EV Digest 2909
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) New Portland YTs all taken
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: ev insurance
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Box material
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Public design charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Rolling bodies (was: New EV to go...)
by "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Charger cost (was: 6 hours...)
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: ev insurance
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: New Portland YTs all taken
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: New Portland YTs all taken
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ev insurance
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Public design charger
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ev insurance
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: ev insurance
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) FW: New EV to go into production
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Public design charger
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Kit car glider for sale Bradley GT
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: ev insurance
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Public design charger
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Public design charger
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Ground Fault solved
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: ev insurance
by "Murray Forster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: FW: New EV to go into production
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Max equalizing voltage for Sparrow charing ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: A Buck a Watt
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: Max equalizing voltage for Sparrow charing ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
30) EV life cycle cost (was: RE: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just to let everyone know, all four of us PDX EVers came through.
All YTs that will be delivered Friday are properly spoken and
paid for.
Sorry to get anyone's hopes up (Myles).
Now to find out soon just what the eDatsun can do.
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
'82 Datsun PU, soon with at least 26 brand new YTs
'02 Aqua Prius, soon to see a little less use
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Farmers here too. My agent didn't care a bit that it was electric and we
got the "Drive it less than 50 miles insurance and tags for Missouri.
I have my Jet insured, along with all of our other cars, with Farmers.
They didn't bat an eye. It was cheap too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fowler wrote:
> batteries have arrived, time to mount them all. In the back 60kg of
> batts in a box 80cm x 30cm, height 25cm bolted to structural members
> of the car. mount the remaining 60kg in the engine bay
Your LiIons are a special case. They don't leak acid, but they do burn.
So, I would favor a construction material that can't burn. Since the car
is steel, I would use steel for the battery box. As others have noted,
60kg is a pretty light pack, so you shouldn't have many structural
problems.
In the more typical case (very heavy lead-acid batteries), strength and
corrosion resistance are much more important. Here are some comments I
can add to the excellent dialog that's taken place so far.
Aluminum -- Strong if used right. Fairly easy to cut, bend, drill,
bolt, and rivet. Hard to weld or glue. Good corrosion resistance as long
as it doesn't touch steel or other metals. Conductive. Worthless for
thermal insulation (heat goes right thru it).
Steel -- Strong. Easy to drill, bolt, rivet, and weld. Hard to cut or
bend. Easy to attach to an existing steel frame or body. Poor corrosion
resistance. Conductive. Worthless as insulation.
Wood -- Strong if used right. Cheap and available. Easy to cut, drill,
screw, bolt, or glue. Burns! Nonconductive if dry, but not reliable as
electrical insulation. Destroyed by battery acid (don't use around
floodeds)! Modest thermal insulation.
Wood derivitives (MDF, hardboard, etc.) -- Similar to wood, but easier
to use and somewhat stronger. Heavy. Still burns. Better resistance to
moisture and battery acid, but will still fail (soak a piece in battery
acid and see what happens). Poorer electrical and thermal insulator.
Plastics -- Varies considerably between types. Polyethylene,
polypropylene, polycarbonate, polystyrene, and ABS are unaffected by
battery acid. Generally easy to cut, bend, glue, or weld. Not
particularly strong, and hard to attach structurally to steel-bodied
cars. Burns. Non-conductive. Good electrical insulator. Modest thermal
insulator (but foam plastics are excellent).
Composities -- Combinations of two or more materials, like fiberglass
or wood fibers in phenolic or plastic. Can be strong, but are often
tricky to work with to get the most out of them. Common
polyester-fiberglass is damaged by battery acid, but epoxy-fiberglass is
not. Decking made from wood fiber and recycled polyethylene milk jugs
resists acid, but is heavy and weak.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Hudson suggested a open source charger. It sounds like a project
that a lot of people are interested in. But Victor Tikhonov hit on a key
problem...
> "If it fits the specs I want". Trouble is everyone wants different
> specs.
Whether consciously or subconsciously, everyone wants a custom designed
charger just for them, but they don't want to pay anything for the
design.
> Also, I'm afraid, selling such a charger for the cost (if it ever
> gets built) will not save much money.
And this is the second big problem. People expect to save money building
their own charger. But in reality, building one of anything costs more.
