EV Digest 2880
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-InHybridPrototypes)
by =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Rice?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kinetic Generator Motors
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Megawatt Motorworks
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Datsun 240Z Battery Placement Musings (a bit lengthly)
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Veggy oil... kinda OT
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) OT: RE: Veggy oil... kinda OT
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Datsun 240Z Battery Placement Musings (a bit lengthly)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) One more observation about THunder-sky LiIons
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Kinetic Generator Motors
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: So What's New ...
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) list processor question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-InHybridPrototypes)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Charging at campgrounds
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: EV icecream truck
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) RE: Charging at campgrounds
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for
Plug-InHybridPrototypes)
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
You can go the cheap easy route buy using a $19 digital volt meter from
Fry's of rat shack and hook it across the shunt and read amps direct in the
millivolt range. For the discharge timer I used a small battery operated
clock (from rat shack) take the battery out and use double side stick tape
to tape wire to one end of the battery so that the clock only runs when the
wires are connected together, I connected a small relay across the load
relay to turn on the clock.
I'm upgrading mine with a Basicstamp "BS2" to control the charging, it's
very important to make sure that the battery is fully charged before you
discharge it, if your testing used batteries then most likely it is
suffering from out of balance, I'm no expert here but I think the best way
is to use a CC,CV,CC algorithm, you can do this with two power supplies, the
first automatically switches from CC to CV and then you watch for the
current to stop dropping and then switch to the second power supply for the
CC for the needed overcharge.
Good luck and keep us informed on you progress.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:04 AM
Subject: Battery Cycler project
> Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
> components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a DC
> Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways. Although I have
> tenatively figured out a way to use a single swing meter by using 2 shunts
> and 4 diodes, I am trying to keep things simple by using one shunt in the
B+
> lead. Any ideas or sources for reasonably priced meters? I could use a
> matching DC volt meter that reads 0-30 V as well. I have tried searching
my
> usual online salvage and surplus sources with little success. Regards,
David
> Chapman.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In those terms it's a good renewable resource - but we should make people plant
a tree (or a square metre of rapeseed!) for every litre they use.
Ultimately the problem boils down to too many people - our consumption rate out
weighs the rate at which the environment can restore the balance. Either people
have to halve the rate at which they produce CO2 - or we need to halve the
number of people :^S
Glad we're making the effort here - just need to convince other people to do
the same...
I've got a bottle of white spirit in front of me - but the label's not
particularly informative - I'm not about to taste it ;^P but I suspect it's
very similar to methylated spirit only without the safety colouring... That
doesn't help much I know! It's used as a paint thinner - nasty stuff
James
While we're so far off topic... Do you have many linseed fields over your side
of the water? There's roughly 4 times as much rapeseed as linseed over here -
but it looks lovely - fields the colour of the sky...
> > Yes, but the CO2 came out of the atmosphere in the first place (when you
> > grew the plants to produce the oil) so it doesn't add any extra CO2 to
> > the equation.
>
> But the machines to plant, tend and harvest the crop use fuel. I read
> somewhere that they use more than the crops produce.
That darn internet, throwing out misinformation again.
Rapeseed oil is probably the simplest to use in a diesel engine,
requiring little (if any) modification. One acre of land will produce
roughly 127 gallons of rapeseed oil. That's at least 10 times as much
as is required to tend/harvest/etc. one acre of land.
Besides, rapeseed (aka Canola oil) is widely used for frying food. The
energy used to harvest it has already been spent, we're just making use
of a waste product. I believe they handle this waste product by burning
it anyway.
=====
James
__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:22 AM 6/25/2003, you wrote:
Even if you had a motor that ran at 100% efficiency, you'd only go 1/4 to
1/2 again farther. How did Mr Sharp explain these claims?
Didn't you see their EV design? Two sets of batteries, so there is about
twice the range right there. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
Megawatt Motorworks is a new internet resource for anyone interested in
electric vehicles. It features an interactive, searchable and ratable
directory of EV links to help gather the wealth of internet information
all in one place. You'll find feature articles about interesting or
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El Chopper is in the garage!), and aspiring ampheads can purchase
EV-related media products in our online store. We'll be adding more
useful resources in the months ahead.
Discover the Potential!
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All (and especially our local Datsun expert, Plasma Boy, if you're
around) -
Well, I am in the middle of building and rebuilding the suspension,
body, interior, and motor adapter of my 1972 Datsun 240Z. Time has
come for me to start building the battery boxes and I thought I'd run
my ideas by the list's cumulative knowledge before I start fabricating.
