EV Digest 3932
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Modular Charger
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Making 240VAC out of 2 x 120VAC
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Making 240VAC out of 2 x 120VAC
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Modular Charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: After a simple voltmeter circuit using LEDs
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Death of EV author
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Modular Charger
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 12V Battery Monitor
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Modular Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Modular Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) find a way to store or carry electrical power
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) KAZ/Eliica inventor says China will produce hordes of cheap electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: [ETList] Gordon Dower's Ridek
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Death of Ev enthusiast
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Derrick Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Modular Charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Modular Charger
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Location of TWEV pic, & next step, from Ed. Gordon in Plymouth, England
by "jeanedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Modular Charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
What are the drawbacks to using a large buck converter to produce
around 18V, then using smaller, regulated buck converters in parallel
on each individual battery? Would that just be overkill? It's sort
of like using Rudman regs, only each reg is actually a small switching
power supply. But, design is simplified since it's only stepping down
from 18V.
I suppose one large drawback is that the main unit for a 20A charger
would have to produce 20A * # of batteries = lots of amps, but it
might make a little more sense than using that many individual power
supplies. Then again, I suspect if it were really nothing wrong with
it, someone would be doing it already.
-Ben
Another idea would be to use a PFC preregulator and then buck down to
necessary voltages. The PFC preregulator has a nasty habit of being a
few hundred volts though. I've never heard of it - but perhaps you could
have a flyback or bridge PFC preregulator outputting ~50 volts and then
have flyback charger/converters. It would be double isolated, though
flybacks are usually limited to a few hundred watts, and I don't even
know if anyone has ever made a bridge PFC.
*I* would consider PFC necessary on something over 200 watts.
--
---
Martin Klingensmith
nnytech.net
infoarchive.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough wrote:
<snip>
Could you support the two 120VAC legs on two UPS boxes and still combine
the two 120VAC outputs from the two UPSs into the single 240V socket?
The 240V electronics we are using will fry if one of the 120V legs goes
down unexpectedly, so we were looking for some measure of protection and
thought that the 30 seconds of power and the alarm that the UPSs could
provide would give us enough time to shut everything down to protect it.
Short answer is that with most UPSes this will not work. There are some
that can be combined, but most (if not all) of the consumer UPSes will
support being combined. There are however LOTS of 240V UPSes available
so avoid the problem and use one. Most of those CAN be used for 120 and
240V loads.
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it possible that this software will work with NiCad? If so what charger
would I need?????Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
I am not sure but it looks lsimilar to the NLG (Brusa) charger software I
used with their 4xx series units. Maybe it is a later release?
Seth
On Nov 26, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Electro Automotive wrote:
I just stumbled onto this site this morning:
http://www.electric7.com/
It is an AC drive NiMH powered EV project, using NiMH batteries salvaged
from hybrid electric cars. Anyone know anything about this one? Do
those look like Prius batteries?
What I want to know is, have there REALLY been enough hybrids junked
already to be able to salvage batteries?
And what are they using for a charger? Those photos never loaded on my
computer.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
brian baumel wrote:
> The plan is to actually take samplings of the motor shunt every
> second or so. Accumulate that into a variable; let's say X. Take
> samplings until the battery voltage reaches a certian voltage
> such as 70V at wich point the total AH represented by X would be
> my "Fuel" scale. Would that work?
You're on the right track, but there are a couple problems. First, motor
current is not battery current. The controller controls motor speed by
reducing battery voltage and *increasing* current, so motor current is
in general higher than battery current. To measure battery amphours, the
shunt needs to be in series with the battery.
Second, the capacity of lead-acid batteries is affected by the discharge
current (called the Peukert effect). For example, a golf cart battery
will deliver 240ah at a 5a discharge rate, but only 120ah at a 75a rate.