Otmar wrote:
> Here's what I'm thinking for a public project charger:
>
> 5 amps input (~1000 watts at 220V) per module.
> Up to 2 modules per case. 3" square case about 10" long.
Kind of an awkward form factor. Hard to find inductors, capacitors,
circuit breakers etc. that fit.
> Air cooled with a 3" fan on one end.
Implies it is not waterproof or sealed. Tough to make it survive in an
automotive environment.
> Modules configured for different voltages by changing transformer
> windings... Magnetics could be hand wound toroids
Switchmode power supply tranformer design is quite tricky; not something
for the average person to try to build. Toroids in particular are nasty
to wind.
> 1 module could be configured from 96V to 156V nominal.
> Modules in series or parallel for more voltage or current.
Accurate power sharing is another tricky area of design.
> Topology could be a current fed push pull running at 68 khz.
> Two switches, one inductor and one transformer give a PFC
> isolated supply.
This topology usually requires extra switches for reasonable transient
response and to manage overvoltage spikes. There are special PWM
controller chips for it.
> The charger processor would know the input current, input voltage,
> output voltage and at least one internal temperature. It could
> estimate the output current (for protection) if no master controller
> was watching it for the charge algorithm.
Add a microcomputer provides considerable flexibility, but also
considerable complexity. Now you have to deal with programming, software
bugs, watchdog timers, fail-safe circuitry if the micro crashes, etc.
> Thoughts anyone?
For the above reasons, I think a high-power computer-controlled
switchmode charger is just too ambitious for a public design to be built
by amateurs. They are hard enough for professionals to build!
If one wants a high quality reliable charger, the best solution is
really to just bite the bullet and buy one of the commercial chargers.
They only look expensive until you try to do it yourself!
But, for various reasons, there will always be a need for simple
low-cost chargers that are safe and won't murder batteries. Toward this
end, I think we could provide some basic charger designs that will do
the job. They would be easy to construct, adaptable to any desired
voltage, and include the safety devices and charge control circuitry
that amateurs usually leave off because they don't know they need them.
So, here is how I would approach a public design charger:
- 60 Hz transformer for isolation
easy to find new, used, or surplus for any voltages
easy (though tedious) to rewind
- LC filter to improve power factor
maximizes power you can get from a given AC receptacle
can use fixed values to optimize it at full power, or
switches or phase control to "tune" it
- phase control for charge voltage and current control
SCRs and triacs are cheap, reliable, easy to use
- use a commercial battery charger control chip
example: UC3906, UC3909
- include a GFCI, circuit breaker, and Intermatic mechanical timer
to insure safety and that it will shut off no matter what
Anything else you want to add is a "luxury" (computers, digital
readouts, etc.).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jorg -
You might try Roy Brizio Street Rods in South San Francisco, they're actually
world-reknowned.
I'm not sure if they'd do it, but if not they would probably know someone who would.
http://www.roybriziostreetrods.com
Cheers,
.Steve Coallier
"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
-----Original Message-----
From: Jorg Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Rolling bodies (was: New EV to go...)
OK, we're in the same neighborhood Bill (assuming you're talking Menlo
Park CA not Menlo Park NJ), how do I find my "local neighborhood hot rod
chassis builder"? It'd be great if you could name some names... I know
a lot of those exist in the L.A. area, but it's a different world up
here in Silicon Valley.
jorg
ps And what look will they give me when I tell them with a straight face
that I want a hot rod that looks like a Honda Insight?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New EV to go into production
Hi Jorg,
Just go see your local neighborhood hot rod chassis builder.
They supply a certified welded rolling chassis with wheels, suspension,
brakes, steering, rearend, transmission, engine, body but I'm sure they
would not mind selling one without the engine or body. Then you should
be able to put in that big low center of gravity battery box and chose
all your gear ratios, motor, etc.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:27:04 -0700 "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> I don't mean to be a downer, but my eyes just glaze over at people's
> new
> electric car projects. The hurdles to making a full-on electric car
> are
> enormous - including lots of regulatory hurdles, red ink, etc. Just
> ask
> the AC Propulsion people why the tZero hasn't made it yet. Or the
> tropica folk. Or the 3-wheeler...
