EV Digest 3953
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: emergency cutoff using anderson connector.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sprint for conversion
by Gordon G Schaeffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Panasonic EV1260 batteries--where can I get some?
by "Olaf Bleck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The Demon Trike, was Re: A89 vs. ETEK
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: any dirt on these people?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: any dirt on these people?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: I love my Bill Dube crimper
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Fwd: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I see. This is why I have only seen them on Pocket bikes at 24v. LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: emergency cutoff using anderson connector.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I was at the local forklift supply and they had quite a supply
of Anderson connectors... the idea is to use an Anderson connector
with a loop in one end to be pulled on in an emergency.
Andersons are specifically *not* intended as high-current disconnect
devices. Since the contacts slide as they separate, you can very easily
get them to weld. Then it becomes *impossible* to pull them apart!
The other drawback is that the contacts will be pitted and damaged after
an interruption "event" and so would need to be replaced. Most people
wouldn't bother. The damaged contact surface could subsequently cause a
nasty failure.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emil wrote:
You have to look at the total efficiency starting from fuel. If you take
electricity conversion with 40 % and charging/battery with 70 % into
account than you end up around 25 % for an electric vehicle. This is
�quivalent to the overall efficiency of an ICE car.
Well, decide where you want to start! I see 2 logical places:
1. direct vehicle energy use - from an outlet for an EV or fueling
station for an ICE
2. source to wheels
For an EV there are many sources of electricity. You would need an
average mix of source and plant efficiency to get a number. Locally,
my number is over 80% hydro (WA state requires electric utilities to
publish the fuel mix annually). The US fuel mix for electricity
production is about 50% coal (US Statistical Abstract). Looking at
the coal part of the electricity equation this method requires
starting at a mine and counting all the energy used to get coal to a
power plant and then to the outlet. Then repeat for other sources.
After you have an efficiency for the delivery of power you then have
to include the vehicle efficiency to develop the source efficiency of
a BEV. Be sure to use actual power plant efficiencies (these vary
greatly by age of design). With so many public and private utilities,
of varying capacities, this will be hard in the USA.
For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system.
Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in
transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by
distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop
the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
It would be unfair to compare the efficiency of an ICE at the gas
pump to the efficiency of an EV at the power plant. Crude oil is not
gasoline or diesel and my EV is fueled by PbO2, Pb, and H2SO4.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My neighbor here in Castro Valley CA (San Francisco Bay Area) has a two
door1988 Chevy Sprint ( the model just before it became a GEO) that runs
but has carburetor trouble. It has a 5 speed manual transmission and
looks like a good prospect for electric conversion. Contact David Crabe
at 510-427-3052. It needs to find a home by next week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Emil and All,
--- Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 04:54:36 -0800 (PST), jerry
> dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Ryan's being generous for the ICE!!! They get
> 30%
> > just at wide open throttle to the engine output
> shaft.
>
> This may be true for gas guzzlers but not for modern
> diesels.�
In the US, modern diesels are 300hp V8's.
I was talking about US cars but it still holds
true in Europe but with a smaller margin.
In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo,
your eff is going to be less than 15%. If you use
stop-start on them brings them up another couple of
points.
This just cuts part load losses, no new stuff here.
And how much more does a Lupo cost over it's
cheaper gas version?
>
> > Batt charging should be a lot higher like
> 85-95%
> > from the wall plug with lead and ni-cads, lower
> than
> > lead for NiMH, Li-ions by 5-20%.
>
> You will be very happy if the charger achieves 90 %
> efficiency from the
> wall plug to the battery terminals.
I'm happy!! ;-) It's not that hard or expensive.
Been there, done that. Some are 98% eff but more
bucks.
>
> And lead-acid batteries which are currently the main
> storage is also in
> the range around 90 % if everything runs fine. You
I'd bet people on this list know more about real
life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
knows. We have much more experience.
If you have good charging control, lead batts can
get 95% eff for most of their life, more when very
old, 800+ cycles.
Others like li-ion or NiMH are worse. I use lead.
