EV Digest 3952
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: serious power
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) The Demon Trike, was Re: A89 vs. ETEK
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: zap-wavecrest-electrocharger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: attack on clean-air requirements
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A89 vs. ETEK
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: emergency cutoff using anderson connector.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Rav4 EV Response From Toyota
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Mystery Machine
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Advanced DC vs WarP motors
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent ( HURRA! )
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: serious power
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent ( HURRA! )
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Effeciency of what? Was: ( Accessory effeciency gains! HURRA! )
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent ( HURRA! )
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) any dirt on these people
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: attack on clean-air requirements
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I got to see that in person back in 1984, while in High School. The big
swimming pool is filled with oil. I remember thinking, "If I slipped off
this catwalk and fell in, would I float or sink?" I remember being
impressed at the time of the embedded processor HP used. Something like
16 Intel 8080s, each with 32K of ram!
I wonder if it ever generated more power than it took to run?
- Steven Ciciora
> << Want to see some SERIOUS electrical power?
>
> http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2004/images/jpg/z-machine.jpg
> >>
>
> It looks like the mother of all plasma balls. That Z-machine is definitely
> the
> opposite of "cold" fusion!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Ball wrote:
hi keith
way too big a motor
my trike has stupid performance for a low weight
vehicle - when we tested it last week it wheelied on
the throttle and spat me off
I'll say! I remember the thing flying towards me after you'd
left the saddle
=:-o
That Etek motor has some torque - but an A89 will have
even more at low rpm's, since it's series-wound...
i've just re hashed the frame to lower the centre of
gravity to make it stable
Good, lets hope it is really more stable... ;-)
for your needs you want a hub motor
heinzman do a 2kw 36V kit running on nicads with a
top speed of 13mph in a 20" wheel
that would pull you up everest at 400lbs
crystalite do all sorts of motor kits up to two speed
delta 72v unitstell me what country you live in and i
can point out the people to speak to
i've done a good deal of looking into this lightweight
electric bike lark
regards
reb
I guess I should tell the full tale, as the List seems to have been
a bit short of "tales from the front" for a while....
A couple of weeks ago Richard had posted to the List
about crimps ( I think? ). Anyway, I sent him an email
offering my help with wiring up his beast, since I have a
monster set of crimpers.
As it turned out, we needed the monster crimpers because
he'd got 35 sq mm welding cable to use for the main power
cables - no way are we gonna have any voltage drop in this
baby's wiring, no sir!
After a solid day of making bits, crimping cables and stuff,
the beast was ready.
Richard: "God that thing's ugly - those wires are so huge"
Me: " Yep, but it's only a test rig. Actually it's kind of cool,
in a mad-scientist, "Back-to-the-Future" sort of way.."
Both: "Who cares, let's just ride the thing!"
And so we opended the garage door, and wheeled the
"Frankentrike" out.....
( Richard's garage makes me envious. It's big, well
organised and well lit, even has a heater. Everything
that my garage is not. Still, at least I have a garage... )
Richard got on the thing, only then did the front wheel
touch the ground ( putting the batteries behind the rear
wheel is not good for weight balance ).
I flipped the big 250amp Heinmann breaker to ON.
Richard flipped the toggle switch to turn the controller on,
and twisted the throttle....
...the Beast reared and tried to throw him off, then nose-dived
into the ground as he let off the throttle, and the regen kicked in.
Woah boy, that's some serious regen! This is gonna be fun.
We closed the garage, after I got my camera, and went up the hill
to be next to the canal, where there's a staright level bit of path.
Ok, now we know why vehicles have differentials. With a
solid back axle, and two wheels, you get NO steering. It just
wants to go in a roughly staright line...
I got on the thing and tried it out.
That Magura throttle is a bit sensitive, and the controller's
got WAY too much regen.....yikes this thing is lethal !!!
I got off, discretion beign the better part of valour, and all that
[chicken!]
Richard got on, and turned around with some difficulty.
Then he twisted the throttle, and the thing shot forwards.
However it happened, I don't know. Next thing I knew,
he was in mid-air, the trike was heading towards me, and time
seemed to stand still.....
To be continued...
