EV Digest 2881
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Bumper Sticker
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs (LONGISH)
by =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Rice?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Datsun 240Z Battery Placement Musings (a bit lengthly)
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Questions about Russco Chargers
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Just do it
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Order for YTs in Portland, OR may happen soon
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: list processor question
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Power in FDK for the Power of DC race
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: solar on car
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Very slick! I like it! It sounds like a very effective technique for
> >> greatly improving the power factor without a lot of extra complexity.
>
> russco wrote:
> > Excellent, Lee likes the Russco Charger! OK, Lee, does that take the
> > Russco Charger off the "Light Dimmer" list?
>
> Gee Russ, I don't know. I have a reputation to uphold as an iconoclast.
> Engineers try to find fault with anything, and try to improve it, you
> know :-)
>
> Now I see why I was fooled into thinking it was just a "light dimmer"
> ... but the circuit arrangement is unique.
> I think you have something that is in a class by itself.
Yep, just like Russ is.
It's not a
> light dimmer, but it's not a switcher, either.
No, it certainly isn't a switching power supply.
But NO light dimmer.
Thanks for the endorsement.
>
> On the "smart" vs. "dumb" charger debate...
>
> I've never used a Russco charger, so I can't say whether it falls into
> my "smart" or "dumb" charger category. But my impression from the
> literature is that it is fairly smart. It has voltage, current, and time
> limits on charging, which go a long way toward being smart enough for
> lead-acid flooded batteries.
So the Russco charger is "fairly smart." Then it's not dumb.
Then there is no such thing as a dumb light dimmer Russco charger.
Just anti-light dimmer fairly smart Russco chargers.
Thanks, Lee, for setting the record straight.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of EV Anti-Light Dimmer Fairly Smart Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second that. I have an X10 telephone transponder that I was
using to turn on the furnace at the cottage. Often as not, the
X10 unit would turn the furnace on randomly. This was in a house
where nearly nothing else was on at the time. I understand that
you can get line filters and the like for X10, which might have
helped if I had pursued it.
Mike Hoskinson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would be careful using an X10 module to turn off my charger. They operate by sending
a burst (in the ultrasonic range I think) over the AC line and are susceptible to
noise.
It would be a shame if the noise from your charger kept the X10 from turning it off
before your batteries bubbled their life away.
Steve
In a message dated 6/25/2003 5:18:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
X10 controlled outlets are available for 220V as well as wall 220V wall
switches that could be used to switch power on and off for a standard
220V outlet. The ones I've seen (at http://www.smarthome.com) are only
rated for 20A though so might not work with high power chargers. Once
you have the X10 outlet, you can use a separate X10 timer module to
switch it on and off.
-Bryan Avery
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Mark Thomasson
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
I have a timer from Home Depot rated for 15A 120VAC. I've never seen
one
for 220VAC. Mark T.
At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Even better, don't turn the
charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and
Nintendo
games
are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome
your
feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on
9pm
until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug
in
anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can
handle
though.
brad
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought of an EV car Bumper Sticker last night:
Honk! If you're driving an Electric Vehicle!
(because that's the only way I will hear you)
Anyone have any other good ones so EV people can connect on the road?
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't take offense Felix, but you seem to basically agree with me anyway! My
point is really the fact that you already have proof of concept with the AC
Propulsion cars. You don't need to build prototypes, you're past that stage.
Just go to the bank, you'll easily find the funds from them, with the business
case you're putting forward (200 sales over 2 years - money returned to the
bank within a year and a half) $8 million's a drop in the ocean for both them
and you, you have the market cornered...
Banks would love to have their name next to a ground braking 'green' product.
My degree's in Automotive Engineering Design, and I know how much devlopment
work it would take me and a few friends to create just one proof of concept
vehicle (along with all of the paperwork to justify every decision).
I've been putting my own PDS's (product design specifications) together for a
viable low volume EV for more than a year now, and if I didn't have to earn
money, I'd do it full time...
You have a huge advantage over anyone who have just got a set of designs - so
act on it by getting the money - and get your proof of concept vehicles out to
the national car magazines - if you were to give them a vehicle for a week -
I'm sure you'd have a page of only good things written about the cars. When I
look at the AC Propulsion web-site I cannot believe that the t-Zero isn't in
production. There still seems to be a complete lack of consumer awareness -
which is why I say the marketing is so vital.
