EV Digest 2888
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: real time wh/mile meter?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Electric boat, more EV projects
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: RS-232 DMM
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Low cost digital meters
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric boat, more EV projects
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by Nathaniel Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Electric boat, more EV projects
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Cross country success
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric boat, more EV projects
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Wavetec
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electromechanical counter
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electromechanical counter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Curtsis DC-96 controller info Needed
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Anybody dump charging ? can I parallel two battery packs together
and charge
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: RS-232 DMM
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) 24 V Hood Ornament
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: real time wh/mile meter?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: RS-232 DMM
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Anybody dump charging ? can I parallel two battery packs together and charge
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Curtsis DC-96 controller info Needed
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: RS-232 DMM
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: real time wh/mile meter?
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Someone bought it?
by "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) FW: DC fed PFC-50
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This came up before. At the time I suggested an interface between an
E-meter with the serial port, the pulse speedometer sensor most newer cars
have, and a PIC type processor driving a display. The ideas was you could
make it not only read current watthours/mile, but also indicate remaining
range in miles at the current rate of use. Maybe instead of a PIC this
could somehow be used in connection with a Palm device. Since the E-meter
port needs to be isolated and only uses a couple of the pins, maybe the
speedometer signal could be introduced inside a custom isolator adapter and
carried on some of the unused pins. A custom program for the Palm could
then do the calculations and the Palm display the results. What do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had my eyes on a sailboat for a couple of weeks.
Jim and I drove out in the TEVan to look at it while
his Fiero
was charging at my house (he miscalculated and didn't
have enough charge to make it home).
It was a good deal and he had cash, so I made him
a deal, buy the boat for me and you can have the
equivalent of a PFC20 (a.k.a. Dodge TEVan charger).
So, I've decided wind power is cool, but I need
to make this thing electric. I have the batteries,
motor and control but need some advice on how to
interface the motor to some type of prop. I have
very little watercraft experience (I do have a Pontoon
boat, canoe and Kuyak, but they are not electric).
Any help would be appreciated!
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: RE: RS-232 DMM
> Looks like the timing of this thread is just right for me.
<Snipped>
> TheWavetek meter seems like it does most of the same things (at least all
> the features I would need) at a much lower cost, but it doesn't look
> like any of these meters are capable of measuring more than one thing
> (volts, amps, or temp) at a time.<
Bryan, that is my surmise as well. I have the Wavetek Meterman catalog in
front of me now, but I they dont specifically list this as a feature. If it
did I would think they would mention it. Maybe an e-mail would be in order.
> I already have an E-Meter, but don't have any experience with how the
RS232 option on the E-Meter works. Could I simply use the E-Meter to monitor
& log volts & amps, and then use something else such as the wavetek meter to
log temperature at the same time? I seem to recall an option to add a
temperature probe to the e-meter. Can the temperature from this probe be
monitored & logged through the RS232 port as well? If so, then perhaps I
don't need any additional equipment at all. And finally, what sort of
software is required on the computer to monitor, log, & make sense of the
info coming from the E-Meter? Since the E-Meter I bought has the 500V
prescaler, do I need anything different for measuring & testing single cells
at 3.6V? Do I just wire it up without the pre-scaler? Will the E-Meter even
work at this low voltage? -Bryan Avery
I am afraid I too don't know enought about serial e-meters to speak to these
questions. Others on this list will undoubtedly be able to tell you all
about them. Heck, I think Rich Rudman used to work for Cruising EQ. I will
say that I tend to think that it is too valuable to use for a battery cycler
project when these RS-232 meters are so cheap. Would be better used in your
EV. If in fact the Wavetek 38XR does NOT monitor Volts, Amps and Temp
simultaneously then I would say that the unit that John Lussmyer recommended
from MPJA would be a great buy, comes with serial cable and software for
windows and the price was only $ 50.00. They even have a discount on 5+
units I am thinking of taking them up on. Since I already have a digital
temperature probe (thought I had lost it, found it in the shed today, lol)
even the Meterman 38XR has pretty much lost its shine for me. Regards, David
Chapman.