Peukert's equation is:
AH(p) = T x A^e where AH(p) = battery amphour capacity at a 1-amp
discharge rate
T = actual discharge time in hours
A = actual discharge current in amps
e = Peukert exponent; a unique value for each
battery (ranges from 1.1 for a very good
low-resistance AGM, to 1.3 for a high-
resistance inexpensive flooded)
To estimate battery capacity with a shunt,
1. Put the shunt in series with the battery.
2. Have your computer measure the current on a fixed time base
(like, once every second)
3. Use Peukert's equation to convert this number of amp-hours
into the equivalent Peukert amphours.
4. Subtract this number of corrected Peukert amhours from the
battery's Peukert capacity. This is the number of amphours
left if you finished your discharge at the 1-amp rate.
5. Divide the AH left by the total AH to get the percent DOD.
All this will get you close to a percent DOD. But, it does not take into
account temperature (as temperature drops, Peukert capacity goes down
and the Peukert exponent goes up). Nor does it take into account battery
aging, or balance problems between cells. To do this, you have to also
measure voltage and temperature, and apply suitable correction factors.
For example, you can measure the voltage after several hours no-load,
and if it doesn't agree with the %SOC based on amhour calculation,
correct it according to the voltage.
>> Most switchers run fine on DC, so I don't understand what the
>> MOSFET is for.
> after examining the schematic, I noticed a transformer that
> converts the incoming voltage to usable level for a 5V regulator
> that is used by the circuit.
Ok. If your power supply has a 60hz transformer, then I can see why a
60hz chopper would be needed.
> also it looks like some of the circuitry uses the incoming sine
> wave (in this case a square wave) as a clock reference.
Ok. But, other readers should note this is quite unusual for a switching
power supply to do this. I would expect this for a phase-controlled
power supply, but not for the typical high-frequency switcher.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You will need to make sure the UPSs stay synchronized to make 240 volts. If
one of them slips 8 milliseconds, then your 240 volt load between the two
hot legs will have zero volts on it although each 120 load will still see
120 VAC.
I doubt most 120 VAC UPS will have the synchronization capability so you
will need a 240 VAC UPS to get that feature.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:51 PM
Subject: Making 240VAC out of 2 x 120VAC
> I know this has been covered in depth, and I know the risks and dangers
> as previously discussed in depth.
>
> Apparently you can't combine 2 120VAC feeds if there is a GFCI on either
> of them as combining the two feeds will make the GFCI trip. I was
> wondering about using two UPSs on the same project.
>
> Could you support the two 120VAC legs on two UPS boxes and still combine
> the two 120VAC outputs from the two UPSs into the single 240V socket?
> The 240V electronics we are using will fry if one of the 120V legs goes
> down unexpectedly, so we were looking for some measure of protection and
> thought that the 30 seconds of power and the alarm that the UPSs could
> provide would give us enough time to shut everything down to protect
> it.
>
> I was concerned that by combining the output of two 120V UPS outlets,
> I'd essentially have the same issue as the GFCI and would trip a breaker
> or smoke a UPS.
>
> Any input or insight? Thanks in advance.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The bottleneck is the wiring. Look at how many watts you want to deliver to
the batteries. Divide that number by the delivery voltage to see how many
amps you need to make that number of watts. Then look at the wire size
necessary to deliver that power.
If you were to try to deliver 3600 watts at 18 amps, you would need to pass
200 amps around on the low voltage bus. That would require huge wire to be
routed to each battery box to run the converter.
#12 wire is the smallest wire were I think about bend radius as an important
issue. #12 wire is rated to pass 3840 watts at 240 VAC. To pass 200 amps at
18 volts requires #4 wire. Wire size is a big driver toward higher voltages.
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/poster&type=u&title=Commercial/Industrial%20Wiring%20and%20Raceway%20Chart
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Modular Charger
> Ben Apollonio wrote:
>
> > What are the drawbacks to using a large buck converter to produce
> > around 18V, then using smaller, regulated buck converters in parallel
> > on each individual battery? Would that just be overkill? It's sort
> > of like using Rudman regs, only each reg is actually a small switching
> > power supply. But, design is simplified since it's only stepping down
> > from 18V.