I will be using 16 G34 Optima Yellowtops, with with either 10 in the
front and 6 in the rear, or 9 and 7 (leaning towards 10 and 6). The Z
car had a large heavy 6 cylinder engine up front which is why I am
planning on so much more weight up there. I removed around 500 pounds
up front and a bit under 200 in the rear. Plans:
Rear: I have two choices for battery placement, each with their own
advantage. My Z was a 2-seater (they made a 2+2 as well) so there is
space right behind the seats, but it is up fairly high and I am
somewhat concerned about having that much weight directly behind me in
the event of an accident. The other location is directly behind the
rear suspension but sunk into the rear 'deck' of the car, hanging down
where the gas tank and spare tire were. My concern here is that I
would be placing weight behind the rear axle; however, the gas tank,
spare tire, and muffler were all back there originally. I think I
prefer this second location because the weight is lower (helps the ol'
CG) and aesthetically it is marvelous. Once I roll the carpet down
over the batteries there will be no way to tell they are there! The
rear end will be around 100 pounds over stock.
Front: Spacewise, I could pull a Victor up here (: and load 'er up
with Optimas. However I want this car to handle well so weight is a an
important factor. Viewed from above, the engine bay is basically a
large rectangle (longer side is front to back) made by a sub-frame rail
on each side, the radiator mounts in the front, and the firewall in the
back. The motor will occupy the central 9.5" from the firewall forward
about half way. This leaves me room for 6 batteries sunk down between
the frame rails ahead of the motor and then 4 batteries in a rack above
the motor. This should distribute the weight well and keep it fairly
low and centered, while still allowing a glimpse at the motor so the
guys can see what makes 'er go. The front weight will be 150-200
pounds over stock.
Any thoughts, suggestions, "you-are-crazy"s are welcome.
I will upload some photos to my site this evening. Thanks,
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION (and, for Lawrence) HELL, QUESTION
EXTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 6/25/03 9:13:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Rapeseed oil is probably the simplest to use in a diesel engine,
requiring little (if any) modification. >>
Straight Veg Oil will run in a standard diesel motor, but does require mods.
It must be heated (to reduce the viscosity) to about 140F, and the motor er..
engine must be run till warm on regular diesel, and after run on diesel until
the veg oil is completely out of the injector pump. Injector pump timing also
needs to be advanced as well. My tests show 30% less horsepower and 30%
better economy, less emissions of CO, CO2, and HC's, but particulates are much
higher (couldn't quantify that one). Sure did smell cool....
Many large diesel fleets are currently testing biodiesel, mostly mixed around
20% with regular diesel, with manufacturer's blessing. No manufacturer I know
of will honor their warantee if run on straight vegoil.
<<Besides, rapeseed (aka Canola oil) is widely used for frying food. The
energy used to harvest it has already been spent, we're just making use
of a waste product. I believe they handle this waste product by burning
it anyway.>>
Every restaurant I've checked with (several dozen) throw it in the dumpster.
Ben Hazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please, this now is very OT.
EV-focus, please. Only thing combustable to discuss may be plazma :-0
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Veggy oil... kinda OT
In a message dated 6/25/03 9:13:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Rapeseed oil is probably the simplest to use in a diesel engine,
requiring little (if any) modification. >>
Straight Veg Oil will run in a standard diesel motor, but does require mods.
It must be heated (to reduce the viscosity) to about 140F, and the motor
er..
engine must be run till warm on regular diesel, and after run on diesel
until
the veg oil is completely out of the injector pump. Injector pump timing
also
needs to be advanced as well. My tests show 30% less horsepower and 30%
better economy, less emissions of CO, CO2, and HC's, but particulates are
much
higher (couldn't quantify that one). Sure did smell cool....
Many large diesel fleets are currently testing biodiesel, mostly mixed
around
20% with regular diesel, with manufacturer's blessing. No manufacturer I
know
of will honor their warantee if run on straight vegoil.
<<Besides, rapeseed (aka Canola oil) is widely used for frying food. The
energy used to harvest it has already been spent, we're just making use
of a waste product. I believe they handle this waste product by burning
it anyway.>>
Every restaurant I've checked with (several dozen) throw it in the dumpster.
Ben Hazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since you are doing Optimas, you might be able to cram in more by
putting some on their small side, if you can still service the
terminals easily.
