EV Digest 2895
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Contactor/relay specing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT serializing transformers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: MB80 Discharge curve
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Proper Charging!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: MB80 Discharge Curve
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: concorde lifeline batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Lincoln Arc Welder
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Bad Boy Charger Usage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: OT-Worm Alert SobigC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT serializing transformers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: AOL 8.0
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EMF Shielding for radio reception - will this work?
by "Seth Dallob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Modular charging (was: Proper Charging!)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 2nd try - EMF shielding for radio reception - will this stuff work?
by "Seth Dallob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) MB80 bulk charge
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Waking to the sweet smell of sulfur
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: RS-232 DMM
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 2nd try - EMF shielding for radio reception - will this stuff work?
by Nathaniel Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: How to title a ground-up EV project
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Windmill hood ornament
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) TdS Report #80: A Reporter's Closing Thoughts
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) RE: AC motor/controller suppliers
by "sae" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> I thought SLA batteries had an air gap at the top with a catalyst
>> installed that was supposed to recombine the O and H2 back into
>> water. It doesn't seem to me that this would work very well if it
>> was saturated with liquid while the gasses are rising toward what
>> would normally be the bottom of the cell.
John Bryan wrote:
> I've heard that Optimas can be run in any position, including
> upside down. I don't think there is actually any free electrolyte
> in the case, and that the electrolyte would only be migrating
> within the separators.
Yes, there is no free liquid in an Optima. And yes, there is an air
space between the top of each cell and the cover.
My guess is that under normal circumstances, you don't charge hard
enough to generate much gas. Any gas that is produced is disolved in the
electrolyte, and slowly recombined back into water. There is no
catalyst, which is why the recombination reaction is so slow.
But if you charge too fast or too long, you can produce more gas than
can disolve and recombine in the electrolyte. Then gas bubbles form.
They percolate thru the separator and rise to the top. The cell pressure
increases, which helps speed up the recombination reaction. The gas is
"stored" in the air space until it can recombine over many hours.
If you turn the battery upside down and charge it very hard, I'd guess
that the gas would collect at the bottom of the cell, and force liquid
electrolyte to drip out onto the lid. Up to a point, it would wick back
into the glass mat separator once the battery has had time for
recombination to reabsorb the gas in the bottom of the cells. Sulfuric
acid is amazingly good at "wicking" uphill over a surface. But, I'll bet
you could still get a few isolated droplets that sit in the lid. But
they probably represent only a very small volume; a teaspoonfull or so.
In short, the battery probably doesn't work as well upside down, but it
does work. The difference may be unnoticeable for mild operating
conditions, but worse if you overcharge it hard.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> Found a couple of nice Allen Bradley NO relay/contactors today...
> The only thing the rating plate says is "24 Vdc"... removing the
> domed bakelite cover the contacts are approx .625 diameter and
> have a .050 seperation. They appear to be tin plated, cannot tell
> for sure without further disassembly. Any thoughts? DC.
0.625" dia. is really big; good for over 500 amps. But 0.05" spacing is
really small; like 24vdc max. Is it a true contactor (two contacts in
series) or a relay (only one contact, and the movable part connected by
some kind of flexible jumper)? A contactor would have two 0.05" spaced
contacts in series, which doubles the off-state spacing and would permit
higher voltages (like 48vdc).
The contacts won't be tin; more likely silver oxide.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett wrote:
> Recently I purchased to transformers with the intent of building a
> couple of jacob's ladders for halloween.
> One is a 120v Primary 3000v secondary. (25x boost)
> The other is 120v Primary 9000v secondary. (75x boost)
> if I connect 120 to the primary of the small one, and then connect
> the secondary of the small one to the primary of the large one,
> would this work? What kind of results would I get?
No, it won't work. The core of the transformer will saturate if you put
more than about 20% of rated voltage on any transformer winding. Thus,
you are limited to about 120vac x 1.2 = 144vac max.
