EV Digest 3907
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I hate batteries, comments
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Car Title Help: WAS - RE: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post, Free! see below!
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Stewart Freaks Branson on Daily Show
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: marketing hydrogen, Now charger connection safety.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: marketing hydrogen, really
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Car Title Help: WAS - RE: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post,
Free! see below!
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) I love batts, Low costs!! was Re: I hate batteries, comments
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I hate batteries
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Electric Sailboat conversion (was: RE: I love batts, Low costs!! was
Re: I hate batteries, comments)
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: marketing hydrogen, Now charger connection safety.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Precharge Resistor Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: I love batts, Low costs!! was Re: I hate batteries, comments
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Electric Sailboat conversion
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Sailboat conversion
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: marketing hydrogen, really
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 2254
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: marketing hydrogen, Now charger connection safety.
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A couple points first,
The inrush being attributed the residual magnitizim from the last time
it was operated is Bunk. If this was true, the fact of turn on and
turning
off a transformer would dramaticly change the permanent magnetism effects.
Some days your hammer would stick to the transformer some it would not.
And
this never happens in the real world.
The hammer will never stick, no matter what. The magnetic field is
contained by the loop of the transformer! It can't escape besides leakage!
Put a C-lam around a normal magnet and it will do the same. Try it with a
bar magnet (and good luck getting it off). Besides, I think John's research
sort of speaks for itself. Ironically I just "learned" about this all in
class yesterday.
And 2 the Zero crossing solid state relay was designed to reduce the
inrush
in inductive loads. So... it was designed to reduce this effect. Knowing
the
solid state Physics... if fun.... but Just knowing what works and what
does
not is more important.
Something I found with a quick Google search:
http://relays.globalspec.com/Industrial-Directory/solid_state_relay
- The model RVM is a rugged family of power controller available in three
- phase and single phase versions rated for 40 amps at 660 VAC. The Model
- RVM offers zero cross firing for fixed resistance loads, which is almost
silent
- in operation and can eliminate the switch-on surge by operating in
- synchronization with the supply without degrading the electrical
environment.
Followed by this:
http://www.ab.com/industrialcontrols/products/relays_timers_and_temp_controllers/solid-state_relays/pdf/700-sh.pdf ,
page 7
- A SSR with a zero cross function operates when an AC load voltage reaches
- the zero point or its vicinity. This reduces clicking noises when the load
is
- switched, and minimizes the influence of an inductive load, such as a
lamp,
- heater, or motor, on the power supply because the inrush current of the
load is
- reduced. This can also minimize the scale of the inrush current protection
circuit.
Since when was a lamp or heater an inductive load? A motor has a power
factor of usually >0.8 at least at steady state. That's pretty far from 0
(cos 90). "Inductive" at 20kHz, yes, but not 60Hz.
There's more...Pheonix Contact, Allegro Micro, very trusted sources:
http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/phoenix/relay5.htm
- AC load-switching SSRs function best when they're able to turn the circuit
- OFF when the AC wave passes through the zero point, when both voltage
- and current are at or very close to zero. This technique is called zero
- crossing or zero switching.
(I did not capitalize the "OFF" - it was that way in the page.) This is
what I said in my last post. If you turn off the transformer when there is
only the Br (top/bottom of the hysteresis when H=0) left, you at least
improve the situation. Plus it's easy.
I'm not as theoretical as you all probably think...I spend half the day
discussing with my Cambodian friend why practice and hands-on work is so
important!
- Art
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Bob. I'll get another set of 20ea Trojan good ol T105's. I'll check
back with BatteryMart in Harrisonburg, VA and check the warrantee but the
US125's have a 1 year warranty and it's been 1 year and a month, oops. That
blem idea sounds good. The batteries are a pain to change, takes all
week-end to get all 20 out of their hatches, replace and put the cables back
on. I now see why a pick-up would be good, just back up and hit the brakes!
well almost. Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: I hate batteries, comments
> Hi Mark;
>
> Gees! I thought I had it bad with batteries!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 8:52 AM
> Subject: I hate batteries
>
>
> Well, I have only 7700 miles on my US125's 20ea for 120V system and my
> battery scanner is showing #13 and #15 running dead after only 15 miles of
> travel, used to have 30 mile range. Previously I had 14 of the US8VGC-HD-s
> which went 10k miles.