> can read more about
> this here:
> http://www.sandia.gov/pv/docs/PDF/batpapsteve.pdf
> http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm
> http://www.mhpower.com.au/Batteries/BATSIZE.HTM
>
http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/PbA%20for%20EVs.pdf
>
> > Not even close. If you want to measure from the
> > base fuel, ICE cars are about 6-9% eff and
> electrics
> > are about 20% eff and hybrids about 10-15% eff.
>
> This is totally wrong otherwise it wouldn't possible
> to drive a small
> SMART diesel car with 3.3 l/100km (78 mpg). Do the
Why? Here few would drive such a slow, rough ride
car though I would if they would sell them here. I'd
get one to run on Waste veg oil, WVO, and/or
biodiesel.
My EV is no where near opimized. If I had 1/100 of
the money VW used on devveloping the Lupo, I'd be able
to do much better and put them into production.
An EV can be both fast and eff!!! If an ICE is
going to be eff, it will be really slow like a semi
truck!!
> numbers for rolling
> resistance and air drag and you will see what I
> mean. A comparable
Even better, the numbers of wt-hrs you put in the
batts. Very accurate over time and includes all drag.
Theory, lab is nice, but real world rocks when it
comes to data that counts.
> two-seater electric car (Hotzenblitz) used at the
> german energy save
> challenge about 16 kWh/100 km.
That's sad!!!! We have very fast Karman Ghia EV
conversions that do 100wt-hrs/mile. They can't beat
that?
My EV built from scratch only cost $1,000 to build
and run for 2 yrs and easily beats that. And I didn't
even get to high school. Though I was a TV E-tech at
15.
>
> http://www.solarmobil.net/download/SM54-DSM.pdf
>
> The document is in german, but you see the numbers.
I don't do PDF's yet.
>
> > If the power comes from wind, hydro, EV's eff
> would
> > be about 75-80%.
>
> As most of the electric energy is currently coming
> from fossil fuels
> this is not relevant. BTW, the CO2 equivalence of
Many EV'ers here use renewable electricity, mostly
wind, either making their own or buying it. And 1/3
about is non-fossil fuels like hydro, nuke and only 1%
from oil.
> the emissions is about
> 689 gCO2/kWh here in germany. If you calculate the
> CO2 emissions for the
> 16 kWh/100km you get 110 gCO2/km for the electric
> car and the published
> numbers for the SMART are 90-95 gCO2/km.
Buying RE, hydro, nuke or make your own, the net
CO2 is Zero. Beat that.
But I don't care about CO2, it doesn't cause global
warming. I care about other pollutions that matter,
kill.
Much worse is ice crystals from jet exhausts and
water vapor, clouds, 20+ times more important than
CO2. But for some reason no one mentions them.
But really is most likely natural temp swings that
happen always. Not to long ago we were worried about
another ice age because the weather turned cold
earlier last century. We are just heating back up from
that dip in temp.
And what caused Greenland to be green 1,000 yrs ago
during that heating trend? They never talk about that
either. They always say it's the warmest in 1,000 yrs
without saying it was hotter then.
>
> > My purpose built EV's eff can be seen in it's
> > 100wt-hr/mile energy use.
>
> This is about 6.3 kWh/100km and is simliar to the
> cityEl above.
Mine's a fair size larger, about the same weight
but faster top speed, acceleration.
>
> Most EVs have a low energy use because they are
> build light, have
> limited performance and driven very energy
> efficient.
Your's over there maybe, like mine, but most here
are heavy. But EV's can have great performance with
little decrease in eff.
They are small, low performance in Europe to keep
initial costs down more than higher eff, like I did
with mine too.
>
> > So how much does your car cost to fill up? My
> EV is
> > about $.10 to $.30 usually. Now compare the 2 on
> fuel
> > mileage costs. What do you get? Which is more eff?
> > On my next EV, power required should be about
> 60-75
> > wt-hrs/mile.
>
> The costs are not the point, we talked about
> end-to-end efficiency.
Yeah, right!
Costs are one of the best indicators of eff as
they can't be fudged as easily and include everything.
And costs do matter.
Do the math on 100wt-hrs/mile and see what the
gasoline, diesel equivilent is. You can use before
taxes diesel costs too!
Basicly a US gal of diesel will make 10kw-hr of
electricity or 16 shaft hp-hr at wide open throttle.