When the core saturates, it in effect "disappears". Without the core,
you have nothing but a long piece of coiled up copper wire, with low
resistance and inductance. Thus, the winding current goes up
drastically. If the power source is not fused or otherwise limited, the
winding will quickly burn up.
The right way to do what you want is to connect both transformer
primaries in parallel, to 120vac. Then connect the secondaries in
series, so their voltages add; 3,000vac + 9,000vac = 12,000vac. That
should be enough for a quite satisfactory Jacob's ladder.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's great to see someone testing these batteries. So, if I'm reading your
graph right, you have a test period of just short of 3 hours. Is the yellow
line dropping from about 12.75 volts to about 9.5? Why does the temperature
line have steps -- what were you doing during the test that might cause
this? Finally, what are the units for Amps and Amp Hours?
Have you tried a more typical nominal current, such as 50A? I'm curious to
see the the voltage drop and temperature for this, as some simulations I
have show this to be a pretty typical sustained currents. Also, do you have
the facility to try 100A and 200A loads?
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 7:56 AM
Subject: MB80 Discharge curve
> I've got my battery cycler automagically discharging, logging data, and
> shutting off at a set point. I've put an Excel file (Ugh! 1MB) of the
> data along with a chart up in the files area of the Evercel list at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Evercel-EV/files/ and since there's been
> trouble with the size and the data retrieval I've put a JPG (a more
> manageable 46k) of the chart up on my own repository at
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/Discharge1-1.jpg.
>
> I'm a bit alarmed at the temp rise from 27C at the beginning to 46C at
> the end. I've variously heard not to charge at over 40C from
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] yesterday, and at 50C elsewhere. Shall have to watch how
> long the batts take to cool down after discharge. This was in the
> evening as the ambient temps were cooling down. The load was my
> impressive and growing array of 12v bulbs, which ranged from 19.2 amps
> to 16.4 amps, over the discharge cycle. Note that some numb nuts forgot
> to reset the eMeter and thus you need to subtract the inital Ah reading
> from the final: outta the box this battery gave 54.89 amp hours.
>
> This should be interesting to see whether the capacity grows and the
> heat goes down after the next few cycles. This was per the company's
> reccomended cut off at 9.6 volts. They spec a 7.6 volt cut off at EV
> style amps. The batt is bulk charging now with a less granular logging
> of data every 30 seconds or so vs. this ridiculous 3 seconds. For the
> moment I think I will stick with the company reccs of 386 minutes of
> bulk charge at 11 amps and 1 hour of finish charge at 4amps and see both
> how individual batteries improve after a few cycles and the variability
> accross a number of batteries. Shall watch with interest what Rich gets
> from the MB80 I "donated to science" which UPS should get to him next
> week. Note: shipping batts via UPS is spendy! I have more work to do on
> my cycler (need that automatic cutback to finish charge) and a
> considerable code clean up but its nice to have some of the rudiments
> working. Am also too chicken to go from automagic discharge to
> automagic bulk charge unattended (plus this is straining the data
> logging capacity of my diminutive java TINI). I think I can get this rig
> to automatically calculate internal resistance by using just the load
> and the load+finish charge current to generate a 15amp delta for
> deltaV/deltaA. Seems this might be one of the figures to track over
> time, along with AH.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to David Rodens comment about proper charging...
If you are one of those thinking about taking the cheap way out for charging here's a
little analogy.
Your charging is your refueling? You want cheap? Next time your ICE needs a fill-up
stay away from that expensive 91 octane crap! Fill-er-up with good ol' cheap number 2
fuel oil. At less than a buck a gallon it will seem real cheap while it's goin in.
Comin out's a different story.
disclaimer: This doesn't apply to you diseasel drivers!
I like the concept that Bruce is doing with his modular chargers, but you better be
sure he doesn't drive off without checking all of his batteries for charge. Or at
least I hope he does. (go Ground Rat go)
Stay Charged!
