EV Digest 2879
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Rice?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Kinetic Generator Motors
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Specific ideas for RAV4 PHEV retrofit
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Power in FDK for the Power of DC race
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LiIon conclusions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) SOT: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid
Prototypes)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Specific ideas for RAV4 PHEV retrofit
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Seattle EV A. EV-ent
by "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Specific ideas for RAV4 PHEV retrofit
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In HybridPrototypes)
by "Leonard Tramiel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) MB80 cycling
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery Cycler project
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In
HybridPrototypes)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Adventures of Mike the Menace and the Electric D (long)
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Or maybe they don't have 51kW into the controller, and the controller/
motor is more efficient than a grassroots EV, so the power to the wheels
is not too bad?. Maybe it is more like 120A peak?
I also hear that supercaps and Li-Ion batteries can be manufactured on
the same line. One is all energy, one is all power. So there is probably
a package/ chemistry that is "just right" that can come down that line
that can do just what a company like Sony wants.
These two combined, and adding computer control to regulate battery
abuse and lots of money for the project might be the key.
And Japanese vs other (Taiwanese/Chinese) battery manufacure might have
something to do with it. I could tell you stories about sourcing
headaches from Taiwanese battery suppliers.
Seth
The Levine Family wrote:
>
> <<...how Sony can put LiIP batts.
> in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
> grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
> draw must still be in excess of
> VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
> Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop. Yeah,
> I'm comparing PbA vs. LiP, so it's not accurate b/c of
> internal resistance of the batteries, but the fact
> remains: the Li batts. I'm hearing about (FIVE YEARS
> after Sony released theirs) are pretty cruddy compared
> to what Sony has put out at an admittedly exorbitant
> price.
> Any explanations?>>
>
> Maybe expensive Japanese-made Li cells are just better than cheap
> Chinese-made ones?
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that their development costs are roughly correct - but I think their
buisness model is wrong...
Instead of building 10 or 20 cars, where the full brunt of the development cost
goes to each buyer, they should be building 200 cars.
Marketing is the most important part in selling those cars, but I still think
they haven't got this side of things sorted out - they're trying to sell
ordinary cars for Ferrari money. I haven't seen any kind of artist scribble of
what this car is supposed to look like, just AC Propulsions nasty looking VW
conversion (VW's fault - not theirs). If it looked like a T-Zero I might be
more convinced.
If you build an EV with 120 miles range (ignore the hybrid aspect for now, this
just makes things more complex and expensive) and Ferrari F40 performance (at
least up to 100 mph), you can justify a high price tag - $60000 say.
People would buy them for track days and commuting to work (in the UK at least
- the track day car market is booming - and everyone wants something a little
different). It would be a second car - but still affordable enough (sort of!)
I'm fully aware that people here could do a conversion, very proffesionally, of
a second hand vehicle for a quarter of that amount. The problem is, that these
are not new cars for the average consumer to buy with a guarantee, and they're
not designed for an electric drivetrain. We should be taking advantage of the
design posibilities that EV's hand out to us.
Cars with their batteries mounted between a sandwich floor - giving superb
stiff chassis' and a very low polar moment of inertia. Conversions tend to
utilise the top of the engine bays and the boot floor / fuel tank space. This
is great for conversions of saloon cars - but doesn't create a great handling
car (don't have a pop at me! I simply mean that the cars would handle a lot
better if the batteries were mounted in the centre of the vehicle, as low as
possible).
While it's true to say you can buy off the shelf components, these won't be
ideal, they will be a compromise. So you go to the manufacturers of those
components - tell them what you need and let them make those components for you
(just as happens in the rest of the automotive industry - if you need an
ignition system or ABS - off you go to Bosch and they have a system prepared
and in production for your size and mass of vehicle)
This was only going to be a short post!
You can run any diesel engine on vegetable oil, just add a little white spirit
(just a few ml per litre) to reduce the viscosity so that the fuel pump doesn't
burn out, and the fuel atomises properly. No adjustments are needed. Just
remember to strain out the chips - you don't want clogged injectors!