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup &
demon trike wiring person!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The main business of Kokam is small capacity LiP batteries for RC
planes, cars etc.
in the hobby market. The price per Wh is far higher than for TS LiIons,
but if whole
battery (cell) about D-size cost $20 absolute amount of dollars is small
for the
hobbyist and they treat these batteries more-less like as disposable items.
The volume production for that type is indeed high as hobby people is
willing to
pay $1,700/kW.
They don't see $1,700 number. They see just $20 for their latest
airplane model toy,
which is nothing compared to the rest of the toy's cost.
EV size cells are relatively new addition, so >31Ah cells are indeed in low
production. But the price per Wh still the same.
This is my understanding of the current situation after talking with
Kokam CEO.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different.
Charles Whalen wrote:
...
Hey, speaking of Kokam, I wonder if Victor or Cliff would care to
comment on EaglePicher's acquisition of Kokam, which was just
announced a few days ago. More specifically, I'm wondering if that is
going to have any possible ramifications for bringing down Kokam's
exhorbitant prices -- currently around $1,700/kWh, as I recall from a
previous post. I just had to laugh when I read in EaglePicher's press
release the part about Kokam's innovations in developing high-volume
manufacturing technology. There is certainly a paradox there as
"high-volume manufacturing" implies economies of scale which in turn
implies low prices. So when you compare Kokam's $1,700/kWh price with
Thunder-Sky's $300/kWh price for "volume" purchases, that kind of
seems like a joke.
Thanks,
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Toyota has got to be one of the worst examples I've seen in recent years of
a "greenwashing" company with their shameless, blatant, in-your-face
hypocrisy. They have joined the Detroit automakers in suing the state of
California before over clean air regulations, and now they're doing it
again. In the last few years, Toyota has also been heavily involved in
lobbying Congress not to increase CAFE requirements. It's noteworthy that
Honda has abstained and declined to join Toyota in all of these
anti-environmental assaults on state and federal governments and consumers.
If you want to register your "constructive" criticism with some of the
people at Toyota who really matter and are actually making the decisions,
you might want to try some of these senior-level executives:
Michi Kisaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Akihisa Nishimura [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ryota Isshiki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nobukichi Nakamura [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Earl Quist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ernest Bastien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Adam Bierly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doug Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Paul Daverio [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Greg Glander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ed La Rocque [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Love [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mary Nickerson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Douglas Sato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jonathan Haines [EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Hermance [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Massoud Momeni [EMAIL PROTECTED]
James Rowker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: attack on clean-air requirements
If you would like to email Toyota about this, you can use the form here:
http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
You might make these points:
1. The RAV4-EV and E-Com electric vehicles, if put into production (or
returned to production) would help reduce CO2 emissions. This is
particularly true in regions where electricity is primarily hydropower
and/or
where other renewable energy sources are available.
2. Even with fueled vehicles, CO2 regulation IS NOT fuel efficiency
regulation.
CO2 emissions can be reduced by the use of fuels with a lower carbon
content, such as natural gas.
If anyone has a better link for reaching Toyota's management directly,
please
post it.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got to take the Lectra on the Freeway today. With the 54 to 16 ratio and
standard Lectra wheels and tires I got 53mph. 45 was easy to do and drew
100 or so amps. Going up a slight hill and keeping speed drew 200 amps.
This is at 48v. I think I could go 14 or 15 tooth and still do 45mph. It
pulls hills ok now but at start it's a little slower than the A89 but the
A89 was 12 to 54. After 15 mph it is clear the ETEK is better at 48v. From
25 to 45mph it has good acceleration.LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard ball" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: A89 vs. ETEK
hi jerry
thats useful information
thank you
my bike will be around 300lbs and I weigh 200 lbs
it will be geared for 50mph flat out
i'm only going 5 miles each way to work so i could loose another 50lbs off
the weight in batteries if the thing rides like a slug
i have no gear box it's direct drive
controller is a 4QD 300 with regen
any one out there have any more good advice ?
all the electrics have been tested in my trike test rig which is too fast
for it's stability
jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Richard and All,
--- richard ball wrote:
what vehicle are you using the etek in?
i have one and am building a emotorcycle with it
it's currently in a test rig
It's in a Lectra motorcycle I believe.
While the PM E-tek is a great motorcycle motor,
it's not powerful enough at start-up for anything over
800lbs loaded weight and well geared. More if top
speed is less.