Here is the url of the MPJA meter, thanks again John L.!!
http://www.mpja.com/directview.asp product=14311+TE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I stopped at Harbor Freight this
weekend and picked up a digital meter
that measures voltage, current, frequency,
capacitance and has a plug in transistor
checker. It looks like a Fluke 87 with the
same rubber case. On sale for $25 (normally
$40).
Isn't it amazing what 8 cents/hour labor
in China can produce?
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
p.s. They had 'low cost' meters for $5
http://www.harborfreight.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod-
check out www.eboat.org
what size is the boat?
There are a few prop size calculators for just this sort of thing, I can
send you an excel spreadsheed that does prop selection if you want.
Seth
Rod Hower wrote:
>
> I've had my eyes on a sailboat for a couple of weeks.
> Jim and I drove out in the TEVan to look at it while
> his Fiero
> was charging at my house (he miscalculated and didn't
> have enough charge to make it home).
> It was a good deal and he had cash, so I made him
> a deal, buy the boat for me and you can have the
> equivalent of a PFC20 (a.k.a. Dodge TEVan charger).
> So, I've decided wind power is cool, but I need
> to make this thing electric. I have the batteries,
> motor and control but need some advice on how to
> interface the motor to some type of prop. I have
> very little watercraft experience (I do have a Pontoon
> boat, canoe and Kuyak, but they are not electric).
> Any help would be appreciated!
> Rod
> www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm. I might be a guinea pig and try out these orbitals in my GTI.
I'm looking at Optimas now, but if I can save some money for similar
performance....
Especially since I'm looking at a 1000A controller, and these can take
1100 for 5 secs.
I'm intrigued!
-Nathaniel Martin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1983 VW GTI under construction
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info!
Seth, send any info about prop size, RPM etc. my way.
This is a small sail boat that will fit 3 people max
with a flat keel. It probably only weighs 100 lbs
total without sails etc.
My friend from Baldor stopped by this weekend and
said I was EV obsessed!. He works for the University
of Illinios now and is doing a battery equalizer.
I'll post more info about this soon, quite interesting
and not a 'passive system'. They are using a switched
capacitor setup to shuttle charge between batteries.
Rod
--- David Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Rod,
>
> Here's a collection of electric watercraft links in
> which I vaguely
> remember seeing at least one electric sailboat...
>
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/defaultlinksb.asp?tree=554
>
> Hope it helps,
> -Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Electric boat, more EV projects
>
> I've had my eyes on a sailboat for a couple of
> weeks.
> Jim and I drove out in the TEVan to look at it while
> his Fiero
> was charging at my house (he miscalculated and
> didn't
> have enough charge to make it home).
> It was a good deal and he had cash, so I made him
> a deal, buy the boat for me and you can have the
> equivalent of a PFC20 (a.k.a. Dodge TEVan charger).
> So, I've decided wind power is cool, but I need
> to make this thing electric. I have the batteries,
> motor and control but need some advice on how to
> interface the motor to some type of prop. I have
> very little watercraft experience (I do have a
> Pontoon
> boat, canoe and Kuyak, but they are not electric).
> Any help would be appreciated!
> Rod
> www.qsl.net/w8rnh
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took the Prizm on a cross-country to the Power of DC races. Made it up
all the way under her own power (75 miles) including a run up the
Appalachian mountains.
Note: When you go from pulling 50-60 amps at 65mph to pulling over 140
amps you probably did not blow a tire. You're simply going up a steep
mountain grade.
It made it. The one hour stopoff at the Battery Warehouse in Frederick
was enough to make it through the hills and to the strip. I'll write
more about the drive if anyone's interested.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and All,
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've had my eyes on a sailboat for a couple of
> weeks.
