EV Digest 3371
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: shunt alternatives
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NiMH charge monitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Anyone got four Mark 1 Rudman Regs to sell?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: shunt alternatives
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: shunt alternatives
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiMH charge monitor
by Dermot Dobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: shunt alternatives
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Anyone got four Mark 1 Rudman Regs to sell?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: NiMH charge monitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: shunt alternatives
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Megger on E-bay
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AC/DC hybrid Motor
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Zilla hairball Q's
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Evercel is no more!
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC/DC hybrid Motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EVLN(EDTA EV/hybrid/fcv Conf&Expo 9/21-23/04 Orlando, FL $$$)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
> LEMs are rated by nominal current. So the 1000A sensor above can read
> +/- 1500A. They have larger units too. I ampretty sure it is more than
> $5, probably more than $50.
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>> I see that the max. value that these specify can be read is 100 amps.
>> Could they be placed futher from the current supply to read higher
>> currents? That would be a cool alternative to a regular hall sensor
>> placed in a slotted ferrite core (which is my other choice for reading
>> up to 1000 amps).
Are you guys trying to measure AC or DC currents? AC is a lot easier, as
transformer-based couplers work.
Are you trying to measure amphours by accumulating the amps? The LEM and
many other Hall-based sensors have a problem with zero offset. A
1000-amp sensor might have its zero-current point off by 1 amp. That's
only a 0.1% error on current measurement, but if you accumulate it to
form amphours, it's a 24 amphour error per day! Much too large to be
useful.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all those who posted
( on & off List ) about Linux
serial programs. I tried Minicom,
but being a hopeless Linux newbie,
couldn't get on with it.
Then I ran across a thing called
"Seyon" , which is X based, and
seems to work fine.
Hurray! I don't have to reboot into
Windows to program my nice little
Microrobotics board.
Cool.
Thanks,
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
P.S. Yes Paul, I agree 100% that
Hyperterminal is a piece of s**t,
it was just a useful example of the
sort of graphical based serial comms
package I was after. Teraterm is much
better, if you want a Win32 comms prog.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:55 -0800
Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> Hello Rich,
>
> There is a engineering calculation as:
>
> 1 ftlb per sec = 1.356 watts
> (meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)
Shame on you to call it Engineering calculation :-)
The "1.356 watts of energy" statement makes no sense.
If you mean power, say it, else you may confuse newbies.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Actually, 1 ftlb at 60 RPM does not equal 1.365 watts ( if RPM means
revolutions per minute)
1 ftlb at 60 Radians per minute equals 1.365 watts, and 1 ftlb at 60 RPM is
actually 8.57 watts.
Think of it this way : If you are turning a shaft with a 1 lb force at the
end of a 1 ft long wrench ( 1 ftlb of torque) , and you turn the shaft 1
revolution, you are actually pushing the end of the wrench through a
distance of 6.28 feet (2pi times the radius of the wrench) with a force of 1
lb. So, you've put in 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
So, 1 ftlb x 1 revolution = 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
Or, 1 ftlb at 1 RPS = 6.28 ftlbs/sec
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage.
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dermot Dobson wrote:
> I'd like to fit a handlebar mounted charge/discharge monitor to
> provide a reasonably accurate display of actual charge remaining.
> (obviously, I'd just fit the display on the handlebars, placing
> the sensor in the main current path).
>
> A total of 10 LEDS would be fine, accounting for the 1.4:1
> charge:discharge difference. Anyone have pointers to a circuit
> for such a beast?
You can't sense state of charge of an Nimh battery solely by voltage.
Since you're talking about a sensor in the current path, you already
know that.
For a commercial product, I use the Heart Interface "Link 10", also sold
by Mastervolt in Europe. It costs about $200 US, and is pretty elaborate
-- keeps track of amps, volts, amphours, kilowatthours, temperature,
number of cycles, state of charge (once you tell it your battery's
amphour capacity), and too many other things to list here.
If you want to build an el-cheapo do-it-yourself project, I think I
would start with a voltage-to-frequency converter chip. There are some
old parts like the Analog Devices AD537 and LM331 that I have used, or
newer parts like the Analog Devices AD7710 (I hope I'm remembering the
numbers right).