It's limited to about 4,000rpm so you can't gear
it more without lowering your top speed for good
starting power.
Once you get over that weight, the A89 is
superior for starting on hills and can be made to turn
5-6,000 rpm for even more start-up torque thru gearing
or higher top speed.
BTW on motorcycles it's best not to go faster
than 50 mph or your range will be quite short because
of aero drag unless you do a good half or full body
fairing. If you do that ,long range and top speed will
be much better like x2 or x3 for range from lower drag
at a given speed if done right!!!
Though the E-tek at top speed will pull stronger
with more torque.
In heavier EV's like more the 600lbs loaded and
geared for 50 mph top speed, use an E-controller to
limit the E-tek's current or it may die badly like
mine did on my 1,000lb EV.
I'd use it again if building a motorcycle.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
It seems to me with my limited testing is the ETEK
is better at 48v than the
A89. At 72v however the A89 would be a bit peppier
than the ETEK is what I
am guessing. My test is a steep hill going to my
house that I can just pull
at 25 with the A89 geared up the ETEK could pull in
the middle of the hill
from 20mph and accelerate where the A89 would be
stuck with no acceleration.
I am even feeling a bit of difference in the 30
pounds I lost from the
change of motors too. So more power. Very little
modification. More
efficient. I also have the A89 for another project
if I desire. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo!
Messenger
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Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I was at the local forklift supply and they had quite a supply
> of Anderson connectors... the idea is to use an Anderson connector
> with a loop in one end to be pulled on in an emergency.
Andersons are specifically *not* intended as high-current disconnect
devices. Since the contacts slide as they separate, you can very easily
get them to weld. Then it becomes *impossible* to pull them apart!
The other drawback is that the contacts will be pitted and damaged after
an interruption "event" and so would need to be replaced. Most people
wouldn't bother. The damaged contact surface could subsequently cause a
nasty failure.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's take a different tack...
The RAV-4 is nice. But I don't give a rip that it
must be a mini sport-ute. I'd love to have their
batteries and thermal mgt./charging system in my rig.
Imagine that coupled with a Metric Mind/Siemens Motor
&Controller!
I might just have to pull my DC controller and Pb-Acid
floodies at that point!
Sooooo, who works for Toyota and wishes to send me
proprietary schematics, etc? Or is that all in the
owner's manual? (;-p
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I too sent a note to Toyota requesting information
> about how to purchase a
> Rav4 EV. My theory is that the squeaky wheel get the
> grease. I encourage others
> on this list to send a reasonable information
> request to Toyota on the
> subject of your request. Let's provide pressure on
> corporate America in a
> professional manner. Here is my request and their
> response.
>
> >>>
> Recently you contacted Toyota. Below is a summary of
> your contact message
> and our response.
>
>
>
> Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
>
>
> [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]
>
> [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]
>
>
>
(http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/[EMAIL
PROTECTED]&p_next_page=myq_upd.php&p_refno=041209-000041&p_create
> d=1102608536)
> Subject Rav4 EV Discussion Thread Response
> (Michael) 12/09/2004 08:43
> AM Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales,
> U.S.A., Inc.
> We appreciate your interest in the RAV4 Electric
> Vehicle (EV).
> We discontinued sales of the RAV4 EV due to low
> sales levels. As a result,
> no business case could be made for continuing sales
> of the RAV4 EV at these
> volumes. We believe that advances in hybrid
> technology and other advanced
> systems have a much greater potential for the
> environment and Toyota.
> You may wish to review the _RAV4 EV (Electric
> Vehicle) – Retail Program
> Stoppage_
>
(http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=667&p_created=001041949948)
> , _RAV4 EV (Electric Vehicle) – Retail
> Demand_
>
(http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=673&p_created=001041952433)
> and _RAV4 EV (Electric Vehicle) – Toyota’s
> Environmental Commitment_
>
(http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=673&p_created=001041952433)
> Frequently Asked
> Questions (FAQs) for more information.
> Your email has been documented at our National
> Headquarters under file
> #200412090184. If we can be of further assistance,
> please feel free to contact us
> via _email_
>
(http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=164)
> or by calling 800-331-4331. We are available from
> 6 AM to
> 6 PM, Pacific Time, Monday through Friday.