This engine will obviously still produce CO2, which is a greenhouse gas, but at
least it's not wasted fuel, and it's going to be around 35% efficient with it.
Does anyone have any idea how efficient the best generators are? (the
electrical side - not the ICE side) My guess would be 80% minimum, so driven by
a diesel of around 35% efficiency, that's still 29% overall, which is better
than most petrol engines manage running at optimum efficieny all day long...
which they don't... thanks for letting me get that off my chest :^D
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> > Cool, can I get a Job? Oh yeah, they aren't looking for Techs and
> > Engineers yet, just marketing folks.
> >
>
> I don't know. Can you do the work? Have you designed, from scratch, a
> mutli-power sourced automotive drive system?
>From Scratch? Nope, all my designs have been based on working components
and subsystems.
> This isn't trivial and it
> involved a lot more than just assembling existing parts. I don't know the
> people on this list. I wouldn't be surprised that someone has the relevant
> skills. Maybe you do Peter.
Probably not (me).
> I was trying to start a realistic discussion of the reasonable costs
> involved. If we never get past sarcasm then I guess that isn't going to
> work.
FWIW There have been many really good ideas discussed on this list on
how to build/standardize EV related projects. Very few ever actually
get built. Too much discussion and not enough building.
That's my main beef here. CalCars has a great idea, one that has been
discussed on this list numerous times. They have access to proven
designs. They've been around for what a year now? What actual work
have they done toward actually building vehicles?
I'm concerned because it appears (to me) that they are spending all of
their time and money on raising more money and not working on designs.
I'll admit, however, that I know nothing about running a business like
this.
I do know that I will probably have my HEV 40 running in the next 6
months. It's no where near as sophisticated as what they (probably)
will build, but then I'm doing it for about 10% of the cost that they
are talking about.
>
> If you have a better estimate, even better if it is based on some real-life
> experience I'd love to read it.
Late model RAV4 AWD $15,000
Siemens AC drive system
plus cables, etc. $10,000
700 lbs of NiCads $10,000(?)
Geo Metro Engine/tranny $ 5,000
Misc, adapters, parts $10,000
Chargers, computers, etc $10,000
pay me for 6 months work $40,000 (wink, wink)
Total $100,000
Hook the AC drive to rear wheels via a 6 or 7:1 reduction (preferably
transverse mounted to avoid hypoid gears)
Hook the Metro engine to the front wheels. Add a 240V generator head to
the engine, with an electric clutch, for series hybrid operation.
Range in EV mode would be 40+ miles
I have, of course, padded my estimates. Plus you can get a thousand or
so back for selling off the RAV4 ICE.
p.s. My personal preference would be to use something like a VW indirect
injection diesel engine modified to run on straight vegetable oil, which
is recycled from fast food joints, etc. Much lower emissions, no
greenhouse gas issues, no wasting of precious dead dinosaurs.
__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, these are Northrop-Grumman oil cooled AC
induction motors. The controls are also oil cooled.
Cliff mentioned they were Westinghouse motors.
I know Westinghouse was making the control at some
point because I rode in an Epic with their control
at Chryslers proving grounds in Auburn Hills, MI.
It's hard to say how these company names changed
since there has been so many mergers and aquisitions.
I would be very grateful to get a contact name at
Satcon.
Thanks,
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- BORTEL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod,
> These should be the motors built by
> Westinghouse/Northrop-Grumman/Satcon. If
> they are, I can get you a contact at Satcon for the
> information you need.
> Chrysler and Satcon were both giving their left over
> motors & controls away
> to schools in the last year.
> Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:37 AM
> Subject: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
>
>
> > This message was sent by Bob and I thought
> > the list would be interested to know that the
> > formula lightning electrics will be racing
> > in Mansfield, OH on July 4.
> > P.s. Does anybody have speed torque curves for
> > the AC induction motors used in the Epic Minivan?
> > Thanks,
> > Rod
> >
> > Hi Rod,
> > I had 3 email addresses for you, didn't know which
> one
> > to use, so I
> > sent
> > this to all three. Let me know which one to use.