Add your diesel taxes and it's even worse.
1/2 of the genorators around here in Tampa get 60%
eff as combined turbine-steam. Our night time when
charging is nuke.
>
> And if you look at the cost then the situation is
> even more dramatic. Or
> do you see any electric car at the market that can
> compete to a
> comparable ICE car?
There were but they crushed or shipped them. The
EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would easily with 100-160 mile
range and 80mph.
>
> If you are lucky and find a car then you have to pay
> a premium. What you
> save on fuel costs you have to invest into the
> battery, battery charger,
> motor.
There are some great deals on used EV's in Europe.
You can do that right or wrong. My complete E
drive, charging including new batts was $600.
I've priced out a new one including batts at about
$1700, Euro-1,300 for a production car like mine.
About the same as an ICE's drives costs. Probably less
in mass production as it's simpler.
>
> Even with cheap lead-acid batteries you have
> life-time costs of more
> than 20 ct/kWh.
More like $.03/mile for my EV with $.01/mile
electric costs and another $.02/mile cost for every
thing else makes it $.06/mile total costs, can you
beat that?
And don't forget repairs. Nothing in my EV takes
more than 15 mintues to replace. Can you do that with
an ICE?
These ICE repair costs about equal to the costs of
replacing my batts every 5-7 yrs.
And I have more room than a Smart.
>Take an Optima with about 600 Wh
> energy content. They
> may do 300 cycles for a total of about 180 kWh. This
> battery costs about
> 120 $ for a total cost of more than 60 ct/kWh. Is
> this really cheap?
That's it, pick the worst lead batt possible for
range, costs and use it's list price which few pay,
cut it's cycles to 1/2 what ones with good charging
do.
I use batts, Trojan T105's that cost 1/2 the
Optima, about 1,000 cycles life, have 2 times the cap
and need only 8 of them.
And yes, that's really cheap. And comparing it to
the cost of diesel, a real bargin. No?
If you think EV's are costly losers, why are you on
this list?
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Cheers,
> Emil
>
>
__________________________________
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The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system.
Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in
transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by
distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop
the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
Or do you start at the mountain where the ore is mined and crushed and then
transported
to the place where it is turned into the metals that are used to make the
various
machinery needed to drill the oil well in the first place? Gobs of energy used
just to
get ready to drill that well and gobs more used to make it productive, assuming
it�s not
a dry hole. And then, in some parts of the world more then others, someone
needs to spend
a ton more energy protecting this oil well from sabotage.
Probably left out a few energy consuming steps here. Hard to really see all the
energy we
use.
--- Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Emil wrote:
> >You have to look at the total efficiency starting from fuel. If you take
> >electricity conversion with 40 % and charging/battery with 70 % into
> >account than you end up around 25 % for an electric vehicle. This is
> >�quivalent to the overall efficiency of an ICE car.
>
> Well, decide where you want to start! I see 2 logical places:
>
> 1. direct vehicle energy use - from an outlet for an EV or fueling
> station for an ICE
> 2. source to wheels
>
> For an EV there are many sources of electricity. You would need an
> average mix of source and plant efficiency to get a number. Locally,
> my number is over 80% hydro (WA state requires electric utilities to
> publish the fuel mix annually). The US fuel mix for electricity
> production is about 50% coal (US Statistical Abstract). Looking at
> the coal part of the electricity equation this method requires
> starting at a mine and counting all the energy used to get coal to a
> power plant and then to the outlet. Then repeat for other sources.
> After you have an efficiency for the delivery of power you then have
> to include the vehicle efficiency to develop the source efficiency of
> a BEV. Be sure to use actual power plant efficiencies (these vary
> greatly by age of design). With so many public and private utilities,
> of varying capacities, this will be hard in the USA.
>
> For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system.
> Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in
> transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by
> distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop
> the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
>
> It would be unfair to compare the efficiency of an ICE at the gas
> pump to the efficiency of an EV at the power plant. Crude oil is not
> gasoline or diesel and my EV is fueled by PbO2, Pb, and H2SO4.
>
> Neon
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm looking for some of the Panasonic EV1260's. Is there a "regular"
source for these? What seems to be the going price?