> >
> > I suppose one large drawback is that the main unit for a 20A charger
> > would have to produce 20A * # of batteries = lots of amps, but it
> > might make a little more sense than using that many individual power
> > supplies. Then again, I suspect if it were really nothing wrong with
> > it, someone would be doing it already.
> >
> > -Ben
> >
> Another idea would be to use a PFC preregulator and then buck down to
> necessary voltages. The PFC preregulator has a nasty habit of being a
> few hundred volts though. I've never heard of it - but perhaps you could
> have a flyback or bridge PFC preregulator outputting ~50 volts and then
> have flyback charger/converters. It would be double isolated, though
> flybacks are usually limited to a few hundred watts, and I don't even
> know if anyone has ever made a bridge PFC.
> *I* would consider PFC necessary on something over 200 watts.
>
>
>
> --
> ---
> Martin Klingensmith
> nnytech.net
> infoarchive.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To get a good crisp LED illumination will require some gain in the circuit.
That can be provided by either an op amp or transistor.
7 Volts is not much voltage drop budget to run any regulators.
I think you recall Lee's LED string with the resistors in buddy pairs with
LEDs. That circuit made the LEDs come very gradually making it hard to tell
how many were actually lit.
If you want minimal parts count for maximum LED count, use the LM3914.
If you want just a few LEDs, use a TL431 with three resistors for each LED.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:31 PM
Subject: After a simple voltmeter circuit using LEDs
> Hi all,
>
> I vaguely remember seeing a simple voltmeter circuit for measuring small
> voltages made out of just LEDs and resistors.
>
> Can anyone point me to a web site or Hartian ASCII diagram to show how I
> should wire something up to roughly indicate the voltage produced by a
> little hand generator.
> (I can get it to about 7V furiously spinning the handle.)
>
> I have a whole bunch of pretty standard red LEDs - are they about 1.4V
> drop?
>
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having read Solo, I must comment on the statement below. He
got his car to the rocky mountains from California, but
wanted to make it back home in a reasonable amount of time.
Him and the car were inseperable during the novel. He then
decided to buy a Toyota truck to tow it with, and met his
wife in Peoria, Illinois where she flew in. They both made
the trip back to Vermont together. Along the way through his
trip from Cali, he encountered a few EV enthusiasts, a very
close-minded prick in Utah who made the comment that he'd
like to see an electric car towing a gas car some day(I
think Wayland can comment on that one, towing an electric
car with an electric truck and all. lol), an environmental
studies student who raised some excellent questions on EVs
and the pollution they may or may not be responsible
for(Depending on source and energy efficiency of the car),
and then the end of his book had him recounting his
experiences using the car in day to day life. He made the
comment that if he was to be able to shave 1/2 the weight
off his EV, he'd have twice the range(Must be low speed
range then), and that another EV enthusiast he knew had a
vehicle with twice the range of his Escort and have the
weight.
Although it is disappointing that he didn't make the trip
completely by EV, it was an enjoyable read.
It's sad to see him pass on. I guess if there is a heaven(or
hell or whatever), he's with Dick Finley discussing EV
technology and its implications.
>He wrote (among other books)
>"Solo: Life With an Electric Car" in 1992 about a cross
country trip
>that apparently involved little driving and abundant
towing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That body style is awful for range. He could have went for
the more aerodynamic Lotus 11 replicas. Whatever range he
will get with this, he'd get double with the 11 style, as
opposed to the Lotus 7. He'd go from having a Cd * A of
8.5-9 to a Cd * A of 4.5-5.
Nevertheless, both styles are very pleasing to the eye.
Beautiful car...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Carlton replied to my email and I thought I should at least pass along some
of it.
