EV Digest 3275
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(Highlander Hybrid)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(GM plans hybrids of popular brands)
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Choices
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Choices
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) APEC Power Electronics Conference
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: electric bus on eBay Fun Camper?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) variac on e-bay
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Choices
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: variac on e-bay
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Trojan equalization current
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Prius EV Switch
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Pre-charge questions
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tire Dunlop LM 702 claims to have LLR
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: variac on e-bay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Pre-charge questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Choices
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Choices
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: e-meter interference?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Pre-charge questions
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Highlander Hybrid)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.autofan.com/newsdetail.asp?id=1032&mn=1&yr=2004
Toyota Unveils All-New Highlander Hybrid SUV and FTX Full-size
Pickup Concept (1/4/2004 6:44:52 PM) 01/04/2004
Detroit, MI - The all-new 2005 Toyota Highlander Hybrid
gas-electric mid-size sport utility vehicle (SUV) made its
world premiere at a press conference today at the 2004 North
American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in Detroit. The press
conference also featured the unveiling of the FTX full-size
pickup concept truck, offering a glimpse into Toyota's future
full-size truck strategy.
"The Highlander Hybrid is the world's first seven-passenger
hybrid SUV and marks the launch of a second all-new hybrid
vehicle from the Toyota Division," said Jim Press, executive vice
president and COO, Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc.
"The addition of a hybrid system in our best-selling SUV provides
further evidence that Toyota's commitment to hybrid technology
will continue to run deep and wide."
Like the popular four-cylinder Prius gas-electric hybrid, the
3.3-liter V6-equipped Highlander Hybrid will be powered by a new
version of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive powertrain. The system
was specifically developed to meet the load-carrying requirements
of a mid-size SUV.
The system features a larger-capacity battery that will deliver
nearly double the power of the battery in the Prius. An all-new
high-speed electric motor will operate at twice the speed and
deliver more than twice the power as the motor in the Prius. With
combined peak-system power projected at approximately 270
horsepower, the new system will improve upon the V6 Highlander's
already impressive less-than-eight-second zero-to-60
acceleration.
In addition to providing the fuel economy of a four-cylinder
compact sedan, the Highlander Hybrid will offer the versatility,
refinement, and comfort demanded in a mid-size SUV. Highlander
Hybrid will come standard-equipped with front-wheel-drive and
offer electric four-wheel-drive with intelligence (4WD-i). Models
with 4WD-i are equipped with front and rear electric motors that
will deliver balanced power to all four wheels, providing
instantaneous acceleration.
To enhance safety and all-weather capability, the Highlander
Hybrid will feature a Vehicle Dynamic Management (VDM) system.
Monitoring a variety of sensors, the system is capable of
anticipating pending vehicle stability problems and then
correcting the situation with a combination of braking and
throttle control. The new VDM system is less obtrusive than
conventional VSC but acts quicker and more effectively.
Additional safety features include a tire pressure warning
system, and optional front seat-mounted side airbags and front-
and second-row curtain side airbags.
The Highlander Hybrid will feature three rows of seats that will
include rear privacy glass, a rear heater system, and rear seat
cupholders. "Walk-in" steps and a second-row sliding seat make it
easy to enter and exit the third row. The third-row seat also
folds completely flat into the floor to create added cargo space.
The second-row 60/40 split-fold seat also reclines and folds
forward flat for added comfort and utility.
The exterior styling will be freshened with the addition of a new
front grille and bumper, and rear LED tail lamps. The Highlander
Hybrid will also ride on 17-inch alloy wheels.
The Highlander Hybrid will feature an array of amenities owners
have come to expect in their mid-size SUV, including standard air
conditioning, power windows, mirrors, and door locks, cruise
control, tilt steering wheel, and a deluxe 3-in-1 AM/FM/ETR
cassette/CD sound system with six speakers. A multi-function
display is conveniently located just beneath the speedometer that
calculates and displays various mechanical and performance
information including instant and average fuel economy, outside
temperature, low tire pressure, and a Hybrid Synergy Drive energy
monitor. A navigation system will be available on the Limited
grade. Like the Prius, it will also monitor the electric-gas
power distribution of the Hybrid Synergy Drive on a seven-inch
touch-panel display monitor. All options currently found in the
2004 Highlander will also be available in the 2005 Highlander
Hybrid.