Hump
--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peri:
Sorry my wrestle with Excel this a.m. wasn't more lucid. am writing
some macros to automate graphing this data.
Some answers to your questions: Yes the yellow line is voltage as
displayed on the right y axis. All other data is referenced to the left
y axis. This isn't a "timed cutoff", i.e. I don't stop it at three
hours, that's how long it took to get to 9.6 volts. The squiggle on the
temp lines is due to too granular a reading. These were samples every 3
seconds and the temp would hit a certain level and then bounce up and
down. Am now sampling every 30 seconds which will help smooth this out
(and make the data file more manageable.) I haven't done high rate
charge or discharge and probably won't until I get them in the car.
That is why the poor little MB80 went to see Uncle Rich and Joe for a
little high amperage rest and relaxation. Plus I am limited to 30amps
of charge and presently 20 amps of discharge (altho more regular base
100watt 12vdc bulbs are on order).
Am graphing the bulk charge and performing the first "finish charge"
now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> What do we think of the concorde lifeline batteries? they are AGM
> VRLAs with rectangular plates (as opposed to spiralwound) although they
> claim that they plates are packed very tightly. They also claim low
> internal resistance and high power output.
I have twelve Concorde GPC-1295 AGMs (12v 95ah at 20hr rate) in my
LecHart EV. They were bought Jan 1998, so they are now over 5 years old.
This battery is currently their AGM-1290.
Overall, they've been good batteries. I'd consider them as midway
between floodeds and Hawker or Optima AGMs. Internal resistance, voltage
sag, amphour capacity, price, and life are all about halfway between.
A number of people have used them and had bad results. But, it seems
this was due to using them without a battery management system (as if
they were floodeds), or trying to draw high peak currents (as if they
were Optimas or Hawkers). In my case, I have the current limit on my
controller turned all the way down (so peak current is about 400 amps),
and have my Battery Balancer system which tightly limits SOC.
I bought 12 batteries, but one was used as the accessory battery, #12.
Not surprisingly, #12 is the best in the pack. I recently swapped it
with the weakest, #5.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all. I know how valuable it is to be able to weld when doing EV
projects. I have a 220vac 180amp Lincoln Arc Welder w/many sticks. The
type you put the welding stick in the clamp. I would like to trade for 5
48v contactors or the value of those contactors or if you are in the San
Francisco Bay Area you can borrow it. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Based on information about Edward Ang's Sparrow:
13,700 miles on 13 battery, 156v pack using Excide Orbital batteries.
If Edward's usage was about 160 wh/m, then the calculations show as:
average = 160 wh/m
total dist = 13700 miles
pack size = 156v
performance = 160wh/m / 156v = just over 1 ah/m
energy used = 13700*.16/13 = 168.6kwh per battery
Now that's the type of value we need to be shooting for...
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Thorpe
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:19 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
Otmar,
My Sparrow easily does 150wh/m when driving reasonably. But I've mostly been
commuting the diamond lane at 70-75mph, so my performance for this pack I
just replaced was:
average wh/mile after recharging = 185
total mileage = ~6900 miles
pack size = 156v (YTs)
average performance = 185wh/mile / 156v = 1.2 ah/mile
energy used by each Optima = 7000*.185/13 = 99.6kwh
Still have life on the batteries, but one was dropping out after about 12-13
miles on my 18 mile commute leg. Also, battery pack was never really "new" -
set had been shelved for 2-3+ years before I got them. Now I have a brand
new set and going to see how well they hold up.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
>evranger wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> I'm curious about how many total miles you have on your 7 year old YTs?
On
>> my 3 year olds, the best I've seen is 15,000. Worst was 6,000.
>>
>> Dave
>
>I have 7000 miles on them.