>
> I would think that your "duty cycle " would be easy on batteries??
only
> 15 miles a day. Gees! I can see your disapointment. I have beaten a
hellova
> lot of batteries to death in the last 5 years. Ran a lot of used ones at
> first, Trojan T 105's at first 22k from my FIRST pack, with the 3 speed
> contactor controller, no less! Tried US'es, used, they didn't last more
than
> a few months, but they were used, too, no way to tell HOW used. Cells died
> right and left! They went to the recyling center real quick! My battery
guy
> suggested Dyno batteries, out of Seattle. OK awile, but I did the NO NO,
ran
> them DEAD, car would hardly go, that was the end of them!I did that to the
> Trojans, too, but they didn't seem to care....as much. In about 6k miles
> their version of the T 125 were shot. They had a 2 year gaurantee, he gave
> me a NEW set. Gees! A battery guy that honored the 2 year gaurentee a year
> and change early. I passed them on to Tony Ascrizzi for HIS Rabbit. He has
a
> far less demanding cycle on his driving cycle. Some of the Red Beastie T
> 105's soldier on in my Rabbit today, as we played musical batteries awile.
I
> went through a set of T 145's, about 21k, in the meantime. They went damn
> quick, when they went. At first one would do the "Trojan Teakettle, one
cell
> would be boiling over. Junk it, sigh! Then a few weaks later another! They
> go in sympathy with the last one. I started looking for a few used ones
from
> my battery guy. Nope, none in right now. A month later I could BARELY get
> the 26 miles to the RR, work, I HAD to plug in for sure. When they were
> newer a 56 mile RT was no problem. A few of the healthyer ones are in my
> Electrac for now. They fit fine in my higher battery box I built it.
> Planning on winter snowthrowing duty wth the E 20, the rest of them I gave
> away to a guy on the Electrac List
>
> I hava new, well used a bit set of T 145's to switch over to, but the
> set of T 105's are doing fine, although I sure notice a drop in range in
the
> cold now. I keep the Rabbit in a warmer than outside ,attached garage, The
> PFC 20 heats it a little.
>
> Never tried the 8 volters, havent heard anything good about them on
the
> List Mark do ya have a battery distributer near you? A place that
recieves
> truckloads of batteries. When they get them by the ton mile they get
> damaged, dinged, blemmed. they can't sell them new, but they may blow them
> out cheap? Rather then scrapping them. Or a used set? I have had good luck
> with used. But stick with Trojans! I have tried others but end up with a
> carload of Trojans. I had mix and match Trojans and US'es, awile, the USes
> don't play well with Trojans, they boiled away, in discust, right quick!
>
>
> In my Electro-Metro I used regular-bimbo Sam's T-105's (Trojan) (14ea) and
> got 14K miles but when switched to 14ea US8VGC's I only got 9k miles. I
> thought the 125's would last at *least* 14k miles since I charge at both
> ends, work & home and only drive 15 miles to work now (with some running
> around for parts at lunch <10 miles).
>
> I payed $1200 for the 125's, guess I'll go back to 20 T105's from Sam's
(but
> they stopped putting handles on them, dumb) or some other el cheapo place.
> Does anyone know of a better golf cart battery that doesn't cost an arm &
a
> leg? I'd love to have NiMh etc, but don't see how I could afford >$10k for
a
> pack.
>
> If ya find that, we'd all like to know<g>!
>
> The age old problem. We ALL hate batteries, but what are ya gunna do?
I
> think that battery longevity depends on THAT production run THAT day, for
> the same#$%^ battery! Howcom I get 20 k out of one set, 6k out of
anotherI
> sound like a plug for Trojan, sorry, but I have had the best results with.
> Maybe at the cost of gas and Diseasel goes up to the World price we will
> actually save money with electrics? Like if all the money I have spent on
> EV's went for Diseasel Fuel for my Diesel Rabbit, I'd be ahead of the
game,
> anyhow? I figure that the more I use the EV the less that I crap up the
air.
> And that's a good thing, for sure, less noise, parts to replace, on and
on.