> Toyota Customer Experience Customer (Mike Bachand)
> 12/09/2004 08:08 AM
> Dear Toyota,
> I would very much like to purchase a Toyota Rav4
> Electric Vehicle. You have
> proven that you have the capability to manufacture
> a high quality product
> that meets my need for an EV.
>
> I have a car that I need to replace and have the
> money in the bank to
> complete this purchase in 1 week. Where can I place
> a $1,000 deposit to get this
> vehicle?
>
> Please contact me and tell me how I can complete
> this transaction.
>
> PS: I already own 2 Toyota's.
>
> Mike Bachand
> 2509 E. Wynterbrook Drive
> Highlands Ranch, CO 80126
> 303-791-8880
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try Father Time,
It looks like three Prestolites joined up that I sold him a few years
ago.
Bob Boyd, Hayden Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James D Thompson
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:37 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Mystery Machine
Whose buggy is this?
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/photos//woodburn%202000/slides/12.htm
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/photos//woodburn%202000/slides/13.htm
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Well it appears that I will be able to get the Jeep a new motor for
Christmas. My first thought was to just buy another Advanced DC
FB1-4001A, 9" motor to replace my defective one. However, I'm upset that
I'm having problems with this one.
I have read about NetGain's WarP 9, and heard that this motor might be a
better alternative to the ADC and be a good "upgrade" for the Jeep while
I'm having to spend money on a new motor.
So, I need some opinions... should I stick with Advanced DC or get a
WarP 9? If I go with the WarP, I want to be sure that it will be a
direct replacement for the ADC I have now. I far as I can tell, it seems
it would be? Also, I wonder how dependable they are compared to ADC?
Then once I have a new motor installed and get the Jeep back on the
road, I'll have more time to (hopefully) have fun fixing this defective
ADC motor myself :-)
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
humm, so they managed save 70% on the energy produced by an alternator.
So the alternator is what? 80Amps, 120Amps? about 1 or 2 kW, so they
saved less than 1 kW! Yippie! in a car with a 200HP (150kW engine) ICE.
WOW, that should boost fuel economy by what? a half percent!
Nevermind moving from 30% ICE up to 80% effecient electric powertrains.
L8r
Ryan
Lee Dekker wrote:
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/12/prototype81204.asp?trk=nl
New software from Siemens VDO Automotive in Schwalbach am Taunus, Germany,
could boost
cars’ fuel efficiency by regulating their electricity usage.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the link I have been looking for this one for a few years!! This
is actually rather old.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron NMLUG-EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:25 AM
Subject: serious power
> Want to see some SERIOUS electrical power?
>
>
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2004/images/jpg/z-machine.jpg
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick stay with the AVDC, it's a good motor, and I am sure we can find the
issues. don't throw anything way, until all us Evlister say so.
Also the Warp 9 an the AvDC9 are so very close to each others designs the
there is very little difference in them. Stay with what ya Got.
Lets find the problem... Not just buy a new one. Until we KNOW what
happened.
Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope you got
it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test, After you look
as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
First we gotta find the problem... since it should be rather cheap compared
to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:27 PM
Subject: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
> Hi,
>
> Well it appears that I will be able to get the Jeep a new motor for
> Christmas. My first thought was to just buy another Advanced DC
> FB1-4001A, 9" motor to replace my defective one. However, I'm upset that
> I'm having problems with this one.
>
> I have read about NetGain's WarP 9, and heard that this motor might be a
> better alternative to the ADC and be a good "upgrade" for the Jeep while
> I'm having to spend money on a new motor.
>
> So, I need some opinions... should I stick with Advanced DC or get a
> WarP 9? If I go with the WarP, I want to be sure that it will be a
> direct replacement for the ADC I have now. I far as I can tell, it seems
> it would be? Also, I wonder how dependable they are compared to ADC?
>
> Then once I have a new motor installed and get the Jeep back on the
> road, I'll have more time to (hopefully) have fun fixing this defective
> ADC motor myself :-)
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:31:00 -0800, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Nevermind moving from 30% ICE up to 80% effecient electric powertrains.
You have to look at the total efficiency starting from fuel. If you take
electricity conversion with 40 % and charging/battery with 70 % into
account than you end up around 25 % for an electric vehicle. This is
äquivalent to the overall efficiency of an ICE car.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emil Naepflein wrote:
Nevermind moving from 30% ICE up to 80% effecient electric powertrains.
