EV Digest 2883
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: solar on car
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: solar on car
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: straight cut gears are noisy
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Plug-in hybrid range/kit cars/solar on car roof
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Lambda DC-DC converters
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Anybody dump charging ?
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 2882
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Anybody dump charging ?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) CalCars Plan - nonprofit?
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Meter damping
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Zapi control codes
by "paul compton (RRes-Roth)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Contactor/relay specing
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: solar on car
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Ended auction
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tilley and his Delorean
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Tilley and his Delorean
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re:Questions about Russco Chargers
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There estimates seem to be overly optimistic.
They use the rated power for the array (375 watts) but ignore the fact
that you only get rated power when the entire array is pointed directly
at the noon time sun AND has some kind of cooling to keep the cells from
getting warm (warm cells are less efficient), then they figure that they
will have almost 8 hours a day, every day, when these conditions are
met.
Here are the problems with these assumptions.
1) I've never been to Australia, but I[m pretty sure they don't get 8
hours of noon time sun.
2) In order to maintain the aerodynamic shape of the car they are going
to have to bond the cells to a curved body.
3) 15% efficiency cells are NOT flexible, so they will need a thick
layer of encapsulation to round off the flat cells stuck to a curved
body. This encapsulation will lower their efficiency slightly.
4) they will need some kind of cooling on the back side of the cells
(probably just air flow) How do they plan on accomplishing this while
simultaneously providing a stiff, durable, support for the cells
(they're fragile)?
5) A series string of solar cells is limited by it's weakest member, in
this case probably the cell that has the least optimal illumination (or
the one the bird just pooped on),
My guess is that this array will be operating at about 50% of optimum
(perhaps less).
6) Advanced batteries are typically LESS than 90% efficient. In fact
most advanced batteries seem to require active cooing while charging
which will further lower efficiency.
I'd be really surprised if their array was able to store even 1/2 of
what they estimated in the batteries.
Now they also seem to be overly optimistic on the amount energy needed
to propell the car. I'm guessing the 50whr per mile figure assumes a
steady speed on level ground. For 99% of the people (who have to deal
with stop signs and traffic) this is unrealistic.
It is, however, a REALLY cool looking car, at least the artist
renderings are.
P.S. Kudos to Felix for sticking in there and remaining polite, even
while having to deal with a jerk like me.
On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 23:23, Felix Kramer wrote:
> Ed
> Here's the reply to your comments from the fellow involved with
> www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serg/UltraCommuter
>
> If your EV is a 550kg (1200lb) low-drag design with an electric energy
> consumption of ~50Wh/km in real driving conditions, then the math works out
> quite favourably.
>
> In Brisbane, Qld, Australia, where the vehicle will be used, the average daily
> solar insolation on a horizontal plane is 18MJ per square metre. Accounting
> for array area (2.5 square metres), array efficiency (15%), charger efficiency
> (95%) and battery efficiency (90%) gives you approx 1.6kWh useful energy in
> the
> battery, per day. With energy consumption of 50Wh/km, this equates to ~30km
> solar-powered range per day, or ~12,000km annually.
>
> This only represents the range potential of course - the actual solar range
> available depends on people's driving patterns, where they park and how long
> they are parked for.
>
> The comment about the solar array being additionally good for trickle charging
> batteries, or even powering a low-energy HVAC system, is also quite pertinent.
>
> My only other comment would be that we are not making any claims about the
> commercial potential of this concept - only its technical potential.
>
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: More prototype PHEVs means cheaper unit costs
> >Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:47:25 -0700
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >ge-----
> >Felix Kramer wrote:
> > >
> > > The latest:
> > > Here's a design I heard about just today, from the Sustainable Energy
> > > Research Group, University of Queensland, Brisbane Australia: plug-in,
> > > natural gas engine, yet light enough (Hypercar-style) to mostly run from
> > > rooftop solar panels!