"Yes, they are batteries out of wrecked Prius cars. The 6-cell modules are
paralleled into groups of four to form 7.2V, 26Ah groups. Then, the groups
are wired in series in five separate enclosures to reach 273V nominal. It
is not a lot of energy, but they are high-power batteries and this will be
a light-weight car. It should be a fun combination.
If you do decide to follow the Prius battery route, keep in mind the need
for thermal management with NiMH. Without proper cooling, the batteries
can go into thermal run-away near top-of-charge. A battery management
system is a good idea. Oh, and the battery modules need to be kept in
compression near the top-of-charge."
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
The bottleneck is the wiring. Look at how many watts you want to deliver to
the batteries. Divide that number by the delivery voltage to see how many
amps you need to make that number of watts. Then look at the wire size
necessary to deliver that power.
If you were to try to deliver 3600 watts at 18 amps, you would need to pass
200 amps around on the low voltage bus. That would require huge wire to be
routed to each battery box to run the converter.
Well if you used a traditional boost PFC preregulator you could have an
~400v DC bus. 20 amps would give you 8000 watts, the problem is that the
safety requirements (and the scare factor) of 400VDC wires running all
over would be too much for me (call me a sissy ;-) )
I've seen some pretty 'cool' chips from ON-semi [motorola] that are
fully integrated flyback controls + mosfet, the only extra part required
is the transformer and the output stage. They only put out 10 watts max,
but they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they could be mated with an external
switch to provide more watts and you could charge strings of 2-4
batteries. This is the goal, no?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<>
Another idea would be to use a PFC preregulator and then buck down to
necessary voltages. The PFC preregulator has a nasty habit of being a
few hundred volts though. I've never heard of it - but perhaps you could
have a flyback or bridge PFC preregulator outputting ~50 volts and then
have flyback charger/converters. It would be double isolated, though
flybacks are usually limited to a few hundred watts, and I don't even
know if anyone has ever made a bridge PFC.
*I* would consider PFC necessary on something over 200 watts.
--
---
Martin Klingensmith
nnytech.net
infoarchive.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The NLG charges I used were quite sophisticated and flexible. They
would work better than any charger I am aware of for NiCad and some
were used (NLG412 models on Solectria forces, I think, butsomeone like
Tom Hudson could correct me). THe only potential downsides to the 4XX
series Brusas were that they were quite compact and therefore got hot
at full power to the point to reducing life. So if you can run it at
less than full output power, that would be better. Second, they work in
specified output voltage ranges due to their topology (which I suspect
helps efficiency and power factor), so they aren't 24-400V output. All
that means is that you have to buy the correct charger for your car.
Third, the 4xx series does not do peak detection. Not a problem for
flooded Nicad, but for large strings of starved electrolyte NiMH, it
would be desirable. In all a very good charger. I hear the 5XX series
deals with heat better, I don't know if there are any new features in
the 5xx series.
Seth
On Nov 27, 2004, at 12:54 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is it possible that this software will work with NiCad? If so what
charger would I need?????Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
I am not sure but it looks lsimilar to the NLG (Brusa) charger
software I used with their 4xx series units. Maybe it is a later
release?
Seth
On Nov 26, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Electro Automotive wrote:
I just stumbled onto this site this morning:
http://www.electric7.com/
It is an AC drive NiMH powered EV project, using NiMH batteries
salvaged from hybrid electric cars. Anyone know anything about
this one? Do those look like Prius batteries?
What I want to know is, have there REALLY been enough hybrids junked
already to be able to salvage batteries?
And what are they using for a charger? Those photos never loaded on
my computer.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone
831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since
1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all the recent chat about cheap LED based battery monitors,
Rod's approach of having one cheapo multimeter per battery box and
Chris' battery monitors I wanted to share another alternative:
I found a 12V automotive battery monitor that plugs into the cigarette
lighter of a regular car and shows battery voltage on a digital volt-meter
readout (without needing a separate voltage source like multi-meters),
plus it has a little bar graph showing how full the batteries are and
3 led, showing full, intermedate and empty.
its basically Chris' battery monitor with a voltmeter in one package
although quite a bit bigger so it probably doesn't scale for much
more than maybe 60V (5 meters) and it uses quite a bit of dash space.