Actually, I need an 8V version of the same battery (replacing the Delphi
modules that were made for the Ford Ranger), but the 12V module will do.
If anyone has some leads, please let me know.
Thanks!
-Olaf
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sure would be nice to see some of the pictures...since
you cant do attachments to the list as a whole just
send them to me.
thanks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Richard Ball wrote:
>
> >hi keith
> >way too big a motor
> >my trike has stupid performance for a low weight
> >vehicle - when we tested it last week it wheelied
> on
> >the throttle and spat me off
> >
> >
> I'll say! I remember the thing flying towards me
> after you'd
> left the saddle
> =:-o
>
> That Etek motor has some torque - but an A89 will
> have
> even more at low rpm's, since it's series-wound...
>
> >i've just re hashed the frame to lower the centre
> of
> >gravity to make it stable
> >
> >
> Good, lets hope it is really more stable... ;-)
>
> >for your needs you want a hub motor
> >heinzman do a 2kw 36V kit running on nicads with a
> >top speed of 13mph in a 20" wheel
> >that would pull you up everest at 400lbs
> >crystalite do all sorts of motor kits up to two
> speed
> >delta 72v unitstell me what country you live in and
> i
> >can point out the people to speak to
> >i've done a good deal of looking into this
> lightweight
> >electric bike lark
> >regards
> >reb
> >
>
> I guess I should tell the full tale, as the List
> seems to have been
> a bit short of "tales from the front" for a
> while....
>
>
> A couple of weeks ago Richard had posted to the List
> about crimps ( I think? ). Anyway, I sent him an
> email
> offering my help with wiring up his beast, since I
> have a
> monster set of crimpers.
>
> As it turned out, we needed the monster crimpers
> because
> he'd got 35 sq mm welding cable to use for the main
> power
> cables - no way are we gonna have any voltage drop
> in this
> baby's wiring, no sir!
>
> After a solid day of making bits, crimping cables
> and stuff,
> the beast was ready.
>
> Richard: "God that thing's ugly - those wires are so
> huge"
>
> Me: " Yep, but it's only a test rig. Actually it's
> kind of cool,
> in a mad-scientist, "Back-to-the-Future"
> sort of way.."
>
> Both: "Who cares, let's just ride the thing!"
>
> And so we opended the garage door, and wheeled the
> "Frankentrike" out.....
>
> ( Richard's garage makes me envious. It's big, well
> organised and well lit, even has a heater.
> Everything
> that my garage is not. Still, at least I have a
> garage... )
>
> Richard got on the thing, only then did the front
> wheel
> touch the ground ( putting the batteries behind the
> rear
> wheel is not good for weight balance ).
> I flipped the big 250amp Heinmann breaker to ON.
> Richard flipped the toggle switch to turn the
> controller on,
> and twisted the throttle....
>
> ...the Beast reared and tried to throw him off, then
> nose-dived
> into the ground as he let off the throttle, and the
> regen kicked in.
> Woah boy, that's some serious regen! This is gonna
> be fun.
>
> We closed the garage, after I got my camera, and
> went up the hill
> to be next to the canal, where there's a staright
> level bit of path.
>
> Ok, now we know why vehicles have differentials.
> With a
> solid back axle, and two wheels, you get NO
> steering. It just
> wants to go in a roughly staright line...
>
> I got on the thing and tried it out.
> That Magura throttle is a bit sensitive, and the
> controller's
> got WAY too much regen.....yikes this thing is
> lethal !!!
> I got off, discretion beign the better part of
> valour, and all that
> [chicken!]
>
> Richard got on, and turned around with some
> difficulty.
> Then he twisted the throttle, and the thing shot
> forwards.
> However it happened, I don't know. Next thing I
> knew,
> he was in mid-air, the trike was heading towards me,
> and time
> seemed to stand still.....
>
> To be continued...
>
> Richard Bebbington
> electric Mini pickup &
> demon trike wiring person!
>
>
__________________________________
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Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes, brush leads, and
commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections between the A1/A2
lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an Ohm meter today. I
got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems to be no continuity
problems there.
Overall I didn't see anything that looked wrong to me. But I did manage
to squeeze my camera up in there and take some pics so you all can see
too.