I'm sure you've justified your market pitch - and it is very clear when I read
US web-sites that the markets are completely different to those in the UK. Size
is the most obvious difference and hence the US obsession with SUV's (to the
point of actually liking the Toyota Rav4 :^| - I'll leave it at that before I
hurt anyones feelings! - Console yourselves with the fact I'm currently driving
a collection of rusty Fiat X1/9's - perfect for me)
In the UK we have SVA (Single Vehicle Approval) tests, where the car is put
through some very easily passed tests...
http://www.via.gov.uk/vehicle_testing/sva/sva.htm
Then there is Low Volume National Type Approval (up to 500 cars per year):
http://www.vca.gov.uk/downloads/files/vca002.pdf
that's the outline spec - sorry the only one I've got in bookmarks - If I find
a better link I'll post it...
No crash testing is required for the SVA (would be disasterous for the owner!)
or LVNTA.
Tell me what you have in the US - I can't say I've ever looked - but I'm
suprised that I haven't heard anything similar mentioned on the group
Finally - you seem to be looking to the big manufacturers - I think you
mentioned Hyundai as a possibility. If you're looking at such small numbers
(even if you make 200 or even 500 per year) you have to consider a small
manufacturer - or maybe a coachbuilder - have something really special built
just for you. A nice Zagato bodied EV would be worth the money you ask from
anyone. How about some of the custom builders - a Retro EV may not take full
advantage of the aerodynamic possibilities, but it would turn heads and make
the cars noticed.
James
No more posts now - It makes me wish I had a little more time on my hands!
<SNIPPED>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:56 PM
Subject: More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs
James Rice
(from U.K.) thinks our biz model is wrong: why not build 200 cars to spread
out the costs?
I'd love to do that--if you start with $1.5M for the first 10 vehicles and
add 190 more @$35K (both rough guesses) then you're around $40K for each
vehicle...with even more than 200, the numbers would be even better.
That,of course, is what economies of scale are about! And with those
numbers, we'd have more choices of who would build them.
__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 03:35 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
Since you are doing Optimas, you might be able to cram in more by
putting some on their small side, if you can still service the
terminals easily.
Just curious why 16 batteries instead of more? Do you have a
controller voltage limit?
weight! I want at least 156 volts for performance and 192 will give me
a little more range than 156. I will consider going up to 240V in the
future, but I want to see how the car handles on 192. With only 16
optimas I can keep the car relatively light - only around 300 pounds
over stock, or so I hope.
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Russco SC18-120 and SC24-120 chargers operate off 120 VAC only and
are intended for charging packs of 84 to 144 volts. To achieve full
power capabilities of 1800 watts AC or 2400 watts AC from the SC18 or
SC24 respectively, a boost transformer is required for packs of 132 or
144 volts. The boost transformer is a 60 hz. buck/boost transformer
configured as an auto transformer to boost the line voltage by either 16
or 32 volts. The transformer can also be wired to buck the line voltage
for faster charging of 84 volt packs.
I'm in the very slow process of building my first conversion, and
sooner or later, I'm gonna need a charger. I'm planning on a 144V
flooded PbA pack. I'd like to be able to do fast charging when
possible, and I'm planning on having a 14-50 put in for home charging
purposes. It looks like all your chargers designed for 144V are 110
only. Any chance of a variable input (110V - 240V AC) similar to the
192V charger you currently produce?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> Sure, we all want to see more plug-in infrastructure for our EVs---me, for
> my electric boat---but imagine if even 100,000 plug-in hybrids went online
> in California suddenly, each using perhaps 15kwh/day of grid electricity.
> That's an extra 1500Mwh/day (or, 60MWatt rate) of electricity. So, we'd
> better be talking about adding lots of windmills and solar panels at the
> same time---and funding it all somehow while we're at it.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland
This last line item is just a joke.
It would take years to make 100,000 Evs, the change won't happen over
night, even if the Big three got on our bandwagon this afternoon.
So worring about a sudden huge demand is a moot point. It ain't gonna
happen.
Plus if I have to burn fossil fuels I rather a really large really
efficient Multi million doallar Power station do it. Not every punny
little piston burner. The power extracted and emmisions are many time
better than Ice engines.