What kind, make and size is it? Some boats are
a lot better than others.
What kind of motor/controller will you use and
it's hp/ rpm?
jerry dycus
> Jim and I drove out in the TEVan to look at it while
> his Fiero
> was charging at my house (he miscalculated and
> didn't
> have enough charge to make it home).
> It was a good deal and he had cash, so I made him
> a deal, buy the boat for me and you can have the
> equivalent of a PFC20 (a.k.a. Dodge TEVan charger).
> So, I've decided wind power is cool, but I need
> to make this thing electric. I have the batteries,
> motor and control but need some advice on how to
> interface the motor to some type of prop. I have
> very little watercraft experience (I do have a
> Pontoon
> boat, canoe and Kuyak, but they are not electric).
> Any help would be appreciated!
> Rod
> www.qsl.net/w8rnh
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> As one weak data point: I lost a cell on a battery in my car. The
> batteries were mounted at an angle and the cell that went out was on
> the top row. I was guessing that the angle may have contributed to
> that cell running out.
At one point I was excited about doing "upside down" stuff
to my pack. I wanted to build a battery cycler that would handle the
battery upside down while cycling it aggressively (primarily the charge).
I felt that the gasses that would form would migrate toward the bottom
of the cells; displacement of the liquid, which along with gravity, would
encourage it to more fully saturate the cell tops.
I envisioned it all in a nice cabinet, with a sliding plastic
door for safety. Place the battery posts in some kind of automatic
gravity clamps, press start, the door slides closed and after running
the battery through a full cycle, a 'receipt' prints out that gives you
capacity information, voltages, temperatures, and an ascci chart comparing
the capacity before and after the aggressive charging. Perhaps have the
machine continue running until capacity growth falls below some value
since they seem to usually need 2 or 3 of these cycles.
I've revived a number of batteries with this aggressive charging.
After fully discharging it, a high current charge (40-100+ amps depending
on battery size) will cause the voltage to instantly go high, but then
it quickly starts to march down as the growing battery swallows the
firehose of current. It may initially hit 16 Volts for a second, but it
will usually drop below 15 Volts within 5 seconds or so, and will then
continue all the way down to around 13 Volts before stabilizing and then
starting to climb up at a rate that would be considered normal for a
good battery.
If Cliff is reading this, I would recommend this for your
dying lawnmower batteries and then you could forget about them until at
the very least next summer. But of course whatever you do, be extremely
safe. This aggressive, battery heating charging could be dangerous, but
I've never had a problem with it yet. I do hide behind stuff and wear
protection when I hit the big switches though.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go for It, my $400 fluke sits in a drawer most the time cause of some
features quit woking and I love the wavetec 27 I got. It measures
capacitors in a wide range. The 29 measures inductence too but limited
capacitence. But hurry, Fluke like them too and bought out the company.
I hear and there is gonna be some model consoloidations.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You want a CNT-35 from P&B/Tyco
http://www.pandbrelays.com/datasheets/Time_Delay_Relays/CNT_DS.pdf
You need counter function "J".
These are available from Mouser Electronics.
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=productsearch._listproductsearch&sea
rchtype=starts+with&criteria=cnt35&searchby=PartNumber
They come in three voltage options.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:22 AM
Subject: Electromechanical counter
> Hi all,
> Anyone have a source for an electromechanical type counter that I could
use
> on my BC (Batt Cycler) project?
> Basically what I need is some type of counter that I can set to say 1-99
> events that will count down to 0 upon application of power and then shut
> off. I want to configure this so that I can just dial in X number of
cycles
> on my battery cycler and then go about my business knowing that the cycler
> will shut off after a certain # of cycles. I know I have seen something
like
> this on industrial process machinery, but darned if I can find anything so
> far. Don't really know the proper name for it, Process Control Counter
> maybe? I looked at the local electro/industrial salvage place the other
day
> for 4 hours, but almost heat stroked out and didn't find anything like
that.