I use it on my elec-trak to monitor a pair of 6V batteries and love the
ability to see how much each battery pair sags under load (I have
different capacity batteries, so this is very useful).
Anyhow the meter is called INNOVA Battery & Charing System Monitor by
Equus. I paid $15 at the local walmart. I found them on the web at:
http://www.iequus.com/news/releases/press.asp?dateNews=110403
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> What are the drawbacks to using a large buck converter to produce
> around 18V, then using smaller, regulated buck converters in
> parallel on each individual battery?
The most obvious problem is that a "buck" converter is not isolated. So
you cannot use two of them to charge batteries unless they have a common
ground.
To make this work on a series string of batteries, each converter needs
to have an isolated output. The two usual candidates are the "forward"
converter, and "flyback" converter. In their most basic forms, each
requires 1 transistor, 1 diode, 1 capacitor, 1 transformer, and 1
inductor. The flyback can dispense with the inductor, by combining it
into the transformer.
The other drawback is the one you mentioned; your input buck stage needs
to supply very high current if it is low voltage. That is solvable (a
normal PWM controller for a series motor does it).
Another minor point is that a buck converter is not suitable for power
factor correction. The boost converter is -- which is why they are
normally used as the input stage.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> Another idea would be to use a PFC preregulator and then buck down
> to necessary voltages. The PFC preregulator has a nasty habit of
> being a few hundred volts though.
Right; the output of a boost converter has to be higher than its maximum
input voltage. For 120vac, that's 170vdc for example. Higher yet if you
want to allow for high line.
> I've never heard of it - but perhaps you could have a flyback or
> bridge PFC preregulator outputting ~50 volts and then have flyback
> charger/converters.
The flyback converter has an isolated output, and can do PFC in a single
stage. The design is tricky, though.
> flybacks are usually limited to a few hundred watts
Yes. What happens is that flybacks are inherently noisy, and put high
stress levels on the components. The higher you go, the harder it is to
filter it, and get strong enough parts. Over a few hundred watts,
designers usually save money by using some other topology.
> I don't know if anyone has ever made a bridge PFC.
Oh yes; certainly! High-power PFCs are more likely to use a bridge
topology.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Trillions of dollars and millions of careers are poured into sparking and
lubricating and
cooling, into mixing fuel and air, into lead substitutes, into valves and rings
and rods,
pumps, gaskets and seals, pistons and bearings, clutches, gears and
synchromesh, mufflers
and catalytic converters � a bewildering host of delicate and fiddling devices
of often
fiendish intricacy, plus all the electronics which now go with them. Almost
none of this
is required by the simple electric motor.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1065-1376855,00.html
All this frustration must have a purpose. The �problems� of slow charging times
and
limited range are eliminated with battery swapping. Charging batteries during
the day
with photovoltaics requires no coal and offers optional backup power.
And the transportation of electricity is certainly more efficient and practical
then that
of liquid or gaseous fuels.
Growing biofuels and making them from existing vegetation has hardly been
scratched. And
greater efficiency in all areas has a long way to go.
Add in some giant wind farms and who know what else and things get even better.
Then digest the fact that all of these methods and systems work just fine
together, all
at he same time and things look less bleak.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Prof. Shimizu(inventor of long range high performance battery electric
vehicles) made this statement concerning the direction of pure electric
vehicle manufacture. Lawrence Rhodes......
Interestingly, Shimizu believes that the Japanese motor industry is
deliberately ignoring his invention and instead focusing on complex hybrids,
as a simple electric engine dramatically lowers the cost of manufacturing,
and will lead to a flood of cheap, mass produced cars from Chinese
factories."