Just curious why 16 batteries instead of more? Do you have a
controller voltage limit?
--- Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All (and especially our local Datsun expert, Plasma Boy, if
> you're
> around) -
>
> Well, I am in the middle of building and rebuilding the suspension,
>
> body, interior, and motor adapter of my 1972 Datsun 240Z. Time has
>
> come for me to start building the battery boxes and I thought I'd
> run
> my ideas by the list's cumulative knowledge before I start
> fabricating.
> I will be using 16 G34 Optima Yellowtops, with with either 10 in
> the
> front and 6 in the rear, or 9 and 7 (leaning towards 10 and 6).
> The Z
> car had a large heavy 6 cylinder engine up front which is why I am
> planning on so much more weight up there. I removed around 500
> pounds
> up front and a bit under 200 in the rear. Plans:
>
> Rear: I have two choices for battery placement, each with their
> own
> advantage. My Z was a 2-seater (they made a 2+2 as well) so there
> is
> space right behind the seats, but it is up fairly high and I am
> somewhat concerned about having that much weight directly behind me
> in
> the event of an accident. The other location is directly behind
> the
> rear suspension but sunk into the rear 'deck' of the car, hanging
> down
> where the gas tank and spare tire were. My concern here is that I
> would be placing weight behind the rear axle; however, the gas
> tank,
> spare tire, and muffler were all back there originally. I think I
> prefer this second location because the weight is lower (helps the
> ol'
> CG) and aesthetically it is marvelous. Once I roll the carpet down
>
> over the batteries there will be no way to tell they are there!
> The
> rear end will be around 100 pounds over stock.
>
> Front: Spacewise, I could pull a Victor up here (: and load 'er up
>
> with Optimas. However I want this car to handle well so weight is
> a an
> important factor. Viewed from above, the engine bay is basically a
>
> large rectangle (longer side is front to back) made by a sub-frame
> rail
> on each side, the radiator mounts in the front, and the firewall in
> the
> back. The motor will occupy the central 9.5" from the firewall
> forward
> about half way. This leaves me room for 6 batteries sunk down
> between
> the frame rails ahead of the motor and then 4 batteries in a rack
> above
> the motor. This should distribute the weight well and keep it
> fairly
> low and centered, while still allowing a glimpse at the motor so
> the
> guys can see what makes 'er go. The front weight will be 150-200
> pounds over stock.
>
> Any thoughts, suggestions, "you-are-crazy"s are welcome.
>
> I will upload some photos to my site this evening. Thanks,
>
> Seth
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION (and, for Lawrence) HELL, QUESTION
> EXTERNAL COMBUSTION
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a timer from Home Depot rated for 15A 120VAC. I've never seen one
for 220VAC. Mark T.
> At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >Even better, don't turn the
> >charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and Nintendo
games
> >are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome your
> >feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
>
> I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on 9pm
> until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug in
> anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can handle
> though.
>
> brad
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
>
> Gary, let me preface by saying I don't dispute any of
> your testing, nor your conclusions.
> I am curious however, how Sony can put LiIP batts.
> in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
> grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
> draw must still be in excess of
> VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
> Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop.
> Any explanations?
Explanation is you may need 146A to move away from dead stop,
but you need it only for few seconds.
If you draw 146A for 15 seconds (hi voltage car), you already
move too fast.
Once you finished accelerating from dead stop and
cruising, current drops to 20A-50A manageable by LiIons
directly.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
> I also hear that supercaps and Li-Ion batteries can be manufactured on
> the same line. One is all energy, one is all power. So there is probably
> a package/ chemistry that is "just right" that can come down that line
> that can do just what a company like Sony wants.
You cannot connect super caps directly in parallel to the pack,
LiIon or PbA, doesn't matter. Boost DC-DC converter is needed
to maintain super cap bank output voltage as they discharge.
The cost of this DC-DC converter may be of the same order as power
inverter itself.
Regarding LiIon energy/power, in short there is formulation of the
cell guts for high power low energy, low power high energy and
anything in between as a best compromise.
Of course a given manufacturer chooses what they think is acceptable
compromise. For HV (hi voltage) cars low power cells seem OK.
For LV cars, higher power ones would be better choice.
Thunder-sky makes rather low power cells, which certainly
does not fit any EV application. You have to do your homework
to estimate if they are OK in your particular case.