"The Highlander Hybrid will join the Prius in early 2005, with
the Lexus RX hybrid arriving toward the end of this year," said
Press. "The trio will not only give consumers a broadband of
hybrid-powered choices, it will firmly establish this important
new technology in the hearts and minds of mainstream consumers."
[...]
AutoFan Magazine version 2.0 Copyright � 1998-2002 AutoFan.com
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 01:20:13AM -0800, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> EVLN(GM plans hybrids of popular brands)
> http://www.lsj.com/news/business/040110_cowger_1a-5a.html
> Published January 10, 2004
> Toyota also is rushing ahead with plans to sell a hybrid version
> of the Highlander SUV by 2005.
That's choice: "rushing ahead" --- this was supposed to be out
last year...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Saft NiCad are warrantied if you go thru the battery design effort
(imagine that!) And I am not sure, but some Gold Peak 30-100Ah EV
application NiMH may be warrantied.
Seth
On Jan 12, 2004, at 1:54 AM, Chuck Hursch wrote:
From what I've read on this list and my own personal experiences,
there are no batteries warranted for EV use, aside perhaps from
those Delphis and Panasonics that were found in the EV1 and RAV-4
(however, the warranty is probably voided if you don't use a
<snip again>
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok so we have:
Roderick W (Mr EV Parts)
Brian H (Mr Thunderstruck)
Rich the madman (Mr PFC)
Rich F (from Vegas?) (and other locals I presume?)
Keith R (of NDSU Sunsetters fame)
Otmar (Mr Zilla)
Bob R & family (of East coast EV and train fame)
Dodge Viper Club
DIscovery Channel?
and me, Seth A
Who else did I miss?
Is everyone staying by the strip or the dragstrip?
Should we start passing around a contact list off list for who is
staying where? Maybe trade cell phone numbers (offlist?) That way we
don't all rent a zillion rental cars at 30+% tax that we don't have to.
And maybe arrange a dinner someplace cool after the event? No one (of
note) is playing at the Hard Rock, but I hear there are things to do at
night in Vegas...
Thanks,
Seth A
P.S. is too obvious that I play project manager at work?
On Jan 11, 2004, at 8:31 PM, Brian D. Hall wrote:
Good to hear from you John, Hearing your Zombie posts sure makes me
want to
build something new.Do you remember riding my bike when I set the 96
volt
record?
Mainfuse
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
Hello to All,
"Brian D. Hall" wrote:
Only Two weeks left! time to start warming up those batteries. We
will
be at
NEDRA's season opener in Vegas with "revolt" drag bike , 192 volts ,
two
e-Teks, baby zilla with series / parallel switching. Hoping to get
break
into the high 12's and over 100 mph.
Brian D. Hall
Good luck with the bike and it's improvements, it sure sounds like the
right
combination....be safe and have fun!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> I still think that the right solution for this problems is for gas sations
> to have one 'Electric' pump - a charge controller capable of dumping
> 300-500A at traction voltages. Almost all batteries will accept rapid
> charging when they are 'dead empty' - and a 500A jolt for 5 minutes might
be
> just the thing to get you enough juice to cruise home on. They could
charge
> for the electric fill, just like they would for a gas one.
>
Funny but the only people who think this way are people that drive BEV's now
. I may talk to more people than most , I'm in the public's eye with EV
truck/ lawn trailer and it's plane to see its an EV , so I get to talk to
lost of people all the time. One of the reason's ( not the only) I put a
solar panel on it was all the people asking " why not put a solar panel
ayayaya" , now I just say "got it" . If they ask more I tell them how it
keeps the battery for the lights charged and helps balances my batteries.
>
> I doubt you could make a hydrogen fuel cell that put out enough power to
> justify the parasitic weight. Fuel cells just aren't that great, energy
> density wise, and they require a bunch of support stuff.
>
I believe that , its just the Fuel cell has already been so hyped people
will believe it will do anything , and I'm getting so tired of hearing NON
EV people tell me, I need one.
>
> Ultimately, I still think the right answer for this is traction power on
the
> interstates - or a autocar program that makes it easy to put your car on a
> transcontinental train when you're going long-haul. Maybe even a
> packet-switching train system with each car being self-routed? But, that's
> science fiction. ;-)
>
I dream these dreams to .
>
> I really like this ad idea. Maybe we could get some nonprofit to back it
up?
> I'm sure with the resources available to this list, we could prepare some
30
> second ads, then maybe a nonprofit could convince the TV stations to run
> them occasionally as a tax write-off. Boost public awareness for sure!