> >
> >
> >Careful about the claims of solar on an EV for gaining distance. They claim
> >to be able to put 2.5 square meters (= ~27 square feet), which is a little
> >more than 5'x5'. Solar cells are less than 15% efficient, with sun shinning
> >perpendicular to the cell. Flexible solar panels rate about 5-6 watt-hour/sq
> >ft , making it 135-162 watts/hour. Extremely efficient EVs consume 150
> >watts/mile at freeway speed. Eight hours of sitting in direct sunlight will
> >only allow the EV to drive 8 freeway miles, roughly. Fixed panels might
> >generate a bit more, but this is a drop in the bucket compared to the
> >real-world demands for electrical power.
> >
> >Solar may work for a short-range, low-speed EV, for trickle charging, but
> >let's get away from portable solar being a valid charging source. The TdS
> >pickup was only able to make a statement by carrying a portable large array
> >disassembled in the back. Solar works best for trickle charging an aux 12v
> >battery and on large stationary charging locations.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Founder California Cars Initiative
> http://www.calcars.org
> PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
> cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if I'm coming into this a little late and
missing something in the thread, but Marianne Walpert,
who owned VoltsRabbit #2 before me had a solar panel
on the roof. She noted that whatever she picked up in
trickle charge, was lost in increased aerodynamic
drag. Perhaps your cells are the "roofing shingle
type", and you won't have those losses...
--- "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But Ed...
>
> 5 miles on a 60 mile range is a more than 8%
> increase in range, right? And every little bit
> helps...you wouldn't want it as your only source, of
> course, but if it's "in the mix" then it certainly
> seems a worthwhile addition.
>
> .Steve Coallier
> "Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:34 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: solar on car
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Excellent use - drive 5 miles, use about 1.5kw
> electricity, and after 8
> hours, with proper orientation, regain 1.5kw of
> electricity. Good
> short-range solution. Cannot find sizing on the M75,
> but the SP75 panels are
> about 4'x1.75'. So that's 28sf of solar panels,
> which matches with my
> initial calculations.
>
> Felix,
>
> 5 mile / 1.5kw range extension (under ideal
> conditions) will not get you far
> if the production vehicle is designed for 60 or 80
> or more miles per charge
> range. For a solar car, light weight and extremely
> efficient (which means
> not very practical for the average person), this
> might be enough, but I
> thought the goal of CalCars was to produce a vehicle
> for the more typical
> driver.
>
> -Ed
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:43, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I have heard how ambient temp effects PbA batetries, what about NiCads
> and the other battery technolgies mentioned here.
Lead hates cold; nicad and NiMH hate heat. If you see a lot of 104 deg F
days, you'll need some pretty sophisticated cooling to use a nickel-based
battery. Actually, up in that range, you're apt to see markedly reduced
cycle life in lead batteries, too.
My Force lived its first few years in Arizona as an APS vehicle. The
average life of the first several battery packs was less than 9 months.
Apparently heat was one of the major factors in their rapid demise.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:29, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> I figured we'd keep
> everything else constant except "inversion regen" which happens
> when you flip the forward/reverse switch into reverse while
> cruising down the highway.
Yipe! Is it really supposed to do that? I can't imagine anyone ever
switching to reverse while motoring forward, except by sheer carelessness or
in an emergency.
I believe if that happens to my Brusa, the controller just shuts down, but
I'm not about to try it deliberately.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a few comments (then I'll be offline until Sunday night).
Thanks to everyone who's thought about this vehicle type, perhaps for the
first time. And thanks for considering a different model for
commercializing vehicles.
* I did want to clarify that in the world of PHEVs, they're generally
referred to as HEV20, HEV40, HEV60 -- meaning their all-electric range
before refueling. The higher the range, the more costly and the heavier the
vehicle. Well-to-wheel emissions, cost-competitiveness and other numbers
all vary (see the Electric Power Research Institute studies cited on
CalCars' resources page). We think it's likely that the first CalCars
prototypes will be HEV20-30. Our goal is to produce demonstration vehicles
that is all-electric for most drivers' daily commutes, which are in the
20-25-mile range, according to US DOT research.