Use a shunt, or maybe just tap at two points along an existing wire in
the wiring harness between motor and battery. This will give you
something like 0-100 mv for a 0-20amp current. Use the V/F chip to
convert this to frequency. Count the pulses from this with a CMOS
counter chip (4040 etc.) followed by a 4017 decade counter. Your "State
of Charge" LEDs are the 10 outputs of this 4017.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Actually, 1 ftlb at 60 RPM does not equal 1.365 watts ( if RPM means
> revolutions per minute)
> 1 ftlb at 60 Radians per minute equals 1.365 watts, and 1 ftlb at 60 RPM is
> actually 8.57 watts.
-snip-
> So, 1 ftlb x 1 revolution = 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
> Or, 1 ftlb at 1 RPS = 6.28 ftlbs/sec
well just to correct your correction ;)
Shouldn't that first statement read = 6.28 ftlbs of force (not sure that ftlbs is the
correct unit) ?
The second statement would ftlbs/sec of power, I think.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I am putting together bits for a rebuild of my Civic EV as a plug-in
> hybrid, and after disappointing results with the PowerCheq units I am
> planning on going back to the more reliable Ruman Regs. Unfortunately of
> my original 13, I used one for a battery tester project, killed one, and
> sold two, so I need four to get it going again. For consistency I would
> rather stick with an all Mark 1 setup, but I may not have any choice but
> upgrade to the new versions. All but one of mine are the external load
> variety.
>
> So, anyone got four of the old flavor about they would be willing to
> sell? Or should I seriously consider moving up to the new versions? Since
> I am using a Zivan NG5 charger I really can't take advantage of the RegBus
> system, (or has someone come up with a Zivan hack?)
>
> BTW, did anyone ever find a good solution for enclosing the Regs? Last
> time I had them all clustered together with long leads to each
> battery. This time I was thinking perhaps of making individual units of
> them, each in its own enclosed box with the load mounted on the outside,
> then mount the box directly on the battery they serve. Any recommendations
> on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Mike I can "FIND" you 4 Mk1s or even that many Retreds, in the Smoked
box/JOE fix box.
Cleaning them in hot soapy water, then compressed air dry, them
sparying a coat of Conformal coating...
TechSpray Fine-l-kote from Mouser, works for me.
DO not coat the load banks. Keep the leads short and close to the Regs,
Use twin leads ONLY... no bussing, and keep the loads close, less than 2
feet from the regs, and make them pull 5 amps or less. NO 15 amp 1 ohm
loads!!! And Mk1 loadless Regs will be just fine.
I took some ugly but still operational Mk1 off of Goldie last August
before Woodburn.
$15 each and they are yours. I will test and tune them up for 14.8
volts. Goldie of course has a full reg buss Mk2 setup right now, with
active Lowbatt installed.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> I see that the max. value that these specify can be read is 100 amps.
> Could they be placed futher from the current supply to read higher
> currents? That would be a cool alternative to a regular hall sensor
> placed in a slotted ferrite core (which is my other choice for reading
> up to 1000 amps).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
>
> >Rich,
> Ever thought of driving an Electric Car? Visit http://www.evsource.com
> <http://www.interwebber.com/redirects/evsource/index.html?id=4487643>
Read the specs closer they can read out to 10x, but they go non linear
out there.
Farther from from the current supply???? What??? No the current must
pass through the hole in the center of the sensor.
They make Hal, and Has verions that go to 2500 amps, time 3 to 10,
that's as far as you need to go!!!!
Slotted core??? these are stand alone senors. No slotted core work to do
it's done for you.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here what's is stated in the Units and Conversion Factors in the Standard
Handbook For Electrical Engineers. Is listed under the table of POWERS.
1 foot-pound per sec. against standard g. = 1.356 watts.
The standard gravitational force conventional for latitude 45 degrees
(g=980.621)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
> > Actually, 1 ftlb at 60 RPM does not equal 1.365 watts ( if RPM means
> > revolutions per minute)
> > 1 ftlb at 60 Radians per minute equals 1.365 watts, and 1 ftlb at 60 RPM
> > is
> > actually 8.57 watts.
> -snip-
> > So, 1 ftlb x 1 revolution = 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
> > Or, 1 ftlb at 1 RPS = 6.28 ftlbs/sec
>
> well just to correct your correction ;)
>
> Shouldn't that first statement read = 6.28 ftlbs of force (not sure that
> ftlbs is the correct unit) ?