>
> Biggest thing is, when someone else builds it, they not only lock you
> into a style of car (sport car, sedan, truck, 4x4, whatever), they
> also
> lock you into a type of propulsion, and a battery technology.
>
> I'm sick of being forced to pick between the two extremes of
> expensive
> pre-built electrics whose manufacturers are going broke, and
> inexpensive
> old gassers in need of lots of conversion labor.
>
> I don't want an electric vehicle anymore. Right now what I want is a
> cheap, LIGHT, chassis with a big, low-center-of-gravity battery box.
> Give me a speedometer, ammeter, and voltmeter, make it rear-wheel
> drive,
> and give me a way to pick my own gear ratio, my own motor, my own
> controller, my own battery.
>
> Surely, someone...
>
> jorg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Brad Waddell
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: New EV to go into production
>
> Not sure if you have all seen this new page yet, still under
> construction.
> Another ambitious project that hopefully will see the road!
>
> http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
>
> brad
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> For the rest of us there are plenty of other choices. If you choose
> luxury charger which does everything, pay for it and don't complain.
Hey, I'm not complaining. I have four Brusa chargers and think they're
great. They are plug-in-and-forget convenience. If I need to, I can
reprogram them for all sorts of charging profiles, with temperature
compensation, etc. I never worry about cooking my batteries or burning down
my house when I plug in my vehicles. Do I mind paying for that flexibility
and peace of mind? Not really.
That said, if I had to buy a new charger, I'd look for something made in the
USA, if possible. Why? Because these Brusa units, even though they were
installed in my Solectria vehicles when I bought them, would probably have
to be shipped to Switzerland for repair if something in them breaks, meaning
lots of down time waiting for the thing to come back. And because they were
in the vehicles when I bought them, I never looked at price, but if I had to
replace them, I'd probably try to find something with similar capabilities
at a lower price. Call it human nature.
So, the bottom line here is I think someone could take a really nice charger
like Rudman's PFC20 and add a digital controller to it and have the
functionality of the Brusa NLG412 and still have the thing priced under $2K.
Considering the cost of a new battery pack is probably at least that, it
seems like a smart investment.
Speaking of which, give me a break on the pricing issue. I haven't had to
actually go out and shop for an EV charger and only knew that the Brusa
units with all the features I wanted were several thousand bucks. I
admitted I was guessing high. So sue me.
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Allstate. Also, remember to get a stated value
policy, because you want to get the value of the
electronics (8,000), not the value of the car as a
depreciated ICE. Often it won't cost that much
more...
--- Mike Brandon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Farmers here too. My agent didn't care a bit that it
> was electric and we
> got the "Drive it less than 50 miles insurance and
> tags for Missouri.
>
>
> I have my Jet insured, along with all of our other
> cars, with Farmers.
> They didn't bat an eye. It was cheap too.
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Travis or Eric-
How about those used YT's?
Got any left?
I'd at least take some for sizing an inside-cabin battery bank....better
still if some of your used ones have some life left.
Please let me know and maybe you could bring them Thursday night and I'll
take them off your hands.
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Anderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is coming down from Bellevue on
Sunday to score our old batteries.
Maybe you could email him and see how many each of you want.
He wants mechanical samples with the possibility of some good
ones, too.
There should eventually be about 22 "good" ones from me and close
to 20 from Travis. The more that get put to good use, the better.
Travis and I only want our $3.00 core charge.
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>--- Original Message ---
>From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Travis or Eric-
>How about those used YT's?
>Got any left?
>I'd at least take some for sizing an inside-cabin battery bank....better
>still if some of your used ones have some life left.
>Please let me know and maybe you could bring them Thursday night
and I'll
>take them off your hands.
>
>-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try Amica - great company - great rates, fast claims 800-24-AMICA
nationwide. They were very helpful on my GEM electric car, even though it
was not in their computer at first.
brad
At 03:55 PM 07/08/2003 -0700, you wrote:
Hi
Does anyone have a recommendation for an insurance company for EV coverage?
I currently have Safeco (for 25 years) and my agent says they will not
insure "substantially modified" vehicles. I'll be converting a stock sedan,
so there shouldn't be anything too unusual, from an EV perspective.