> Which is probably a good thing, trunk on car was getting full of other
> goodies. Wish they didn't take credit cards.... DC.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> At one point I was excited about doing "upside down" stuff
> to my pack. I wanted to build a battery cycler that would handle the
> battery upside down while cycling it aggressively (primarily the charge).
> I felt that the gasses that would form would migrate toward the bottom
> of the cells; displacement of the liquid, which along with gravity, would
> encourage it to more fully saturate the cell tops.
>
I'm confused. What would be the point? Wouldn't this lead to the
premature death of the battery? Unless, of course, the point was to see
how quickly you could kill the battery.
I thought SLA batteries had an air gap at the top with a catalyst
installed that was supposed to recombine the O and H2 back into water.
It doesn't seem to me that this would work very well if it was saturated
with liquid while the gasses are rising toward what would normally be
the bottom of the cell.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Anyone have a source for an electromechanical type counter that I could use
> on my BC (Batt Cycler) project?
> Basically what I need is some type of counter that I can set to say 1-99
> events that will count down to 0 upon application of power and then shut
> off.
They are called "event counters". I've got a couple somewhere; I'll
look. Basically, a solenoid advances a multi-digit mechanical counter
like an old car odometer. There is a knob to set the counter to a
desired value, and a switch that opens when it rolls over to all zeros.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a DC-96 but do not have the basic pin out detail.
Anybody know the pin out on the molex connector especially.
It supplies the 12 volts I believe to power the controller.
Thanks.
Danny...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting ideas thanks.
If I can get this DC-96 controller to work I may split the propulsion
pack into two sets.
The DC-96 controller can really only safely handle 84 VDC out max.
I good then split the propulsion pack in half, and operate a controlled
dump charge procedure on each set.
Question is can I parallel two battery packs together and charge ?
Danny...
Danny Ames wrote:
>
> I may get a spare battery pack for dump charging.
> Added plus to store my excess energy generated from the solar array.
> Quick charging also very beneficial.
> Also its good to have two matched sets of batteries for spares.
> If one propulsion battery goes I can swap out a good one off my dump
> pack.
> Now is it best to match that is 18 in car 18 for dumping or more ?
> This option makes it brain dead simple just bridge and wait right ?
> Or I thought maybe have 19 for the dump pack - any thoughts here.
> Use a power relay and bang engage directly shunting the packs.
> All opinions welcome.
> Thanks,
> Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bryan Avery wrote:
> Looks like the timing of this thread is just right for me. I am finally
> getting ready to start playing with the li-ion batteries I got and am
> trying to figure out what equipment I will need to cycle them and get
> some useful measurements at the same time.
You'll need software as well as hardware. There will be software that
comes with the meter, but it might not be satisfactory.
The software that came with my meter only runs on Windows 98, and
not too reliably at that, and I didn't want to put Win98 on my laptop
which is happily running NT 4.
I found this program, which has a freeware demo version that works well
enough for me:
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Hemmingsen/datauk/datalyse.htm
There may be other similar programs out there that work with other
meters. I found this one by searching for the name of my meter.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/460.html
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve et al:
Check out this item on e-bay, would REALLY be a good candidate for a
"Clunnament" < 2421496932 >. Probably have to add some LEDs or something
tho. Heck, you might be able to power it and propel a bicycle or something.
DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I discussed this with Cruising Equipment (before they were swallowed up) and
they were open to using an input pin on the back of the emeter to increment
a number at the end of the serial port message. I wanted it to be an
indicator of "work accomplished" by the battery being monitored. The idea
was to have a contact close and open every X turns of a shaft to indicate
the RPM of a wheel or windmill. The company changed hands and the person who
was going to code it moved on. I never got my firmware.
Maybe we should have a bank where the code from all the special purpose
versions of the firmware could be stored. I now there are versions out there
with 1000 amp limits and 50 amp limits instead of the normal 500 amp limit.