> The second statement would ftlbs/sec of power, I think.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> Rod, I noted a frequency bandwidth of 13kHz at -3dB.
>
> In your opinion is that important if one is switching at say 25kHz? My
> boat motor controller is a 22kHz which I can just hear. And if I were
> to play with a high fundamental frequency motor, like 800+Hz, I might
> want 20kHz or more. Maybe this propagation delay/response time/ rise
> time can be at least partly compensated for in software?
>
> Should this thread go to evtech?
>
> Seth
>
It could
The 20Khz limit is what has stopped Joe and I from running the
PFC20/30s at 80 Khz, We are loosing signal in the trash that the sensor
makes at switch time. There is a one hell of a current spike, and the
sensor saturates, so the spike looks way too long, and the control loop
fails to properly ignore the bogus spike. It's one of the hairiest
messiest scope shots that only Joe really understands, and it takes a
digital scope, and filtering to see. So.... We run the chargers at
50Khz, and no faster, until we find a higher freq rated sensor.
So far we are happy, but not completely with the LEM LA-100p .
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The actual statement is from the UNITS AND CONVERSIONS FACTORS in my
Standard Handbook of Engineering Calculations under the table of POWERS.
It list:
1 foot-pound per sec. against standard g. = 1.356 watts.
The standard gravitational force conventional for latitude 45 degrees is
(g=980.621)
If a rotating machine apply 1 foot-pound per second and makes one rotation
per second, than there are 60 rotations per minute.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
>
>
> >From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
> >Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:55 -0800
> >
> >Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Rich,
> > >
> > > There is a engineering calculation as:
> > >
> > > 1 ftlb per sec = 1.356 watts
> > > (meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)
> >
> >Shame on you to call it Engineering calculation :-)
> >
> >The "1.356 watts of energy" statement makes no sense.
> >If you mean power, say it, else you may confuse newbies.
> >
> >--
> >Victor
> >'91 ACRX - something different
> >
>
> Actually, 1 ftlb at 60 RPM does not equal 1.365 watts ( if RPM means
> revolutions per minute)
> 1 ftlb at 60 Radians per minute equals 1.365 watts, and 1 ftlb at 60 RPM
> is
> actually 8.57 watts.
>
> Think of it this way : If you are turning a shaft with a 1 lb force at the
> end of a 1 ft long wrench ( 1 ftlb of torque) , and you turn the shaft 1
> revolution, you are actually pushing the end of the wrench through a
> distance of 6.28 feet (2pi times the radius of the wrench) with a force of
> 1
> lb. So, you've put in 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
>
> So, 1 ftlb x 1 revolution = 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
> Or, 1 ftlb at 1 RPS = 6.28 ftlbs/sec
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage.
> http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use a shunt, or maybe just tap at two points along an existing wire in
the wiring harness between motor and battery. This will give you
something like 0-100 mv for a 0-20amp current. Use the V/F chip to
convert this to frequency. Count the pulses from this with a CMOS
counter chip (4040 etc.) followed by a 4017 decade counter. Your "State
of Charge" LEDs are the 10 outputs of this 4017.
That's the sort of idea I had in mind, but the 4017 is only an upcounter
and I really need it to count up and down at charge and discharge.
I will also need to ensure that I somehow scale the charge and discharge
since I need to charge for 14 hours at the C10 rate in order to be able to
discharge for only 10 hours at the C10 rate. I guess that I could take taps
at different locations for monitoring the two states, but that isn't very
elegant!
I was rather hoping that there was a single chip system, or at least
something reasonably integrated so as to make it small enough.
Seems an ideal application for one of the single-chip micros with a bit of
NVRAM onboard.
Your point about using an existing part of the wiring harness for the
sensor rather than inserting a low value resistor is well-taken, however.
I'm assuming that I'll need a dc-dc isolated converter to power it from the
main 36V stack to avoid spikes, circulating earth currents &c. causing trouble.
The motor is driven from a pulse-width controller, if I use a V/F I can
presumably filter the DC component to avoid any funnies. How about Hall
effect sensors - are they confused by a pulse train rather than straight DC?
dermot
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could only hope that 1000A is not his charge current...