* We recognize that homologation issues, especially crash-testing and
California SMOG tests, are a complex issue. What is a "kit car" in the U.S.
is not always a simple issue, especially when we're talking about
conversions. If we do go that route, I would welcome guidance and
suggestions from people with relevant experience.
On a related topic, what NHTSA testing would be required if a major car
maker converted an existing vehicle is also not clear: one manufacturer's
engineer told me he thought abbreviated testing based on how the weight,
structural elements and center of gravity of the vehicle had changed would
mean a much quicker-than-usual process.
* I posted the link to the Australian project not because I was proposing
that as a realistic solution for CalCars -- among other things, we have
focused only on 4-5-passenger vehicles. I simply thought people on the list
would be interested in knowing about it and possibly connecting to the
group. (Of course, 5 solar miles for every 20 miles driven daily, with the
rest coming from the grid, doesn't look so bad.)
* Finally, so far one person has emailed me indicating they'd be part of a
200-person buying group for a $30-$40K prototype. I hope others are
thinking about it. The invitation won't be withdrawn!
Felix
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just in case someone here might find these useful.
Lambda DC-DC converter. 18-32 volt input, 24 V nominal. 13 V out at 3 amps.
Specs in PDF format can be found here >
http://www.lambdapower.com/ftp/catalog/dsr_fall92.pdf <
Got a couple doz to sell, $ 30.00 ea includes shipping. Let me know offlist.
Thanks, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
> Now you got my interest Joe, how you do that? the only thing I can think
of
> is to run the first PS at 2.45v per cell with the current knob turned all
> the way up and the second PS set with voltage unlimited and the current
knob
> set to 10% of the capacity (run both PS at same time) and wait for the
> voltage to stop rising, if this is what your talking about, great idea,
but
> what are the diodes for, I would think that the Sorensen PS are self
> protected?
Some of the Sorensen power supply have an "Active Pulldown" in them to allow
them to regulate at low load. There is a circuit in them that holds the
voltage down to the programmed voltage with no load on them since some of
the power stages won't hold regulation with no load on them. One of the
Sorensen application notes discusses this and it's application in detail.
The two diodes are to prevent this "active pulldown" from disrupting the
current settings on the power supplies. Yes, you are right on this.
The way to do it with one diode is to put the power supplies in series and
put the diode across the lower current supply to prevent it from being
reverse biased during bulk charge. The lower current power supply does not
need to be as sophisticated as a Sorensen. It can be just a 4 amp TWC (third
world charger) and a resistor calibrated to put out the correct equalization
current.
> This is what I saw when I tried to break in (cycle) a replacement
Optima
> for the car, the setup, 25 amp load resistor 500W with fan, a Rudman reg
> with Lee Harts cycler modifications and a small automotive battery charger
> 20 amps, I stopped the automatic cycling after the fourth cycle because
the
> discharge time was decreasing at a steady rate, it became very clear that
a
> dumb charger wasn't going to cut it, the voltage hit 14.7v before the
> current dropped to 2 amps so the battery wasn't "full" when it switched
over
> to the discharge mode.
Been there. Done that with the same results. Except I was using an emeter
and PC controlled relays.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I may get a spare battery pack for dump charging.
Added plus to store my excess energy generated from the solar array.
Quick charging also very beneficial.
Also its good to have two matched sets of batteries for spares.
If one propulsion battery goes I can swap out a good one off my dump
pack.
Now is it best to match that is 18 in car 18 for dumping or more ?
This option makes it brain dead simple just bridge and wait right ?
Or I thought maybe have 19 for the dump pack - any thoughts here.
Use a power relay and bang engage directly shunting the packs.
All opinions welcome.
Thanks,
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the way to state this is:
Each cell can deliver 90 watts (3 V x 30 A) safely for three hours.
To get 90 HP, you will need 994 of these cells.
90 HP 746 W 1
--------- x ---------- x ---------- = 994 cells
90 W 1 HP .75
This formula takes the system voltage out of consideration.