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could offer the isolation transformer as an option or a recommended
transformer from Amveco etc for the customer to order.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Public design charger
> Otmar wrote:
> >
> > At 6:26 PM -0700 7/7/03, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > > > Thoughts anyone?
>
> >
> > I like the idea of separating out the controller. I see the
> > controller as a technologically simple thing to make, it can run at
> > low voltage, makes little heat and therefore could even be a bare PCB
> > sitting somewhere and not cause safety issues.
> >
> > As for the separate isolation stage, I guess I feel that low cost non
> > isolated chargers are well covered by Rich and his PFC series. So I
> > don't see the value in making a competing device.
> > I could see a 60hz isolation transformer being utilized in a car, but
> > then I would just add it to one of rich's chargers.
> >
>
> Thanks Otmar for the tip of the hat here.
>
> I just found the Amveco catalogs.
> These are the lightest 60 Hz iso transformers that I can find.
> 10 amps right or 1200 watts from 120 and 2400 from 240 VAC.
>
> 1200 VAC at 60 hz 18.3 lbs and 45 watts loss at rated power. 6.4 inch
> core, 3.00 tall.
> That would double the weight of a PFC20.
> Sigh!!! This is the cost of Iso. I am looking at 30 lbs to support a
> PFC20s 20 to 25 line amps.
>
> HF really looks good here. But it takes more silicon, about 2x more.
>
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had my EV's over the last 30 years with Erie Insurance although I just
have liability to keep it simple.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:55 PM
Subject: ev insurance
> Hi
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for an insurance company for EV
coverage?
> I currently have Safeco (for 25 years) and my agent says they will not
> insure "substantially modified" vehicles. I'll be converting a stock
sedan,
> so there shouldn't be anything too unusual, from an EV perspective.
>
> Peri Hartman
> Seattle
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I and several others on list use farmers. Progressive, Geico, and state
farm have been mentioned by others, and I am looking into AAA. They seem to
have the better deals, and currently they are "looking into" how to cover my
EV.
The consensus seems to be to have an example of another agent that is doing
it for someone else when you go to them to talk about it. If a certain
agent won't do it, it is likely that another agent (even if they represent
the same company) will. It is highly dependent on the individual agents
involved.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peri Hartman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:55 PM
To: evdl
Subject: ev insurance
Hi
Does anyone have a recommendation for an insurance company for EV coverage?
I currently have Safeco (for 25 years) and my agent says they will not
insure "substantially modified" vehicles. I'll be converting a stock sedan,
so there shouldn't be anything too unusual, from an EV perspective.
Peri Hartman
Seattle
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1000 lbs of Lead (240v) is ~6kwh usable.
720 lbs of Ni-Zn (240v) is ~13kwh usable.
360 lbs of Ni-Zn (120v) is ~6kwh usable.
Given cycle life, Ni-Zn should be cheaper. Much less than AGM, just slightly more than
flooded.
So, why 1000lbs?
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> 1000 pounds of lead, plus 1-2 riders, plus motor, wires, charger,
> controller, etc......
>
> Probably more than 1400. Right?
>
> Lonnie
>
>> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > >
> > > Maybe a sand rail frame with a kit body over it. They are light.
> > > Sub 1000 pounds with the motor and tranny in and
> > > running.....Lawrence Rhodes......
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Otmar wrote:
At 6:26 PM -0700 7/7/03, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Thoughts anyone?
Hope I'm not rewinding too much...
but for an On-Board charger, how about increasing
(multiplying or mudulating) the input frequency, which
should allow you to use a smaller (lighter) transformer?
Off-board... go ahead and use a 50 lb. 60 Hz transformer.
Is there a problem with the complexity or cost of circuitry
to modulate/switch the 60 Hz wave?
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no other information about this vehicle and am not in any way connected.
But for 200 bucks I thought someone in San Diego area might want to electrify it.
<http://www.kitcars.com/Classifieds/AdDetails.asp?classified_id=2604>
Stay Charged!
Hump
--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Westfield National has worked out well for me, insuring my EVs for 15 years
(I've been trading with the company for over 30 years). Liability was no
sweat - after a call to the head office, my agent knew all she needed to
about the Comuta-Car. More recently, they wrote a declared value
comperhensive policy on my Force.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> You could offer the isolation transformer as an option or a recommended
> transformer from Amveco etc for the customer to order.