Seth
On Feb 22, 2004, at 2:59 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Seth wrote:
LEMs are rated by nominal current. So the 1000A sensor above can read
+/- 1500A. They have larger units too. I ampretty sure it is more than
$5, probably more than $50.
Ryan Bohm wrote:
I see that the max. value that these specify can be read is 100 amps.
Could they be placed futher from the current supply to read higher
currents? That would be a cool alternative to a regular hall sensor
placed in a slotted ferrite core (which is my other choice for
reading
up to 1000 amps).
Are you guys trying to measure AC or DC currents? AC is a lot easier,
as
transformer-based couplers work.
Are you trying to measure amphours by accumulating the amps? The LEM
and
many other Hall-based sensors have a problem with zero offset. A
1000-amp sensor might have its zero-current point off by 1 amp. That's
only a 0.1% error on current measurement, but if you accumulate it to
form amphours, it's a 24 amphour error per day! Much too large to be
useful.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might try Rudman. He will at least fix them for a nominal fee. I might
have some that can be salvaged. I have however been mixing them and seem to
have good results doing that. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 7:29 PM
Subject: Anyone got four Mark 1 Rudman Regs to sell?
> Hi folks,
>
> I am putting together bits for a rebuild of my Civic EV as a plug-in
> hybrid, and after disappointing results with the PowerCheq units I am
> planning on going back to the more reliable Ruman Regs. Unfortunately of
> my original 13, I used one for a battery tester project, killed one, and
> sold two, so I need four to get it going again. For consistency I would
> rather stick with an all Mark 1 setup, but I may not have any choice but
> upgrade to the new versions. All but one of mine are the external load
> variety.
>
> So, anyone got four of the old flavor about they would be willing to
> sell? Or should I seriously consider moving up to the new versions?
Since
> I am using a Zivan NG5 charger I really can't take advantage of the RegBus
> system, (or has someone come up with a Zivan hack?)
>
> BTW, did anyone ever find a good solution for enclosing the Regs? Last
> time I had them all clustered together with long leads to each
> battery. This time I was thinking perhaps of making individual units of
> them, each in its own enclosed box with the load mounted on the outside,
> then mount the box directly on the battery they serve. Any
recommendations
> on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dermot Dobson wrote:
> That's the sort of idea I had in mind, but the 4017 is only an
> upcounter and I really need it to count up and down at charge and
> discharge.
Ok; I was assuming that you only wanted to track discharge current, and
that the bike never does regen (charges the battery while you are riding
it, when the brakes are used). If this were the case, you could just let
the counter count up the amphours on discharge, and reset it at the end
of charging (when battery voltage reaches about 1.52v/cell, for
example).
> I was rather hoping that there was a single chip system, or at least
> something reasonably integrated so as to make it small enough.
> Seems an ideal application for one of the single-chip micros with
> a bit of NVRAM onboard.
Well, I suppose there isn't any problem that can't become complicated by
adding a micro :-)
The A/D converters in the single-chip micros aren't any good for small
voltages, like what you'd get from a shunt. You'd have to add a
precision opamp to boost the shunt voltage -- like +/-50mv to 0-5 volts
at the micro. Since it has to have a very low input offset voltage, the
opamp will cost more than the micro! :-)
An aside; the part you really want is a thermometer-like device called
an "Indachron Coulometer". This is a glass tube with a wire coming out
at each end. The tube is 90% filled with mercury, some at each end. The
space between the mercury is filled with a drop of nitric acid.
It works like a tiny battery with both plates made of the same material
(mercury), so there is nominally zero volts across it. You wire it
across a shunt resistor. Positive current plates mercury off one end and
onto the other, so the open space between them moves to one end.
Likewise, negative current plates mercury off the other end and back to
the first. You position it with a white or reflective background behind
it, and read it by the position of the clear space.
Due to the physics of the device, they are quite accurate. Also, not
made any more (mercury and nitric acid? Horrors! :-)
> I'm assuming that I'll need a dc-dc isolated converter to power it
> from the main 36V stack to avoid spikes, circulating earth currents
> &c. causing trouble.
Yes, likely. More complexity and expense :-)
> The motor is driven from a pulse-width controller, if I use a V/F
> I can presumably filter the DC component to avoid any funnies.