>
>...John
In my case, for my 914 CAPOPE, I use an average of 360 wh/mile when I
drive. This is just taken off the Emeter on several average drives
where I use about 1.5 ah/mile and I have a 240V pack. (1.5 x 240 =
360) The car has 20 Optimas.
I have 4000 miles on my Optimas. They do not have battery monitoring
or a smart charger. (I use a Variac and a timer from McMaster
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0781.html ) My Optimas are
starting to drop off now. My math says that I have run 72kwh through
each battery. If I used less energy, or had more batteries I would expect
more life.
I remember Alan Cocconi claiming to get 30,000 miles on a set of 28
Optimas in his Honda. This is not surprising since I think his car
only uses about 130 wh/mile. If he averages 130wh/mile then I'm
calculating that he gets 140kwh per optima before they wear out. He
also has sophisticated battery equalization, temperature regulation
and relatively low current draws.
Anyone else have real life numbers on their Optimas? I would be
curious to know the mileage, number of batteries and the average (not
best possible, but what you normally do) energy per mile and the
relative condition of the batteries.
-Otmar-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charging amperage was measured with a simple analog meter on the charger.
I guess I missed the Super Bad Boy charger where there is a diode on each
hot leg, the two hot legs are tied together on the DC side of the diodes
and the neutral is used as the negative to the battery pack.
Charger registers 50 amps to the 120 volt battery pack.
Is the house meter reading 50 amps at 240 volts because both legs of the
240 volt outlet are being used to charge 120 volt battery or something
else ?
Regular Bad Boy has a diode on only one hot leg, either the hot leg of a
regular 120 volt outlet or on one hot leg of a 240 volt outlet, and the
neutral is used as the negative to the 120 volt battery pack.
Is the house meter reading 50 amps x 120 volts, 50 amps x 240 volts, or
something else ?
Thanks.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:32:49 -0700 Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked:
> > How much electricity does a Half Wave Bad Boy Charger use to
> charge
> > a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC outlet for
> > one hour?
> >
> > How much electricity does a Full Bridge Bad Boy Charger use to
> > charge a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC
> outlet
> > for one hour?
> >
> > Both chargers use one 120 volt AC hot leg and the neutral.
> >
> > Do they both only use 120 volts x 50 amps or 6000 watts plus what
> > ever is lost in the heating of the cord from the outlet to the
> > meter on the charger?
>
> The current in and current out of a 'bad boy' charger are identicaly
> --
> both their magnitude and waveform. A halfwave 'bad boy' draws all
> its
> current from just one half cycle; a fullwave draws it from both half
> cycles.
>
> The current is all concentrated in a narrow high-current pulse about
> in
> the middle of the AC line cycle. When you say "50 amp", you need to
> specify how it is measured; peak, average, RMS, etc. A circuit
> breaker
> responds to RMS current; charging batteries respond to average
> current.
> In a fullwave 'bad boy', 50 amps RMS is around 30 amps average, and
> over
> 100 amps peak.
>
> > How does the electric company house meter record the usage?
> > Does it record 50 amps for 120 volts or 50 amps for 240 volts?
>
> The power meters people have on their homes measure true power in
> watts;
> actual voltage times actual amps. Thus, it doesn't matter if you
> draw
> power from only one leg of a 240vac service, or if the current
> waveform
> or power factor are bad. You still only pay for the real power used.
>
> Commercial and industrial power meters *do* keep track of power
> factor
> and waveform distortion. The power company charges these customers a
> premium price for bad power factor.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
> Cohen
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boot to DOS from a clean floppy and delete this file.