You have to look at the total efficiency starting from fuel. If you take
electricity conversion with 40 % and charging/battery with 70 % into
account than you end up around 25 % for an electric vehicle. This is
äquivalent to the overall efficiency of an ICE car.
So how effecient was the horse, do you consider the caloric intake per
mile? How about the energy input to farm the crop that it eats? What
about the solar energy that reached the crop and the percentage stored?
I like to use the effeciency of the energy input versus the work output
when considering the effeciency of a vehicle. Lumping in the energy
consumed to produce the electricity would also demand that the energy
and effeciency of all the processes involved with the production of
gas prior to it becoming a product you pay for and pump into your tank.
This is why maglev is better then diesel hybrid and steam locomotives.
The vehicle is more effecient, not to mention the fact that even when
you do consider all energy costs electric is the only renewable option.
L8r
Ryan
ps. You know it really makes me sad that all our new GM Hybrid Transit
busses don't have highwire hookups so they can be even more effecient.
It wouldn't have added but a fraction of a percentage to the total cost.
A more innovative solution would have been grid recharging at bus stops.
Why is "reduction" so hot but cheap or novel "elimination" methods not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting, the 70% figure is the same number I got from the guys
selling the BECS system controller for electric vehicles. Did anyone
here test one of their scooter controllers yet that stores the
back-emf back into the batteries?
brad
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:31:00 -0800, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> humm, so they managed save 70% on the energy produced by an alternator.
--
Brad - voice mail: 703-935-7647
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Emil and All,
--- Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:31:00 -0800, Lightning Ryan
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Nevermind moving from 30% ICE up to 80% effecient
> electric powertrains.
Ryan's being generous for the ICE!!! They get 30%
just at wide open throttle to the engine output shaft.
Part load eff kills it badly and that doesn't include
many other losses.
By reducing the part load losses is how hybrids do
so well.
>
> You have to look at the total efficiency starting
> from fuel. If you take
> electricity conversion with 40 % and
> charging/battery with 70 % into
Batt charging should be a lot higher like 85-95%
from the wall plug with lead and ni-cads, lower than
lead for NiMH, Li-ions by 5-20%.
> account than you end up around 25 % for an electric
> vehicle. This is
> äquivalent to the overall efficiency of an ICE car.
Not even close. If you want to measure from the
base fuel, ICE cars are about 6-9% eff and electrics
are about 20% eff and hybrids about 10-15% eff.
If the power comes from wind, hydro, EV's eff would
be about 75-80%.
Lowering the accessory power needs would only
increase the eff 1% or so in most cars.
But unless the alt is replaced with a more eff
unit, alts in cars are 60-75% eff, and reduce through
more eff accessories even 1% isn't possible.
I lower my accessory power by eliminating
accessories, cutting headlight power, LED taillights,
eff fans, ect.
My purpose built EV's eff can be seen in it's
100wt-hr/mile energy use. This costs about $.01/mile
for electricity and I can't even tell the difference
on my very low electric bill of $25-40/ month dispite
almost all my driving is in EV's. My bill is that high
because I heat, cool with electricity. Cooling being
the big dog as I live in Fla. Though tonight I'll have
to fire up the heater for the second time this fall.
So how much does your car cost to fill up? My EV is
about $.10 to $.30 usually. Now compare the 2 on fuel
mileage costs. What do you get? Which is more eff?
On my next EV, power required should be about 60-75
wt-hrs/mile.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Emil
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 04:54:36 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ryan's being generous for the ICE!!! They get 30%
> just at wide open throttle to the engine output shaft.
This may be true for gas guzzlers but not for modern diesels.´
> Batt charging should be a lot higher like 85-95%
> from the wall plug with lead and ni-cads, lower than
> lead for NiMH, Li-ions by 5-20%.
You will be very happy if the charger achieves 90 % efficiency from the
wall plug to the battery terminals.
And lead-acid batteries which are currently the main storage is also in
the range around 90 % if everything runs fine. You can read more about
this here:
http://www.sandia.gov/pv/docs/PDF/batpapsteve.pdf
http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm
http://www.mhpower.com.au/Batteries/BATSIZE.HTM
http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/PbA%20for%20EVs.pdf
> Not even close. If you want to measure from the
> base fuel, ICE cars are about 6-9% eff and electrics
> are about 20% eff and hybrids about 10-15% eff.