A PWM controller is supposed to have an inductor (or enough motor
inductance) to act as a 'flywheel' and smooth out the current
pulsations. If you don't, the motor will operate at lower efficiency.
> How about Hall effect sensors - are they confused by a pulse train
> rather than straight DC?
Hall-effect sensors have frequency response limitations. You'll have to
look at the specific device to see if this will be a problem.
Hall-effect sensors have another problem, however, that makes them
rather useless for coulometric (amphour) measurements. They usually have
significant zero-current offset errors. A sensor that is good for (say)
20 amps full-scale might have a 0.1ma error at 0 current. 0.1ma for 24
hours is a 2.4 amphour per day error.
Thus, coulometric sensors almost always use a resistive shunt
(guaranteed 0 volts at 0 amps) with an opamp also guaranteed to have (or
adjusted to have) 0 offset. The chopper-stabilized opamps now available
have guaranteed offsets way down in the microvolts.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Roland
Sorry - I misinterpreted your statement. 1 ft-lb/sec is, indeed 1.356 watts
( at 60 RPM, or 600, or 6000 RPM. or at any other shaft speed)
But, when you said "(meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)"
I thought you meant that a torque of 1 ft-lb applied at a speed of 60 RPM
was 1.356 watts. That is where you have to use radians instead of
revolutions to get the right value.
I think the problem comes from the confusion between ft-lb as a unit of
either energy ( as in "550 ft-lb/sec = 1 HP"), or torque. I though you
meant it as torque, since you said " ft-lb at RPM", and not "ft-lb/sec"
Phil
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:38:08 -0700
The actual statement is from the UNITS AND CONVERSIONS FACTORS in my
Standard Handbook of Engineering Calculations under the table of POWERS.
It list:
1 foot-pound per sec. against standard g. = 1.356 watts.
The standard gravitational force conventional for latitude 45 degrees is
(g=980.621)
If a rotating machine apply 1 foot-pound per second and makes one rotation
per second, than there are 60 rotations per minute.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
>
>
> >From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
> >Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:55 -0800
> >
> >Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Rich,
> > >
> > > There is a engineering calculation as:
> > >
> > > 1 ftlb per sec = 1.356 watts
> > > (meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)
> >
> >Shame on you to call it Engineering calculation :-)
> >
> >The "1.356 watts of energy" statement makes no sense.
> >If you mean power, say it, else you may confuse newbies.
> >
> >--
> >Victor
> >'91 ACRX - something different
> >
>
> Actually, 1 ftlb at 60 RPM does not equal 1.365 watts ( if RPM means
> revolutions per minute)
> 1 ftlb at 60 Radians per minute equals 1.365 watts, and 1 ftlb at 60 RPM
> is
> actually 8.57 watts.
>
> Think of it this way : If you are turning a shaft with a 1 lb force at
the
> end of a 1 ft long wrench ( 1 ftlb of torque) , and you turn the shaft
1
> revolution, you are actually pushing the end of the wrench through a
> distance of 6.28 feet (2pi times the radius of the wrench) with a force
of
> 1
> lb. So, you've put in 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
>
> So, 1 ftlb x 1 revolution = 6.28 ftlbs of energy.
> Or, 1 ftlb at 1 RPS = 6.28 ftlbs/sec
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage.
> http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I don`t know if these are exactly what you are looking for but I have a
couple of Hall effect type current sensors out of large DC welders that
might do. These welders were 500 amp units. Problem is that the sensors have
no markings or maker names on them so I have never sat down to try and
figure out the pinouts. I would probably sell them for $ 25 ea. Let me know
OL if you want a picture. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Presently at $16. Good price for a megger:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2597682557
Invaluable for testing insulation on motors. Subjects the windings to high
voltage to see if insulation is OK. Finds high-voltage ground faults that a
regular ohm meter won't detect.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When last week I was mentioning that I had seen a welder armature with both
AC and DC windings but that I had already scrapped out the particular genset
in question and didn't expect to ever see another. Well this weekend
lightning struck, I picked up another identical and complete unit that the
owner said had had a bad ICE but was in otherwise good working condition.