In case you didn't noitice the California and west coast power shortages
were made in Texas my Enron. There was no real shortage. Somebody
conered the market, and will be doing jail time for it.
Current Hybrids are still %100 fossil fueled machines. Hybrid SUV ???
what a joke!, Yet the technology lets them raise the Fleet MPG by some
pretty big numbers.
Plug in Evs let us use the best power supplies, Enable off grid
charging, and are the key to get us off the overseas oil racket.
Plus the grid as we know it is far from over taxed, in the years it
will take to install a Ev fleet, the grid will be sized to take
advantage of it.
Efficientcy is what lets us grow massivly and still we don't need huge
new amounts of generation capacity. Every time I hear of a crissis, it
passed almost unnoticed. when we see the large new car parking lot
lights shut off, then I will believe that we are getting serious about
power conservation. Also most street lighting has been up graded and
the efficientcys of motors and lighting equipment has come a long ways
in the last 10 years, and still has a long way to go.
Good to see you a Dave Cloud's Barby and swap meet up here last weekend,
What a surprise.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
russco wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I am glad to see Russco filling in the gaps. I have had very little
> > hands on time on a Russco. But I know they are a lot better than Light
> > dimmer chargers.
>
> Thank you. Thank you. There's one person that doesn't think a Russco
> Charger is a Light Dimmer.
>
> Now, is the Russco Charger a dumb or a smart charger? Hmmmm.
Got a Micro in it???? Nope !
It's dumb.
I don't have a micro in my stuff, but... I have LOTS of opamps and
comparitors.
for more that voltage and current limits, and a couple of timers We will
need a micro. It will happen when the time is right.
Victor, of course, like to play Video games with his CAN buss chargers.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>.>To: <! I can see kids putting the front in drive and back in
> reverse and smoking the tires while standing still they'll love it, what's
> your Idea?>>
>
> Your idea may be less than optimally efficient, but it's fast, cheap, and
> easy. Another "not optimally efficient" version is a straight BEV with a
> small ICE-powered generator on-board - this series power unit can use very
> simple controls, coming on only when SOC is, say, 50% and off when 80%, or
> whatever suits the battery pack (not much brains needed). Sizing the ICE
for
> the equivalent draw at 65-75mph would be enough for most uses. There are
> plenty of other ideas that would work, like that Saab hybrid another
listee
> did many years ago. This whole HEV issue is another case of overthinking -
> money spent on consultants instead of getting your hands dirty.
>
I got to thinking about this for Jon's ice-cream truck as his boss's
requirements were a little much ( 85mph's for a big truck) . I really don't
like the idea as we all know as the weight goes up the EV performance goes
down . But it is simple and the hardest part the IC is done. I like the
pusher trailers made for old cars. You can leave it home 95% of the time .
For me as I don't own a gas car , I could use a pusher trailer on any of my
EV's . Now along there's lines what about a pusher trailer that's electric
for that around town for the gasser. Keep the gasser as is and put the EV
pusher trailer on for the around town. I know people don't like trailers but
this keeps the gas car as is ( dirty ,smelly, you could still drip oil while
driving electric) . All this is ,is a little like taking a bottle away for a
baby , you give them something else that's like a bottle to put in there
month and keep working at getting them to drink for a glass. I had one of
those long day's yesterday where I had a lot of driving to do ,lawns all
over and put over 40 miles on my work truck towing the lawn trailer ( got to
weight it at one of my job's 5520 lbs , mower and me 1000 lbs ) ,I got home
at dark. I got to plug in twice that day and on the way home the voltage on
the meter was 11.5 with 100 amp load so my batteries were and are in great
shape ( this is there 2nd summer 6v golf cart 20 of them) . I was thinking
how right an EV is for me after 10 years things still keep getting better.
Out lets , that's A real answer and 240 ac please , .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to let everyone know, a few of us in PDX are getting together to order
some Optima yellow tops. So far, we're looking for around 85 of 'em.
The last bid I got was $113.95 each. That was a while back for a much lower
quantity, so I'm hoping for an even better price now that I've asked for a re-
bid.
I did ask them to check for ABO (Appearance Blemish Only) units. It looks like
there won't be that many of them available. And we couldn't get any assurance
that they came from a single manufacturing run. Therefore, it looks like they
will be nice, new, fully warranted YTs.