More about Prof. Shimizu inventions:
An anonymous reader writes "It ain't cheap, but Hiroshi Shimizu has finally
shown off his latest electric car 'Eliica'.
http://www.eliica.com
It accelerates faster than a Porsche 911 Turbo, and will cruise for 200
miles on a one hour charge.
Stories at
http://www.drive.com.au (below)
and an image video
http://www.eliica.com/movie/image.wmv
and tech video
http://www.eliica.com/movie/tech.wmv
Interestingly, Shimizu believes that the Japanese motor industry is
deliberately ignoring his invention and instead focusing on complex hybrids,
as a simple electric engine dramatically lowers the cost of manufacturing,
and will lead to a flood of cheap, mass produced cars from Chinese
factories."
A UK auto site has a story as well, including a test drive.
From:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?previews/previews_story.php?id=51690
November 2004
Eliica eight-wheeler
It doesn't require plutonium to power its flux capacitor. It won't travel
through time when it reaches 88mph. And unlike the Doc and Marty McFly's
DeLorean of Back To The Future fame, it needs nothing more than a power
point to keep it running.
Called the Eliica - short for Electric Lithium-Ion battery Car - this
radical 800bhp eight-wheeler from Japan is proof that electric vehicles can
be fast and fun to drive, too. Boasting a four-second 0-60mph sprint and
seven-second 0-100mph time, the Eliica is faster than a Porsche 911 Turbo.
So what is it like on the road? In this world exclusive, we took the
controls to find out. As soon as you climb into the snug cockpit, you
realise this car is built for speed. It's more than five metres long, shaped
like a bullet and carries its batteries, software and motors in a narrow
chassis bed, giving it the lowest centre of gravity of any prototype we've
come across.
In tests, the Eliica has recorded a top speed of 370kph (230mph), although
its inventor Hiroshi Shimizu claims it could clear 400kph (250mph) in the
right conditions. "When you're dealing with technology thought by most to be
slow, heavy and lacking range, you must do better than any supercar," he
said.
At our drive at Keio University near Tokyo, we punched the 'D' button on the
dash, pointed the car down the road and flattened the gas pedal. With a
faintly audible whirr of eight 100bhp in-wheel motors, the 0-60mph sprint
was smooth, effortless, quiet - and surreal. The mind-boggling acceleration
was on a par with that of a 500bhp GT racing car. Yet the lack of a
transmission meant there were no jerky cog swaps as we were thrust back in
our seat by an incredible 0.8Gs.
With that ultra-low centre of gravity, the car handles surprisingly well,
and has virtually no body roll or nose-dive. It turns in sharply with well
weighted steering through the front four wheels, and gives adequate
feedback. And it does not feel as big or as heavy as its length and 2,400kg
kerbweight suggest.
The only downsides, apart from the tiny cockpit, are that it takes 10 hours
to recharge, and a production version would cost �170,000. To bring
Shimizu's research back to the future, he needs a major firm's financial
power behind him and the whole electric car movement.
Peter Lyon
From:
http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=8762&vf=4&bg=1&pp=0
This radical eight-wheeled, 600kW rocket from Japan is proof that electric
cars can be fast and fun.
Called Eliica, short for Electric Lithium-Ion battery Car, it boasts a
neck-snapping 0-100kmh time of just four seconds and a 0-160kmh time of
seven seconds, which means the Eliica accelerates faster than a Porsche 911
Turbo.
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Hot Damn�a new way to do battery swapping. A little harder, more restrictive
and more
costly then just robotic battery swapping but great fun to see this happening.
--- RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Gordon Dower's Ridek:
> http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/Ridek.html
> ET exclusive!
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Took some reading in the NYT article:
An ardent environmentalist, he also wrote "Solo: Life With an Electric Car"
(1992), a chronicle of a cross-country trip that turned out to involve very
little driving and abundant towing.
Great book.
-Ed Thorpe
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
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On 27 Nov 2004 at 9:37, Seth Allen wrote:
> They
> would work better than any charger I am aware of for NiCad and some
> were used (NLG412 models on Solectria forces ...