Every Russco charger is equipped with an externally accessible terminal
block for mounting of a buck/boost transformer for under 84 volt/over
120 volt battery packs.
A 120/120 isolation transformer could be connected to this terminal
block for isolation.
In five years of charger production there have been ZERO request for an
isolation transformer.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jul 2003 at 8:34, russco wrote:
> In five years of charger production there have been ZERO request for an
> isolation transformer.
But have you explained to your customers what the option's benefits are? Do
they even know it's available?
Remember, GM said there was "zero demand" for the EV-1, too. In a
capitalist economy, you don't create demand without advertising.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe I've found my leakage that trips the GFI during finish charge. There is a
Filter Concepts LE15 AC filter between the pack and the DC to DC convertor's input.
This filter has 2 caps that connect the pack to ground. I've isolated the filter from
chassis and no more GFI tripping.
Does anyone have an idea why the folks the built the Tropica would have put an AC
filter here? The schematic for the filter can be found here
http://www.filterconcepts.com/ac/le_series.html
thanks,
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Are there any studies available showing the accident frequency of
electric vehicles (not hybrid) compared to ICE? One would think
insurance agents should be happy to insure an electric: (most cannot
possibly be driven at high speeds and are limited to say 70 km/day).
Also it could be possible to show that drivers of these can be
be statistically proven to be on average more thoughtful and safety
concerned? That would change if EV's became common but they
currently must be a lower risk group?
Regards,
MF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1000 pounds of lead = 1000/72 = 13.888 T145's, lets call it 14
14 x 145 minutes/60min per hour x 75 amps x 6 volts x .80 (for 80 percent
DOD for 500+ cycles) = 12180 watt hours
or 12+ kilowatt hours >>>> ~6 kwhr usable
if you drive conservatively on secondary roads (35 mph) for max range.
What is the discharge curve for Ni-Zn ?
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:29:13 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 1000 lbs of Lead (240v) is ~6kwh usable.
> 720 lbs of Ni-Zn (240v) is ~13kwh usable.
> 360 lbs of Ni-Zn (120v) is ~6kwh usable.
>
> Given cycle life, Ni-Zn should be cheaper. Much less than AGM, just
> slightly more than flooded.
>
> So, why 1000lbs?
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > 1000 pounds of lead, plus 1-2 riders, plus motor, wires, charger,
> > controller, etc......
> >
> > Probably more than 1400. Right?
> >
> > Lonnie
> >
> >> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > > >
> > > > Maybe a sand rail frame with a kit body over it. They are
> light.
> > > > Sub 1000 pounds with the motor and tranny in and
> > > > running.....Lawrence Rhodes......
>
> --
> __________________________________________________________
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What should be the max voltage during equalizing for a flooded lead acid
battery (Optimas, Trojans, etc.) ?
A cousin of mine has a Sparrow with a 156 volt pack .
191.1 volts is gasing voltage at 2.45 volts per cell or 7.35 volts for a
six volter or 14.7 volts for a twelve volter.
215 volts is 8.27 volts per cell and is way too high unless the manual
says otherwise. I would not let my batteries go above 7.75 volts for
any reason and normally flooded lead acid batteries will not get much
above 7.5 volts after they have gone through 20 or 30 cycles, but that
has been my experience with Trojan lead acid deep cycle golf cart types (
J250's, T145's, & EV137's).
I thought equalizing charge was when batteries were brought just slightly
above the gasing voltage for an hour or two.
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> A Buck a Watt is typical for a switching battery charger.
>
Lets see that's $5000 for a PFC20 and $11,000 for a PFC50.
Ummm I would KIll to get these prices.
I don't think the EV list wants me to up my prices by that much.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the batteries
should be broken in. I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I could
keep tabs on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost exactly
1/2 KWH/mi. At 8c/KWH (Puget Sound Energy) that is 4c/mi. Assuming a
gallon of dead dinosaurs is $1.60 (about what it is here on the Seattle
Eastside) that works out to an equivelant of 40mpg.