Victor
David Chapman wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> While catching up on my E-mail today my AVG virus scan caught a Worm/Virus
> called SobigC. Apparently propigates thru e-mail and has been found using
> spoofed address' from Microsoft support etc. It will have an attachment that
> can have most anything as the .xxx extension. IE, pif, zip, doc etc. One of
> the main files is winssk.exe. will be found in the windows directory on your
> main hdd. Havn't figured out how to get rid of it so far. AVG finds it and
> tries to isolate it but windows XP will not let AVG move the file. I don't
> think I my comp has sent out anything dangerous as I have my firewall locked
> down pretty tight and it denies winssk.exe access to the net, but if you
> happen to get an e-mail from me with an unrequested attached file it is
> 99.99% chance it is phony. If anyone finds any good removal methods, please
> let me know. Regards, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett wrote:
> Recently I purchased to transformers with the intent of building a
> couple of jacob's ladders for halloween.
> One is a 120v Primary 3000v secondary. (25x boost)
> The other is 120v Primary 9000v secondary. (75x boost)
> if I connect 120 to the primary of the small one, and then connect
> the secondary of the small one to the primary of the large one,
> would this work? What kind of results would I get?
For several reasons this wont work. With the substantial over-voltage, the
second transformer core would saturate resulting in almost a dead short
circuit. Even if it didn't, the insulation of the second transformer would
not be up to the task. There would be almost a quarter million volts on
the secondary, and I can guarentee that no transformer you can carry will
take that kind of voltage! We have lots of those at work and they are 20
to 30 feet high and weigh tons. Also remember that a quarter million volts
will jump 8 to 12 feet (before you start an arc - and much more afterwards)
so you don't really want to be very close to it.
BTW, in reference to my statement about not being able to carry a
transformer that can take a quarter million volts, I am not considering a
Tesla coil to be a "real" transformer.
-----------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile Radio Operations
Southern California Edison Co.
Ofc: 626-302-8515 - PAX 28-515
FAX: 626-302-7501 - PAX 27-501
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"paul compton (RRes-Roth)" wrote:
>
> Up until now I've been satisfied with AOL. I've found it to ...
...
> If you also use AOL, DON'T UPGRADE!
>
> Solutions...
>
Solution 1: Get rid of AOL *now*. You will be better off.
Solution 2: If you don't think so, see solution 1.
Victor
(Sorry Paul).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
What is a problem to shut off mains if *any* of modular chargers fail?
Yes, you will be left uncharged, but it's no different than if your
only bulk charger fails should that happen.
I'm not calculating increased probability of any of N small chargers to
fail, I'm saying it's trivial to make a circuit to shut off the rest
of them and set off alarm, so your battery is unharmed. You then replace
the failed module and keep goin'
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In response to David Rodens comment about proper charging...
>
> If you are one of those thinking about taking the cheap way out for charging here's
> a little analogy.
>
> Your charging is your refueling? You want cheap? Next time your ICE needs a fill-up
> stay away from that expensive 91 octane crap! Fill-er-up with good ol' cheap number
> 2 fuel oil. At less than a buck a gallon it will seem real cheap while it's goin in.
>
> Comin out's a different story.
>
> disclaimer: This doesn't apply to you diseasel drivers!
>
> I like the concept that Bruce is doing with his modular chargers, but you better be
> sure he doesn't drive off without checking all of his batteries for charge. Or at
> least I hope he does. (go Ground Rat go)
>
> Stay Charged!
>
> Hump
>
> --
> __________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
> http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I slathered this stuff on my controller, would it improve my radio
reception to any noticeable effect?
http://www.lessemf.com/paint.html (about 1/3 the way down the page)
SUPER SHIELD
Reduce or Eliminate EMI / RFI Interference
A general purpose EMI/RFI shielding in a handy aerosol spray for use on
most substrates. Especially good for RF shielding plastic electronics
enclosures. Consists of a tough, durable acrylic base pigmented with a high
purity nickel flake. One to two mil coating provides 40dB - 50dB shielding
across a frequency range of 5 to 1800MHz. About 1600 in�/can coverage at 1.5
mil. Contains no CFC 'S, NO HCFC'S, ozone friendly. 340g (12 oz) aerosol
can. Dries to a dull gray color. Click to see MSDS
Volume Resistivity: 1 Ohm - mil
Dry time: 10 minutes at room temperature
Recoat time: 5 minutes
Excellent adhesion to most plastics
Tested as per IEEE Std. 299-1997
Underwriters Laboratories Recognized File No.: E202609
Flammable aerosol, ships by ground only.