My estimation is Thunder-sky cells (if work as advertised)
should work OK in >300VDC non-dragster light/medium car conversion.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As many recall, I had two 100Ah cells in ACRX a few month back, and
didn't use them for the past few month.
Recently I wanted to use them to test my BMS, and both cells
were solid 0V. THunder-sky mentioned that it's sort of normal
(I didn't expect so fast self-discharge though), and the cells
can be re-charged to a normal working condition again.
Well, I have bad boy with 4V output pumping 30A into two cells
in series (so no danger to exceed max for either one).
THis is going on 4th day now, thus I got in 24*4*30=2,880Ah
in each 100Ah cell, and the voltage is still 0.15V on one and
about 0.7V on the other. They don't want to wake up.
These two cells may or may not be ruined, I don't know yet.
I'll ask Thunder-sky how to re-start them, or replace them.
The point I want to make to all who purchased them - while waiting to
put in the vehicle, don't let them run down to 0V. Discharge
may or may not be gradual - may be if they're lower than 2.5V, further
self-discharge happens in a hurry in a dew days. I have no idea, and
don't want to test it on my real pack.
I didn't monitor my 2 test cells every hour for the past
several month, just left them disconnected.
Perhaps the best way to keep the cells will be to hook them
all up in parallel and to the power supply, so they're very
slowly charged and finally float at about 4VPC or so.
Just a suggestion.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tried to send this to Trinity Flywheels, but it bounced. :(
I'll have to try again some other time, maybe their phones will work.
Subject: energy wheels, power wheels!
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:28:24 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have always liked the idea of mechanical energy storage,
and love what you have done with your power wheels.
Do you have any products for mobil applications?
Such as boats or cars? How about energy wheels?
I'm looking for both long term and short term storage.
It looks as if you have the short term part finished.
Have you done any work with variable mass flywheels?
ThanX
L8r
Ryan
Myles Twete wrote:
I was just about to step in and make a case in support of Trinity, but then
realized that we aren't talking about Trinity Flywheel.
Trinity Flywheel in the bay area has been a serious contender in the
flywheel energy storage business with real world applications including
backup generation for UPS applications. It's founder, Richard Post of LL
Labs was the premier leader in modern high energy flywheel development with
a major feature article in Scientific American on flywheels, in I think,
1973. Trinity Flywheel http://www.afstrinity.com/, Unique Mobility, Optimal
Energy Systems, US Flywheel, Active Power, Satcon and American Flywheel (now
merged w/Trinity Flywheel) are some of the names of flywheel energy storage
or electromechanical battery developers, most of which are still
around---but none of which, sadly, are yet piercing the EV power supply
market. This, despite promises 10 years ago that we were within 2 years or
so of realizing mobile flywheel kinetic energy storage.
But, clearly from looking at its web pages, Trinity Motors is not at all
Trinity Flywheel. It's sad that Trinity Motors would choose a name so close
to Trinity Flywheel which may one day indeed supply EMBs for automobiles.
So I'm not going to step in to support Trinity Motors....as Rosanna
Rosannadanna would say, "never mind".
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> In general, a smart charger...
> means a programmable one, so, a processor controlled.
>
> If the charger is just limits max current and max voltage, it is still
> a dumb one.
>From what you say, since all four common chargers that I know of from
the four major on-road EV suppliers don't have a built in
microprocessor, then these chargers are DUMB.
Or, another way of looking at it, is relative to each other, all four
chargers are SMART.
>
> For the most people, such a charger is more than enough to take care
> of the batteries, especially forgiving ones as flooded PbA type.
That's good. I was beginning to feel really DUMB.
>
> Trying to use dumb chargers for the batteries with more sophisticated
> charging algorithms like NiCd (requiring special commissioning charges
> or
> tricky temp compensations) or NiNaCl (requiring talking to a charger
> over network) at least without means of defining and storing needed
> charging characteristics can indeed ruin such batteries in short order.
>
The four chargers were never intended for sophisticated battery types.
However, perhaps >95% of people don't use such batteries, so don't care.
> "Dumb" may sound bad, but doesn't mean bad charger. Very often
> it's adequate charger for given battery and the one which works
> perfectly
> for years and fits the bill very well, thus so popular.
Ah, relief at last.
>
> Victor
>
> russco wrote:
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > I am glad to see Russco filling in the gaps. I have had very little
> > > hands on time on a Russco. But I know they are a lot better than Light
> > > dimmer chargers.