>
Talk about nonprofit , like saving the dinosaurs this is a little like
making the public aware of something that's gone , "where did that ev1 go ?
;-( "
> > I may shoot this one for EVTV ( thanks Bob for the ev footage , so far
> your
> > the only one to send anything) .
>
> Steve, if you seriously want EV footage, I have ten hours of unedited
video
> of us building QM. But it's unedited, and poorly shot using a hand video
> camera. I also have some Tango footage and some Woodburn 2002 footage
> including the infamous run down the racetrack.
>
That would be great, If you send me your address I'll send you my latest
EVTV cd which plays on windows media player, I think I can get another hour
on the cd , when its all done (with your stuff on it) I'll send you another
copy which you can copy and sell/hand out it .
awhile back there where a few people who offered to edit one , and it
sounded like they had the right equipment to do a good job maybe even turn
out a DVD . I had a friend of mine do the last two but I think they're
almost wore out . I could get them to edit you stuff and put it on but if
there's somebody else who wants to take this on let me know, I have video
of the 959 Porsche conversion and the Mazda 2 truck conversion being done ,
all raw footage on 8 mm unedited .
Steve Clunn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry ,
This is realy an up beat post for almost being killed by a probable
drunk,uninsured,maybe unlicenced driver who didn't even stop to see if you
were hurt. "Speeding fast and furious type," is realy too kind.
> Despite all this I was happy several ways, only a
> slight bump on the head from the rollbar was my only
> bodily injury and some sore mussles in my back and
> neck from the g forces and tensing.
> Another happy thing was my rear crash protection
> worked very well!
> . Beats paying
> autobody, boatyard repair bills and waiting for it to
> be done!!
It's realy hard sometimes when stuff like this happens to see the good in it
but you have a very positive attutide about it , I'm sure your e- woody will
be up and running in no time. I though it was a rear wheel drive , is all
that OK , ? As I remember it was a city car motor , 48 volt , ?
> Then it will be time to test my new generator and
> my new trailer for the woody so it will have unlimited
> range at 55mph and carry a small, 12' sailboat/
> camper/ hauling trailer.
> So apparently a wooden EV can take a licking and
> come out well! Who knew?
> jerry dycus
>
apparently your e-woody can take,,,,,,,, . Glad to hear your Ok, hope to
see you and E W at the Florida april EV rally .
Steve Clunn
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Pat
> I am planning on a total of 22 batteries for a 264 volt pack. I
originally
> cosidered Evercells but availability seems to be a problem.
> Lithium offerings still seem to have problems not the least of which is
price.
> The remaining choices are Optimas, Exide Orbitals, or other SLA battery.
> My daily commute is 35 miles one way mostly freeway with charging at
work. I
> would like the maximum range to be at least 75 miles in case of emergency.
>
There's a big difference between 55 65 and 75 mph in energy used, so a car
with a 35 mile range at 65 could go the 75 miles in a emergency ,just not do
it as fast . Yes you don't want to run the car dead empty on every trip but
overloading it with batteries for an emergency 75 mile run when a working
range of 45 miles for a car doing 35 per day would give a lighter car. I'd
go with the exide orbital and try for more that 22, . I have 18 orbital in
my 924 Porsche and have driven it 35 miles at around 40 mph
Steve Clunn
> What are your suggestions and why?
>
> Thanks
> Pat Sweeney
>
--- End Message ---
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I looked at the e-bay and called Paul the guy who makes the exsexotic kit
cars , http://paulsexotics.com/ I have him almost talked into doing one to
go in the Porsche GT1 body , If we could use the motor and controller from
this then it might happen,unless the e-bay price go to where it should be.
If not that then 2 8" motors and Zillia , . The buss is not that heavy 15000
lbs . so the motor might not be soooo big, . When I first got into EV's I
jumped right into something that I had no idea would work and had never
ridden in one, now years later I only do what others have done. It won't be
hard for me to put the bus motor out of my head and go with the same 2 motor
set up others are doing.
any thoughts
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: electric bus on eBay Fun Camper?
> Hi All;
>
> Gee! What a cute kittle bus! What a nice Motorhome it would make, wish
it
> was up in the fridgid Northwest. Would be a great Ampabout story to drive
it
> home to CT<g>! Anybody going for it?? Jerry, Steve, other guyz in FLA??
>
> When getting bussed is a pleasure!