> >
> > I just supplied Ohio University (Athens Ohio) with
> a
> > 160 KW controller
> > for
> > their Formula Lighting race car. The school has 5
> of
> > the motor out of
> > EPIC
> > minivans. We successfully ran no load last week.
> We
> > plan on running
> > Chassis
> > Dyno test next week. Do you have any of the
> numbers or
> > curves on this
> > motor
> > that we can use to compare our test results
> against.
> >
> > Also, if your interested, the Formula lighting
> cars
> > are racing at
> > Mansfield
> > Speedway on July 4th.
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Bob Gruenwald
> > Electric MotorSports
> > 2072 Greenpine Dr
> > Cincinnati, OH 45231
> > Phone 513-851-3748
> > Fax 775-201-1362
> > Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Web www.fluxvector.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I toyed around with this idea, but I rejected it because I didn't want my
car sitting that long in a discharged state. On a good day, I get off work
at 4:00 pm, on the average day, I get off at 5:30 and there are some days I
don't get off until after 6:00. Even so, and with a 30 minute drive home
that means at LEAST a 2 hour delay before my car starts to charge, and maybe
as much as 4 1/2 hours. Would it not do harm to my batteries (Flooded golf
cart) to sit at ~70% soc for 2-5 hours waiting to be charged?
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Brad Waddell
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Even better, don't turn the
>charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and Nintendo games
>are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome your
>feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on 9pm
until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug in
anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can handle
though.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just about to step in and make a case in support of Trinity, but then
realized that we aren't talking about Trinity Flywheel.
Trinity Flywheel in the bay area has been a serious contender in the
flywheel energy storage business with real world applications including
backup generation for UPS applications. It's founder, Richard Post of LL
Labs was the premier leader in modern high energy flywheel development with
a major feature article in Scientific American on flywheels, in I think,
1973. Trinity Flywheel http://www.afstrinity.com/, Unique Mobility, Optimal
Energy Systems, US Flywheel, Active Power, Satcon and American Flywheel (now
merged w/Trinity Flywheel) are some of the names of flywheel energy storage
or electromechanical battery developers, most of which are still
around---but none of which, sadly, are yet piercing the EV power supply
market. This, despite promises 10 years ago that we were within 2 years or
so of realizing mobile flywheel kinetic energy storage.
But, clearly from looking at its web pages, Trinity Motors is not at all
Trinity Flywheel. It's sad that Trinity Motors would choose a name so close
to Trinity Flywheel which may one day indeed supply EMBs for automobiles.
So I'm not going to step in to support Trinity Motors....as Rosanna
Rosannadanna would say, "never mind".
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman writes:
>
> Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
> components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a DC
> Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways.
David,
Check with evparts (http://www.evparts.com). They should be able to order
a custom gauge from Westach for you. I had them build one for an earlier
incarnation of my Prizm that was a dual movement meter (volts and amps)
with the amps reading 100-0-500, for use with my Zapi H2 regen controller.
(The gauge will be for sale soon if you're interested.)
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal and "The Levine Family"
These specific ideas for RAV4 are helpful, and we'll look at all those,
perhaps get back to you when we're ready to address them systematically.
One more FYI: "CalCars has been spending all their time and money on
raising more money"
CalCars to date has raised only a minimal amount from Charter Sponsors, and
has spent none of it.
This idea started taking shape two years ago, and in July 2002 we formally
founded the organization. During that time, for the work of getting people
involved and defining starting points, I've paid all ongoing minimal
operating expenses (website, conferences, etc.) from my own not-very deep
pockets. And all work, with the exception of a few hours from 2
consultants has been volunteer.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
>
>Late model RAV4 AWD $15,000
>Siemens AC drive system
> plus cables, etc. $10,000
>700 lbs of NiCads $10,000(?)
>Geo Metro Engine/tranny $ 5,000
>Misc, adapters, parts $10,000
>Chargers, computers, etc $10,000
>pay me for 6 months work $40,000 (wink, wink)
>Total $100,000
>
>Hook the AC drive to rear wheels via a 6 or 7:1 reduction
(preferably
>transverse mounted to avoid hypoid gears)
>
>Hook the Metro engine to the front wheels. Add a 240V generator
head to the
>engine, with an electric clutch, for series hybrid operation.