Opinion:
That seems like an awful lot of cells to make 90 HP.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: LiIon conclusions
> See below.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 3:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: LiIon conclusions
>
> << snip >>
>
> > Of course a given manufacturer chooses what they think is acceptable
> > compromise. For HV (hi voltage) cars low power cells seem OK.
> >
> > For LV cars, higher power ones would be better choice.
>
> << snip >>
>
> That is true only if you are also changing the size of the pack at the
same
> time.
>
> If you take 200 cells and wire them all in series for the "high" voltage
> pack and then you pull "X" amount of power from that pack each cell will
> have to deliver "Y" amount of current.
> If you then rewire the pack as two strings of 100 cells for the "low"
> voltage pack and pull the same amount of power from it as you did from the
> high voltage pack, each "cell" will have to deliver the same amount of
> current as in the high voltage pack. In other words the power that each
> cell must provide is the same for high and low power packs.
>
> If you are going to compare high and low voltage packs and you change more
> variables than just the voltage you should provide that info so as to
avoid
> misunderstandings.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look in the archives. It has been reported in the past. One story told of a
guy backing out of his garage down the sloped driveway into the street and
throwing the electrical reverse lever into forward before the car stopped
rolling.
Series motors really bite hard when that first PWM pulse hits them and the
regen current skyrockets through the free wheel diodes.
The rest of the story is fuzzy in my mind but I think it involved replacing
some U joints.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
> On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:29, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
>
> > I figured we'd keep
> > everything else constant except "inversion regen" which happens
> > when you flip the forward/reverse switch into reverse while
> > cruising down the highway.
>
> Yipe! Is it really supposed to do that? I can't imagine anyone ever
> switching to reverse while motoring forward, except by sheer carelessness
or
> in an emergency.
>
> I believe if that happens to my Brusa, the controller just shuts down, but
> I'm not about to try it deliberately.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uhhhh no. It looks like there is minimal room for batteries. Bikes like
this are dime a dozen in motorcycle junk yards. That's the place to look.
Lawrence Rhodes........
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 6:00 PM
Subject: EV digest 2882
>
> EV Digest 2882
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) Re: Power of DC this Sunday June 29
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 2) First car by Ferdenand Porsche
> by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 3) Re: solar on car
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 4) RE: Datsun 240Z Battery Placement Musings (a bit lengthly)
> by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 5) Electric Motorcycle Glider
> by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 6) RE: solar on car
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 7) RE: LiIon conclusions
> by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 8) RE: CalCars Plan
> by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 9) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
> by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 10) Re: Battery Cycler project
> by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 11) Re: CalCars Plan
> by =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Rice?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 12) Driving to Power of DC.
> by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 13) Zapi control codes
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 14) Re: Driving to Power of DC.
> by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 15) Re: Driving to Power of DC.
> by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 16) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
> by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 17) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 18) Re: First car by Ferdenand Porsche
> by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 19) Re: Order for YTs in Portland, OR may happen soon
> by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 20) Bad Boy Charger Usage
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 21) RE: solar on car
> by "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 22) Re: Order for YTs in Portland, OR may happen soon
> by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 23) Mike the Menace strikes again
> by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 24) I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
> by ItalysBadBoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 25) straight cut gears are noisy
> by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 26) Re: EV Album
> by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 27) Tilley and his Delorean
> by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you connect 18 charged batteries to 18 uncharged batteries, you will get
very little current transfer. You need to boost the voltage to get current
to flow.
Consider this:
18 (12v) batteries under load will read about 216 volts. 18 (12v) batteries
on charge will read about 270 volts. You need a voltage booster to make up
this voltage difference to get current to flow and charge the batteries.
The other option is to use 22 (12v) batteries in your dump pack to match the
voltage better. You will need to control the current during the dump and
that is the hard part. One way is to use a motor controller and an inductor
on the output side. Have a control circuit turn the PWM up as the voltage of
the pack being charged rises and the voltage of the dump pack drops.