The thing that might cause you problems is the integration time to establish
a stable trend. The existing emeter has four settings (page 23 of my manual)
: 000 is one second, 001 is 4 minutes, 002 is 16 minutes, and 003 is 32
minutes.
If the integration time is too short, the number will be unstable. If it is
too long, the number will change too slowly. I would estimate that one
second would be about right.
One other thing that needs to be considered: most batteries have a coulombic
efficiency of near unity. This means the grid to ground efficiency can be
better estimated using the ampere hours times the "voltage during charge"
rather than the "voltage during discharge". If you use this method, only the
charger efficiency needs to be entered into the software instead of the
battery kilowatt efficiency AND the charger efficiency.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: real time wh/mile meter?
> This came up before. At the time I suggested an interface between an
> E-meter with the serial port, the pulse speedometer sensor most newer cars
> have, and a PIC type processor driving a display. The ideas was you could
> make it not only read current watthours/mile, but also indicate remaining
> range in miles at the current rate of use. Maybe instead of a PIC this
> could somehow be used in connection with a Palm device. Since the E-meter
> port needs to be isolated and only uses a couple of the pins, maybe the
> speedometer signal could be introduced inside a custom isolator adapter
and
> carried on some of the unused pins. A custom program for the Palm could
> then do the calculations and the Palm display the results. What do you
think?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > At one point I was excited about doing "upside down" stuff
> > to my pack.
> I thought SLA batteries had an air gap at the top with a catalyst
> installed that was supposed to recombine the O and H2 back into water.
> It doesn't seem to me that this would work very well if it was saturated
> with liquid while the gasses are rising toward what would normally be
> the bottom of the cell.
I've heard that Optimas can be run in any position, including
upside down. I don't think there is actually any free electrolyte in the case,
and that the electrolyte would only be migrating within the separators.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Hey John,
> Plasma boy!!
> Can you supply ONE of these units for abuse testing. The results will be
> published on the Manzanita Micro Website for all of us to view.
Tell you what...I'm on it tomorrow. I'll stop by and suggest this to my Exide contact,
and
we'll see where it leads. They just might be into doing this, as they seem to be very
interested in having real hard data on just how well these puppies perform.
See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few cautions are in order right here.
I bought a Radio Shack 22-812 meter and reverse engineered the serial port.
-The data coming out the port is NOT ASCII !!! It is a binary dump of the
pixels lit on the LCD. Each bit in the data stream represents a pixel and
they are in no particular order.
-The port is simplex. No return path for control characters or commands. It
is opto coupled so there are no ground loops. The port opto coupler needs
some of the other pins on the DB-9 to be a combination of up and down to get
the +12/-12 power to run the output of the optocoupler.
- If the power goes out, the meter does not come back on. It needs to be
manually turned back on with the front panel button.
- It cannot be remotely switched between modes. If you set it to 200 volts
full scale, it stays that way until you push the front panel button to
change it. The autoscale function works pretty well.
- The software that comes with the meter will not share the port with
anything else. No control over the meter. It is only a data logger.
- Time sharing the meter between two different measurements that are voltage
diverse (a 150 volt pack and a 50 mV shunt) will be very complicated because
of the range changes are sluggish and the pixel based binary data format
will make programming cumbersome.
I have an emeter in my battery cycler and like it very much. I have been
using the RS meter for temperature logging in the resistance mode with a
thermistor. The data needs to be converted from Ohms to Temperature with a
formula in Excel making it cumbersome as well. If you put the temp sensor on
the emeter, you should have everything you need coming in one serial port.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: RS-232 DMM
> Wavetek is an excellent meter, Radio shack has one for $60 if you need to
> keep the budget low.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. That is what John Wayland does.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Anybody dump charging ? can I parallel two battery packs
together and charge
> Question is can I parallel two battery packs together and charge ?
