whole dash just to get enough access to
hook up the cable. Jeesh. Then it was reaching into
difficult-to-access areas to adjust the calipers. That should
have been done long ago, before the steering rack, hydraulic
pump, controller and batteries went in. The headlights are wired
kinda strange on this car. I thought it was something I did but
it was jsut another example of French engineering: there are two
bulbs in each of the low beam lights, and one bulb in each of the
high beams. One of the low beam lights comes on with the high
beams, the other comes on when the high beams are off. It's like
there are 4 high beams. Oh well. Time for a test drive.
Gisele and I belted up and I turned the key. The motor fan came
on, the "drive power" light came on and so did the friendly green
"Canadian Electric Vehicles" light. I touched the pedal and she
slowly crept out of the garage. "The suspension didn't come
up!", said Gisele. Oh, ok, turn on the pump switch. Must be
nervous. So a few 10's of seconds of pump clatter and we're on
our way in second gear.
It was gray and cold, not a very pleasant first day of summer.
There was just a slight drizzle, but enough that I had to
occasionally turn on the newly installed wipers. I turned off
the pump so I could hear the motor and tranny wind up. 3rd gear,
it's all right, 4th gear, hang on tight. Faster, faster...
At 50-55 mph wind noise was terrible, especially at the roof
seam; I had not installed the gasket, planning to wait until the
final paint job. The roof is fiberglass, held on with screws.
Also, there is not rubber seal on the bottoms of the doors, and
of course, no carpets. The fresh air ducts are not connected,
that way I can smell any smoke... But it's mine and it works.
We even passed a cop going the other way, who luckily didn't stop
us because I haven't got the insurance yet. Handling is crisp and
sure. Braking is awesome. And no smoke.
I tried to keep the acceleration down somewhat, but the EV-Dash
did report a 450 amp surge with a voltage sag to 74 volts (for
one second). Yikes. The next trip I set up EV-Dash to beep at
me at 300 amps. Pretty cool program. Thanks Pete Ohler!! (One
of my Grade 8 teachers was named Pete Ohler. He was place kicker
for the BC Lions CFL football team. Won the Grey Cup for the
Lions by faking a field goal attempt and throwing a pass. At
least that's what I remember).
When I got back I had used 3.92 KWh on the e-meter for 12.5
miles. That's about 315 watt-hours/mile. I'm hoping it will be
better once I get the rest of the body work on (ie, the bottom
half of the nose and a proper belly pan). I'm also hoping that
things will improve when I get more used to the characteristics
of the sepex system.
These batteries are supposed to give 170 Ah at the 1 hour rate
(275 at 20 hour rate). I took out about 45 Ah.
My question: How much should I baby these batteries and for how
long? Is 300 amp acceleration ok? Is it more important to keep
acceleration down or total draws down during the break in period?
Mike Hoskinson
-ev grin slowly developing on his skeptical face.
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--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
> > Kostov are good motors right? Are they better then Advanced DC?
>
> There's nothing "advanced" about Kostov motors, which are made in
> Bulgaria. The same is true for Advanced DC -- Tom Edison would have
> completely recognized both of them.
Kostov has interpoles to keep the magnetics in line but has smaller brushes.
The Advanced DC has bigger brushes to handle the arcing caused by the
magnetic misalignment at high current.
Operating either within their ratings gives good service.
I don't remember which one had the big fan in it (that was designed for low
RPM use) that turns into a big air brake at high RPMs. If you need or want
to operate the motor at high RPMs, use an external fan to cut your losses.
> > I'm going to use a Subaru GL not sure if sedan or wagon.
>
> > I've figured out that I can load about 20-30 batteries in it (with
> > some subframes and strenthening)
Try loading 20 to 30 batteries into the donor car and drive it around with
that much weight in it. I doubt that you will like the handling or braking.
One other point: I have been handling batteries for well over 10 years. At
first they were 100% flooded batteries, but over the years, that number has
fallen to 5% flooded (and 95% AGM or Gel) batteries. I have come to
thoroughly detest working around flooded batteries. You would be well
advised to design the car for sealed batteries from the beginning and not
have to deal with the corrosion and watering that are inevitable during the
lifetime of a set of batteries.