Super Shield (Cat. #A285) ..................................... $24.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've put a graph of my first automatic bulk charge up at
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/bulk1-1.jpg
and in the files area of the Evercel group.
Hopefully my floundering knowledge of Excel is producing better graphs
and they are getting more automagic via the use of macros. Alas the x
axis is not numbers of seconds but number of the observation, which I've
cranked back to once every 30 seconds.
temp rise was only 4C which sounds about right given how much the day
has warmed up and this chemistry is said to be endothermic during
charge. The bulk charge cut off at the over voltage set point of 15.9
after 372.1 minutes of a maximum 386 timed shut off recommended by the
company.
Now to plot the boring finish charge, clean up some code in my discharge
logger, and start again!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> Is it normal for one battery to sacrifice itself for the rest of the
> pack, or did I just get lucky?
I agree with Joe Smalley; you were lucky if you only killed one battery.
What may have happened is that the one battery failed, and became a
"mostly" open circuit to limit the charging current so the rest of the
batteries weren't so badly overcharged. The one that became an expensive
resistor was destroyed in the process, though.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> I bought a Radio Shack 22-812 meter and reverse engineered the
> serial port.
Sounds like this is a model to avoid!
However, I have used the Radio Shack 22-168; it has normal RS-232 ASCII
data, and worked fine. There is another Radio Shack model that also
works; I can't recall the model number, but it is a relabelled version
of the Metex ME-21, which is $59.95 from Jameco.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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I think this would only help if you sprayed every cable and your motor
as well. As far as I know, EMF is going to come from every cable or
device that is switching, or carrying switching current.
-Nathaniel
On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 01:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If I slathered this stuff on my controller, would it improve my radio
reception to any noticeable effect?
http://www.lessemf.com/paint.html (about 1/3 the way down the page)
SUPER SHIELD
Reduce or Eliminate EMI / RFI Interference
A general purpose EMI/RFI shielding in a handy aerosol spray for use
on
most substrates. Especially good for RF shielding plastic electronics
enclosures. Consists of a tough, durable acrylic base pigmented with a
high
purity nickel flake. One to two mil coating provides 40dB - 50dB
shielding
across a frequency range of 5 to 1800MHz. About 1600 in�/can coverage
at 1.5
mil. Contains no CFC 'S, NO HCFC'S, ozone friendly. 340g (12 oz)
aerosol
can. Dries to a dull gray color. Click to see MSDS
Volume Resistivity: 1 Ohm - mil
Dry time: 10 minutes at room temperature
Recoat time: 5 minutes
Excellent adhesion to most plastics
Tested as per IEEE Std. 299-1997
Underwriters Laboratories Recognized File No.: E202609
Flammable aerosol, ships by ground only.
Super Shield (Cat. #A285) ..................................... $24.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> Why don't you put some solar cells under the spinning
> LED's to help charge the batteries?
> This will surely increase your efficiency.
A friend built a cute gadget out of an old computer fan. He positioned
solar cells behind the blades. The solar cells were alternately exposed
to the sun, or blocked by the blades of the fan. Thus, they generated an
AC voltage, which powered the coils of the motor.
Steve Clunn wrote:
>> But from this foolishness come the one device that would
>> put electric car's in the minds and harts of everyone.
Maybe I am the "Hart" Steve referred to? :-)
Last fall, Steve and I proposed an EV Hood Ornament contest. The idea is
to invent a gadget that serves as a hood ornament, and illustrates some
idea (or fallacy) about EVs. Maybe a solar cell, or windmill running the
wheels of a little car. Or 'generator on the wheel' model. Or just silly
blinkinlights. Whatever you like.