>
Why?
You are already coupled through the road. You are using a Siemens
AC Drive which has regen capability, just put a small regen signal
to it and use the ICE to propel the vehicle and recharge the pack
once highway speeds are reached, if needed.
The only concern I would have would be the Metro ICE dry-rotting
from lack of use.
Now, the generator head would be a nice option for use during
power outages, and the emissions would be much much better than a
$500.00 gen-set.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I'd like a sample of the Sony LiP batteries. ;-)
I am certainly not a battery expert, nor do I play one on TV. I can only
observe that there are many variations of the Li based chemistries,
different manufacturers with various levels of R&D and manufacturing
experience. And, as Otmar pointed out, even the same chemistry and
manufacturer can design batteries to trade off high power, long life, or
high energy. So which one did they choose?
A lot of these batteries look good on paper. However, until we get them in
the lab or on the racetrack / highway, we really can't tell what their
strong and weak properties are.
For a given battery, all we can do is understand them and then adjust our
usage to maximize what we care about most, trading off some other
properties.
I have rented the Honda EVplus, the EV1, and an Insight from EV rentals, but
I did not have a chance to rent the Altima that had Li based batteries.
However, I expect that when you have a larger vehicle like a truck or van,
you can put in enough batteries of any type and have enough power. However,
with a small car one has to be more careful.
Gary
=========================
Bob Bath wrote:
I am curious however, how Sony can put LiIP batts.
in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
draw must still be in excess of
VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop. Yeah,
I'm comparing PbA vs. LiP, so it's not accurate b/c of
internal resistance of the batteries, but the fact
remains: the Li batts. I'm hearing about (FIVE YEARS
after Sony released theirs) are pretty cruddy compared
to what Sony has put out at an admittedly exorbitant
price.
Any explanations?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, part of the problem is solved (I hope)
Dave over at Battery Warehouse in Frederick MD has agreed to let me drop by
and charge. According to him he has a "big 3 prong 220 outlet" that should
be enough to feed the MagneCharger. The only problem is he's open from 10am
to noon on Sunday, so I can only use it as a charge-up location. And this
would put me at the Power of DC by 1pm with low batteries and in need of a
little charge for awhile.
Bleah. Probably wouldn't get off the line till 2pm. Still bless their
hearts.
This is going to be close. According to Mapquest it's a 45.17 mile drive
from Relay to FDK. Including some hills. I think if I am going to do this I
will need *maximum* efficiency. My max distance so far has been 44 miles and
according to the E-meter I had just gone into the red flashing mode (20%
power remaining)
So what's the best way to do this? 38 miles of the drive is going to be on
I-70, a two lane each direction highway with a 70mph speed limit. Drive
*really* slow? How slow?
And how low can I take the batteries volt and current-wise? These are new
batteries, and hopefully it will be a warm dry morning. If it's raining
range will be reduced.
I'm going to have to build a serious extension cord here. What is the best
way to build one from the MagneCharger, and what kind of plugs should I have
at the end? I'm thinking carry a screwdriver, some 8 gauge romex, and about
as many plugs as I can find at Home Despot.
And I need to figure out a way to get back to Relay; the Battery place
closes at noon.
Thoughts?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Gary Graunke wrote:
> I have rented the Honda EVplus, the EV1, and an Insight from EV rentals, but
> I did not have a chance to rent the Altima that had Li based batteries.
Gary, it was a car called the 'Altra', not the more familiar 'Altima'. There are only
two
Nissan Altras in existence, so you will not ever have the chance to rent one. I drove
one
of the two way back in '97 at EVS 14 in Orlando. It was indeed, powered by a pack of
Sony-made LiIon batteries. Unlike some of the other small EVs of the time, the car was
fairly large and had very strong acceleration, plus a 120 mile claimed range per
charge.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You can run any diesel engine on vegetable oil, just add a little white spirit
> (just a few ml per litre) to reduce the viscosity so that the fuel pump doesn't
> burn out, and the fuel atomises properly. No adjustments are needed. Just
> remember to strain out the chips - you don't want clogged injectors!