>
> A EV is a bit like a sailboat. To keep a sailboat up is hidiously
> expensine, you could say the hell with it and buy a stinkpot(motor boat)
but
> there is something we sailers love about a sailboat. she slips through the
> water so easily, silently, when you're trimmed just right, beautiful,
> relaxing! You sailers know what I mean. "Raghaulers "to the Motor , no
> engine , if it was a true "Motor" boat, wouldn't it be electric? GM would
be
> General ENGINES? Sigh! Boat crowd, but no gas or Diseasel stink out on the
> water, of course you share the racket and stink with everybody ELSE out on
> the water. So I EV , but don't really look at how much it costs, My
> hobby, like I coulda kept the boat, and spent as much money, or MORE for
the
> few daze I would have time to use the#$%^ thing. But I use the EV daily,
to
> work, and all the other enchanting places I hafta go, EVery day.
>
> My two cells worth
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I would be highly interested in buying this car as my first road
EV and have talked/emailed with Seth several times last week. Unfortunately
Seth doesn't have a title and I can neither register nor scrap
a vehicle without a title in Virginia (so what would I do with
the empty shell if I did transplant the stuff?). Ideally I
would like to play with the EV components in the current car
and drive it over the winter for very brief trips before
I tackle a transplant next spring.
Is there anybody out there that could help with getting a
title for this car or has tips on how to do so?
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Donnerstag, 11. November 2004 10:13
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post, Free! see below!
>
>
>
>
> Hi Seth;
>
> I'm surprised! When Mark an' I bought it in Delaware we
> had to beat out
> about a duzen OTHER folks to get it! It isn't pretty,
> anymore, it wasn't
> EVer pretty, but it WAS usable, folks ,and parts on the hoof
> for another
> Rabbit or Jetta.
>
> Free FREE! Anybody in thre East Coast buys this Bunnny,
> and gives it a
> loving home. I hava 88 Jetta I wanna get rid of. Please take
> it too! Whadda
> deal! Transfer all the eklectricals over.
>
> OK ya don't even hafta buy the bunny, but make Seth's day!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:44 AM
> Subject: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post
>
>
> > Never got anytone who was willing to show up with money to take the
> > wabbit off my hands so it is on the tradin' post now.
> >
> > Seth
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Trilateral+commission
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 12:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Stewart Freaks Branson on Daily Show
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:34 AM
Subject: Stewart Freaks Branson on Daily Show
> Branson runs a great Rock & Roll airline... but he's a total Trilateral
> sell-out! I fear John Stewart just jumped the shark last night. By the
way,
> for those of you still interested, Branson's reality show is a crashing
> bore...
>
> Remy C.
> ET webed
>
Although it's funny that sombeody freaked Branson out..
I see that Remy's complete underdstanding of how the world really works.
Is just as Flawed as Ever.
Trilateral What???
For 99.999% of the world if it ain't Gas or Diesel they can't move. This
fact is going to take Decades to over come.. Even if we get favorable funds
from Billionares, and have a understanding public.
It's not the Big Corp Guys that are the stick in the Muds, it's Joe Six
pack, and the Soccer Moms.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
At 1:09 PM -0500 11-11-04, Christopher Zach wrote:
Put a 50 Kw conductive port there and we ALL would beable to use it.
Mmmm... Thing about Avcon though is that the power into the cable is
ultimately controlled by a contactor, correct? Mechanical thing that can
stick and leave it "on".
Even if the MC is running full-bore you can chew on the paddle and not
have bad things happen. I suppose you could rip off the cable, stick
that in your mouth, and see what happens; I wonder if it would continue
to put out HF AC, or if the circuit would collapse without the final
inductor.
I really like the concept of inductive charging. It seems to have a
natural failure to not work, and requires significant effort to make it
work in any case. Safer that way.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The paddle is a major efficientcy hit, and it is THE most complicted and
expensive way to transfer electrical power from the Grid to the EV.
Eh, I'll check my numbers, but since the MC includes the charger, the
regulators, and all the other love I'd have to include the overall
efficiency compared to a complete PFC. What's the wall-to-battery
efficiency of a PFC 30 (that's a 6kw charger)?
(From what I've seen it's pretty close up to the final float charge, at
which point the logic and fans and goodness drop the eff into the drain.
But life's like that. I can put a meter on it and verify the computer is
not lying to me)
And GM tried to tie up the market with it, and then left California with the
Bill and no support or EVs.
Bad GM. They also screwed over CA with the EV1 and dropped support for
my Dolphin. Doesn't mean that the technology is not good.
Nope sorry I can't buy it as a viable charger.
Viable? I think it's pretty good compared to anything less than say a
PFC. It also is isolated :-) (ducks)
It is the altimate violater of the Kiss pricnicple.