Don't know if these numbers are as would be expected. Seems pretty OK to me
though. Zero emissions, no stops at gas stations, and good enough range for
my city errands (some highway too.) Now that the batteries are broken in, I
just might attempt to test the range. I'm hoping for 60 miles. My plan
will be to do my usual 12-20 or so miles each day for a few days, but
without charging overnight. That way I won't be too far from home when I
get close to the DOD limit. I don't have an eMeter or other fancy stuff,
just a big 'ol analog 0-150v voltmeter. 1.75v/cell is what I understand to
be a good number to use for a bottom limit. 60 cells * 1.75v = 105 volts,
so I will head home when I am getting close to that. I also have a towbar
if necessary.
Overall life is good with an EV!
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your miles/KWH is about right, but have you considered your cost of
batteries/mile?
One thousand $$$$$$$$$ for batteries that last 10,000 miles is ten cents
a mile, more than your electricity cost.
There goes your 40 MPG down to less than half that.
EV's are a hobby. That's fine. But don't expect an EV to cost less to
operate than the gasoline car you already have. The EV is extra
insurance, extra registration, and the cost/mile is greater than an
equivalent current gasoline car.
I'm sure many will disagree, but the figures speak for themselves.
After 3 EV's of my own, extremely aggressive driving in my area have
forced me to a safer conventional car that is fully depreciated and cost
perhaps $50 per year for maintenance. Plus 30 mpg for gas at about 6
cents/mile, that's my cost.
Dave Anderson wrote:
>
> I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the batteries
> should be broken in. I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I could
> keep tabs on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost exactly
> 1/2 KWH/mi. At 8c/KWH (Puget Sound Energy) that is 4c/mi. Assuming a
> gallon of dead dinosaurs is $1.60 (about what it is here on the Seattle
> Eastside) that works out to an equivelant of 40mpg.
>
> Overall life is good with an EV!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes all true. Hobby is right. :) The batteries do indeed bring up the
cost per mile way up. No doubt that overall it's more "expensive" than
using a gasoline car. But what the heck, it's fun. I have a homebuilt
experimental aircraft as well. I *never* total up the costs of running
that, it would spoil it all. If I just measure these things by dollars,
they make no sense at all.
The insurance premium was $200/yr liability only. It's just a 1981 Escort,
worth about $50 as a car, so no collision. Here in WA state, the
registration was the same as for a ICE. Too bad I can't get a tax credit,
or off-peak electricity.
----- Original Message -----
From: "russco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
Your miles/KWH is about right, but have you considered your cost of
batteries/mile?
One thousand $$$$$$$$$ for batteries that last 10,000 miles is ten cents
a mile, more than your electricity cost.
There goes your 40 MPG down to less than half that.
EV's are a hobby. That's fine. But don't expect an EV to cost less to
operate than the gasoline car you already have. The EV is extra
insurance, extra registration, and the cost/mile is greater than an
equivalent current gasoline car.
I'm sure many will disagree, but the figures speak for themselves.
After 3 EV's of my own, extremely aggressive driving in my area have
forced me to a safer conventional car that is fully depreciated and cost
perhaps $50 per year for maintenance. Plus 30 mpg for gas at about 6
cents/mile, that's my cost.
Dave Anderson wrote:
>
> I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the
batteries
> should be broken in. I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I
could
> keep tabs on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost
exactly
> 1/2 KWH/mi. At 8c/KWH (Puget Sound Energy) that is 4c/mi. Assuming a
> gallon of dead dinosaurs is $1.60 (about what it is here on the Seattle
> Eastside) that works out to an equivelant of 40mpg.
>
> Overall life is good with an EV!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plus if you want to go even further, it's absolutely ridiculous how much
time, effort, and $$ I have put in to what essentially remains a 1981 Ford
Escort. The other day I went fishing. It cost me about $800 to bring home
a string of trout worth about $10 at the market. It's not about the
destination, it's about the journey and the experience.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
Yes all true. Hobby is right. :) The batteries do indeed bring up the
cost per mile way up. No doubt that overall it's more "expensive" than
using a gasoline car. But what the heck, it's fun. I have a homebuilt
experimental aircraft as well. I *never* total up the costs of running
that, it would spoil it all. If I just measure these things by dollars,
they make no sense at all.
The insurance premium was $200/yr liability only. It's just a 1981 Escort,
worth about $50 as a car, so no collision. Here in WA state, the
registration was the same as for a ICE. Too bad I can't get a tax credit,
or off-peak electricity.