They are here: http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/
My intent was to remove the end bell if I could, but I couldn't get it
to separate more than an inch or so from the main casing. There was
really too much stuff in the way to get a good grip on the motor end...
So does everything look alright? Also, there are pictures of one of the
three hole sets which adjust the timing. I noticed once I looked at the
photos on the computer that the threaded hole (the ones being used right
now), is closer to the center hole than the far hole is. Interesting.
Also, to answer the wiring question:
A1 is connected to Motor+ on the controller
A2 is connected to S2
S1 is connected to Battery- on the controller (which connects through
the shunt to the negative contactor)
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--------------------------------
Rich said:
> > Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring, as Joe said, I hope you got
> > it wired right...then we need the free spin on 12 volts test, After you look
> > as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and commutator.
> > First we gotta find the problem... since it should be rather cheap compared
> > to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041210/to028a_1.html
Keep seeing press on this Co. but no products, no prototypes, nothing real.
Am I just missing it or are these dudes all hype? >>
Hype. You'll notice all their press releases say "emerging leaders in the
development and marketing of Lithium-powered products worldwide", but nothing
is being sold -- amazing how some people (e.g.- Chaz Haba) always figure out
how to take other people's money as easily as possible.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you follow links to the actual site you will find a electric Scooter for
$5995.00 with following description:
Products
Select Company:
Global Electric | Solium Power | R-Electric Car
Global Electric CorporationE-Cobra
The E-Cobra features a unique Lithium Power System that makes it a sustainable
zero emission two-wheel vehicle. This sleek, exceptional performance, electric
motorcycle is ideal for both the rental market as well as for personal
transportation in urban areas.
Speed: Up to 60 mph
Range: Up to 120 miles
Power: 2 kilowatts motor
Battery: 28 volts / 56 amps
Charge Time: 3+ hours
Weight: 185 lbs
Now Available at our Online Store
<<http://whistlerinvestments.secure-shops5.com/view_category.asp?cat=31>>
Now I am not saying that you can put your money down and get it. But they are
claiming it on the website. I would definitely look them up on the Better
Business before ordering.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<< http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041210/to028a_1.html
Keep seeing press on this Co. but no products, no prototypes, nothing real.
Am I just missing it or are these dudes all hype? >>
Hype. You'll notice all their press releases say "emerging leaders in the
development and marketing of Lithium-powered products worldwide", but nothing
is being sold -- amazing how some people (e.g.- Chaz Haba) always figure out
how to take other people's money as easily as possible.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes, brush leads, and
commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections between the A1/A2
lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an Ohm meter today. I
got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems to be no continuity
problems there.
Overall I didn't see anything that looked wrong to me. But I did manage
to squeeze my camera up in there and take some pics so you all can see
too.
They are here: http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/
Hi Nick,
It all looks normal to me.
I wonder if you might have a short in the field winding reducing the
field strength? If you run it unloaded on 12V (jumper cables work
well for that) it would be interesting to know the rpm and current
draw.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick
as you suspect, these numbers are spun to meet their
purpose.
Unlike what others have commented, Hyundai doesn't
ignore the energy needed to make H2(the footnote notes
this), but it does take an optimistic look at it.
The main problem with this analysis is that while this
is a 'well to wheels' comparison, they use two
different 'wells'. The fuel cell path starts with
natural gas. The BEV path starts with (presumably)
coal or the fuel mix for the US generation mix.
they probably also underestimate the 'tank to wheels'
efficiency of a BEV.
but other than that, these numbers don't look far from
correct.
~fortunat
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership the
> other day.
>
> While I was there, I asked about the Well-to-wheel
> efficiency of BEVs vs FCEVs.
> In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai
> showing A FCEV above BEVs in
> terms of efficiency.
>
> Is this correct? I always thought it was the other
> way around.
>
> I scanned the hand out, and made it available here:
>
http://smartaustin.com.nyud.net:8090/~nick/hyundai_fcv_facts.jpeg
>
> Can somebody take a look this and see if you can
> find the flaw in there logic
> (or mine) :)
>
> Thanks!
> > * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from
> message *
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, December 6, 2004, at 04:09 PM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
The Bill Dube crimper is working good.
http://www.evsource.com/conversion/good_crimp.jpg
Bill's site has pretty good info. on making one.