Extremely true, which is one of it's positives. If things are not right,
it will not fire up. It requires a lot of fuss and muss to work, so if
your batteries are disconnected or if the wires get cut or monsters come
to your house it dies. Kind of like an AC system vs. a DC system: The DC
systems have a fault of fail on; AC's worst case is a fault of
fail-locked (and that would require serious weirdness in the IGBTs
IIRC). A pure KISS charger is a bad-boy.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know how it works in Virginia, but in Minnesota if you buy a
car without a title you can apply for one at the DMV. Show proof of
purchase, fill out some paperwork, wait some waiting period so they
know no one is going to report it stolen and then they will issue a
new title. Now, Virginia is obviously going to have its own
policies, but my point is to call your DMV and ask.
Keith
At 3:07 PM -0500 11/11/04, Markus L wrote:
All,
I would be highly interested in buying this car as my first road
EV and have talked/emailed with Seth several times last week. Unfortunately
Seth doesn't have a title and I can neither register nor scrap
a vehicle without a title in Virginia (so what would I do with
the empty shell if I did transplant the stuff?). Ideally I
would like to play with the EV components in the current car
and drive it over the winter for very brief trips before
I tackle a transplant next spring.
Is there anybody out there that could help with getting a
title for this car or has tips on how to do so?
Markus
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Donnerstag, 11. November 2004 10:13
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post, Free! see below!
Hi Seth;
I'm surprised! When Mark an' I bought it in Delaware we
had to beat out
about a duzen OTHER folks to get it! It isn't pretty,
anymore, it wasn't
EVer pretty, but it WAS usable, folks ,and parts on the hoof
for another
Rabbit or Jetta.
Free FREE! Anybody in thre East Coast buys this Bunnny,
and gives it a
loving home. I hava 88 Jetta I wanna get rid of. Please take
it too! Whadda
deal! Transfer all the eklectricals over.
OK ya don't even hafta buy the bunny, but make Seth's day!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: 1980 rabbit on the tradin' post
> Never got anytone who was willing to show up with money to take the
> wabbit off my hands so it is on the tradin' post now.
>
> Seth
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and All
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mark;
>
> Gees! I thought I had it bad with batteries!
>
> The age old problem. We ALL hate batteries, but
> what are ya gunna do? I
> think that battery longevity depends on THAT
> production run THAT day, for
> the same#$%^ battery! Howcom I get 20 k out of one
> set, 6k out of anotherI
> sound like a plug for Trojan, sorry, but I have had
> the best results with.
> Maybe at the cost of gas and Diseasel goes up to the
> World price we will
> actually save money with electrics? Like if all the
> money I have spent on
> EV's went for Diseasel Fuel for my Diesel Rabbit,
> I'd be ahead of the game,
> anyhow? I figure that the more I use the EV the less
> that I crap up the air.
> And that's a good thing, for sure, less noise, parts
> to replace, on and on.
Now this is where I don't get most EV'ers. They, by
using heavy, non-aero auto conversions so raise batt
costs that it becomes more than the fuel you save
though that's quickly coming to an end with higher gas
prices.
By using a build from scratch, low drag, aero EV,
the batt, EV drive part costs are much lower and can
beat an ICE's total costs easily.
Some lightweight, aero conversions like a VW Ghia,
MR-2 can get close.
My costs are now about $.01/mile for electric and
$.025-.035/mile for batts projected as they are only 2
yrs old, T-105's, based on 10,000miles/pack.
And when batt replacement does come, it's more like
$400/48vdc pack or $600/72vdc for the pack instead of
$1200 or more.
So for about $.04/mile total electric and batt
costs, mine are lower than even a Prius does for
fuel!!! And my batt pack even costs less than the
Prius' does!!! And the cost of building it was under
$1k with new batts!!!
For the freedom from high transport costs,
increased national and economic security, less
terrorism, war, I really love batteries, EV's!!!!
On used batts, they are ok when beginning to learn
on, in fact a great way to go, a new set is heaven!!!
They are stable and need little care other than
watering about every 2 months and plugging in after
driving. And unlike the used batts, stay equalized
nicely.
Not true with used ni-cads though, hopefully I'll
find some reasonable priced used ones before these
T-105's bite it.
>
> A EV is a bit like a sailboat. To keep a
> sailboat up is hidiously
> expensine, you could say the hell with it and buy a
Yes it can but doesn't have too. I built a 32'
cruising cat for about $3k.