> >
> > Thank you. Thank you. There's one person that doesn't think a Russco
> > Charger is a Light Dimmer.
> >
> > Now, is the Russco Charger a dumb or a smart charger? Hmmmm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Could you provide a more objective description of it, and how it
> >> works?
>
> Russ Kaufmann wrote:
> > Well, Lee, I gotta hand it to 'ya. You're the one that got me started
> > on the Russco Charger. And it was on this List, too. So, good things
> > do happen!
>
> Thank you! Glad to be of help. It is always gratifying when someone
> takes the information and uses it to actually build something, make it
> work, and get it on the market!
>
> > Start with a Bad Boy Charger... 120 VAC into a full wave bridge...
> > inductor in series with the AC input lowers charging current to
> > an amp or two, good for finishing current... AC capacitor across
> > input to the full wave bridge, charging current will be high...
> > if capacitor value were varied automatically and electronically,
> > the charging current could be controlled... power factor in the
> > 0.9 range. And that's the basis of the Russco charger.
> >
> > TRIAC in series with the capacitor... [phase control it to regulate
> > its effective capacitance to control charging voltage and current]
>
> Very slick! I like it! It sounds like a very effective technique for
> greatly improving the power factor without a lot of extra complexity.
>
Excellent, Lee likes the Russco Charger!
OK, Lee, does that take the Russco Charger off the "Light Dimmer" list?
> --
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of EV Anti Light Dimmer Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Gary, it was a car called the 'Altra', not the more familiar 'Altima'.
There are only two
> Nissan Altras in existence, so you will not ever have the chance to rent
one. I drove one
> of the two way back in '97 at EVS 14 in Orlando. It was indeed, powered by
a pack of
> Sony-made LiIon batteries. Unlike some of the other small EVs of the time,
the car was
> fairly large and had very strong acceleration, plus a 120 mile claimed
range per charge.
>
Boy, I hope there are more than 2, because the city of Vacaville has 2 of
them, used by a division of the police. They look like station wagons to me:
a bit more in height, a bit heavy underbelly, with 2 bucket seats in back
instead of a bench seat, but otherwise just a Japanese Vista Cruiser! They
use the small-paddle Magnacharger, along with the 3 Hyperminis the city uses
(1 by the police).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Rice
(from U.K.) thinks our biz model is wrong: why not build 200 cars to spread
out the costs?
I'd love to do that--if you start with $1.5M for the first 10 vehicles and
add 190 more @$35K (both rough guesses) then you're around $40K for each
vehicle...with even more than 200, the numbers would be even better.
That,of course, is what economies of scale are about! And with those
numbers, we'd have more choices of who would build them.
John Lussmyer
doesn't think we have much to show for almost a year's work. Of course, I'm
frustrated too! The more people we have giving substantial time, the faster
we can grow from here.
Until now, every conversation, list of people to contact, get-together,
endorsement, cross-link takes time. Believe me that the hardest part is
still to get people to believe that anyone can go head-to-head with the
auto industry and extract much better cars. Compared to this, my tech
friends all agree, challenging Microsoft is child's play.
I'm glad, now that we have the attention of people who've designed the
first PHEVs, who are now saying "maybe CalCars can bring together customers
and we can get going" that we can finally start to focus on the specifics
and specifications of a vehicle. That's what trying to get prototype buyers
is all about.
Peter VanDerWal
says less talk, more action -- pick a proven design and just build cars.
Unfortunately, we don't yet have a single proven design. For instance,
every UC Davis vehicle tries new things (their continuously variable
transmission is a continuing feature). Just today, I saw an interesting new
approach (see below). Until we have even a small number of customers, we
have no one to ask "is this what you would want?"
Therefore:
Maybe there are 50 people on this list who would pledge to be part of a
group of 200 who would each spend somewhere around $30-$40,000 for a
prototype. (They'd all have a say in developing the initial design spec.)
With 50 from here, I think we could get another 150 from the EV1, Th!nk,
Sparrow etc. lists....maybe more, if all 50 of you worked on getting others
to sign up.)
If so, you're welcome to send an email pledge to the list or privately to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm definitely NOT asking anyone to put a check in the mail: we'd respond
by developing a somewhat more formal "letter of intent." (Though if you
still think there's something suspect about what CalCars is trying, we'd be
delighted to do it in partnership with one or more California chapters of
EAAEV, or Union of Concerned scientists or CALSTART (for instance).