One last point: Batteries don't die. They are killed. Do your best to avoid
treatment that kills the batteries. You will find a wealth of ideas on how
to kill them from the people on this list. Don't kill them early.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I am still trying to wrap my head around regenerative brakeing. Does
the majority of the energy for regenerative brakeing come from the
induction in the motor or the back emf created? if it is purely backemf
then what are interpoles for and how does a SRM motor give regen. If it
is purely generated voltage, does the BLDC motor have a distinct
advantage in regen? articles like
http://www.etvi.org/High_Tech/New_Electric_HiTech_right.html seem to
indicate that regenerative brakeing can create voltages and currents
that can exceed MOSFET ratings and destroy the MOSFETs. hmmmm
So... It gets shoved back into the controller, cause the back emf is
greater than the apparent controller voltage (which is from the buck
converter made from the chopper and the motor windings???)
so the lower the pulse width the greater the difference in winding
voltage and the greater the current, but without much of a pulse width,
how does it get to the battery.
I am so confused.
If I create a 2 stage controller with optimized first stage to set
voltage and smaller silicon h-bridges, will regen still find it's way
back to the battery?
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> Joe-
>
> When you talk about the new power silicon devices, what are you
> referring to? Decent 500V rated 'FETs or low VCEsat IGBTs or something else?
>
> Seth
>
Yea both. 500 volt Fets, LOTS can be done with these.
Igs that switch, also many new angles can be used.
expect Ac drives that can do 240 VAC mains, or 400 VDC battery packs
that use FETs and about 50Khz or better PWM ranges. Smaller magnetics,
and smaller caps.
And we certainly need both!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct.
It is difficult to get a handle on it since you are trying to do it with so
many types of motors running around in your head.
Try to think of only one type of motor at a time.
PM and shunt motors are the easiest.
SEPEX and wound rotor AC are the next easiest.
BLDC is the next easiest.
Series wound starts getting nasty.
Squirrel Cage induction is tougher yet.
I don't know where SRM fits yet.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:49 PM
Subject: regenerative brakeing
> I am still trying to wrap my head around regenerative brakeing. Does
> the majority of the energy for regenerative brakeing come from the
> induction in the motor or the back emf created? if it is purely backemf
> then what are interpoles for and how does a SRM motor give regen. If it
> is purely generated voltage, does the BLDC motor have a distinct
> advantage in regen? articles like
> http://www.etvi.org/High_Tech/New_Electric_HiTech_right.html seem to
> indicate that regenerative brakeing can create voltages and currents
> that can exceed MOSFET ratings and destroy the MOSFETs. hmmmm
>
> So... It gets shoved back into the controller, cause the back emf is
> greater than the apparent controller voltage (which is from the buck
> converter made from the chopper and the motor windings???)
>
> so the lower the pulse width the greater the difference in winding
> voltage and the greater the current, but without much of a pulse width,
> how does it get to the battery.
>
> I am so confused.
>
> If I create a 2 stage controller with optimized first stage to set
> voltage and smaller silicon h-bridges, will regen still find it's way
> back to the battery?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> i guess what your all saying is that regen with dc is not that fesable
> or worth the time, money, ect.
That's my feelings , keep it simple .
> i guess i also need to do more research into components from what people
> have said kostov are good motors right? are they better then advanced
> DC?
Your doing the research now . Don't let the "more research " keep you from
doing somthing . Look what others are doing now , you see a lot of the same
stuff.
Kostov or 9" , 9" net gain or ADC , This is where the "hair spliting "
come's
in . I have one of each right now in the 3 EV's at my house but as I'm not
pushing them to there limite they all seem good. I would take the net gain
over the ADC as it has bigger brushes ,highter heat rateing and the same
price.
> if there is a place on the net to find this info that would be awsome.
> kinda like a product review.
Your there now :-)
> here is what my plans are let me know what you think.
Now we're talking
> im going to use a subaru GL not shure if sedan or wagon.
I'll be looking for this car , is there one in the album?
> ive figured out that i can load about 20-30 batteries in it(with some
> subframes and strenthening)
How far do you need to go ? That's a lot of batteriey.
> im figureing on useing the biggest motor i can afford that weights under
> 200lbs. that way whatever motor i have dosnt have to work as hard as if
> i had used an 8in or somthing like that.
and the 8 is not some much cheaper/ Have you riden in a conversion , if so
what kind>?