Rod Wilde was dump charging at the drag strip with just wire resistance to
limit the current and it seemed to be successful. You might discuss it with
him to see if you want to do it that way.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV SEND MSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: Anybody dump charging ?
> I may get a spare battery pack for dump charging.
> Added plus to store my excess energy generated from the solar array.
> Quick charging also very beneficial.
> Also its good to have two matched sets of batteries for spares.
> If one propulsion battery goes I can swap out a good one off my dump
> pack.
> Now is it best to match that is 18 in car 18 for dumping or more ?
> This option makes it brain dead simple just bridge and wait right ?
> Or I thought maybe have 19 for the dump pack - any thoughts here.
> Use a power relay and bang engage directly shunting the packs.
> All opinions welcome.
> Thanks,
> Danny
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing you can do is get a small variac and a bridge. It can be used up
to 120v pack. You pay for as much variac as you need. I have seen them
surplus as low as 29 dollars for 5 amps. More amps more cost. Lawrence
Rhodes......
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ItalysBadBoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
> Hello all,
>
> I am currently looking for a 36 volt 15 amps or
> less charger. I have 3 batteries, SLA, AGM,
> rated at 50 ah. The manufactor recommended
> charging at 15 amps or less. Being portable is
> not a factor, I would perfer used to save some
> dough, and I live in Southern California. You
> can contact me on or off the list.
>
> Thanks, Allan
>
> PS: If someone just happened to post a charger
> for sale on here, I did not see since I fell
> behind on my email.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." --- Richard P. Feynman
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Remember the following first rule of disinformation analysis: truth is
specific, lie is vague. Always look for palpable details in reporting and if
the picture is not in focus, there must be reasons for it.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking at the paper today and saw ads for "donate your car to
charity for a tax deduction".
If a group of electric car conversion people was setup, could they not be
organized as a non-profit, offer a tax deduction for the donated cars, sell
of the ones not appropriate to conversion, convert the rest, and consider
it a vehicle recycling company?
just a thought.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've just replaced the charging ammeter in my Mazda, mainly because
the old one had no numbers on the face and could not be read
accurately at the low end of the scale.
The new meter is a bit hard to read because the needle waves around a
lot. There seems to be some high frequency ripple because the needle
becomes a blur nearly half an amp wide when the power is turned on,
and there's also a visible wavering up and down of about an amp.
So the question is, can I damp out these oscillations by just hooking a
capacitor across the meter? What's a good size to start trying with?
The meter is a universal panel meter with a shunt that makes it read 0-
20A, and seems to be approx 70 mV full-scale deflection.
When I charged up after installing the meter, I logged the current by
measuring the voltage across the ammeter (using a multi-meter with
RS232 port). The output can be seen in Excel 97 format with a graph,
or CSV format for those who can't read Excel:
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw/charge.xls
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw/charge.csv
I'm not sure if the jaggedness of the first stage (up to 5000 seconds) is
due to the ripple or something else. The charger has a regulator board
in it but I have no information on it (there's no name brand and it may be
a home-brew).
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/460.html
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've typed up what codes I have and put the file at;
http://members.aol.com/evconsulting
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found a couple of nice Allen Bradley NO relay/contactors today (for the Batt
cycler project). The only thing the rating plate says is "24 Vdc" which I am
pretty sure is the coil voltage and "Bulletin X89309" also on the tag, the
rest of the ratings have been left blank. "RDB 6329 is molded into the side
of the coil covering. I have hit the AB site but I cannot come up with
anything. Any ideas on how to rate these? Power studs are 5/16", and after
removing the domed bakelite cover the contacts are approx .625 diameter and
have a .050 seperation. They appear to be tin plated, cannot tell for sure
without further disassembly. Any thoughts? DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, this is Queensland we are talking about here.
They do get quite a bit of sunshine (probably equiv to southern Cal or Florida).
OK, so it isn't 8 hours of noon-level sun, but it is quite a bit more than London or
New York.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 27 June 2003 11:26 AM
To: EV
Subject: Re: solar on car
<snip>
Here are the problems with these assumptions.