The latest:
Here's a design I heard about just today, from the Sustainable Energy
Research Group, University of Queensland, Brisbane Australia: plug-in,
natural gas engine, yet light enough (Hypercar-style) to mostly run from
rooftop solar panels!
www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serg/UltraCommuter (including specs!)
One of its designers is in LA for the SAE FTT until 6/26, then will be in
Northern California; if you want to reach him, I'll pass your note on.
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
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X10 controlled outlets are available for 220V as well as wall 220V wall
switches that could be used to switch power on and off for a standard
220V outlet. The ones I've seen (at http://www.smarthome.com) are only
rated for 20A though so might not work with high power chargers. Once
you have the X10 outlet, you can use a separate X10 timer module to
switch it on and off.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Mark Thomasson
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:15 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
>
> I have a timer from Home Depot rated for 15A 120VAC. I've never seen
one
> for 220VAC. Mark T.
>
>
> > At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Even better, don't turn the
> > >charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and
Nintendo
> games
> > >are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome
your
> > >feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
> >
> > I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on
9pm
> > until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug
in
> > anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can
handle
> > though.
> >
> > brad
> >
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List owners,
I have received following without asking for it, and no list
messages since. Any clue what's up and how to fix it?
Thank you,
Entire email email I got about 10 min ago:
================================================
Subject: SET EV mail digest
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:51:45 PDT
From: "SJSU ListProc(tm) Version 8.2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MAIL set to DIGEST for user [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=================================================
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for
Plug-InHybridPrototypes)
<snip>
> I've got a bottle of white spirit in front of me - but the label's not
> particularly informative - I'm not about to taste it ;^P but I suspect
it's
> very similar to methylated spirit only without the safety colouring...
That
> doesn't help much I know! It's used as a paint thinner - nasty stuff>
James
I wonder if that is not what in the US is called mineral spirits or
turpentine. Mostly used for paint thinner here, although with a bit of green
dye it is called Stoddard Solvent and used in automotive parts washers.
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> Very slick! I like it! It sounds like a very effective technique for
>> greatly improving the power factor without a lot of extra complexity.
russco wrote:
> Excellent, Lee likes the Russco Charger! OK, Lee, does that take the
> Russco Charger off the "Light Dimmer" list?
Gee Russ, I don't know. I have a reputation to uphold as an iconoclast.
Engineers try to find fault with anything, and try to improve it, you
know :-)
Now I see why I was fooled into thinking it was just a "light dimmer"
charger with an LC filter. It is, but the circuit arrangement is unique.
I think you have something that is in a class by itself. It's not a
light dimmer, but it's not a switcher, either.
On the "smart" vs. "dumb" charger debate -- my thought is that these
terms are not defined by the parts a charger uses, but rather by how it
works. A dumb charger does dumb things. Like blow itself up, or destroy
a battery that is accidentally connected backwards. Or that mindlessly
overcharges a battery with far more voltage and amphours than it could
possibly take. Or that shuts off and fails to charge a good battery for
no good reason.
Conversely, a smart charger is one that avoids all these pitfalls. It
does its job without killing itself or the battery, even in unusual
circumstances. It doesn't require a microcomputer to do this (though it
helps).
I've never used a Russco charger, so I can't say whether it falls into
my "smart" or "dumb" charger category. But my impression from the
literature is that it is fairly smart. It has voltage, current, and time
limits on charging, which go a long way toward being smart enough for
lead-acid flooded batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Are you sure you can't pull a trailer home with an EV?!
>Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:12:48 -0700
>From: Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>This questions is confusing to me. How do you get an electric car to a
>campground? And where do you camp when you get there, since you can't pull
>a trailer home with the EV? What part did I miss?
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Should this have been a bio-diesel generator?
>From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snip>
>6. 15kw LP, gas or diesel generator can be mounted or removed depending on
>its application or the vehicle's application.
>This generator can charge the batteries as you drive making this a hybrid
>vehicle.
<snip>
>Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
Since the S10 needs batteries and I've been driving the RX-7 to a
neighboring town, I started charging it off the dedicated KWhr meter. It's
been around 350 watt-hours per mile, and as I mentioned in a previous post,
I only have 3rd gear.