And I have cruised the Carribean for about
$2k/yr in sailboats, you can't do that with a
powerboat at all!
While everyone else fought it out under
Regean/Bush41 economic recession yrs, I lived quite
nicely sailing around working very little, eating
seafood, playing, bulding wind, tidal gens for other
sailors, liveaboards.
And as for ICE motors in boats, they are very
unreliable around salt water, costly in repairs at
least as much as the boats sails, rigging.
My next big sailboat will be EV drive, charging
while anchored in, from a tidal current or while
sailing. The only ICE being and emergency DC gen
rarely used.
This tidal power will mostly be for ship's
electricity as the next one will have AC, electric
heat to run from the EV drive, there is so much power
available from the tides. Would also charge the
E-dinghy and maybe my EV.
By having a sailboat that performs well in light
air, you rarely need a motor anyway. Some of the most
fun I had was sailing from docks, moorings, and
through the intercostal waterway, tidal currents to
get to the open sea while everyone else used their
motors. Open sea sailing wasn't nearly as challenging
as getting to it!
The most interesting was from the Las Olas
anchorage in Ft Laud to the sea and up the New river,
up current and wind and less tham 100 yards wide!
So to conclude, while EV's and sailboats can
cost too much, they don't have to if done right.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> stinkpot(motor boat) but
> there is something we sailers love about a sailboat.
> she slips through the
> water so easily, silently, when you're trimmed just
> right, beautiful,
> relaxing! You sailers know what I mean. "Raghaulers
> "to the Motor , no
> engine , if it was a true "Motor" boat, wouldn't it
> be electric? GM would be
> General ENGINES? Sigh! Boat crowd, but no gas or
> Diseasel stink out on the
> water, of course you share the racket and stink with
> everybody ELSE out on
> the water. So I EV , but don't really look at how
> much it costs, My
> hobby, like I coulda kept the boat, and spent as
> much money, or MORE for the
> few daze I would have time to use the#$%^ thing. But
> I use the EV daily, to
> work, and all the other enchanting places I hafta
> go, EVery day.
>
> My two cells worth
>
> Bob
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, Bob & All,
Bob mentioned another potential alternative and although they're assembled on
the "left"
coast,
I think(?) Dyno still has distributors out your way
http://www.dynobattery.com/deepcycle.htm
I visited their manufacturing facility ~5 years ago when I was considering
replacing my
T-225's. They were referred to me by a friend who operates a commercial ferry
boat (Dyno
is located almost adjacent to Fisherman's terminal in Seattle and apparently
they garnered
much of their reputation and business through the boating & automotive markets).
They have "equivalents" to most standard 6/12/24 battery sizes including the
deep cycle
versions above, and claim to have improved battery components and processes (of
course,
what else are they going to say, "we build el cheapo batteries with crappy
materials and
processes"?). They had very competitive prices, but even with that, I gave up
on securing
an additional EV group discount price (not enough folks interested at the
time), and
eventually ended up going through one of the "hungrier" local Trojan
distributors. I have
to agree with Bob about Trojan: they seem to have the best/better consistency
from batch
to batch (although my only other comparison was with Interstate/Johnson
Controls deep
cyclers).
I think Neon also had some more recent experience with Dyno, and maybe if he
chimes in and
his comments are positive, perhaps Dyno's are worth another try?
Jim Waite
(Note: standard EVDL vendor association disclaimer applies:-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry Dycus stated:
> So to conclude, while EV's and sailboats can cost too much, they don't have
> to if done right.
There's a growing number of sailboat owners who are ditching their diesels in
favor of going electric w/generator backup. Several are using ETEK or ADC
motors, 1 or 2 banks of batts at 36-48v and a 2kw Honda EU2000i genset. Most
of the discussions are taking place on the Electricboating and the
Electricboats Yahoo Groups. Discussions also occur at the EBAA (Electric
Boating Assoc. of America) site.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/
http://www.eboat.org/forum/
These conversions are occurring for all the right reasons: energy efficiency,
reduced noise and vibration, cost effectiveness and reliability.
-Myles Twete, Electric Bargeboat "Reach of Tide"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. Otmar and Rich's experience with EV's: 1,000,000
Chris' experience with EV's: 3
I'll defer. I do like the MC system overall, and if anyone wants to toss
a complete one out of their car I would love to put it in my Elec-Trak.