We're looking at plain, top-post only, D34's. We most likely will try to get
some with side-posts, too, if they can throw them in at the bid price.
So, if anyone other than the four of us Portlanders that I'm working with, want
any, you could let me know desired quantity vs. price. I could then see what
deal I can get. There would be no commitment at all until the final numbers
are known, for sure.
I expect the bid shortly. Once it's received, we'll want to move fairly
quickly, so please be ready to jump on board if you want to take this ride.
Hope this is helpful to some.
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
503-348-6392
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would guess that it means that the Listproc had some messages bounce back
from your address, so it put you on Digests until the problem is fixed.
You will probably have to look up the command to put yourself back to
normal mode.
At 03:21 PM 6/25/2003 -0700, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
List owners,
I have received following without asking for it, and no list
messages since. Any clue what's up and how to fix it?
Thank you,
Entire email email I got about 10 min ago:
================================================
Subject: SET EV mail digest
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:51:45 PDT
From: "SJSU ListProc(tm) Version 8.2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MAIL set to DIGEST for user [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=================================================
Victor
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Slow. I set the cruise control on the Golf TDI at ~58mph when I want to
break 60mpg for the tank. No collisions yet. That's on I-93 in urban
Boston, home of the East Coast's worst drivers. The high speed lane is
85mph there minimum for the morning commute.
55 or even 50mph might be doable, but flashers might be an idea at 50
mph. Pump up the tires until they are rocks. Above 44psi, try for 50.
They won't get too hot at 55 mph. Get all the weight out of the car if
you can. Remove the rear seat for the trip? Ditch the spare tire (get
fix-a-flat). Michelin implies that 3% reduction in rolling resitance is
good for 1% fuel savings on their truck tires. 10% less mass might get
you a couple percent in range, maybe more. Don't use regen on the
highway. Coast, put the selector in neutral. Use regen only when you
slow from the highway and in town. But don't nail regen on the exit
ramp, start slowing from 1/4 mile away and coast to ~40 before you hit
the ramp. Don't brake, conserve the kinetic energy until you *have* to
slow, then use regen. On the highway or in town, if you coast down a
hill faster than your minimum speed, it's just gravy. Beware that 50psi
might feel like the steering is really light. It is.
Drain the battery the day before at least halfway. Then get the fastest
recharge you can to get maximum heat in to the batteries, and float them
all the way up overnight.
As for a voltage, I don't do Hawkers. I wouldn't go below 10.4 volts per
module, or about 260V for you. But ask someone else who uses Hawkers
what they do for low voltage at 2C and 3C rate.
HTH
Seth
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Well, part of the problem is solved (I hope)
>
> Dave over at Battery Warehouse in Frederick MD has agreed to let me drop by
> and charge. According to him he has a "big 3 prong 220 outlet" that should
> be enough to feed the MagneCharger. The only problem is he's open from 10am
> to noon on Sunday, so I can only use it as a charge-up location. And this
> would put me at the Power of DC by 1pm with low batteries and in need of a
> little charge for awhile.
>
> Bleah. Probably wouldn't get off the line till 2pm. Still bless their
> hearts.
>
> This is going to be close. According to Mapquest it's a 45.17 mile drive
> from Relay to FDK. Including some hills. I think if I am going to do this I
> will need *maximum* efficiency. My max distance so far has been 44 miles and
> according to the E-meter I had just gone into the red flashing mode (20%
> power remaining)
>
> So what's the best way to do this? 38 miles of the drive is going to be on
> I-70, a two lane each direction highway with a 70mph speed limit. Drive
> *really* slow? How slow?
>
> And how low can I take the batteries volt and current-wise? These are new
> batteries, and hopefully it will be a warm dry morning. If it's raining
> range will be reduced.
>
> I'm going to have to build a serious extension cord here. What is the best
> way to build one from the MagneCharger, and what kind of plugs should I have
> at the end? I'm thinking carry a screwdriver, some 8 gauge romex, and about
> as many plugs as I can find at Home Despot.