Hmm interesting, what is "white spirit"? It might go under a different
name on this side of the pond ( like Paraffin / Kerosene)
>
> This engine will obviously still produce CO2, which is a greenhouse gas, but at
> least it's not wasted fuel, and it's going to be around 35% efficient with it.
>
Yes, but the CO2 came out of the atmosphere in the first place (when you
grew the plants to produce the oil) so it doesn't add any extra CO2 to
the equation.
> Does anyone have any idea how efficient the best generators are? (the
> electrical side - not the ICE side) My guess would be 80% minimum, so driven by
> a diesel of around 35% efficiency, that's still 29% overall, which is better
> than most petrol engines manage running at optimum efficieny all day long...
> which they don't... thanks for letting me get that off my chest :^D
About the same as the best motors. At the right power point, a Lemco
can produce electricity at about 92%. High efficiency BLDC motors can
produce in the high 90's, though you'll loose 0.5% or so rectifying it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2-5 hours? No.
2-5 days might hurt if you do it routinely, but not a couple hours.
Most folks leave their vehicles partially discharged for 8+ hours while
they are at work.
On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 06:05, James Jarrett wrote:
> I toyed around with this idea, but I rejected it because I didn't want my
> car sitting that long in a discharged state. On a good day, I get off work
> at 4:00 pm, on the average day, I get off at 5:30 and there are some days I
> don't get off until after 6:00. Even so, and with a 30 minute drive home
> that means at LEAST a 2 hour delay before my car starts to charge, and maybe
> as much as 4 1/2 hours. Would it not do harm to my batteries (Flooded golf
> cart) to sit at ~70% soc for 2-5 hours waiting to be charged?
>
> James
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Brad Waddell
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:17 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
>
>
> At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >Even better, don't turn the
> >charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and Nintendo games
> >are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome your
> >feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
>
> I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on 9pm
> until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug in
> anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can handle
> though.
>
> brad
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:10 AM 6/25/2003 -0700, Felix Kramer wrote:
One more FYI: "CalCars has been spending all their time and money on
raising more money"
CalCars to date has raised only a minimal amount from Charter Sponsors,
and has spent none of it.
This idea started taking shape two years ago, and in July 2002 we formally
founded the organization. During that time, for the work of getting people
involved and defining starting points, I've paid all ongoing minimal
operating expenses (website, conferences, etc.) from my own not-very deep
pockets. And all work, with the exception of a few hours from 2
consultants has been volunteer.
Nice, but, other than a web page, what HAVE you done? The organization has
been around for a year, and there doesn't seem to be any real info on the
web page. It's hard to get interested/excited about a business that
doesn't seem to have any products, plans, or even designs. I'm REALLY
hoping it's more than pie-in-the-sky dreams.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ohhhhh If I had time enough, I would like to attend each and every
EVent west of the
Mississippi....
Missed VEVA... will TRY for OEVA......
Seattle is THIS weekend. We are piggy-backing on one of the biggest
Street Show Rod and
Custom car shows in the North West. The Greenwood/Phinney Ridge Custom
Car show.
It takes up both sides of over a MILE of Greenwood Ave. in north
Seattle. ( North of the
Woodland Park Zoo ) The crowds ar phenomenal ! Especially in good
weather. Rodric's
Ford EV Roadster will be the talk of the town I am sure. We will have a
GEM nev there too.
and our normal eclectic collection of home built conversions, and drag
bikes.
For those NOT on the SEVA mailing list, but have time and inclination.
SEVA will pay
$15. of the $20 entrance fee, if any one out of town wishes to show up.
We are rondevouing (sp)
at 59th and Greenwood Av. at 8 am. to parade to the entrance together
by 8:30 Coffee and
donuts included.
The SHOW is FREE to the public to wonder up and down the Ave. and gaulk
at all the beautiful
iron, and horsepower, AND now also KILLOWATTS !!