I informally offered a $100 prize for the best example submitted to me
within a year of the contest start. OK; Steve has the first (and only)
entry so far. Are you folks going to let him win without a fight? :-)
Entries must be photos or other documentation of a real working model,
not just an idea or paper sketch. The contest closes September 1, 2002,
and I will judge the winner.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>
> Entries must be photos or other documentation of a real working model,
> not just an idea or paper sketch. The contest closes September 1, 2002,
> and I will judge the winner.
So the first challenge is to build a working time machine before we
submit our hood ornament designs...
Ralph
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will he be able to write anything off of your taxes, since it is a 'new'
vehicle ?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 2:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: How to title a ground-up EV project
>
>
> Although I already have an EV (Jet Electrica) I am
> considering building
> something from the ground-up, i.e. fabricating one, likely
> from various
> kit-car and hotrod components, including the frame and suspension.
>
> Since this would essentially be a "new" kit car, I was
> wondering how I would
> deal with the DMV on this. I'm sure it varies
> state-to-state, but does
> anyone know the general issues involved? How do states
> typically handle
> this kind of situation? (I am in WA state, Seattle area.)
> Will I need to
> start with a "donor" car, even if nothing except the serial
> plate and title
> from it gets used? Or, can I "manufacture" my own car get a
> title issue for
> it without going through federal crash tests, etc.?
>
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Lee,
Do you mean September 1 "2003"? Otherwise it's not worth our time for 10
months past the deadline....
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Merwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 2:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Windmill hood ornament
Lee Hart writes:
>
> Entries must be photos or other documentation of a real working model,
> not just an idea or paper sketch. The contest closes September 1, 2002,
> and I will judge the winner.
So the first challenge is to build a working time machine before we
submit our hood ornament designs...
Ralph
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TdS Report #80: A Reporter's Closing Thoughts
Each Tour de Sol allows me to look at the world a little bit differently than I
did before. In the past, my strongest personal interest has been in the
battery electric vehicles, since they were what got me started in writing these
Reports and that is what I now drive every day: my 1995 Solectria "Force".
Since I cannot bring the Force to the Tour, I've rented a Toyota Prius for the
actual event these past three years, which also does my heart good.
The first thing that got my eye was the electric vehicles that EnviroMotive of
Canada brought to the event. Both the Dynasty IT and the Heibao EV are off-
street vehicles, at least as they are currently configured, that are looking
for an off-street niche market. We have seen such things in the past that
didn't recognize so clearly that by staying away from the highly regulated
world of on-street transportation they might avoid the pitfalls of being small,
slow, and a bit distinctive. In parks, resorts and other such places the fact
that they are small, slow, quiet and distinctive may lead to the success they
deserve.
I have surprised myself a little bit by finding the Allison hybrid bus so
intriguing. Upon reflection, it is the fact that the entire hybrid mechanism
is built into what would otherwise be called the transmission that makes me
smile. The units it replaces are found in several different types of vehicles
that could benefit from being hybrids. Large short range delivery trucks, dump
trucks, and such all spend a lot of their time in the portion of the diesel
torque curve that spews smoke and wastes fuel, namely acceleration from stops
or slow speeds. The facts that this hybrid transmission, in pure-electric
mode, accelerates better from a standing stop, plus it reduces emissions
significantly, plus it increases mileage significantly all strike me as a win-
win-win situation. And this is not an experiment. These buses are in service
now.
Another story that has knocked me back on my heels is the several variations on
the theme of biofuels we saw, especially when the "bio" comes from waste
vegetable oils. The story of the school on North Haven island in Maine using
the fryerlator oil from a local restaurant as the stock for their biodiesel
fueled generator is cool enough. Add the facts that the used oil does not have
to be shipped back to the mainland for disposal and equivalent amounts of fuel
oil do not have to be brought to the island to power the generator and the
story becomes even more compelling. The variety of the biofuel entrants, high
schools through companies, is also worth noting.