>
> And I need to figure out a way to get back to Relay; the Battery place
> closes at noon.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Chris
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cap can be paralleled with batteries. In general it only makes sense if
you battery sags heavily under load, either due to the chemistry, or
because it is a very small pack that can tolerate the variation. It can
be a low mass way to significantly stiffen a pack during transients. So
if your load fits the (transient) profile, and your battery fits the
profile, then it may not only work, but make sense. It can be done and
has been done.
But my point was that that there is probably a better LiIon mix than the
thunder sky. I would say that 30kW is down toward the lower limit for
peak power for a small car EV. That's 100A at 300VDC. Gary's post seemed
to say that thunder sky cells were taxed at that rate.
Seth
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Seth wrote:
>
> > I also hear that supercaps and Li-Ion batteries can be manufactured on
> > the same line. One is all energy, one is all power. So there is probably
> > a package/ chemistry that is "just right" that can come down that line
> > that can do just what a company like Sony wants.
>
> You cannot connect super caps directly in parallel to the pack,
> LiIon or PbA, doesn't matter. Boost DC-DC converter is needed
> to maintain super cap bank output voltage as they discharge.
> The cost of this DC-DC converter may be of the same order as power
> inverter itself.
>
> Regarding LiIon energy/power, in short there is formulation of the
> cell guts for high power low energy, low power high energy and
> anything in between as a best compromise.
>
> Of course a given manufacturer chooses what they think is acceptable
> compromise. For HV (hi voltage) cars low power cells seem OK.
>
> For LV cars, higher power ones would be better choice.
>
> Thunder-sky makes rather low power cells, which certainly
> does not fit any EV application. You have to do your homework
> to estimate if they are OK in your particular case.
>
> My estimation is Thunder-sky cells (if work as advertised)
> should work OK in >300VDC non-dragster light/medium car conversion.
>
> Victor
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
I read your POST saying you want to know about EV
chargers as you will need one for the EV project
you are working on.
History:
I ticked Russ when at an EBEAA Chapter meeting I
compared his charger to a K&W BC-20 charger (at the
time the BC-20 was commonly called a light-dimmer
charger). Russ took offense to having his charger
being called a light dimmer type.
At the risk of raising Russ' ire, I would recommend
that you not consider a one input voltage charger
(Russ', BC-20, Zivan, etc), and allocate the space
for a PFC-50 charger in your EV project. Locate it
to where you can have easy access to adjust its
output current control knob and also be able to
view the charging current at the same time.
When connected to a 50 amp source, the PFC-50 can be
cranked wide open (to the max). But on lower
amperage power sources (ie: a public AVCON), you
can easily turn the PFC-50 down to keep from
popping a breaker.
The PFC charger's flexibility with an easily
adjustable output current knob, being able to be
able to run off either AC voltage (90 to 240 VAC),
with a a very high power factor correction value,
makes me say: the PFC line of charges is the best
charger 'bang for the buck'.
[For the newbies: I paid full price for my chargers,
do not work for, nor receive money from an EV
company. My effort$ are free and out my pocket]
I have tested both the PFC-20 and the PFC-50. The
PFC-20 is lower in cost and output current, but
charges just as nicely as off 120 VAC as it does off
208, 220, 240 VAC power sources, as the PFC-50 does.
When asked, 'Is it really worth the cost to buy a
a PFC-50 over a PFC-50?' I say yes. Example: when
plugged in at a Costco AVCON 208 VAC source, the
PFC-20 would give me 20 amps into my pack. My PFC-50
gives me 36.6 amps (@ 150 VDC). On my EV, I regain
4 miles of range back into my pack for every hour
of charge at 10 amps. That's 8 miles back for every
hour with a PFC-20, and 15 miles back for every
hour with my PFC-50. That's close enough to double
the power, or half the time. In other words its
the difference between a four hour wait (PFC-20)
and a two hour wait (PFC-50) for a 80% recharge.
Having said that, better designs are always being
made. I would wait until you are at the point to
need the charger (before you receive the batteries),
before you finalize what charger you buy.
I want to push a point many over look. They should
not 'go cheap' on their charger. Many EV drivers
spend tons of money on EV performance, but have a
wimpy charger. Wouldn't that be like having a
Lamborghini performance, but have a soda straw to
refuel the tank?
I would rather have one good charger like my PFC-50,
than a cool sound system. Then again, ...
I am not John Wayland :-)
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
I read your POST saying you want to know about EV
chargers as you will need one for the EV project
you are working on.