>From an old post:
>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:03:36 -0600
>All,
>Having dedicated a KWhr meter to the S10 about three weeks ago, I've
>averaged 493 watt-hours per mile on the AC side over 550 miles, with a
>combination of the FrankenLester and Zivan chargers for bulk charging, or
>just the Zivan for shallow discharges and a couple of equalizes (yellow
>stage). The driving was a mixture of around town at speeds up to 45 mph,
>and to neighboring towns and the BMX track (hauling bicycles, tools, and
>welder twice) at up to 60 mph. This mileage didn't include a recent trip
>pulling the car hauler with a junk Saab on-board, but did include pulling
>an empty pickup bed trailer round-trip to a neighboring town for someone
>to borrow. Although my "fuel" cost was $0.031 per mile at $0.0622 per
>kilowatt hour, the truck weighs 4300 pounds, and currently has old "wide"
>tires, so I have room for improvement.
>Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:28:35 -0600
>From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>You have me beat, I'm 252 in the summer, 290 in the winter (running the
>battery heaters). Watt hours from the pack have been great this month,
>with 4 out of 16 40 mile trip under 200 WH/mi (average 218 for the month)
<snip>
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--- Begin Message ---
ge-----
Felix Kramer wrote:
>
> The latest:
> Here's a design I heard about just today, from the Sustainable Energy
> Research Group, University of Queensland, Brisbane Australia: plug-in,
> natural gas engine, yet light enough (Hypercar-style) to mostly run from
> rooftop solar panels!
Careful about the claims of solar on an EV for gaining distance. They claim
to be able to put 2.5 square meters (= ~27 square feet), which is a little
more than 5'x5'. Solar cells are less than 15% efficient, with sun shinning
perpendicular to the cell. Flexible solar panels rate about 5-6 watt-hour/sq
ft , making it 135-162 watts/hour. Extremely efficient EVs consume 150
watts/mile at freeway speed. Eight hours of sitting in direct sunlight will
only allow the EV to drive 8 freeway miles, roughly. Fixed panels might
generate a bit more, but this is a drop in the bucket compared to the
real-world demands for electrical power.
Solar may work for a short-range, low-speed EV, for trickle charging, but
let's get away from portable solar being a valid charging source. The TdS
pickup was only able to make a statement by carrying a portable large array
disassembled in the back. Solar works best for trickle charging an aux 12v
battery and on large stationary charging locations.
BR,
Ed
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--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps a tent trailer, with a generator in it....
brad
At 04:42 PM 06/25/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Are you sure you can't pull a trailer home with an EV?!
>Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:12:48 -0700
>From: Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>This questions is confusing to me. How do you get an electric car to a
>campground? And where do you camp when you get there, since you can't pull
>a trailer home with the EV? What part did I miss?
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
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--- Begin Message ---
White Sprit is made with mineral salts, different from turpentine.
http://www.tipking.com/Tips/publish/tip_475.shtml
At 03:28 PM 06/25/2003 -0700, you wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Veggy oil (was Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for
Plug-InHybridPrototypes)
<snip>
> I've got a bottle of white spirit in front of me - but the label's not
> particularly informative - I'm not about to taste it ;^P but I suspect
it's
> very similar to methylated spirit only without the safety colouring...
That
> doesn't help much I know! It's used as a paint thinner - nasty stuff>
James
I wonder if that is not what in the US is called mineral spirits or
turpentine. Mostly used for paint thinner here, although with a bit of green
dye it is called Stoddard Solvent and used in automotive parts washers.
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would be careful using an X10 module to turn off my charger. They operate by sending
a burst (in the ultrasonic range I think) over the AC line and are susceptible to
noise.
It would be a shame if the noise from your charger kept the X10 from turning it off
before your batteries bubbled their life away.
Steve
In a message dated 6/25/2003 5:18:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> writes:
>X10 controlled outlets are available for 220V as well as wall 220V wall
>switches that could be used to switch power on and off for a standard
>220V outlet. �The ones I've seen (at http://www.smarthome.com) are only
>rated for 20A though so might not work with high power chargers. �Once
>you have the X10 outlet, you can use a separate X10 timer module to
>switch it on and off.
>
>-Bryan Avery
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>On
>> Behalf Of Mark Thomasson
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:15 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
>>
>> I have a timer from Home Depot rated for 15A 120VAC. �I've never seen
>one
>> for 220VAC. �Mark T.
>>
>>
>> > At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>> > >Even better, don't turn the
>> > >charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and
>Nintendo
>> games
>> > >are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). �I welcome
>your
>> > >feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
>> >
>> > I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on
>9pm
>> > until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug
>in
>> > anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can
>handle
>> > though.
>> >
>> > brad
>> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