This is totally wrong otherwise it wouldn't possible to drive a small
SMART diesel car with 3.3 l/100km (78 mpg). Do the numbers for rolling
resistance and air drag and you will see what I mean. A comparable
two-seater electric car (Hotzenblitz) used at the german energy save
challenge about 16 kWh/100 km.
http://www.solarmobil.net/download/SM54-DSM.pdf
The document is in german, but you see the numbers.
> If the power comes from wind, hydro, EV's eff would
> be about 75-80%.
As most of the electric energy is currently coming from fossil fuels
this is not relevant. BTW, the CO2 equivalence of the emissions is about
689 gCO2/kWh here in germany. If you calculate the CO2 emissions for the
16 kWh/100km you get 110 gCO2/km for the electric car and the published
numbers for the SMART are 90-95 gCO2/km.
> My purpose built EV's eff can be seen in it's
> 100wt-hr/mile energy use.
This is about 6.3 kWh/100km and is simliar to the cityEl above.
Most EVs have a low energy use because they are build light, have
limited performance and driven very energy efficient.
> So how much does your car cost to fill up? My EV is
> about $.10 to $.30 usually. Now compare the 2 on fuel
> mileage costs. What do you get? Which is more eff?
> On my next EV, power required should be about 60-75
> wt-hrs/mile.
The costs are not the point, we talked about end-to-end efficiency.
And if you look at the cost then the situation is even more dramatic. Or
do you see any electric car at the market that can compete to a
comparable ICE car?
If you are lucky and find a car then you have to pay a premium. What you
save on fuel costs you have to invest into the battery, battery charger,
motor.
Even with cheap lead-acid batteries you have life-time costs of more
than 20 ct/kWh. Take an Optima with about 600 Wh energy content. They
may do 300 cycles for a total of about 180 kWh. This battery costs about
120 $ for a total cost of more than 60 ct/kWh. Is this really cheap?
Cheers,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
> Nick stay with the AVDC, it's a good motor, and I am sure we can find the
> issues. don't throw anything way, until all us Evlister say so.
another idea , as I'm sure you want to get going on this , is to get another
avdc 9 motor and switch out the part till you find whats wrong , then have
what ever is broken fixed and you'll have a motor ready for your next ev.
The problem with cars is you need them all the time , if my work truck borke
, I would have to have it fixed in a few days , I;d be taking parts off
somthing! , .
> Also the Warp 9 an the AvDC9 are so very close to each others designs the
> there is very little difference in them.
Stay with what ya Got.
> Lets find the problem... Not just buy a new one. Until we KNOW what
> happened.
>
is the timing right , its not advanced the wrong way. ?
> Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope you
got
> it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test, After you
look
> as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
> First we gotta find the problem... since it should be rather cheap
compared
> to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:27 PM
> Subject: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Well it appears that I will be able to get the Jeep a new motor for
> > Christmas. My first thought was to just buy another Advanced DC
> > FB1-4001A, 9" motor to replace my defective one. However, I'm upset that
> > I'm having problems with this one.
> >
> > I have read about NetGain's WarP 9, and heard that this motor might be a
> > better alternative to the ADC and be a good "upgrade" for the Jeep while
> > I'm having to spend money on a new motor.
> >
> > So, I need some opinions... should I stick with Advanced DC or get a
> > WarP 9? If I go with the WarP, I want to be sure that it will be a
> > direct replacement for the ADC I have now. I far as I can tell, it seems
> > it would be? Also, I wonder how dependable they are compared to ADC?
> >
> > Then once I have a new motor installed and get the Jeep back on the
> > road, I'll have more time to (hopefully) have fun fixing this defective
> > ADC motor myself :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041210/to028a_1.html
Keep seeing press on this Co. but no products, no prototypes, nothing real.
Am I just missing it or are these dudes all hype?
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> Hi Nick , the warp motors are 1/2 longer and this is becuse there is
> 1/2 inch more brush , which should be a better motor.
Well, that just made up my mind. Unfortunately, I won't be able to use
the WarP without moving my torque bar mounts backwards for the longer
motor. This isn't something I really wanted to mess with... See, I
thought they were the WarP and ADC were the same case size. Thanks for
the offer anyways, Steve.