1) I've never been to Australia, but I[m pretty sure they don't get 8
hours of noon time sun.
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent post, well said. The key point of someone getting electrocuted by
non-isolated chargers and legislating out homebuilt EV's should be heeded by
all.
(ps, I wish I had more time to contribute, write longer posts but i'm always
bouncing off the walls here putting out fires and designing switching power
supplies & class-d amps, one of two engineers)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
> On 26 Jun 2003 at 13:15, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > Don't forget isolation.
>
> I've been arguing the case for isolated charging for some years now, and
my
> arguments have mostly been dismissed. It's good to have someone with
Mark's
> background and knowledge in agreement.
>
> IMO, if only a few dozen nonisolated chargers are in service, the risk
isn't
> huge. But the more such chargers are sold, the greater the risk.
>
> I don't agree that a GFI is adequate protection. I have a GFI similar to
> the ones in K&W chargers in my junkbox. I pulled it out of my kitchen
when
> it wouldn't trip in response to the test button. GFIs are electronic
> devices. They wear out and just plain fail. Do you test your GFI every
> time you charge? Really?
>
> My concern is for the risk that some 5 year old kid will someday get
> electrocuted while playing around someone's unisolated EV on charge. If
> that should happen, not only will we have one horribly grief-stricken
EVer,
> we're going to have a fight on our hands. We'll see legislation to
regulate
> or even ban homebuilt EVs. We're apt to lose that fight, because we don't
> have the financial or political strength for it.
>
> The dirt and moisture that build up in any vehicle can become conductive.
> It's worse with flooded batteries and their acid mist. Is a GFI and an
> equipment ground really enough protection? How often have you cheated the
> ground? What about those times when the GFI keeps tripping and you need
to
> charge anyway?
>
> How much does a transformer cost? A switcher circuit? What's a kid's
life
> worth? What's our future freedom to build what we want worth?
>
> I may be wrong, but I don't think it should cost more than a few hundred
> dollars to add isolation to an already good charger. I know Rich has
talked
> about making it optional, though I don't think he has that very close to
the
> front of the queue right now. I hope that both he and Russ will make an
> isolated power stage optional, if not standard, in their chargers.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. So what happened to this auction?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2420172550&category=6737
It was up to 1,000, but now looks like all the bids were cancelled?
I've heard bad things about BAT cars; are they worth anything?
CZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
> Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
> (something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders.. oh my.)
I also remember that nobody came close to guessing how he was going to do it
(drive 200 miles) . But from this foolishness come the one device that would
put electric car's in the minds and harts of everyone. The wind mill Hood
Ornament. With its spinning magnets and flashing leds , . this I have
discovered about the little HO which can be make from a VCR head .
People have been saving old broken VCR's just for me. They are so happy
that I've finely come and got them.
Steve Clunn
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I think you folks might be acting a bit like chicken little.
Perfect safety is impossible to achieve, EVERYTHING can hurt you or kill
you under the right circumstances.
That's why there is risk analysis, at some point additional safety costs
more than it's worth.
Any way, isolation is nice, but in order for someone to die by
electrocution from a non-isolated charger a NUMBER of things must go
wrong simultaneously.
1) the GFI must fail.
2) you need a low resistance short from the pack to the body/frame.
3) the ground connection to the body/frame must fail (I ground the body
of my truck, don't you?)
4) the body/frame needs to have exposed metal (it's been my experience
that painted surfaces don't conduct enough to even notice)
5) the person touching needs to be barefoot and standing on a well
grounded surface.
6) the person touching must be soaking wet, or something, to lower their
personal resistance for enough current to flow.
Isolation just adds one more thing that must fail (and sometimes does)
I've been sitting here racking my brains and I can't recall the last
time I heard about someone dieing from electrocution by household
current. I don't know anyone personally who has, I've never read about
it in the paper, or seen it on TV.