> Danny...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Jun 2003 at 20:08, Danny Ames wrote:
> Anybody know the pin out on the molex connector especially.
Pin 1 = +24v (from traction battery tap, NOT referenced to vehicle ground)
Pin 6 = +12v (enable signal from keyswitch, referenced to vehicle ground)
Pin 5 = vehicle ground
Pin 2 = potbox (0 or full, I forget which)
Pin 3 = potbox (full or 0, ditto)
Pin 4 = potbox wiper
Note that these PMC DCC-96 (not Curtis!) controllers use all 3 potbox
terminals on Molex pins 2-4.
Pin 1 on the Molex connector must be connected. It supplies power for the
logic circuits and also signals low-battery 50 amp current limit. It's a
tap 24 volts from pack negative. The 12v input on pin 6 does NOT power the
controller, all it does is pull in a relay to power it up on the 24 volts.
The high power connections are plainly marked (or at least they were on
mine).
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like using the E-meter is the way to go, especially since I
already have one waiting to be installed in my car. Actually, it's
already partially installed, so I'll just have to drag my dashboard over
to where I'm cycling the batteries. :-) Since I'm just looking for
something to use while breaking in the batteries and don't anticipate
needing it once the car is up and running, this should be just fine.
So I guess the remaining questions I need to answer are:
1. what sort of thermistor do I use with the E-meter (I think someone
else asked this recently, but I don't recall the answer).
2. what is the best way to log and view the data coming from the
E-meter's serial port? Is there any good software for this?
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: RS-232 DMM
>
> A few cautions are in order right here.
>
> I bought a Radio Shack 22-812 meter and reverse engineered the serial
> port.
>
> -The data coming out the port is NOT ASCII !!! It is a binary dump of
the
> pixels lit on the LCD. Each bit in the data stream represents a pixel
and
> they are in no particular order.
>
> -The port is simplex. No return path for control characters or
commands.
> It
> is opto coupled so there are no ground loops. The port opto coupler
needs
> some of the other pins on the DB-9 to be a combination of up and down
to
> get
> the +12/-12 power to run the output of the optocoupler.
>
> - If the power goes out, the meter does not come back on. It needs to
be
> manually turned back on with the front panel button.
>
> - It cannot be remotely switched between modes. If you set it to 200
volts
> full scale, it stays that way until you push the front panel button to
> change it. The autoscale function works pretty well.
>
> - The software that comes with the meter will not share the port with
> anything else. No control over the meter. It is only a data logger.
>
> - Time sharing the meter between two different measurements that are
> voltage
> diverse (a 150 volt pack and a 50 mV shunt) will be very complicated
> because
> of the range changes are sluggish and the pixel based binary data
format
> will make programming cumbersome.
>
> I have an emeter in my battery cycler and like it very much. I have
been
> using the RS meter for temperature logging in the resistance mode with
a
> thermistor. The data needs to be converted from Ohms to Temperature
with a
> formula in Excel making it cumbersome as well. If you put the temp
sensor
> on
> the emeter, you should have everything you need coming in one serial
port.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: RS-232 DMM
>
>
> > Wavetek is an excellent meter, Radio shack has one for $60 if you
need
> to
> > keep the budget low.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want one. :-) I like the idea of an adapter to carry the speedometer
signal on some of the unused pins to display the information on a Palm
device. How about a "plus" version of EVdash with some extra functions
such as a trip meter that could allow for calculation of miles traveled
on the current charge, miles remaining, instantaneous wh/mile, average
wh/mile for the current charge... did I miss anything? An actual
speedometer display could be included as well, but would probably be
redundant for most people.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Mike Chancey
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: real time wh/mile meter?