SNIP
I want to push a point many over look. They should
not 'go cheap' on their charger. Many EV drivers
spend tons of money on EV performance, but have a
wimpy charger. Wouldn't that be like having a
Lamborghini performance, but have a soda straw to
refuel the tank?
I have no intention of "going cheap" but I am interested in keeping
options open. Frankly, a PFC-50 is way out of budget for me, but I am
seriously considering a '20. I'm not gonna actually buy yet (I'm
currently broke and the car is therefore on hold), but I still like
to know what's available. Quality is very important to me, but I have
to take cost into consideration, as well. I'm not rich
(unfortunately), I sometimes have to take what I can get.
I would rather have one good charger like my PFC-50,
than a cool sound system. Then again, ...
I am not John Wayland :-)
Me either. I don't want to have to lug around multiple chargers just
to be able to access whatever power I may come across. I'd much
rather have one flexible charger.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hurley wrote:
>
> >The Russco SC18-120 and SC24-120 chargers operate off 120 VAC only and
> >are intended for charging packs of 84 to 144 volts. To achieve full
> >power capabilities of 1800 watts AC or 2400 watts AC from the SC18 or
> >SC24 respectively, a boost transformer is required for packs of 132 or
> >144 volts. The boost transformer is a 60 hz. buck/boost transformer
> >configured as an auto transformer to boost the line voltage by either 16
> >or 32 volts. The transformer can also be wired to buck the line voltage
> >for faster charging of 84 volt packs.
>
> I'm in the very slow process of building my first conversion, and
> sooner or later, I'm gonna need a charger. I'm planning on a 144V
> flooded PbA pack. I'd like to be able to do fast charging when
> possible, and I'm planning on having a 14-50 put in for home charging
> purposes. It looks like all your chargers designed for 144V are 110
> only. Any chance of a variable input (110V - 240V AC) similar to the
> 192V charger you currently produce?
Due to the design of Russco Chargers, a 144 volt pack can be charged
only off a 120 volt AC line. The fastest charging of your pack will be
accomplished using a Model SC30-120 SO. This charger is rated at 3000
watts and comes standard with two stage charging and timed shut off at
end of charge. Three stage charging, battery temperature monitoring and
battery shunt regulator disconnect options are available, but not
necessary for regular flooded batteries.
This is a high power factor charger that operates off 15, 20, or 30 amp
service.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Been there. Done that. I have a Weston Model 354 100-0-100 meter that I no
longer use. It is 2 inches in diameter with a three hole flange mount.
I now use a serial emeter to log the data to disk. Much better. The
schematic is at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/BATTERY%20CYCLER%20SCHEMATIC.gif.
This machine has two relays controller by a PC parallel port that enable the
charger and/or load bank. It reads the emeter to read the volts and amps
going into and out of the battery. There are getting to be several copies
around.
Please explain how to connect a meter up using two shunts and four diodes. I
am skeptical about how you might do it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:04 AM
Subject: Battery Cycler project
> Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
> components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a DC
> Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways. Although I have
> tenatively figured out a way to use a single swing meter by using 2 shunts
> and 4 diodes, I am trying to keep things simple by using one shunt in the
B+
> lead. Any ideas or sources for reasonably priced meters? I could use a
> matching DC volt meter that reads 0-30 V as well. I have tried searching
my
> usual online salvage and surplus sources with little success. Regards,
David
> Chapman.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can do it with two power supplies and a diode (or two). No relay or
sensor is necessary.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
> Hi David,
>
> I'm upgrading mine with a Basicstamp "BS2" to control the charging,
it's
> very important to make sure that the battery is fully charged before you
> discharge it, if your testing used batteries then most likely it is
> suffering from out of balance, I'm no expert here but I think the best way
> is to use a CC,CV,CC algorithm, you can do this with two power supplies,
the
> first automatically switches from CC to CV and then you watch for the
> current to stop dropping and then switch to the second power supply for
the
> CC for the needed overcharge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many trailers and motorhomes have generators built in. I have seen them from
2kW to 12kW.
How many EVs have enough power to pull a tent trailer or travel trailer?