> i dont know what kind of batteries are good i do want 6volt thought.
I use mostly 6 v golf cart batteries , but I'm also just getting from point
a to b , and don't drive over 60 mph/ . I do have some plans for 12v so I
can buy new tires more often. :-)
im
> also thinking of useing a honda ICE generator that is made for welding
> that puts out somthing like 100amps or so for extended travil.
the voltage will be to low if its a welder. 20 to 30 would be 120/180v , 20
is a good number to start with
> the subaru wights in at about 2500(-ice would be 2000)then add all the
> stuff and it would be between 4000-5000lbs. what do you think.?
well that will depend on the batteries which will depend on how far/how fast
ect.I would think less that 4K
> one last question. is there any good books to read that would help me
> with more of the standard planing that way i can keep from crowding the
> list with stupid questions thanks a bunch brian
Yes there are
The new electric vichiles by Michael Heckleman is one that comes to mind,
it's been out for a while
but has lots of good stuff . It's where I saw the plans for the BMS I'm
using now.
There not stupid questions and thinking about converting your car to
electric is pritty smart I'd say.
SteveClunn
www.grassrootsev.com
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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:18 AM 06/21/2003 -0700, you wrote:
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> For people living in an apt, it is nearly impossible to own an
> EV, by virtue of the fact that many apt managers make it nearly
> impossible to set up charging.
I live in an apartment and rented an optional garage for my EV - works
great but limits me to 110 for sure.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:31 PM 06/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
You missed the part where you don't stay at the campgrounds for camping
with an RV or anything. You just use the campground as a charging station
since you know they have higher power electrical outlets available right
next to where you park the car. Campgrounds are abundant near highways
and are easy to find.
OK, that makes sense - but then where do you sleep? You charge for hours,
presumably at night, and you have no car to take you to a motel. A tent and
sleeping bag? Or do we love our EV's so much we will sleep in them? By the
light of the charge controller... :)
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of charger are you considering?
A PFC-50 will charge a 156 volt string of Optimas to 80% in about half an
hour or a 156 volt string of T105s in 90 minutes when running off a 14-50.
Two chargers at once will cut the time by about a third.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:21 PM
Subject: RE: Charging at campgrounds
> At 09:31 PM 06/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >You missed the part where you don't stay at the campgrounds for camping
> >with an RV or anything. You just use the campground as a charging station
> >since you know they have higher power electrical outlets available right
> >next to where you park the car. Campgrounds are abundant near highways
> >and are easy to find.
>
> OK, that makes sense - but then where do you sleep? You charge for hours,
> presumably at night, and you have no car to take you to a motel. A tent
and
> sleeping bag? Or do we love our EV's so much we will sleep in them? By the
> light of the charge controller... :)
>
> brad
>
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
100 amps of 120 VAC is a pretty big generator. Where are you planning on
putting it while you use it?
If it is 100 amps of welding current, then the generator is rather small
compared to the energy usage of the car on the road and will make little
difference in range on the freeway. Where do you plan on putting it in your
wagon or sedan?
If you plan on pulling the generator on a trailer, please talk to someone
who has done it. What sounds good in theory many times comes up short during
implementation.
Check out http://brucedp02b.tripod.com/woodburn02/020901-094.jpg for how
Sheer towed his generator. Talk to him about the aerodynamic drag of the
trailer.
If you look at http://brucedp02b.tripod.com/woodburn02/020901-046.jpg
(or closer http://brucedp02b.tripod.com/woodburn02/020901-047.jpg) there is
another implementation. Note: the trailer in the second photo is the front
third of a Rabbit chassis.
If your car uses 300 watt hours per mile, then a 3000 watt generator will
allow you to drive it 10 miles per hour without using power out of your
batteries. If you are driving 30 mph then 33% of the power will come out of
your generator and 67% out of your batteries. If you have a 20 mile pack,
then the generator will extend your range by about ten miles assuming
(wrongly) that the trailer does not add to the power requirements.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
> im
> > also thinking of useing a honda ICE generator that is made for welding
> > that puts out somthing like 100amps or so for extended travil.
> the voltage will be to low if its a welder. 20 to 30 would be 120/180v ,
20
> is a good number to start with
--- End Message ---