>
> This came up before. At the time I suggested an interface between an
> E-meter with the serial port, the pulse speedometer sensor most newer
cars
> have, and a PIC type processor driving a display. The ideas was you
could
> make it not only read current watthours/mile, but also indicate
remaining
> range in miles at the current rate of use. Maybe instead of a PIC this
> could somehow be used in connection with a Palm device. Since the
E-meter
> port needs to be isolated and only uses a couple of the pins, maybe
the
> speedometer signal could be introduced inside a custom isolator
adapter
> and
> carried on some of the unused pins. A custom program for the Palm
could
> then do the calculations and the Palm display the results. What do
you
> think?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He's got a feedback rating of 1 for buying something, not for selling it.
Don't forget - he could have bought-it-now himself!
.Steve Coallier
"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
-----Original Message-----
From: The Levine Family [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Someone bought it?
The vapor-drive EV being sold on eBay by solar-solutions, item #2420246849,
seems to have gotten a "buyer" who used the "Buy it Now" option; as a
private aution, we may never know who it was and whether anything will
become of this...but, honestly, was it anyone on this list?
He now has another (very odd) item for sale, but it ain't no EV! I do see he
now has a rating of 1!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Below is a copy of Rich's email response to my questions about using a
PFC-50 in a hybrid pack arrangement. This may be of interest to some
other people out there considering this option.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:52 PM
> To: Bryan Avery
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: DC fed PFC-50
>
> All of some of this needs to get to the main list since there are are
> FEW that will need to know this data.
>
> Bryan Avery wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > I have been following the discussion on the EV list
> > regarding li-ion test results with interest and have some questions
> > for you regarding the possibility of using one of your PFC-50?s to
set
> > up a hybrid battery pack arrangement similar to what Gary Graunke
was
> > suggesting for his Insight. At this point, I am not completely
> > convinced that this is actually going to be necessary or even make
> > much of a difference for my driving (if my average current draw is
low
> > and high currents are only during acceleration perhaps the temp.
rise
> > won?t be as much of an issue), but I would like to get a better
handle
> > on my options now.
> >
> >
> Also
> >
> > I have 94 of the 90 Ah cells, so my first question for you is how
high
> > of a voltage could a PFC-50 (modified to accept the DC current) take
> > on the input side? With all 94 cells, this would be a nominal
> > 338.4V. I?m not sure yet what the voltage would be at full charge,
> > but I would imagine it could be in the 360-380V range.
> The AC side of a PFC charger will handle up to 400 VDC without any
> damage. and NO more!!! READ 400.00 volts, No ripple, no peaks, no
Regen
> pulses!
> The DC side will handle 450 VDC and we hace shipped one making 480
VDC.
> And we are thinking about NO warrenty, But prompt Fair power
stage
> reload and repair. There's not much that can't be fixed, and it's
rather
> cheap compared to the entire unit. Read Share my risk, until we get a
> bunch out there in service, Even Joe and I don't know all the ways to
> Kill PFC chargers.
> >
> >
> >
> > My second question is regarding the 50A current limit. At highway
> > speeds, I am projecting that the current draw from the controller
> > could be in the 50-60A range. Would the buck enhancement offer any
> > additional power at this voltage level, or is that only for lower
> > voltage packs? Is there any other way to bump up the output a bit?
> > If I?m pulling more than 50A from the lead acid buffer pack, I could
> > conceivably completely discharge the lead-acid pack in a short
period
> > of time. I guess at 60A, 13Ah hawkers could still handle the extra
> > 10A draw for about an hour, but I don?t really like the idea of
being
> > limited to slower speeds on a long drive just to prevent completely
> > discharging the buffer pack while there?s still plenty of juice left
> > in the li-ions.
> >
> A PFC50 CAN be dialed up to 75 to 80 amps, It will have thermal
issues,
> and may have some longevity problems. The Buck enhancer will NOT be
> usefull, and You can NOT use it on DC as currently desinged. In Fact
it
> would be Dangerous right now. We can build a DC capable Buck enhancer,
> We just outlined it yesterday. The Buck enhancer will only buy you
help
> when your range pack is 100 volt or more greater than your peak power
> pack. Say 380 volts of Lions, and 156 volts of Hawkers. THEN it pays
big
> time.