>
> Bob
> > Hi All,
> > There is one of these here in Tampa listed for
> > $2,000. Probably get it for less. You better have a
> > big forklift for the batt packs as they look very
> > heavy. About a 4' cube of lead batts. 2 packs.
> > jerry dycus
> > --- BORTEL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Now here's one that nobody should be without.
> > >
> >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452154897&cat
> egory=6728
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This small variac (55lbs) is listed as 8.4 kva.
Is this possible? I'd think that you'd be looking at about
100-150 lbs of iron to do 8.4kva at 60Hz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586586486
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
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My roughly 4.8 kVA variac (240V, 20A) weighs around 70 lb., so your math
sounds right, but his unit doesn't include about 10-15 lb. of case, knob,
shaft, etc. Also, mine is a dual 120V version, and this one is one single
humungous 240V unit. Also he is stretching the rating a bit by using the
max. output voltage. I'd say it is similar to mine, at about 4.8 kVA. If
it can truly handle 30A, that goes up to 7.2 kVA (240V * 30A). That still
might be stretching it, but you could find out by asking for a close-up
picture of the wiring board. That should have the information written on
it. Either way it's a steal at $33.00 IF it works like he says it does.
The usual disclaimer - I have no knowledge of, nor relationship with the
seller, etc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Birenboim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: variac on e-bay
This small variac (55lbs) is listed as 8.4 kva.
Is this possible? I'd think that you'd be looking at about
100-150 lbs of iron to do 8.4kva at 60Hz.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586586486
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just had my Zivan NG3 reprogrammed for Trojan 24TM.
(Group 24 sized, 12v modules, flooded, C/20=85ah)
The equalization current seems to be around 2-2.5a
I don't have a real good way to measure it.
(I estimate from the kill-a-watt, taking into account
efficiencies and power factor...)
I think its equalizaing, its when the light goes solid yellow.
Is this high for 24TM? I thought people with the bug 6v
modules equalize around 2A. The voltage sits around 187
for a nominal 144v system (15.6 v/module...2.6 v/cell)
I should be out there watching the charger now.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I don't think he is charging externally, but if he were at 14.5v
the PB-A pack would be 0.4vpc above the Ni-MH pack nominal level.
Is this safe for Ni-MH cells? It looks pretty good to me.>>
I can see where this would allow longer "stealth" running, but without external
charging, what's the benefit? You're still relying on the ICE to replenish the
pack, it just has to do more of it.
Wouldn't it be nice to try this with grid charging, plus maybe a button on the
dash for manual control of a contactor allowing the auxillary pack to be
disconnected when desired? The next Thunder-Sky pack test...?
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Hello Danny,
Thank you for this tire info.
This will be my next tire change which will be several years from now.
The existing tire on my EV is a DUNLAP - LT234/7515 with 8 inch thread width
and 30 inch in diameter.
When I first bought these tires in 1985!!! it also had a new chemical in
tire rubber and have good performance for low resistance and wet grip
performance.
The tire has a very aggressive thread pattern, is 8 ply rated. The thread
depth today is at .25 inch depth!!! Still good for driving on snow, ice,
and wet surfaces.
When I bought a new car that had factory install tires, took it home, and
found I could not get out of my driveway with is 200 feet long up grade
which was snow and ice cover. Then there is 1 mile long up grade from my
driveway.
I had to go back to the dealer to get my old Dunlap tires off my trade in.
Now I can walk right up these ice cover hills with them.
These tires are high pressure type, with a load rating at 2500 lbs at 65 psi
air pressure. This is where I set the rear tires at where as the deflection
rate is at 5 percent difference between unload and loaded weight.
The ride is very soft and smooth. As for high speed performance of which is
not done on my EV, I also replace the factory install tires on my sports car
that only lasted 200 miles at a speed of 100 mph in a temperature of 100
degrees. The tire had too much deflection rate for the recommended air
pressure, which cause them to heat up and become melted.
Therefore I have always used DUNLAP's.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV SEND MSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: Tire Dunlop LM 702 claims to have LLR
> Anybody know about this tire ?
>
> Danny..
>
> http://www.dunloptyres.com.hk/e/tyres-pas-lm702.html
>
>
> New chemical (BCF) is used in tread rubber.
> It enables us to develop a good performance
> tyre both in low rolling resistance and in
> wet grip performance.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
>
> This small variac (55lbs) is listed as 8.4 kva.