> Your adc motor was new when you got it ? did you brake it in ?
Yes. Brand new when I started the Jeep conversion in July 2003. I'm not
sure what you mean by "brake it in". I was gentle with the motor during
all the initial test drives I did. My big problem is I can't tell now if
the motor was messed up from day one or if this is a recent development,
because my controller acted pretty different before and I after I got it
fixed (so there was a noticeable performance difference after fixing the
controller). However, my gut feeling is that the motor has had whatever
problem it has from the beginning. The Jeep has always been sluggish and
has always had to be started in 1st gear.
> another idea , as I'm sure you want to get going on this , is to get
> another avdc 9 motor and switch out the part till you find whats wrong
> then have what ever is broken fixed and you'll have a motor ready for
> your next ev.
That was my exact plan at this point.
> is the timing right , its not advanced the wrong way. ?
Yes. Last weekend I had removed all the bolts on the end bell and
rotated it by hand to see what timing it was in and whether my motor has
the three sets of bolt holes drilled. It does. The motor was in the far
most counter-clockwise set of holes (looking at the tail shaft end).
Since the motor spins clockwise when viewing from the tail shaft end, I
understand this bolt position as being fully advanced.
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-10 at 23:34, Steve Clunn wrote:
> Hi Nick , the warp motors are 1/2 longer and this is becuse there is
> 1/2 inch more brush , which should be a better motor. I'm a net gain
> dealer , well www.grassrootsev.com is , check around and find the
> lowest price , and I'll see if we can beat it . Your adc motor was
> new when you got it ? did you brake it in ?
On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 09:21, Steve Clunn wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
>
>
> > Nick stay with the AVDC, it's a good motor, and I am sure we can find the
> > issues. don't throw anything way, until all us Evlister say so.
>
> another idea , as I'm sure you want to get going on this , is to get another
> avdc 9 motor and switch out the part till you find whats wrong , then have
> what ever is broken fixed and you'll have a motor ready for your next ev.
> The problem with cars is you need them all the time , if my work truck borke
> , I would have to have it fixed in a few days , I;d be taking parts off
> somthing! , .
>
> > Also the Warp 9 an the AvDC9 are so very close to each others designs the
> > there is very little difference in them.
>
>
> Stay with what ya Got.
> > Lets find the problem... Not just buy a new one. Until we KNOW what
> > happened.
> >
> is the timing right , its not advanced the wrong way. ?
>
>
> > Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope you
> got
> > it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test, After you
> look
> > as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
> > First we gotta find the problem... since it should be rather cheap
> compared
> > to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
>
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:27 PM
> > Subject: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Well it appears that I will be able to get the Jeep a new motor for
> > > Christmas. My first thought was to just buy another Advanced DC
> > > FB1-4001A, 9" motor to replace my defective one. However, I'm upset that
> > > I'm having problems with this one.
> > >
> > > I have read about NetGain's WarP 9, and heard that this motor might be a
> > > better alternative to the ADC and be a good "upgrade" for the Jeep while
> > > I'm having to spend money on a new motor.
> > >
> > > So, I need some opinions... should I stick with Advanced DC or get a
> > > WarP 9? If I go with the WarP, I want to be sure that it will be a
> > > direct replacement for the ADC I have now. I far as I can tell, it seems
> > > it would be? Also, I wonder how dependable they are compared to ADC?
> > >
> > > Then once I have a new motor installed and get the Jeep back on the
> > > road, I'll have more time to (hopefully) have fun fixing this defective
> > > ADC motor myself :-)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Nick
> > > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> Nick stay with the AVDC, it's a good motor, and I am sure we can find the
> issues. don't throw anything way, until all us Evlister say so.
I'm don't usually throw reusable things away (this would be apparent if
you saw all the crap I have in my garage :-)
> Stay with what ya Got. Lets find the problem... Not just buy a new one.
> Until we KNOW what happened.
I absolutely DO want to find out what is wrong with this motor. However,
I really really don't want this Jeep sitting for any length of time
while I'm playing with the motor. My gas Jeep Wrangler (currently my
daily driver) needs attention badly. But I can't take it apart to
diagnose/fix it and then have the Cherokee all torn apart too. This is
why I want to fix the Cherokee now.
> Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope
> you got it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test,
> After you look as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
I can get you more shots of the wiring, but I believe it is all correct
(and has been from the start). And I'd probably have to remove the motor
(or the battery racks) from the Jeep to do the inspections you
mentioned, as the batteries completely cover the motor from the top, and
the underside is fairly obstructed by the front axle and steering
linkages. And it is not terribly fun to remove the motor in this
vehicle... so when I do remove it, It would very easy to go ahead and
install a new motor while all the battery racks, controller, dc/dc, etc
are removed. Instead of having to remove and reinstall all this stuff
multiple times.
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 00:53, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Nick stay with the AVDC, it's a good motor, and I am sure we can find the
> issues. don't throw anything way, until all us Evlister say so.
> Also the Warp 9 an the AvDC9 are so very close to each others designs the
> there is very little difference in them. Stay with what ya Got.
> Lets find the problem... Not just buy a new one. Until we KNOW what
> happened.
>
> Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope you got
> it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test, After you look
> as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
> First we gotta find the problem... since it should be rather cheap compared
> to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 5:27 PM
> Subject: Advanced DC vs WarP motors
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Well it appears that I will be able to get the Jeep a new motor for
> > Christmas. My first thought was to just buy another Advanced DC
> > FB1-4001A, 9" motor to replace my defective one. However, I'm upset that
> > I'm having problems with this one.
> >
> > I have read about NetGain's WarP 9, and heard that this motor might be a
> > better alternative to the ADC and be a good "upgrade" for the Jeep while
> > I'm having to spend money on a new motor.
> >
> > So, I need some opinions... should I stick with Advanced DC or get a
> > WarP 9? If I go with the WarP, I want to be sure that it will be a
> > direct replacement for the ADC I have now. I far as I can tell, it seems
> > it would be? Also, I wonder how dependable they are compared to ADC?
> >
> > Then once I have a new motor installed and get the Jeep back on the
> > road, I'll have more time to (hopefully) have fun fixing this defective
> > ADC motor myself :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may be true, but Toyota is still the only car company in the world that
has managed to get it right with the American hybrid market. The Prius is
hot, and let's face it, practically an EV. If there is truly a market for
EV's as so many on this list insist, than I would bet that the first real
step in that direction will be an aftermarket kit to upgrade the Prius to a
grid chargeable hybrid. Develop one of these and try selling it for a
couple thousand dollars, and then you will have a feel for how much
American's really want to be able to plug in.
As far as I'm concerned the Prius is better for the environment than any EV
ever made becasuse people will actually buy and use it. There is no way
that American's would have bought Rav4 EV's in the numbers that they are
buying the Prius even if Toyota had made them as widely available.
damon
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: attack on clean-air requirements
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:59:28 -0500
Toyota has got to be one of the worst examples I've seen in recent years of
a "greenwashing" company with their shameless, blatant, in-your-face
hypocrisy. They have joined the Detroit automakers in suing the state of
California before over clean air regulations, and now they're doing it
again. In the last few years, Toyota has also been heavily involved in
lobbying Congress not to increase CAFE requirements. It's noteworthy that
Honda has abstained and declined to join Toyota in all of these
anti-environmental assaults on state and federal governments and consumers.
If you want to register your "constructive" criticism with some of the
people at Toyota who really matter and are actually making the decisions,
you might want to try some of these senior-level executives:
Michi Kisaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Akihisa Nishimura [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ryota Isshiki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nobukichi Nakamura [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Earl Quist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ernest Bastien [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Adam Bierly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doug Coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Paul Daverio [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Greg Glander [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ed La Rocque [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael Love [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mary Nickerson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Douglas Sato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jonathan Haines [EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Hermance [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Massoud Momeni [EMAIL PROTECTED]
James Rowker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: attack on clean-air requirements
If you would like to email Toyota about this, you can use the form here:
http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php
You might make these points:
1. The RAV4-EV and E-Com electric vehicles, if put into production (or
returned to production) would help reduce CO2 emissions. This is
particularly true in regions where electricity is primarily hydropower
and/or
where other renewable energy sources are available.
2. Even with fueled vehicles, CO2 regulation IS NOT fuel efficiency
regulation.
CO2 emissions can be reduced by the use of fuels with a lower carbon
content, such as natural gas.
If anyone has a better link for reaching Toyota's management directly,
please
post it.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