See Ya-All there.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
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On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 07:10, Felix Kramer wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal and "The Levine Family"
> These specific ideas for RAV4 are helpful, and we'll look at all those,
> perhaps get back to you when we're ready to address them systematically.
>
> One more FYI: "CalCars has been spending all their time and money on
> raising more money"
> CalCars to date has raised only a minimal amount from Charter Sponsors, and
> has spent none of it.
My apologies. However, I was talking about appearances and CalCars
doesn't 'appear' to be making any progress. As I said, I know nothing
about running a company like this.
I do know (from past observations) that the longer someone spends
discussing something, the less likely they are to actually build it.
I (personally) don't see the need for a lot of R&D. Pick a proven
design from one of the universities, etc. and go from there.
The Universities often spend a ton of money on their vehicles because a)
they can, and b) they are trying for the ultimate efficiency, range,
etc. You can save a bundle by sacrificing 5-10% on these goals. For
example, if you can't get LIon that will work cheap enough, then go with
NiMH or NiCad. Personally I like NiCad because, even though they have a
lower energy density, they will out live the vehicle.
You might find enough Ed Bagley Jrs to pay $150,000 for a vehicle, but I
think that will take a long time. You might be more effective lowering
the "buy in" price and going for quantity rather than quality.
Build HEV 40s that don't get significantly better mileage when the gas
engines running and let people see how seldom they need to turn it on.
Don't spend a fortune making it completely computer controlled. Make it
two separate systems, and have the operator switch from gas to electric
manually. Use an automatic tranny on the gas engine with a floor
mounted shifter. At the neutral position have a manual lockout that
let's them move the shifter to the right to engage the EV portion.
Drive/neutral/reverse with neutral having a manual lockout to bring it
back to the Gas side. Use either zero or limited integration between
the two. Possibly just Regen when in gas mode and low on charge and a
button for electric "turbo" boost.
Follow Einstein's advice; make it as simple as possible, but no
simpler. The fewer integrated features, the fewer things to go wrong.
Start building cars.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 8:18 AM
Subject: SOT: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In
HybridPrototypes)
> Yes, but the CO2 came out of the atmosphere in the first place (when you
> grew the plants to produce the oil) so it doesn't add any extra CO2 to
> the equation.
But the machines to plant, tend and harvest the crop use fuel. I read
somewhere that they use more than the crops produce.
-Leonard
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> Could you provide a more objective description of it, and how it
>> works?
Russ Kaufmann wrote:
> Well, Lee, I gotta hand it to 'ya. You're the one that got me started
> on the Russco Charger. And it was on this List, too. So, good things
> do happen!
Thank you! Glad to be of help. It is always gratifying when someone
takes the information and uses it to actually build something, make it
work, and get it on the market!
> Start with a Bad Boy Charger... 120 VAC into a full wave bridge...
> inductor in series with the AC input lowers charging current to
> an amp or two, good for finishing current... AC capacitor across
> input to the full wave bridge, charging current will be high...
> if capacitor value were varied automatically and electronically,
> the charging current could be controlled... power factor in the
> 0.9 range. And that's the basis of the Russco charger.
>
> TRIAC in series with the capacitor... [phase control it to regulate
> its effective capacitance to control charging voltage and current]
Very slick! I like it! It sounds like a very effective technique for
greatly improving the power factor without a lot of extra complexity.
The 1974 "IR SCR Applications Handbook" describes exactly this technique
in several applications for transformer-isolated power supplies. They
put the triac and capacitor in the transformer secondary, so they could
step the voltage up (and current down), allowing use of smaller
capacitors and triacs. The transformer also gave them an isolated
output, of course.
There are older chargers that did this with multiple capacitors switched
by relays; one I saw from the 1960's had 2 capacitors and relays that
switched them in/out and in series/parallel. It was done for power
factor control.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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> >Hook the Metro engine to the front wheels. Add a 240V generator
> head to the
> >engine, with an electric clutch, for series hybrid operation.
> >
>
> Why?