And on the Pivco Citibees in the Alameda station car project. While the
NLG4xx range are very good and flexible chargers (I love 'em), and easily
adaptable to nicad charging, in that service they proved somewhat
troublesome.
The fault probably wasn't in the charger itself, but rather in the Brusa amp-
hour counter and/or its optoisolator interface to the charger (nobody I know of
has yet definitively demonstrated which one is/was at fault). The pilot
counter would lose track of a few amp-hours of discharge in each cycle,
leading to a cumulative undercharge and, after periods of time which
depended on the cars' uses, stranded drivers.
As I understand it, Green Motor Works, the company which maintained the
Pivcos under contract, tried several solutions before resorting to a brute
force
one: defeat the pilot counter and charge solely on voltage threshold.
GMW also changed out several NLG4xx chargers for apparent failures. After
sending a few of them back to Brusa for repair, they discovered that these
were just fuse failures.
David
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I don't know about the PIVCOs, but the Ford Th!nk City had NiCads that
worked very well. I don't know what charger was in the car, but it was
probably European. Saft Nicads.
On Nov 27, 2004, at 10:17 AM, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 27 Nov 2004 at 9:37, Seth Allen wrote:
They
would work better than any charger I am aware of for NiCad and some
were used (NLG412 models on Solectria forces ...
And on the Pivco Citibees in the Alameda station car project. While
the
NLG4xx range are very good and flexible chargers (I love 'em), and
easily
adaptable to nicad charging, in that service they proved somewhat
troublesome.
The fault probably wasn't in the charger itself, but rather in the
Brusa amp-
hour counter and/or its optoisolator interface to the charger (nobody
I know of
has yet definitively demonstrated which one is/was at fault). The
pilot
counter would lose track of a few amp-hours of discharge in each cycle,
leading to a cumulative undercharge and, after periods of time which
depended on the cars' uses, stranded drivers.
As I understand it, Green Motor Works, the company which maintained the
Pivcos under contract, tried several solutions before resorting to a
brute force
one: defeat the pilot counter and charge solely on voltage threshold.
GMW also changed out several NLG4xx chargers for apparent failures.
After
sending a few of them back to Brusa for repair, they discovered that
these
were just fuse failures.
David
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On Nov 26, 2004, at 9:07 AM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
I just stumbled onto this site this morning:
http://www.electric7.com/
Hm. Where'd he get the low rolling resistance self-sealing tires, I
wonder. I can't find any these days.
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GMW also changed out several NLG4xx chargers for apparent failures. After
sending a few of them back to Brusa for repair, they discovered that these
were just fuse failures.
I've seen four of these fail.
One was a bad micro (very odd), One had a bad internal power supply
(fixable) and two had burned up windings on the toroidal power
transformers. (toast)
A couple of those also had bad solder joints on the main capacitor banks.
So there's a few things to watch for on future repairs. Also, if you
have one of these I suggest giving it good cooling to protect the
windings.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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Regardless of the bus voltage, moving 8000 watts around in a car is going
produce a scare factor in someone. I get uneasy when the wiring gets over
140F. This is common with dirty or corroded terminals a high current wiring.
The more common and economical to move 8kW is run is on #12 wire at 400
volts instead of pairs of #4/0 wire (one pair for positive& one pair for
negative) at 20 volts.
You can covert 240 VAC into 400 VDC with a $2000 box that occupies about
half a cubic foot and weighs 22 pounds. Making 400 amps at 20 volts is much
more costly, takes more space and weighs more.
The local converter at the battery will need to be isolated therefore a
transformer is needed. This transformer can be wound to take any input
voltage desired and will not change size significantly as long as the
switching frequency remains the same. There is a slight tradeoff here since
lower voltage devices can run at a higher frequency than higher voltage
devices at similar current levels.