It was good to once again see fuel cells demonstrated at the Tour de Sol. (The
first fuel cell vehicle in the Tour de Sol was brought by a high school team in
1998. The first car was in 1999.) While the GM Hy-wire was mostly a static
display, the GM HydroGen3 fuel cell van taking people around the Capital Mall
in DC was quietly (very quietly) showing a promise of the future in motion.
And finally, I surprise myself when I realize that I almost take the battery
electric vehicles entered in the Tour for granted. The level of refinement is
often so very high that it is easy to forget how much work goes into making
them look so effortless. I also find myself not paying as much attention as I
should to the fact that the entrants from schools are much more about education
than transportation. Gregory Taylor, advisor to the Vegginator team said it
well; "Any time the kids' hands are with something other than books or paper
or, now, computers, where it is something physical that they are working on and
they can see the results, they light up. It's a cool thing to see."
The fact that the Tour de Sol is still here 15 years later speaks to the fact
that the event has not only helped promote and invent the future, but also
recognized that the very act of thinking ahead changes what is possible in the
future. This year's hub-and-spoke rally helped all the people involved spend
more time together, even though the event itself was shorter, because less time
was spent in managing the logistics of moving down the road. The teams once
again have demonstrated their inventiveness and hard work with entries that
both continue the idea of environmentally sound transportation and move it
along. Sponsors find it a good place to show their goods and services, and
also their commitment to public health and environmental sanity.
I hope those of you reading these Reports will look into becoming involved at
the next one. Whether you come as entrants, sponsors, exhibitors, volunteers,
or attendees I think you will find being a part of the Tour de Sol, the Great
American Green Transportation Festival, is something you will not forget. I'll
see you there!
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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If you don't need tons of power, how about BLDC? Or MTS drive will take up
to 600V but I think draws only 150A peak. It has full regen capability, and
is probably more efficient than AC. I seem to recal it being in the upper
90's for most of the power band. The motor is about 150 lbs (a guess) and
the controller can't be more than 40. The controller is a bit bulky though.
When it was in our series hybrid, we never saw more than 80A draw with the
propane generator on.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Martin
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 1:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AC motor/controller suppliers
Recently, I've been casually shopping around a bit here and there and have
found three suppliers for AC drive components. Metricmind selling Siemens
(looks like reasonable prices and lots of good technical information),
ACPropulsion selling their own (no response from quote/information request),
and Enova Systems (selling Panther components? - no quotes/information
requested). Anyone know of more suppliers/manufacturers of AC drive
components? I'm currently trying to match up drivetrain components in terms
of current requirements and power output (low current/high voltage coupled
with low torque/mid-to-high power would be optimal setup) to the spec ranges
of various battery technologies. If I am actually able to get the glider I
want, then I will have a lot of research to do in order to do it justice
with good drive components for conversion. I also need to continue research
on the batteries...so far, all I have decided is that I want to try to use
something better than lead in the battery category, I want good range, and I
want respectable power (although I'm not looking to build a racer). Also,
the AC technologies look more attractive to me in how they relate to some of
the advanced battery technologies (lower current draw - higher voltage in
typical implementations). They also seem to have lower torque for same power
output (unless I'm mistaken on this part) and of course, there's always that
desirable regen feature. On the downside, they seem to come with the
disadvantages of additional weight, bulky controller, and a price factor of
about 2X (before even considering the batteries). Of course, Metricmind
seems to have 10-year warranties on their stuff, so that's kinda like buying
a new car there... better guarantee than with any DC-drive systems I know
of. Still.... I think I'd like to keep looking before I make any
conclusions on what to replace the dinosaur burner module with. Am I
off-base with my assumptions about the AC / battery matchup? Any other
sources for AC drive components (or good non-forklift or aircraft starter -
inspired DC motors capable of regen)? Any thoughts?
-Doug Martin
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