The thread was about stopping at a campground to recharge on a road trip. RV
campgrounds are handy since 1) they are typically next to the freeway in
rural area, 2) many of them have 14-50s at each parking spot and 3) you can
take a dip in the pool and take a shower while the car is charging.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Charging at campgrounds
> Perhaps a tent trailer, with a generator in it....
>
> brad
>
> At 04:42 PM 06/25/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> >Are you sure you can't pull a trailer home with an EV?!
> >
> > >Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 18:12:48 -0700
> > >From: Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > >This questions is confusing to me. How do you get an electric car to a
> > >campground? And where do you camp when you get there, since you can't
pull
> > >a trailer home with the EV? What part did I miss?
>
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed
Here's the reply to your comments from the fellow involved with
www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serg/UltraCommuter
If your EV is a 550kg (1200lb) low-drag design with an electric energy
consumption of ~50Wh/km in real driving conditions, then the math works out
quite favourably.
In Brisbane, Qld, Australia, where the vehicle will be used, the average daily
solar insolation on a horizontal plane is 18MJ per square metre. Accounting
for array area (2.5 square metres), array efficiency (15%), charger efficiency
(95%) and battery efficiency (90%) gives you approx 1.6kWh useful energy in
the
battery, per day. With energy consumption of 50Wh/km, this equates to ~30km
solar-powered range per day, or ~12,000km annually.
This only represents the range potential of course - the actual solar range
available depends on people's driving patterns, where they park and how long
they are parked for.
The comment about the solar array being additionally good for trickle charging
batteries, or even powering a low-energy HVAC system, is also quite pertinent.
My only other comment would be that we are not making any claims about the
commercial potential of this concept - only its technical potential.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:47:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
ge-----
Felix Kramer wrote:
>
> The latest:
> Here's a design I heard about just today, from the Sustainable Energy
> Research Group, University of Queensland, Brisbane Australia: plug-in,
> natural gas engine, yet light enough (Hypercar-style) to mostly run from
> rooftop solar panels!
Careful about the claims of solar on an EV for gaining distance. They claim
to be able to put 2.5 square meters (= ~27 square feet), which is a little
more than 5'x5'. Solar cells are less than 15% efficient, with sun shinning
perpendicular to the cell. Flexible solar panels rate about 5-6 watt-hour/sq
ft , making it 135-162 watts/hour. Extremely efficient EVs consume 150
watts/mile at freeway speed. Eight hours of sitting in direct sunlight will
only allow the EV to drive 8 freeway miles, roughly. Fixed panels might
generate a bit more, but this is a drop in the bucket compared to the
real-world demands for electrical power.
Solar may work for a short-range, low-speed EV, for trickle charging, but
let's get away from portable solar being a valid charging source. The TdS
pickup was only able to make a statement by carrying a portable large array
disassembled in the back. Solar works best for trickle charging an aux 12v
battery and on large stationary charging locations.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
> Been there. Done that. I have a Weston Model 354 100-0-100 meter that I no
> longer use. It is 2 inches in diameter with a three hole flange mount.
Cool, hopefully you have a matching shunt? Let me know off list if you want
to sell it and terms.
I have looked at the schematic of your PC controlled battery cycler and like
I said to Lee, looks great and even buildable by me, but I didn't see any
software offered and don't really want to spend the $$ on an E-meter. Lees
suggestion about using a DMM with RS-232 port sounds interesting, and he did
referance something called QuickBasic (no idea what that is). I still don't
quite understand the need for the Emeter/DMM.unless its for the simplicity
of using a pre made item for the serial input as opposed to building an
interface that the same comp could read. If I have missed something, please
let me know.
> Please explain how to connect a meter up using two shunts and four diodes.
I
> am skeptical about how you might do it.>
You might be right, I am a welder/fabricator/auto mechanic and not an EE,
but I figured to use a shunt on the load side of the spst load relay and
the other on the charger side of the spst charging relay and use the diodes
to block current reversal thru whatever shunt is unused at the moment.
BTW, I notice that both you and Lee designed your battery cyclers to share
the B- lead between the charger , load and battery hookup. I guess this
means that there is no reverse current issue between the charger and load
thru the negative connection? Also I noticed that you put your 75 Amp shunt
in the negative connection to the load, is the neg lead the preferred choice
when using amp meters? In cars we always ran the Ammeter in the + lead and I
have always assumed that was the correct way.