I must have missed it on his site. Can anyone provide a URL?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick,
I haven't followed this thread closely enough to
make a real intelligent reply, however I can tell
you about my Dodge TEVan that weighs 5,000 lbs.
It has a two speed manual transmission (high and low
gear). I also have a 9" sepex GE motor that is oil
cooled and probably the same size as your ADC.
Sepex gives me better speed range in my two gears than
a series motor. It also has better cooling with the
oil cooled center shaft rotor. I also have two
blowers pushing air through the brush end (lots of
cooling air that is independent of motor speed).
My van is a 'slug', not the best acceleration and is
not the best performer on hills. It will go 70 MPH
and has a range of 60 miles, but I have NiCd
batteries, 180 Ahr and a no load charged voltage of
approximately 204V. Under load it doesn't drop much
below 170V charged and 150Vdc fully discharged pulling
a long hill. I should also mention the control has a
battery current limit and motor current limit of
300Amps, although battery current draw is rarely above
200amps.
You can do the power calculations and see how your
vehicle compares, I think they are close in weight.
My van has 'adequate' performance, no speed demon but
it doesn't get me into too much trouble in traffic.
Rod.
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes,
> brush leads, and
> commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections
> between the A1/A2
> lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an
> Ohm meter today. I
> got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems
> to be no continuity
> problems there.
>
> Overall I didn't see anything that looked wrong to
> me. But I did manage
> to squeeze my camera up in there and take some pics
> so you all can see
> too.
>
> They are here: http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/
>
> My intent was to remove the end bell if I could, but
> I couldn't get it
> to separate more than an inch or so from the main
> casing. There was
> really too much stuff in the way to get a good grip
> on the motor end...
>
> So does everything look alright? Also, there are
> pictures of one of the
> three hole sets which adjust the timing. I noticed
> once I looked at the
> photos on the computer that the threaded hole (the
> ones being used right
> now), is closer to the center hole than the far hole
> is. Interesting.
>
> Also, to answer the wiring question:
> A1 is connected to Motor+ on the controller
> A2 is connected to S2
> S1 is connected to Battery- on the controller (which
> connects through
> the shunt to the negative contactor)
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> --------------------------------
> Rich said:
> > > Got Digi camera??? send us shots of the wiring,
> as Joe said, I hope you got
> > > it wired right...then we need the free spin on
> 12 volts test, After you look
> > > as ALL The brushes and brush leads, and
> commutator.
> > > First we gotta find the problem... since it
> should be rather cheap compared
> > > to the $1600 for a new complete motor.
> > >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Subject: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
>
> Overall I didn't see anything that looked wrong to me. But I did manage
> to squeeze my camera up in there and take some pics so you all can see
> too.
>
> They are here: http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/
>
Nick
Very nice shots. Just a question about the position of things. When you took
the pictures did you
have anything loose that would allow the commutator to move in relation to the
brushes? From the
different shots it looks like the wear pattern on the commutator is shifted in
relation to the
brushes. When you look at the clean section on the bar between the brush
contact areas, it just
doesn't seem to line up with the gap between the brushes. Maybe it's just the
angle, but what I'm
wondering is if there is some significant endplay on the motor that is causing
a problem. Or is
this just because you had loosened the end bell?
Just my newbie 2 cents worth,
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> When you look at the clean section on the bar between the brush
> contact areas, it just doesn't seem to line up with the gap between
> the brushes.
This is because I had the end bell separated from the main casing by
about 1.5" so I could rotate the end bell (w/ the brushes) freely, to
allow better inspection of everything in there.
And I too was surprised how nicely the photos came out. I guess HP's
"Macro Mode" feature really does work :-)
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 20:29, Dave Cover wrote:
> --- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Subject: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
> >
> > Overall I didn't see anything that looked wrong to me. But I did manage
> > to squeeze my camera up in there and take some pics so you all can see
> > too.