Now the wound portion with the comm I understand how to use it as a DC
motor. But I am a little confused about the AC portion. It looks like an
induction motor on the armature portion and it has a pair of beefy
sliprings. How does one "motor" and control the AC portion? Do you put AC to
the sliprings and vary the DC field current? Or do you run the field on AC
as well? The field case has approx 6 # 2 wires coming out of the case. I
would really appreciate any input on this project as if I build an endplate
with output brg. this looks like a good motor to use on a VW or other
lightweight vehicle and might shed some real world data on the AC/DC hybrid
topic. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
can the zilla settings be changed using, say, a Palm III?
seth
On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 05:05 PM, Otmar wrote:
Hello Rod and Richard and other interested ones.
Couple more questions.
I'm assuming this is flash based.
Yes, it runs a PIC 18F6620.
Do you plan on allowing field software upgrades?
Yes, Even the original Hairball does that.
Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI
converter?
No, the resident bootloader loads hex files through the serial port in
ASCII. Most standard terminals can do it (ZTerm on Macs, Hyperterm in
devil ware)
Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the
bootloader. Is this on board or would it be on
the external board above.
I think you may be thinking of the "in circuit serial programming",
but that is different from a bootloader. My bootloader loads through
the serial port with a text interface.
--- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi Otmar,
> Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
Thanks!
There are some terminals marked "cruise"
> Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
Yes, The inputs are there, the code is not yet. I can imagine all
sorts of modes. (how about constant power to check car efficiency)
> Also, I see an port on the end marked
"EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
into a real production design?
( cool, if it has!)
Again, the Hardware is there, though the parts are not stuffed on the
standard one. (I hope it works!) Once I have code to drive it, I'll
offer the option.
> Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
> to the hairball?
I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
> fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
Hmm, that's a tough one. Not very easy for anyone but me, and even
then not that easy. There are thousands of lines of C code and years
of development in the Hairball. I don't think I want to make that
public at this time. We can talk about it more. Do you have a Hi-Tech
PICC-18 compiler? (Not a cheap item, but it sure works)
I can see how it would be nice to have the automatic transmission
programmable by currents and voltages.
OK, I'm going back to finding a stutter bug. I need to find it before
I ship any of the new HB2s. I don't have any more of the old Hairball
cases to ship so it's all HB2 from here on out.
Lot's of orders to fill... I'm not complaining, but it's work..
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
any palm that works with a serial terminal program.
Typically Zilla owners have been using simple Palms like the M100 series and
terminal programs like ptelnet. You need to be careful because some programs
will not talk properly with similar PDAs, like Handspring, due to the
multiple ports they have.
-Ed Thorpe
Zilla Z1K Sparrow
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Seth Murray
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 6:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Zilla hairball Q's
can the zilla settings be changed using, say, a Palm III?
seth
On Friday, February 20, 2004, at 05:05 PM, Otmar wrote:
> Hello Rod and Richard and other interested ones.
>
>> Couple more questions.
>> I'm assuming this is flash based.
>
> Yes, it runs a PIC 18F6620.
>
>> Do you plan on allowing field software upgrades?
>
> Yes, Even the original Hairball does that.
>
>> Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI
>> converter?
>
> No, the resident bootloader loads hex files through the serial port in
> ASCII. Most standard terminals can do it (ZTerm on Macs, Hyperterm in
> devil ware)
>
>> Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the
>> bootloader. Is this on board or would it be on
>> the external board above.
>
> I think you may be thinking of the "in circuit serial programming",
> but that is different from a bootloader. My bootloader loads through
> the serial port with a text interface.
>
>> --- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Otmar,
>>>
>> > Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
>
> Thanks!
>
>> There are some terminals marked "cruise"
>> > Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
>
> Yes, The inputs are there, the code is not yet. I can imagine all
> sorts of modes. (how about constant power to check car efficiency)
>
>> > Also, I see an port on the end marked
>>> "EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
>>> into a real production design?
>>> ( cool, if it has!)
>
> Again, the Hardware is there, though the parts are not stuffed on the
> standard one. (I hope it works!) Once I have code to drive it, I'll
> offer the option.
>
>> > Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
>> > to the hairball?