Regards, David Chapman.
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:04 AM
> Subject: Battery Cycler project
>
>
> > Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
> > components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a DC
> > Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways. Although I have
> > tenatively figured out a way to use a single swing meter by using 2
shunts
> > and 4 diodes, I am trying to keep things simple by using one shunt in
the
> B+
> > lead. Any ideas or sources for reasonably priced meters? I could use a
> > matching DC volt meter that reads 0-30 V as well. I have tried searching
> my
> > usual online salvage and surplus sources with little success. Regards,
> David
> > Chapman.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
>
>
> > Been there. Done that. I have a Weston Model 354 100-0-100 meter that I
no
> > longer use. It is 2 inches in diameter with a three hole flange mount.
>
> Cool, hopefully you have a matching shunt? Let me know off list if you
want
> to sell it and terms.
The meter has the shunt on board. The big wires connect to the back of the
meter. I have little use for it now that I have the emeter.
> I have looked at the schematic of your PC controlled battery cycler and
like
> I said to Lee, looks great and even buildable by me, but I didn't see any
> software offered and don't really want to spend the $$ on an E-meter.
The software is free from me. I have about 40 versions of the program that
were customized for various projects. If
> Lees
> suggestion about using a DMM with RS-232 port sounds interesting, and he
did
> referance something called QuickBasic (no idea what that is).
Quickbasic is a basic interpreter that came with some versions of MSDOS.
cwas a complier that produced .EXE files for direct execution under MSDOS. I
use Quickbasic for coding my applications.
> I still don't
> quite understand the need for the Emeter/DMM.unless its for the simplicity
> of using a pre made item for the serial input as opposed to building an
> interface that the same comp could read.
The emeter and/or DMM is the digitizing workhorse of the system. It reads
the voltage and current to send to the computer. The measurements are used
by the software to decide when to end the charge and discharge portions of
the cycle. It also allows logging the data to disk to be reviewed during and
after the cycle. Yes, it is using a premade item for the serial input.
> If I have missed something, please
> let me know.
I did not see in your description how you were going to calibrate your
system.
> > Please explain how to connect a meter up using two shunts and four
diodes.
> > I am skeptical about how you might do it.>
>
> You might be right, I am a welder/fabricator/auto mechanic and not an EE,
> but I figured to use a shunt on the load side of the spst load relay and
> the other on the charger side of the spst charging relay and use the
diodes
> to block current reversal thru whatever shunt is unused at the moment.
The diode forward voltage will prevent you from getting an accurate reading
if you put the diodes in the little wires from the shunt to the meter. You
would need to put the diodes in the large current carrying conductors. If
you do this, then the meter will be connected to both shunts at the same
time causing large currents to flow in them causing excess voltage drops and
invalidating the meter calibration.
You could possibly use a relay to move the meter wires from shunt to shunt
and get rid of the diodes.
You need to use a single shunt to get calibrated measurement.
> BTW, I notice that both you and Lee designed your battery cyclers to share
> the B- lead between the charger , load and battery hookup. I guess this
> means that there is no reverse current issue between the charger and load
> thru the negative connection?
As long as you break the positive lead there is no current flowing in the
negative lead.
> Also I noticed that you put your 75 Amp shunt
> in the negative connection to the load, is the neg lead the preferred
choice
> when using amp meters?
An emeter requires the shunt to be in the negative lead.
> In cars we always ran the Ammeter in the + lead and I
> have always assumed that was the correct way.
In cars, the only way to access the battery current without the starter
current present was to tap the wire between the hot terminal of the starter
solenoid and the rest of the car. That way you could read the charge current
and the load without the starter current burning up the meter.
>
> Regards, David Chapman.
>
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:04 AM
> > Subject: Battery Cycler project
> >
> >
> > > Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
> > > components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a
DC
> > > Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways. Although I
have
> > > tenatively figured out a way to use a single swing meter by using 2
> shunts
> > > and 4 diodes, I am trying to keep things simple by using one shunt in
> the
> > B+
> > > lead. Any ideas or sources for reasonably priced meters? I could use a
> > > matching DC volt meter that reads 0-30 V as well. I have tried
searching
> > my
> > > usual online salvage and surplus sources with little success. Regards,
> > David
> > > Chapman.
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