> >
> > They are here: http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/
> >
> Nick
> Very nice shots. Just a question about the position of things. When you took
> the pictures did you
> have anything loose that would allow the commutator to move in relation to
> the brushes? From the
> different shots it looks like the wear pattern on the commutator is shifted
> in relation to the
> brushes. When you look at the clean section on the bar between the brush
> contact areas, it just
> doesn't seem to line up with the gap between the brushes. Maybe it's just the
> angle, but what I'm
> wondering is if there is some significant endplay on the motor that is
> causing a problem. Or is
> this just because you had loosened the end bell?
>
> Just my newbie 2 cents worth,
>
> Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks, I am forwarding this message for Stephen, as he is having
subscription problems. (He can read, but not post).
******************************
Hello, I have been quietly monitoring the list for the last few months. I
am designing a high performance electric car at the University of
Washington. Major construction will begin in weeks and so we must decide on
our final components ASAP.
For batteries we were initially thinking large scale lithium ion
batteries would be the best. AC Propulsion's Tzero electric car gets
incredible performance using over 6,000 laptop batteries linked together.
We want something that is easy to change in and out so large scale
batteries seem to make more sense. I suppose a well designed pack or a few
packs might be okay too. Currently we have been negotiating with Valence a
company out of Texas who makes standard size Lithium Ion batteries using a
phosphate based cathode for better safety. Anyway, looking into the matter
further it appears that NiCads and NiMH batteries last longer than Lithium
based batteries (both shelf life and charge cycles)? I believe NiCads, at
least, are also cheaper?
One thought we've had is to make a sort of hybrid-battery system. Use
two different types of batteries. One type for acceleration and
another type for longer range and simply cruising. So what if we used a
pack of Li-Ion batteries for acceleration and then NiMH or NiCads for
cruising? What do you think of this? Also would it be possible for the
long-range/cruising pack to also help charge the acceleration pack? The
idea being that this coupled with regenerative braking could help keep the
depth of discharge of the acceleration pack in the low percentages thereby
extending the life of the Li-Ions for example and making them closer to
that of the Nickel based Batteries.
What do you think of all this? Do you have any other ideas or advice?
What about using Ultracapacitors instead for the acceleration?
Also, where are good places to purchase NiCads or NiMH... and what about
Zinc Air batteries? So far they look like they have good energy properties
but the ones I've found require mechanical charging (i.e. taking cells out
of the pack and then putting new ones in while the old ones are
reconditioned in a special device.)
Thank you, please take a look at our website:
http://students.washington.edu/toro66
Regards,
Stephen Johnsen
DISCLAIMER: I am the industrial design student on the team my specific
knowledge of batteries and electrical components is not as good as some of
our other team members but I think creatively and try and come up with what
makes sense. We are designing a car for commuting--but we want it to out
accelerate most any other car on the road as well as get a range of at
least 100 miles and look good while doing it. This will help it appeal to
the masses and make the average person or even the hell bent horsepower
nuts (like I used to be) say, "Hmmmm." Any and all information will be
greatly appreciated. Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
(Jeff, this is in response to your e-mail. I changed the subject to
match the rest so I can keep all the e-mails about my motor in a single
thread)
> btw, there are four brushes, perhaps only one set is still connected
> or worse 1 set shorted to other this can really cause low power high
> amp
Okay, I redrew the schematic for my motor, which is drawn on the ADC
technical spec sheet I have (though it was hard to read). So the
schematic looks like this (in case anyone needs it):
http://www.driveev.com/temp/motor/adc_wiring.png
Now, after looking at this and the inside of the motor, I thought that
all of the brushes are electrically connected to each other by the
commutator. Is this right? Or are the brushes connected to A1 supposed
to be isolated from those connected to A2 somehow? Putting an ohm meter
across A1 and A2 on my motor shows continuity.
> Have you rotated the motor (disconnected) with an ohmmeter accross the
> leads
Not yet... When I reattach the end bell I'll try this.
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 18:17, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Have you rotated the motor (disconnected) with an ohmmeter accross the leads
>
> if all the brushes are good and the commbars are connected the
> resistance shouldn't change much.
>
> btw, there are four brushes, perhaps only one set is still connected or
> worse 1 set shorted to other this can really cause low power high amp
> I have a netgain motor on the floor in my garage and can run mu
> ohm-meter accross it for comparison
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo,
> your eff is going to be less than 15%. If you use
> stop-start on them brings them up another couple of
> points.