----- Original Message -----
From: "russco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
Your miles/KWH is about right, but have you considered your cost of
batteries/mile?
One thousand $$$$$$$$$ for batteries that last 10,000 miles is ten cents
a mile, more than your electricity cost.
There goes your 40 MPG down to less than half that.
EV's are a hobby. That's fine. But don't expect an EV to cost less to
operate than the gasoline car you already have. The EV is extra
insurance, extra registration, and the cost/mile is greater than an
equivalent current gasoline car.
I'm sure many will disagree, but the figures speak for themselves.
After 3 EV's of my own, extremely aggressive driving in my area have
forced me to a safer conventional car that is fully depreciated and cost
perhaps $50 per year for maintenance. Plus 30 mpg for gas at about 6
cents/mile, that's my cost.
Dave Anderson wrote:
>
> I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the
batteries
> should be broken in. I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I
could
> keep tabs on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost
exactly
> 1/2 KWH/mi. At 8c/KWH (Puget Sound Energy) that is 4c/mi. Assuming a
> gallon of dead dinosaurs is $1.60 (about what it is here on the Seattle
> Eastside) that works out to an equivelant of 40mpg.
>
> Overall life is good with an EV!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the specs on the Battery Tender site - has some great diagrams.
www.batterytender.com
http://batterytender.com/battery_basics.php
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Max equalizing voltage for Sparrow charing ?
What should be the max voltage during equalizing for a flooded lead acid
battery (Optimas, Trojans, etc.) ?
A cousin of mine has a Sparrow with a 156 volt pack .
191.1 volts is gasing voltage at 2.45 volts per cell or 7.35 volts for a
six volter or 14.7 volts for a twelve volter.
215 volts is 8.27 volts per cell and is way too high unless the manual
says otherwise. I would not let my batteries go above 7.75 volts for
any reason and normally flooded lead acid batteries will not get much
above 7.5 volts after they have gone through 20 or 30 cycles, but that
has been my experience with Trojan lead acid deep cycle golf cart types (
J250's, T145's, & EV137's).
I thought equalizing charge was when batteries were brought just slightly
above the gasing voltage for an hour or two.
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
russco wrote:
> EV's are a hobby. That's fine. But don't expect an EV to
> cost less to operate than the gasoline car you already have.
> The EV is extra insurance, extra registration, and the
> cost/mile is greater than an equivalent current gasoline car.
As LeSled gets closer to being a car that I drive every day and less
"that #*&[EMAIL PROTECTED] thing that keeps you in the garage all the time", I'm
starting to consider the real-life aspects more. I'm going to try to
keep track of my costs from day one.
>From the start I've tried to make this a "no excuses" EV. No having to
be careful how far I drive, no worrying where my next charge will come
from, as few differences from driving an ICE as possible. In short, a
perfectly normal car that happens to be powered by electricity. OK, I
can hear the long-time EVers giggling already. What do I know, I'm
still very new at all this.
Then again, I'll have a significant advantage. If LeSled weighs in a
3000 lbs. as I've estimated, the 1400 lbs. of lead will give me a 47%
battery/vehicle weight ratio. 3000 lbs. seems like a lot (and it is,
for a Renault LeCar, so stiffer suspension will be added), but that's
about how much a new Golf or Jetta weighs.
My typical 40 mile daily round trip commute (with charging at work) will
result in a very easy life for this pack. I'm hoping the shallow
discharges, combined with a PFC-20 and Lee's Battery Balancer, will mean
a dramatically lower battery cost. (Yes, all 20 US145s actually fit in
the car, and I still have 4 seats. Surprisingly, there wasn't a creak,
groan, snap, crackle or pop as I loaded them in!)
I'm keeping track of my costs, and will try to keep track of my time
spent on maintenance. One figure I'll definitely need is charger
efficiency. Rich, do you have numbers for a buck enhanced PFC-20
charging a 120V pack from 120VAC and 240 VAC?
This car is a bit outside the normal conversion envelope. I'll be
interested to see if that changes the cost picture.
Chris
P.S. I'm also tempted to try a run to my employer's manufacturing
facility in this car. That's 90 miles!
--- End Message ---