I should have pointed out that it's just an option, not a requirement.
For maximum ICE efficiency you need a small ICE. This might not have
the power to climb a long 7%+ grade (especially if you are loaded down
or towing), so you'd need to supplement it with the E-motor. If your
batteries run out before the top, you're stuck. With the series hybrid
add on, you can pull over and use the ICE to recharge the pack until you
have enough energy to finish the climb.
If you don't foresee getting into this situation, don't get this option.
> The only concern I would have would be the Metro ICE dry-rotting
> from lack of use.
Yeah, another reason I like the indirect injection diesel. Very little
to go wrong or rot out. Of course you could always add something like
what they use to keep auto AirCon from drying out during the winter, and
have the vehicle automatically cycle the ICE periodically.
Realistically this will probably not be a problem. Most folks drive
more than 40 miles in one day at least once every month or two.
>
> Now, the generator head would be a nice option for use during
> power outages, and the emissions would be much much better than a
> $500.00 gen-set.
That too.
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Well one thing is clear, and that is that these beasts need some
AUTOMATIC cycling before going into the car. "I've got to remember to
go to the garage at 9:26am and flip a switch" doesn't seem to cut it.
Alas, my gorgeous first eBay purchase, a Sorensen 20v/30a programmable
power supply had no brain-- until today. I have spun and stuffed a board
with three relays and a voltage measuring divider. First two power
relays connect the Sorensen or my impressive and growing array of 12
volt bulbs to the batt. (My the bench is bright with all these lights
on...) Third relay sends 12vdc to a pair of pins on the Sorensen to
turn it off. So far, I have discharge and one stage of charge under
automatic control, or will have as soon as I can plug in the now
functioning board and spruce up my software controlling it. Will soon
add the other half of the brain which will adjust the Sorensen to the
reduced amperage charge settings.
So why cycle? As Rich Rudman and Joe Smalley have observed, this
chemistry needs a break in of 10 cycles or so. By departing slightly
from the recommended Evercel regime only for the low amperage finish
charge, I've been able to observe 79Ah of capacity which ain't bad for a
64Ah nameplate. At present, I am following the Evercel 386 minute 11 amp
bulk charge, but adopting the Rudman/Smalley charge at 4amps until the
voltage drops. I'm at seven cycles which has been very arduous in my
pre-Automagic days. I've gotten some feedback that I'm not calculating
internal resistance using heavy enough loads, but I've been consistent
and still haven't seen much of a drop. Finally, Sheer and others have
observed that the heating went away after a break in period. Until
Jameco delivered a LM35 precision Centigrade monitor, I hadn't hooked up
a temp sensor. Many thanks, Lee hart for this tip to the list. All of
us should invest in a LM35, wire the output pin to ground with a 200 ohm
resistor, hook the two remaining leads to the eMeter and be able to
monitor temps. And, ummm, temps are more than ever important since the
batts are still generating a lot of heat even on low amperage discharges
and the weather in CT has just zoomed to 95 degrees F from 60 and I'm
gonna have to dig out those temp compensation tables....7 cycles and
counting (and soon monitoring and controlling automagically, and with
temp inputs).
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David Chapman wrote:
> I have not had much luck finding a DC Ammeter that reads 100-0-100
> amps, IE swings both ways.
If you mean an analog meter, you can usually adjust the "zero" screw to
center the meter, and just make a new scale.
Or, use a DPDT switch to swap the meter leads.
Or, get an inexpensive digital meter; they all read + and -.
Marlin P. Jones <www.mpja.com> has 100amp 50mv shunts and 0-100amp
labelled 50mv analog meters.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Yes, but the CO2 came out of the atmosphere in the first place (when you
> > grew the plants to produce the oil) so it doesn't add any extra CO2 to
> > the equation.
>
> But the machines to plant, tend and harvest the crop use fuel. I read
> somewhere that they use more than the crops produce.
That darn internet, throwing out misinformation again.
Rapeseed oil is probably the simplest to use in a diesel engine,
requiring little (if any) modification. One acre of land will produce
roughly 127 gallons of rapeseed oil. That's at least 10 times as much
as is required to tend/harvest/etc. one acre of land.