Come to think of it I could probably also put one in the Power Wheel.
*THAT* would be cool.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> ...Precharge Resistor for Curtis controllers... Since the resistor
> is connected across the terminals of the contactor, there is a
> connection from the traction batteries to the Curtis controller
> (i.e. a completed circuit) at all times when the battery pack is
> connected, regardless of whether the key is on or not. This
> precharges the capacitors in the controller and keeps them that
> way even while the car is off. Is that correct?
Yes. It minimizes wear and tear on the contactors and capacitors. But it
also means the controller has to withstand the peak charger voltage
(which is significantly higher than pack voltage). If the charger is not
isolated, it puts significant stress on the controller from powerline
surges and transients. And, with the capacitors always charged, the
motor can lurch forward if the accellerator pedal is pushed, using the
stored energy in the capacitors.
> My question is: To provide extra safety in case a contactor were
> to fail in the on position, I'm considering putting two contactors
> in the circuit, one on the pack's positive side and one on the
> negative side.
A good idea. This is how my EV is built. If one can't break the circuit,
the other one will.
> so should I divide the resistor's value by two and put half the
> ohms on each contactor?
You can. But, I put the precharge resistor across only the positive
contactor. The starting sequence is then to a) close the negative side
contactor, b) wait for the controller to precharge, c) then close the
positive side contactor.
You can accomplish the sequencing a number of ways; manually, or with
time delay relays, or with a circuit that senses when the controller has
been precharged.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "jerry dycus"
> Now this is where I don't get most EV'ers. They, by
> using heavy, non-aero auto conversions so raise batt
> costs that it becomes more than the fuel you save
> though that's quickly coming to an end with higher gas
> prices.
Jerry has sure got that right. Everything gets easier in a
lightweight, aerodynamic car. Everything runs cooler, the
batteries and everything else lasts longer, they are cheaper
to run, a smaller pack can be used, etc.
I recently did the math on the operation costs of my
Ghia and found that I'm indeed ahead in the price comparison
of gasoline VS the battery pack. This is even true in my situation,
where I could have driven the car much further over the years
than I have, further dropping the cost per mile. However....
I didn't come out ahead if I did the calculation using stock MPG
figures on the Ghia, although it did come out very close. Taking
into consideration that the car now has 4 times the power that it
originally had, it's not fair to compare against stock MPG anyway.
Considering what kind of a hotrodded engine it would take
to match the EV's performance and use a more realistic, even
optimistic mileage figure, I come out way ahead! And I'm far
from done with this battery pack, in fact just the other day I took
it on its first real cross country trip.
Seeya,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am not affiliated with them but, there is a commercial company here in
FL that installs electric drive systems in boats (mostly sail). They are
up near Tampa, in Tarpon Springs. The company is Solomon Technologies
(http://solomontechnologies.com/).
They are installing BLDC motors and control systems. The company went
public last year and claims a lot of proprietary technology; however, I
have seen a couple of the catamarans they have installed drives in and
its all pretty straightforward stuff. They replace the existing inboard
engine(s) with a BLDC motor(s). Other than maybe the motor itself, all
the rest is off-the-shelf stuff for BLDC drives. They claim special
design considerations and magnet technology for the motors. They do nice
work though. They are currently working with two cat builders to install
the drives systems at the factories. This way you could order the boat
with an electric drive. The two-motor setup on the cats is quite nice
for maneuvering, two joystick controls make docking easy!
The boats still require a generator to keep the batteries topped off and
run all the heavy loads like reefers and A/C, but you can drag the props
under sail and use the motor to regen and charge the batteries as well.
Some builders are installing larger PV arrays to help with the
recharging.
One of the boats is built over in South Africa and I talked to one of
the crew members who sailed it over. They said normally the diesel gen
would run about 16 to 18hrs a day underway, with the PV and regen off
the motors under sail, the diesel only 4 to 6 hrs. He said they want to
increase the battery pack capacity and they only lost a little under a
knot of speed dragging the props.
It's almost perfect, the ability to travel, produce (or harness, in the
case of sailboats) the energy for travel, and recharge all with
alternative / renewable energy.
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MYLES ANTHONY TWETE
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 18:25
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Electric Sailboat conversion (was: RE: I love batts, Low
costs!! was Re: I hate batteries, comments)
Jerry Dycus stated:
> So to conclude, while EV's and sailboats can cost too much, they don't
have to if done right.