> Is this possible? I'd think that you'd be looking at about
> 100-150 lbs of iron to do 8.4kva at 60Hz.
Yes, it can't be 55 lbs and 8.4kva at 60 Hz. At least one of those three
numbers is wrong. There are 400 Hz variacs; maybe he got the weight and
kva right, but doesn't know it's for 400 Hz.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
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Hello Fred,
My controller does not used a pre-charger, It is a antique 1975 CableForm
controller that still have the original contact pads!!! There is a
supressor modul that is design for the contactor by the manufacturer that
bolts onto the contactor.
In industrial contactors, these always have been availabled, by GE,
Westinghouse, Square D and ETC.
Also my contactors always make and brake without no load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:57 AM
Subject: Pre-charge questions
> Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
>
> Greetings from ice station zebra here in Connecticut, where we have been
> having sub freezing temps. i went out to the garage this weekend,
> intending to take my Cabrio out for a ride in the cold to see how the
> NiZn performs. Clunk went the contactor, silent went the motor....
>
> i've deduced that the controller (Curtis 1231) is fine by "hot-wiring"
> pack positive to the top most fast-on, and working the pot box by hand.
> Thus something is busted in the key switch circuit. Noticing the nasty
> snap as the controller caps charged up, I've decided to add a pre-charge
> circuit rather than just fix the original Mike Brown Volts Rabbit
> wiring. Prowling the archives there seem to be two different schools of
> thought. Otmar seems to just leave a 400 ohm 20w resistor accross the
> main contactor lugs (all the time, I guess switched on by a 12v relay
> activated by the key switch?), and Lee Hart uses the circuit below which
> activates the pre-charge circuit when the key switch is held to start
> (Hopefully I've faithfully padded Lee's magnificent ASCII art back to
> the original fixed font...)
>
> So my questions:
> 1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the main
> contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
> 2) With Lee's circuit, couldn't the "run" circuit drop out at a
> (exceptionally) long stop light?
> 3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
> 4) Are there other pre-charge schemes to what i've found and described
> here?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Fred Whitridge
>
> <from an old EV List post>-----
> In a message dated 10/22/2003 2:48:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/post?postID=DHgEUNqTa69Um10ejVRJVyf5drB8BmLx49XHdHRNMOZXExQy5YEG5eZz5r2mUCcW8jTjqs1QZUmgBbjg>
> writes:
> Dave Anderson wrote:
> > Light bulb sounds good, cheap too. What should I use? A 100 watt bulb?
>
> I use a 130v 75 watt "black light" bulb. Black so it doesn't flash when
> it precharges the controller. People were a bit disturbed by the flash
> of light from under the hood when I turned on the car :-)
>
> One of the 'ruggedized' lamps intended for rough duty applications would
> be a good idea, too, so the filament is less likely to break from being
> bounced around in a car.
>
> > I like the ignition switch "start" position idea. What the heck,
> > it's already there, and the sequencing is built-in as the 'ol MarkIV
> > human is already programmed for this. Will headscratch this a bit,
> > as I'm not sure how to latch out the "run" position when initially
> > rotating the key.
>
> Use a couple relays. Something like this (view with fixed width font):
>
> main contactor
> +HV_________________/_______________________controller B+
> | | | |
> | K1 | | < potentiometer
> |____/_____/\/\____| -->< adjust so K2 pulls in
> 75w lamp < at about 90% of pack
> | voltage
> +12v__________________/______/___ |
> |___/_____ key K2 | |
> key | run | |
> start |_ |_ |_
> _| main _| _| K2
> K1 _| contactor _| _| coil rated for pack
> 12v _| 12v _| _| voltage or less
> | | | (can be AC or DC)
> gnd gnd |
> -HV__________________________________________|
>
> When you turn the key to 'run', the main contactor does not pull in
> because K2 is not on (no voltage at the controller input). When you turn
> the key further to 'start', K1 pulls in. Its contact connects the HV
> pack to the controller thru the 75 watt lamp as a precharge resistor,
> and the controller precharges.
>
> When the controller reaches about 90% of full voltage, K2 pulls in.
> Adjust the potentiometer to set the exact voltage where this occurs.
> Most relays pull in at about 60-80% of their rated voltage, so a 110vdc
> coil is about right for a 72v pack. You will have trouble finding coils
> for higher DC voltages, but you can also use a relay with a 120vac or
> 240vac coil (AC relays pull in at 40-60% of their rated voltage on DC).