>>> I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
>>> control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
>> > fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
>
> Hmm, that's a tough one. Not very easy for anyone but me, and even
> then not that easy. There are thousands of lines of C code and years
> of development in the Hairball. I don't think I want to make that
> public at this time. We can talk about it more. Do you have a Hi-Tech
> PICC-18 compiler? (Not a cheap item, but it sure works)
>
> I can see how it would be nice to have the automatic transmission
> programmable by currents and voltages.
>
> OK, I'm going back to finding a stutter bug. I need to find it before
> I ship any of the new HB2s. I don't have any more of the old Hairball
> cases to ship so it's all HB2 from here on out.
> Lot's of orders to fill... I'm not complaining, but it's work..
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
>
>
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evercel is still in business.
I just receive my order of M100s last week. They still have inventory in New
Hampshire warehouse and production is still happening in Asia. For USA
inquires and orders, check with Bob at www.electricabenergy.com.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:29 PM
To: Zappy List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Evercel is no more!
This paragraph caught my eye because I got a working pack from a pile at a
golf cart supply for free. Lawrence Rhodes......
> Coming home from Boston this PM I took a little side trip to 5 Pond
> Park Rd. in Hingham, Evercel's N. American corporate hq. The door
> was locked, the lights were off, the furniture, computers, phones and
> showroom vehicles were gone, and out back by the dumpster was a huge
> pile of M-100's, all presumably junk.
I would presume nothing and would test them all and take the ones with the
highest voltage............
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:11:51 -0800
From: David Herron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Evercel is no more!
hurm,
There may be a simpler explanation ... such as, since they're in a
"let's preserve cash" mode, they may have moved their office to even
cheaper digs.
For what it's worth, http://evercel.com still functions.
They apparently haven't filed a 10Q with the SEC since the quarter
ending Sep 30, 2003 (hence the filing woulda been in mid October-ish).
According to the information at www.fool.com - in September they had
$5.41 million cash on hand, other assets that make it $10.xx million,
$2.7 million in debt, and losing $.75 million per quarter. Hence they
should be able to last for 2-3 more years at that burn rate.
But, you're right, this doesn't look good.
- David Herron
On Feb 20, 2004, at 8:19 AM, chashb wrote:
> David Hammond has posted this on the power-assist forum. I'm
> repeating it here for all to see:
>
> "From: "voltaiadesigncoop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:12 pm
> Subject: Evercel Is No More
>
>
> Coming home from Boston this PM I took a little side trip to 5 Pond
> Park Rd. in Hingham, Evercel's N. American corporate hq. The door
> was locked, the lights were off, the furniture, computers, phones and
> showroom vehicles were gone, and out back by the dumpster was a huge
> pile of M-100's, all presumably junk.
>
> This has been more or less expected for some time now. What's really
> bugging me is that the website of the factory in the PRC that makes
> (made?) Evercel's batts is also defunct. www.xmerc.com is the url,
> and it worked last year.
>
> I'll see if I can contact Elio to find out what's going on over in
> Xiamen, and Phoenix Motor Cars to see if their Evercel contract was
> ever fulfilled. I'll get back to y'all if I find out anything.
>
> Dave Hammond"
>
> B U M M E R ! ! ! !
>
> Looks like we'll have to wait and see what happens with the Ni-Zn
> battery technology. Oxygen in Italy has claimed to have a direct
> relationship with Evercel's subsidiary, Xiamen, in China. I sure hope
> that's true because if it isn't, I think Oxygen is going to be in
> major trouble as well......
>
> Charlie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> the wound portion with the comm I understand how to use it as a DC
> motor. But I am a little confused about the AC portion. It looks
> like an induction motor on the armature portion and it has a pair
> of beefy sliprings. How does one "motor" and control the AC portion?
Let's ignore the DC armature windings and commutator for a moment.
What's left is a rotor with a winding, brought out to sliprings. You
have a field (let's say a permanent magnet). When you spin the rotor,
the rotor winding produces AC, which is brought out by the sliprings.
You have is a synchronous generator (alternator). The frequency and
voltage are both precisely determined by the speed.
Likewise, you could connect AC to the sliprings, and it would run as a
synchronous motor. It would have the usual starting problems of a
synchronous motor (i.e. produces a net zero torque except at synchronous
speed), but once up to speed it would run efficiently.