> Yes we can bump the output, You get to share the risk. Right now it
> looks like the Lions have a 30 to 50 amp continuous draw, with peaks
to
> 3C, but not for long. You will have to dial up the amps that you wish
to
> suck from the Lions. This is just the amps knob on the main control
> pannle. The voltage that you want to keep the Hawkers at is set by the
> Volts trim pot just like you would for AC work.
> For Dc work right now DON'T use the buck enhancer!!!!, unplug it
and
> reinstall R20 on the controller PCB. With a DC input current sensor,
we
> can get back to having different input currents from output current
> peaks.
>
> >
> >
> > I guess I?m also not quite clear on how the charger would be
> > configured in an arrangement like this. Assuming the li-ion pack
> > described above, powering a PFC-50 to charge a ?small? 336V pack of
> > 13Ah hawkers, should the charger be set to put out a constant
voltage
> > in the 380V range (or whatever the typical charge voltage would be
for
> > a typical lead-acid pack), or should it be set lower closer to what
> > the normal operating voltage would be for the pack? The inverter
has
> > over-voltage protection that kicks in at 380V, so I guess I would
need
> > to stay below 380V in any case.
>
> Yup stay below 380 for the inverter, and the charger will do the rest.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > And what about using the same charger for both charging the
lead-acid
> > pack while driving and also charging the li-ion pack when parked?
> > What sort of additional equipment would be required to accomplish
> > this? Obviously a few relays would be required, but what would it
> > take to have two different configurations and to be able to switch
> > between them easily? I am not familiar enough with your chargers to
> > know how the charging profile is selected. Is it just a matter of
> > adjusting the knobs for voltage and current or is there more to it?
> >
> Umm Ok now we get cute.
> Step one:
> Set the charger for the peak charge voltage of the Lead
Acid
> pack for
> Ev running. Then reconfigure the charger for the Lion peak charge
> paramaters when doing AC line charging.
> plug and play adjust the volts and current Ever time you grid
> charge.
> This works is a pain in the Ass and is cheap.
> Step two:
> Have a 50 amp+ DC ans AC rated relay the Flips the
supply of
> the PFC
> from Lion to Grid cord. Have another relay to flip the output from
PbLa
> to Lions. Or taylor the packs to have the same peak charged voltage.
> Step 2 2nd twist, we have a remote port that is
on the
> controller
> PCB, it can have a remote volts and current settings. remote off it's
> the front pannel adjustments, remote active, and the remote pots
become
> the active charger setting. It works, and I use it daily. It has
issues.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > And finally, what would the cost be for a DC fed PFC-50 (or 50+)
like
> > this?
> A DC fed PFC50 will be $2500 with NO buck enhancer, and will be a bone
> stock PFC50. You need to supply a DC rated switch for the input, or a
> good fuse. If you keep the DC to less than the 50 amp breaker, the
> breaker will never open. OR rip our breaker out, and find a DC rated
> one, and add it in line where the AC one was.
> I will look into Dc rated D frame breakers. I expect them to be in
the
> $100s range and rather bulky.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your response. Any comments (like ?what the
> > hell are you thinking anyway?, etc.) or suggestions are appreciated.
> > J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Bryan Avery
> >
>
> Lots of folks are going to be needing this info. please feel free to
> quote it. We are doing stuff that is outside of it's current design
> window. This is just like buying a stack of lions and going Now
What????
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
> Well OK just a few comments.
> Goldie will have a hybid pack. Lead to lead for the time being.
Yts
> in
> the trunk and SVRs up front. This will give me opperational
experience.
> I need to get some time on it and some app notes written.
>
> We need to find a practical way of charging for this feature, but the
> honest answer is it doesn't cost us much, Well for now anyways.
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