There's a growing number of sailboat owners who are ditching their
diesels in favor of going electric w/generator backup. Several are
using ETEK or ADC motors, 1 or 2 banks of batts at 36-48v and a 2kw
Honda EU2000i genset. Most of the discussions are taking place on the
Electricboating and the Electricboats Yahoo Groups. Discussions also
occur at the EBAA (Electric Boating Assoc. of America) site.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/
http://www.eboat.org/forum/
These conversions are occurring for all the right reasons: energy
efficiency, reduced noise and vibration, cost effectiveness and
reliability.
-Myles Twete, Electric Bargeboat "Reach of Tide"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't there some sort of problem with batteries and salt water? I seem to
recall either explosions or poison gas.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: Electric Sailboat conversion
I am not affiliated with them but, there is a commercial company here in
FL that installs electric drive systems in boats (mostly sail). They are
up near Tampa, in Tarpon Springs. The company is Solomon Technologies
(http://solomontechnologies.com/).
They are installing BLDC motors and control systems. The company went
public last year and claims a lot of proprietary technology; however, I
have seen a couple of the catamarans they have installed drives in and
its all pretty straightforward stuff. They replace the existing inboard
engine(s) with a BLDC motor(s). Other than maybe the motor itself, all
the rest is off-the-shelf stuff for BLDC drives. They claim special
design considerations and magnet technology for the motors. They do nice
work though. They are currently working with two cat builders to install
the drives systems at the factories. This way you could order the boat
with an electric drive. The two-motor setup on the cats is quite nice
for maneuvering, two joystick controls make docking easy!
The boats still require a generator to keep the batteries topped off and
run all the heavy loads like reefers and A/C, but you can drag the props
under sail and use the motor to regen and charge the batteries as well.
Some builders are installing larger PV arrays to help with the
recharging.
One of the boats is built over in South Africa and I talked to one of
the crew members who sailed it over. They said normally the diesel gen
would run about 16 to 18hrs a day underway, with the PV and regen off
the motors under sail, the diesel only 4 to 6 hrs. He said they want to
increase the battery pack capacity and they only lost a little under a
knot of speed dragging the props.
It's almost perfect, the ability to travel, produce (or harness, in the
case of sailboats) the energy for travel, and recharge all with
alternative / renewable energy.
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MYLES ANTHONY TWETE
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 18:25
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Electric Sailboat conversion (was: RE: I love batts, Low
costs!! was Re: I hate batteries, comments)
Jerry Dycus stated:
So to conclude, while EV's and sailboats can cost too much, they don't
have to if done right.
There's a growing number of sailboat owners who are ditching their
diesels in favor of going electric w/generator backup. Several are
using ETEK or ADC motors, 1 or 2 banks of batts at 36-48v and a 2kw
Honda EU2000i genset. Most of the discussions are taking place on the
Electricboating and the Electricboats Yahoo Groups. Discussions also
occur at the EBAA (Electric Boating Assoc. of America) site.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/
http://www.eboat.org/forum/
These conversions are occurring for all the right reasons: energy
efficiency, reduced noise and vibration, cost effectiveness and
reliability.
-Myles Twete, Electric Bargeboat "Reach of Tide"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>> Put a 50 Kw conductive port there and we ALL would be able to
>> use it. True, however MagneCharger is the solution where you
>> could stick the paddle in your mouth and have nothing go wrong.
Actually, most of the EVs that could have used an Avcon or Magnecharger
port have been crushed or destroyed. It's likely that a negligible
number of new EVs will use them, too. So these two systems are probably
dead ends.
>> It's just really a safe solution. The fact that my 4 year old
>> can plug in the electric car and I'm comfortable with this
>> says a lot.
The Magnecharger was perceived and marketed as safe, but there is no
data to show that it was in fact any safer than the Avcon (or any other
well-designed system, for that matter).
The safety in any charging system (inductive or conductive) comes from
having the two mating halves shut down when not connected, and fully
shrouded when connected and powered.
>> Thing about Avcon though is that the power into the cable is
>> ultimately controlled by a contactor, correct? Mechanical thing
>> that can stick and leave it "on".
When you are worried about this, you use "intrinsically safe"
contactors. These have a physical insulator that is shoved between the
contacts in the off position. They are designed so it is impossible for
them to weld as long as you apply them correctly.