>
> When K2 pulls in, the controller is precharged. Now the main contactor
> can pull in thru the key 'run' switch and K2's contact.
>
> So, you turn the key; the 75w lamp blinks, and a second later you hear a
> 'clunk' as the main contactor pulls in. Let go of the key and it remains
> in the 'run' position. K1 and the precharge resistor turn of, but they
> aren't needed anymore anyway. Just drive.
>
> When you turn the key off, the main contactor drops and K1 is already
> off. The controller will gradually discharge, so after a while K2 drops
> off, too. So there are zero parasitic load currents.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiosity, what type of quantity of NiMH batteries had GM
planned to buy? As in what how big a run would be needed to get to
"about the same as PbA per watt-hour" prices?
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
NiMH batteries would be great, but it's difficult to find large-scale ones.
Oh, if only GM hadn't shafted SAFT over the EV1 battery packs, we'd have
full-size NiMH batteries for about the same as PbA per watt-hour. But,
unfortunately, they did, and we don't.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Except... the original poster has a Zilla and Netgain motor combo so I
would assume wants better than tepid Curtis type performance.
Wasn't the consensus that the SAFT NiCad EV modules (100's & 140's)
don't tolerate high currents? As in the 500 amps for 10 seconds listed
in the documentation is more like 250 amps peak to avoid early death?
This power level worked for the Solectria's but from most accounts with
modest at best acceleration. So to get "regular" or better performance,
then are we back at a hybrid pack?
Also when looking at the water cooled version for my truck, I couldn't
get any numbers from them as to how much heat would be generated to know
how to size a radiator, flow rate, etc. Leaving my back with lead as the
default.
Seth Allen wrote:
I have been saying that they are the only viable chemistry for a while.
Nothing else is as rugged and has decent (if not great) enegry density.
On Jan 10, 2004, at 7:38 PM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
If you want a single (not hybrid) battery pack, I have to say SAFT Nicad
[...]
So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that
you can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be
supported are the SAFT NiCads.
--- original post ---
>>> Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice
>>> and I would like the lists input. Many of you have real world
>>> experience with the various batteries available and I would like
>>> your opinnion. I have designed a BMS that can be reprogramed for
>>> any technology.
>>>
>>> My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I
>>> will be using a Zilla 1 K controler <snip>
>>> What are your suggestions and why?
>>>
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got several helpful comments... to answer a few questions:
- The e-meter is fairly new (actually a Link-10) so I assume it has the
"EV filter" circuit included (filter cap on the power input as I recall?)
- The cable I used is somewhat twisted, like a twist or two per inch. I
have seen much tighter twists in other cables (but not cable with needed
voltage ratings, shielding, etc.)
- I grounded all the shields to the chassis at the dashboard end.
Perhaps since all the signals involved are relative to pack negative, I
should hook the shield to that?
- The meter cabling is physically far away from high power cables...
except the pre-scaler (official Cruising Equipment model) is right under
the main fuse for the high power line to the controller. Oops. Maybe I
should move that.
More things to try...
And for the record I like getting EVDL messages as plain text e-mails.
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
> Things to check are:
>
> - For a shielded cable to work properly you must ground the shield(s)
> at one end only and that should be a point common to the signal
> grounds. Some systems run a separate heavy ground strap from each
> device to a common point if necessary, don't rely on the car body for
> electronic devices grounds.
> - A small (pf) size capacitor across the signal lines where they enter
> the emeter will also help shut any noise to ground. I don't know if
> the emeter manual says anything about this. I seem to remember a
> couple of years back there was an external R/C circuit suggested to
> help keep noise out of the meter. Newer meters I think are supposed
> to have this built in.
> - Finally keep the signal lines away from the high current lines, try
> to cross over any such cables at right angles to avoid inductive
> coupling of noise.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred,
Use a NTC device to charge the caps, like
http://www.ametherm.com/Inrush_Current/welcome.html
Use a comparator circuit (LM393) with a desired
reference voltage at which you would like to
close the line contactor. The other comparator
input measures capacitor voltage.
Once the caps reach 80% charge, the comparator
swithes state and turns on a transistor
that drives the line contactor coil.
Rod
--- fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge
> experts):
>
> Greetings from ice station zebra here in
> Connecticut, where we have been
> having sub freezing temps. i went out to the garage
> this weekend,
> intending to take my Cabrio out for a ride in the
> cold to see how the
> NiZn performs. Clunk went the contactor, silent
> went the motor....