I have seen(on TV) a guy get drunk, climb a telephone pole, short out a
high tension wire(big flash), fall 20 feet to the ground....and live.
I think you folks might be a might bit paranoid here.
On Fri, 2003-06-27 at 05:58, Mark Hanson wrote:
> Excellent post, well said. The key point of someone getting electrocuted by
> non-isolated chargers and legislating out homebuilt EV's should be heeded by
> all.
>
> (ps, I wish I had more time to contribute, write longer posts but i'm always
> bouncing off the walls here putting out fires and designing switching power
> supplies & class-d amps, one of two engineers)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
>
>
> > On 26 Jun 2003 at 13:15, Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> > > Don't forget isolation.
> >
> > I've been arguing the case for isolated charging for some years now, and
> my
> > arguments have mostly been dismissed. It's good to have someone with
> Mark's
> > background and knowledge in agreement.
> >
> > IMO, if only a few dozen nonisolated chargers are in service, the risk
> isn't
> > huge. But the more such chargers are sold, the greater the risk.
> >
> > I don't agree that a GFI is adequate protection. I have a GFI similar to
> > the ones in K&W chargers in my junkbox. I pulled it out of my kitchen
> when
> > it wouldn't trip in response to the test button. GFIs are electronic
> > devices. They wear out and just plain fail. Do you test your GFI every
> > time you charge? Really?
> >
> > My concern is for the risk that some 5 year old kid will someday get
> > electrocuted while playing around someone's unisolated EV on charge. If
> > that should happen, not only will we have one horribly grief-stricken
> EVer,
> > we're going to have a fight on our hands. We'll see legislation to
> regulate
> > or even ban homebuilt EVs. We're apt to lose that fight, because we don't
> > have the financial or political strength for it.
> >
> > The dirt and moisture that build up in any vehicle can become conductive.
> > It's worse with flooded batteries and their acid mist. Is a GFI and an
> > equipment ground really enough protection? How often have you cheated the
> > ground? What about those times when the GFI keeps tripping and you need
> to
> > charge anyway?
> >
> > How much does a transformer cost? A switcher circuit? What's a kid's
> life
> > worth? What's our future freedom to build what we want worth?
> >
> > I may be wrong, but I don't think it should cost more than a few hundred
> > dollars to add isolation to an already good charger. I know Rich has
> talked
> > about making it optional, though I don't think he has that very close to
> the
> > front of the queue right now. I hope that both he and Russ will make an
> > isolated power stage optional, if not standard, in their chargers.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah and the answer was sooo simple, how did we miss it?
Drive until the batteries are thoroughly dead (a pathetic 17 miles in this case) and
then fake a mechanical failure.
>
> > Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
> > Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
> > (something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders.. oh my.)
>
> I also remember that nobody came close to guessing how he was going to do it
> (drive 200 miles) . But from this foolishness come the one device that would
> put electric car's in the minds and harts of everyone. The wind mill Hood
> Ornament. With its spinning magnets and flashing leds , . this I have
> discovered about the little HO which can be make from a VCR head .
> People have been saving old broken VCR's just for me. They are so happy
> that I've finely come and got them.
>
> Steve Clunn
>
>
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awww cmon now, Pete;
Don't you ever remember your mother saying something like: "
Petey, stay away from that electricity it will kill you! And hurry
up and bring that gas can over here so's we can get this campfire
going!"
Really, it is astonishing how deathly afraid of electricity the
average person is, yet they handle gasoline like it's no more
dangerous than water.
Please people don't take this the wrong way, I am all for safety.
And I agree that all it will take is one incident to give EV's a
black eye forever. But the reason is the average persons
perception of electricity, like it is a living being that is out
to get you.
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>Ok, I think you folks might be acting a bit like chicken little.
>Perfect safety is impossible to achieve, EVERYTHING can hurt you
or kill you
>under the right circumstances. That's why there is risk analysis,
at some
>point additional safety costs more than it's worth.