Fuses and circuit breakers are more common examples of "intrinsically
safe" switches that are guaranteed to fail open and not closed.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Stick that paddle in your mouth... and pray it does not go active,
> or else all your fillings would melt in your head!
There are interlocks to prevent it from going active when not inserted,
of course. But you are right; if it *did* go active, it would melt your
ring and watch right off your hand!
> The paddle is a major efficiency hit, and is THE most complicated
> and expensive way to transfer electrical power from the grid to
> the EV.
I disagree. The inductive concept is a good idea -- it is the
Magnecharger's implementation of it that is flawed.
Like any first implementation, GM was inexperienced and extremely
conservative in the Magnecharger design. This resulted in a very
complex, expensive, inefficient, and awkward design.
> And GM tried to tie up the market with it, and then left California
> with the Bill and no support or EVs.
This is the worst part of the Magnecharger legacy.
> It is the ultimate violator of the Kiss principle.
> Now...If we could cut it's cost in about 1/8, and make it as
> reliable as an Anderson connector... I would be interested in it.
And of course we can!
To begin with, the basic idea of inductive coupling is that you want a
transformer-isolated charger. A transformer is about 90-95% efficient.
It doesn't make any difference if you saw it in two, and put half in the
car and half on a cord. So, you can have a perfectly normal cheap simple
transformer-rectifier charger that just happens to be inductively
coupled.
If you do this at 60hz, the transformer is rather big; about 20 lbs per
KW. So, a 2kw charger has a 40 lb transformer. If you cut it in half,
your "paddle" is going to weigh about 20 lbs. Too much.
But, you can position your "saw cut" to minimize the size of the paddle
portion. Basically, you put only the primary winding and a small slice
of the core that goes inside it in the paddle. The secondary and 90% of
the core are in the car. Now your paddle is more like 5 lbs. This would
be barely tolerable for a 2kw charger.
For higher power, you have to go to higher frequencies. The transformer
itself is just as efficient; in fact, you can actually gain a little
efficiency. But now you need an inverter to convert 60hz to your higher
frequency. So, the efficiency comes out a bit less overall -- 85-90%.
But, if you were building a switchmode charger anyway, there is no
intrinsic difference in efficiency with the transformer split in half.
The problem with the Magnecharger is that it has a) a conventional 60hz
transformer for isolation, b) a PFC stage, c) the inverter to drive the
high frequency transformer's primary (the paddle), and d) another DC/DC
in the car to transform the high frequency transformer's secondary
voltage to whatever you really wanted for charging. Each stage costs you
efficiency, and by the time they got done, there were enough parts in
there to build *four* chargers!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 2254
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 01:18:20 -0500
Hi EVerybody;
2254, OK the leadin here That's Amtrak's No. for the 4pm Sunday Acela
Express, NY to Boston. It happens EVery Sunday, nothing particulary
exciting
thing about that, 'cept one thing. I't's MINE! Well, I only get to borrow
it
for a run, my FIRST unacumpanied "Flight" Had gone to the training school
for them when they first came out, but hadn't wanted to dive right in, had
nice cushy short run in hours jobs, home every evening, weakends off. Sorta
like other RR guyz get into as retirement looms. OK MY time is winding
down,
I can take the pension this Dec. Sooo if I want bragging rights to running
Amtrak's fastest, better bid it in for awile. Then I can say I've flown
EVerything from GGG-1's to Acelas' only took 30 years, and lots of other
equipment that feature promently in hobby shops windows in the train dept.
Bob thank you for a great true story, and your contributions to our EV
community. I am pleasantly green with envy as our beloved monorail is still
not in operation. Regards, A.K. Howard here in the cool Las Vegas valley and
enjoying life at 8 cents per kwh.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
I'll defer. I do like the MC system overall, and if anyone wants to toss a
complete one out of their car I would love to put it in my Elec-Trak.
Come to think of it I could probably also put one in the Power Wheel.
*THAT* would be cool.
As I recall, when originally proposed the MagneCharger system was supposed
to be able to work with any voltage. Somehow when GM implemented it, they
ended up only able to support high voltage EVs. AFAIK it can't be used
with anything more reasonable.
BTW, several years ago I fitted my Civic EV conversion with an Avcon
receptacle. That proved handy, NOT. The only Avcon charge point in the
Kansas City area is in my garage. I am considering switching it back to
the male 240V 30A twist lock it originally had.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