>
> i've deduced that the controller (Curtis 1231) is
> fine by "hot-wiring"
> pack positive to the top most fast-on, and working
> the pot box by hand.
> Thus something is busted in the key switch circuit.
> Noticing the nasty
> snap as the controller caps charged up, I've decided
> to add a pre-charge
> circuit rather than just fix the original Mike Brown
> Volts Rabbit
> wiring. Prowling the archives there seem to be two
> different schools of
> thought. Otmar seems to just leave a 400 ohm 20w
> resistor accross the
> main contactor lugs (all the time, I guess switched
> on by a 12v relay
> activated by the key switch?), and Lee Hart uses the
> circuit below which
> activates the pre-charge circuit when the key switch
> is held to start
> (Hopefully I've faithfully padded Lee's magnificent
> ASCII art back to
> the original fixed font...)
>
> So my questions:
> 1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the
> pitting of the main
> contactor contacts but what is it doing to the
> controller?
> 2) With Lee's circuit, couldn't the "run" circuit
> drop out at a
> (exceptionally) long stop light?
> 3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
> 4) Are there other pre-charge schemes to what i've
> found and described
> here?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Fred Whitridge
>
> <from an old EV List post>-----
> In a message dated 10/22/2003 2:48:24 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/post?postID=DHgEUNqTa69Um10ejVRJVyf5drB8BmLx49XHdHRNMOZXExQy5YEG5eZz5r2mUCcW8jTjqs1QZUmgBbjg>
>
> writes:
> Dave Anderson wrote:
> > Light bulb sounds good, cheap too. What should I
> use? A 100 watt bulb?
>
> I use a 130v 75 watt "black light" bulb. Black so it
> doesn't flash when
> it precharges the controller. People were a bit
> disturbed by the flash
> of light from under the hood when I turned on the
> car :-)
>
> One of the 'ruggedized' lamps intended for rough
> duty applications would
> be a good idea, too, so the filament is less likely
> to break from being
> bounced around in a car.
>
> > I like the ignition switch "start" position idea.
> What the heck,
> > it's already there, and the sequencing is
> built-in as the 'ol MarkIV
> > human is already programmed for this. Will
> headscratch this a bit,
> > as I'm not sure how to latch out the "run"
> position when initially
> > rotating the key.
>
> Use a couple relays. Something like this (view with
> fixed width font):
>
> main contactor
>
+HV_________________/_______________________controller
> B+
> | | | |
> | K1 | | <
> potentiometer
> |____/_____/\/\____| -->< adjust
> so K2 pulls in
> 75w lamp < at
> about 90% of pack
> |
> voltage
> +12v__________________/______/___ |
> |___/_____ key K2 | |
> key | run | |
> start |_ |_ |_
> _| main _| _| K2
> K1 _| contactor _| _| coil
> rated for pack
> 12v _| 12v _| _|
> voltage or less
> | | | (can
> be AC or DC)
> gnd gnd |
> -HV__________________________________________|
>
> When you turn the key to 'run', the main contactor
> does not pull in
> because K2 is not on (no voltage at the controller
> input). When you turn
> the key further to 'start', K1 pulls in. Its contact
> connects the HV
> pack to the controller thru the 75 watt lamp as a
> precharge resistor,
> and the controller precharges.
>
> When the controller reaches about 90% of full
> voltage, K2 pulls in.
> Adjust the potentiometer to set the exact voltage
> where this occurs.
> Most relays pull in at about 60-80% of their rated
> voltage, so a 110vdc
> coil is about right for a 72v pack. You will have
> trouble finding coils
> for higher DC voltages, but you can also use a relay
> with a 120vac or
> 240vac coil (AC relays pull in at 40-60% of their
> rated voltage on DC).
>
> When K2 pulls in, the controller is precharged. Now
> the main contactor
> can pull in thru the key 'run' switch and K2's
> contact.
>
> So, you turn the key; the 75w lamp blinks, and a
> second later you hear a
> 'clunk' as the main contactor pulls in. Let go of
> the key and it remains
> in the 'run' position. K1 and the precharge resistor
> turn of, but they
> aren't needed anymore anyway. Just drive.
>
> When you turn the key off, the main contactor drops
> and K1 is already
> off. The controller will gradually discharge, so
> after a while K2 drops
> off, too. So there are zero parasitic load currents.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets
> in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