By going to a lower bus voltage, the input converter becomes much larger,
the wiring much becomes larger (harder to manage) and has little effect on
the size (and cost) of the isolated converter on each battery. That is a
huge penalty to pay for a personal scare factor.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: Modular Charger
> Well if you used a traditional boost PFC preregulator you could have an
> ~400v DC bus. 20 amps would give you 8000 watts, the problem is that the
> safety requirements (and the scare factor) of 400VDC wires running all
> over would be too much for me (call me a sissy ;-) )
> I've seen some pretty 'cool' chips from ON-semi [motorola] that are
> fully integrated flyback controls + mosfet, the only extra part required
> is the transformer and the output stage. They only put out 10 watts max,
> but they are pretty cheap. Perhaps they could be mated with an external
> switch to provide more watts and you could charge strings of 2-4
> batteries. This is the goal, no?
---
> Martin Klingensmith
> nnytech.net
> infoarchive.net
>
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Joe Smalley wrote:
Regardless of the bus voltage, moving 8000 watts around in a car is going
produce a scare factor in someone. I get uneasy when the wiring gets over
140F. This is common with dirty or corroded terminals a high current wiring.
The more common and economical to move 8kW is run is on #12 wire at 400
volts instead of pairs of #4/0 wire (one pair for positive& one pair for
negative) at 20 volts.
That's what I recommended.
You can covert 240 VAC into 400 VDC with a $2000 box that occupies about
half a cubic foot and weighs 22 pounds. Making 400 amps at 20 volts is much
more costly, takes more space and weighs more.
$2000? You must be speaking of a PFC-50 or some such?
400 amps at 20 volts could be done, it's practicality and efficiency is
a different matter. To beat a dead horse once again: 400 amps takes a
big wire.
By going to a lower bus voltage, the input converter becomes much larger,
the wiring much becomes larger (harder to manage) and has little effect on
the size (and cost) of the isolated converter on each battery. That is a
huge penalty to pay for a personal scare factor.
To split hairs, running a converter from 20v is much easier than 400v
because you don't need a boot-strapping supply, but that's irrelevant.
The real cost difference is between a 48v MOSFET or a 900v IGBT, but
again it's not enough to justify cables measured in multiple 0-gauge.
--
Martin K
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With very many thanks to Mike Chancey, who kindly placed it there, here is the
location of a picture of the cn250 - based Two Wheel Electric Vehicle
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/568.html (In it's present, - very early, -
state of development, somewhat hastily clapped - togeter to try it out)
The real work starts from here, to lighten it, reduce rolling resistance,
improve CD/(a), - well, you know the sort of stuff
You guys who are my inspiration have been there, done that, I set out to follow
on a smaller scale, with a minor variation
The next landmark aspirational date is June '05, the Electric Brighton run(s)
In the Annual Brighton Run, usually on a chilly Spring(!) morniing, Historic
i.c. vehicles parade from the edge of London to the Coast
On a mid-summer Sunday Morning this year, members of the Battery Vehicle
Society intend to start from locations fitting the differing ranges of EV's
(And hope to make it to Brighton as part of an alternative event)
One can but hope, sweat, dream and
scheme..........................................
All the best, from Jeanie & Ed. Gordon
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Modular Charger
> $2000? You must be speaking of a PFC-50 or some such?
PFC-30s are $2k.
> To split hairs, running a converter from 20v is much easier than 400v
> because you don't need a boot-strapping supply, but that's irrelevant.
Right. An IXYS current regulator provides a single chip bootstrap supply at
a cost of less than $5.
> The real cost difference is between a 48v MOSFET or a 900v IGBT, but
> again it's not enough to justify cables measured in multiple 0-gauge.
And if you want to put 500 watts into the battery with an isolated buck
converter, the IGBT needs to conduct 3 amps at 400 volts or the 48 volt
MOSFET needs to conduct about 33 amps at 20 volts.
I have not recently worked a this power level, so I can't quote part numbers
and prices off the top of my head.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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