Now suppose you have a field winding instead of a PM field. If you
*shorted* the field winding, you have an inside-out induction motor
(squirrel-cage on the outside, AC windings on the inside). This provides
a way to get it started as an AC motor. Short the field until it comes
up to speed, then apply DC current to the field to change it to a
synchronous motor.
The DC current on the field controls the AC voltage on the rotor
sliprings. Thus, you have a way to regulate the AC voltage independently
of speed.
Finally, let's consider the DC armature and commutator. This is a second
DC motor-generator that operates (somewhat) independently from the AC
machine. Like a transformer, there is a fixed ratio between the AC and
DC windings. In fact, they can *be* the same winding, in which case you
have an autotransformer with no isolation.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(EDTA EV/hybrid/fcv Conf&Expo 9/21-23/04 Orlando, FL $$$)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint
rights.]
--- {EVangel}
-
EDTA Announces
Electric Drive Transportation Association Conference 2004
Washington, DC February 20, 2004
The Electric Drive Transportation Association Conference &
Exposition 2004: Mobilizing the Market will be held from
September 21-23, 2004 in Orlando, Florida. The conference will
provide a comprehensive and hands-on forum for information
exchange, business venture development, and market forecasting
and sales and will feature electric drive industry experts,
policy leaders and academia from around the globe. All
symposium, exposition, Ride n Drive, and networking events
will
take place at the inclusive Gaylord Palms Resort and Convention
Center in Orlando.
EDTA s conference series has established itself as the premier
showcase for emerging electric transportation technologies and
related infrastructure. The 2004 event will include plenary
sessions featuring key government officials and industry leaders
from around the world.
Concurrent track sessions will feature panel discussions devoted
to three primary topics: policy, marketing and market
development,
and technology. In-depth coverage of electric transportation
(battery, hybrid and fuel cell), as well as a series of
pre-conference workshops, will provide an educational
opportunity unavailable at any other industry event in 2004.
Other key elements include an exposition showcasing new and
emerging battery, hybrid and fuel cell products, and a vehicle
Ride n Drive of electric drive cars, bikes, scooters and
off-road vehicles.
The EDTA Conference 2004 agenda and activities reflect the
growth
and change taking place in this exciting industry, stated Ed
LaRocque, National Manager of Advanced Technology Vehicles for
Toyota Motor Sales, USA and EDTA Conferences Committee Chairman.
This conference provides a showcase for all electric drive
technologies-battery, hybrid and fuel cell- and demonstrates how
industry is mobilizing the market for widespread use of
electric drive.
The Gaylord Palms has the largest in-hotel exposition facility
in Florida, featuring 400,000 square feet of available meeting,
convention and exhibit space. The resort is conveniently
located
just minutes from Walt Disney World , SeaWorld Adventure Park,
and Universal Studios . The amenities and location ensures that
EDTA Conference attendees can plan to enjoy their time outside
of a busy conference agenda.
For more information about the EDTA Conference, visit
www.edtaconference.com or call EDTA at 202-408-0774.
##
EDTA is the industry association working to advance electric
vehicles and supporting infrastructure through policy,
information
and communication initiatives in the United States. EDTA is the
premier organizer of electric transportation industry events and
conferences, and EDTA is pleased to sponsor all international
Electric Vehicle Symposia (EVS) held in the Americas, as well as
the Electric Transportation Industry Conference series. For
more
information on EDTA, visit www.electricdrive.org .
-
-
From: "Jennifer Watts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: EDTA Conference & Exposition 2004--Press
Release--2-20-04
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:32:08 -0500
Attached is a press release with details about The Electric
Drive
Transportation Association Conference & Exposition 2004:
Mobilizing
the Market, which will be held from September 21-23, 2004 in
Orlando, Florida. The conference will provide a comprehensive
and
hands-on forum for information exchange, business venture
development, and market forecasting and sales � and will feature
electric drive industry experts, policy leaders and academia
from
around the globe. Other key elements include an exposition
showcasing new and emerging battery, hybrid and fuel cell
products,
and a vehicle �Ride�n�Drive� of electric drive cars, bikes,
scooters and off-road vehicles.
Please call with questions.
Jennifer Watts
EDTA
1350 I Street, NW
Suite 1050
Washington, DC 20005
202.408.0774
202.408.7610 fax
www.electricdrive.org
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