>
>Any way, isolation is nice, but in order for someone to die by
electrocution
>from a non-isolated charger a NUMBER of things must go wrong
simultaneously.
>
>1) the GFI must fail.
>2) you need a low resistance short from the pack to the
body/frame.
>3) the ground connection to the body/frame must fail (I ground
the body of
>my truck, don't you?)
>4) the body/frame needs to have exposed metal (it's been my
experience that
>painted surfaces don't conduct enough to even notice)
>5) the person touching needs to be barefoot and standing on a
well grounded
>surface.
>6) the person touching must be soaking wet, or something, to
lower their
>personal resistance for enough current to flow.
>
>Isolation just adds one more thing that must fail (and sometimes
does)
>
>I've been sitting here racking my brains and I can't recall the
last time I
>heard about someone dieing from electrocution by household
current. I don't
>know anyone personally who has, I've never read about it in the
paper, or
>seen it on TV. I have seen(on TV) a guy get drunk, climb a
telephone pole,
>short out a high tension wire(big flash), fall 20 feet to the
ground....and
>live.
>
>I think you folks might be a might bit paranoid here.
>
>On Fri, 2003-06-27 at 05:58, Mark Hanson wrote:
>> Excellent post, well said. The key point of someone getting
>> electrocuted by non-isolated chargers and legislating out
homebuilt
>> EV's should be heeded by all.
>>
>> (ps, I wish I had more time to contribute, write longer posts
but i'm
>> always bouncing off the walls here putting out fires and
designing
>> switching power supplies & class-d amps, one of two engineers)
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 4:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
>>
>>
>> > On 26 Jun 2003 at 13:15, Mark Hanson wrote:
>> >
>> > > Don't forget isolation.
>> >
>> > I've been arguing the case for isolated charging for some
years now,
>> > and
>> my
>> > arguments have mostly been dismissed. It's good to have
someone
>> > with
>> Mark's
>> > background and knowledge in agreement.
>> >
>> > IMO, if only a few dozen nonisolated chargers are in service,
the
>> > risk
>> isn't
>> > huge. But the more such chargers are sold, the greater the
risk.
>> >
>> > I don't agree that a GFI is adequate protection. I have a
GFI
>> > similar to the ones in K&W chargers in my junkbox. I pulled
it out
>> > of my kitchen
>> when
>> > it wouldn't trip in response to the test button. GFIs are
>> > electronic devices. They wear out and just plain fail. Do
you test
>> > your GFI every time you charge? Really?
>> >
>> > My concern is for the risk that some 5 year old kid will
someday get
>> > electrocuted while playing around someone's unisolated EV on
charge.
>> > If that should happen, not only will we have one horribly
>> > grief-stricken
>> EVer,
>> > we're going to have a fight on our hands. We'll see
legislation to
>> regulate
>> > or even ban homebuilt EVs. We're apt to lose that fight,
because we
>> > don't have the financial or political strength for it.
>> >
>> > The dirt and moisture that build up in any vehicle can become
>> > conductive. It's worse with flooded batteries and their acid
mist.
>> > Is a GFI and an equipment ground really enough protection?
How
>> > often have you cheated the ground? What about those times
when the
>> > GFI keeps tripping and you need
>> to
>> > charge anyway?
>> >
>> > How much does a transformer cost? A switcher circuit?
What's a
>> > kid's
>> life
>> > worth? What's our future freedom to build what we want worth?
>> >
>> > I may be wrong, but I don't think it should cost more than a
few
>> > hundred dollars to add isolation to an already good charger.
I know
>> > Rich has
>> talked
>> > about making it optional, though I don't think he has that
very
>> > close to
>> the
>> > front of the queue right now. I hope that both he and Russ
will
>> > make an isolated power stage optional, if not standard, in
their
>> > chargers.
>> >
>> >
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = =
>> > = Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
>> > vacation, or switch to digest mode? See
http://www.evdl.org/help/ =
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = =
>> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
>> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
>> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
>> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
>> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send
this to all
>> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
>> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
>> >
>>
>--
>EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