Besides, rapeseed (aka Canola oil) is widely used for frying food. The
energy used to harvest it has already been spent, we're just making use
of a waste product. I believe they handle this waste product by burning
it anyway.
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Finally I break some of my own stuff. The night before last I
was out at the cottage working on the D, getting it ready for
its safety check. I checked out the screwball headlight switch
and found that the odd workings of the various headlights (6
bulbs, 2 fixtures) was by design. So ok, lets put in the front
turn signals. I ensured that they were working but was kind of
tired so put off screwing them in. That was a mistake that I
would pay for the next day.
I had taken the car out for a 4 Kw-h run and plugged in the
charger to the 120 volt outlet when I got back. Got tired of
watching the piddly 12.5 amp charge. Hey, I've got the breakers,
receptacle and wire for the soon to be installed 240 volt
circuit, so why not make an extension cord out of it? I wired up
the receptacle, wrapped it with electrical tape, attached the
other end of my 75 feet of #6 cable to the breaker, supported the
breaker end of the heavy cable by a rope slung over a nail, ran
the cable out through the hallway to the garage and plugged
everything in. Flipped on the breaker and presto, where the
PFC-50 had been idling at 12 amps on 120 volt input, it was now
putting out 24 amps. Hey, this is fun. Let's crank this puupy
up! At 45 amps the voltage limit light came on (the emeter
showed only -1 Kw-h) so 45 amps was all the fun I could have.
Still, it gives me a taste for what it could be like when I have
the 50 amp circuit wired up properly. Looking at my shaky
arrangement to take the strain of the heavy cable off the
breaker, I thought that it would be prudent to not do this again
until I have the wires properly run into the box.
Next morning I got up bright and early. It was a glorious day
and I had time for another run before heading in to work. So I
jumped in the car, fired her up and took off on my 13 mile test
run. Sadly, I did not remember the turn signal lights until I
was halfway. By the time I stopped, one of them had fallen off
and disappeared. To add to my morning's cheer, the hydraulic
pump motor would not come back on when I restarted. I had vision
s of my irreplacable light fixture getting run over and crushed
by some suv, so turned around and drove slowly back along my test
run circuit. No luck here, and halfway to the end of the run I
had no power steering. So I headed home and made another search
with the Insight. No luck there either. I'll have to get out
there with a bike or on foot and look in the tall grass.
After work I went back out to see about the pump motor. The
switch and contactor checked out ok, and a spare motor that I
connected came on ok, so I took the motor out to see what the
matter was. Well, looks like there had been a brush fire. I do
recall last week that I had neglected to install the duct that
cooled this motor, and a moderate volume of smoke had vented from
this very site. I took out the brushes. One of them was a nice
rectangle with the end smoothly sculpted to the contour of the
commutator. The other was a misshapen cinder. Ow! As far as I
could see, the commutator was ok, so I just took one of the
brushes out of the spare motor so I wouldn't have to grind down
the mount again. This time I wired the overtemp circuit in
series with my switch and made sure that the duct was in place
before I started out. That motor really does need a fan. Should
not be a surprise, considering that it is passing 1200 watts.
So everything is ok now, except that my nice wrap around turn
signal is still missing. Still have to get the headlights
pointing the right way and put a few more cycles on the pack
before making the 50 km run into town.
I slipped out of work yesterday and got the registration renewed.
The insurance company was good enough to give me 30 days to get
the mandatory saftey check done; I told the guy about the
electric conversion and all he had to say was "Cool". I love
this country!
At the registry office I told the nice lady that I'd like her to
change a couple of things on the registration. First, the model
name was wrong. And could you change the fuel type to electric?
"I don't know", she said, "don't know if there is a code for
that". Try "e", I said. "Oh, cool", she said, when the "e" was
entered and the fuel type came up Electric. That's all there was
to it. I got my ELECTRC vanity license plate assigned to the car
and she handed me the necessary stickers. "Yay!, I said, "Yay!,
Yay!, Yay!"
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
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