That's simply wrong. If you take a
> This just cuts part load losses, no new stuff here.
> And how much more does a Lupo cost over it's
> cheaper gas version?
> >
> > > Batt charging should be a lot higher like
> > 85-95%
> > > from the wall plug with lead and ni-cads, lower
> > than
> > > lead for NiMH, Li-ions by 5-20%.
> >
> > You will be very happy if the charger achieves 90 %
> > efficiency from the
> > wall plug to the battery terminals.
>
> I'm happy!! ;-) It's not that hard or expensive.
> Been there, done that. Some are 98% eff but more
> bucks.
>
> >
> > And lead-acid batteries which are currently the main
> > storage is also in
> > the range around 90 % if everything runs fine. You
>
> I'd bet people on this list know more about real
> life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
> knows. We have much more experience.
> If you have good charging control, lead batts can
> get 95% eff for most of their life, more when very
> old, 800+ cycles.
> Others like li-ion or NiMH are worse. I use lead.
>
> > can read more about
> > this here:
> > http://www.sandia.gov/pv/docs/PDF/batpapsteve.pdf
> > http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm
> > http://www.mhpower.com.au/Batteries/BATSIZE.HTM
> >
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/PbA%20for%20EVs.pdf
> >
> > > Not even close. If you want to measure from the
> > > base fuel, ICE cars are about 6-9% eff and
> > electrics
> > > are about 20% eff and hybrids about 10-15% eff.
> >
> > This is totally wrong otherwise it wouldn't possible
> > to drive a small
> > SMART diesel car with 3.3 l/100km (78 mpg). Do the
>
> Why? Here few would drive such a slow, rough ride
> car though I would if they would sell them here. I'd
> get one to run on Waste veg oil, WVO, and/or
> biodiesel.
> My EV is no where near opimized. If I had 1/100 of
> the money VW used on devveloping the Lupo, I'd be able
> to do much better and put them into production.
> An EV can be both fast and eff!!! If an ICE is
> going to be eff, it will be really slow like a semi
> truck!!
>
> > numbers for rolling
> > resistance and air drag and you will see what I
> > mean. A comparable
>
> Even better, the numbers of wt-hrs you put in the
> batts. Very accurate over time and includes all drag.
> Theory, lab is nice, but real world rocks when it
> comes to data that counts.
>
> > two-seater electric car (Hotzenblitz) used at the
> > german energy save
> > challenge about 16 kWh/100 km.
>
> That's sad!!!! We have very fast Karman Ghia EV
> conversions that do 100wt-hrs/mile. They can't beat
> that?
> My EV built from scratch only cost $1,000 to build
> and run for 2 yrs and easily beats that. And I didn't
> even get to high school. Though I was a TV E-tech at
> 15.
>
> >
> > http://www.solarmobil.net/download/SM54-DSM.pdf
> >
> > The document is in german, but you see the numbers.
>
> I don't do PDF's yet.
>
> >
> > > If the power comes from wind, hydro, EV's eff
> > would
> > > be about 75-80%.
> >
> > As most of the electric energy is currently coming
> > from fossil fuels
> > this is not relevant. BTW, the CO2 equivalence of
>
> Many EV'ers here use renewable electricity, mostly
> wind, either making their own or buying it. And 1/3
> about is non-fossil fuels like hydro, nuke and only 1%
> from oil.
>
>
> > the emissions is about
> > 689 gCO2/kWh here in germany. If you calculate the
> > CO2 emissions for the
> > 16 kWh/100km you get 110 gCO2/km for the electric
> > car and the published
> > numbers for the SMART are 90-95 gCO2/km.
>
> Buying RE, hydro, nuke or make your own, the net
> CO2 is Zero. Beat that.
> But I don't care about CO2, it doesn't cause global
> warming. I care about other pollutions that matter,
> kill.
> Much worse is ice crystals from jet exhausts and
> water vapor, clouds, 20+ times more important than
> CO2. But for some reason no one mentions them.
> But really is most likely natural temp swings that
> happen always. Not to long ago we were worried about
> another ice age because the weather turned cold
> earlier last century. We are just heating back up from
> that dip in temp.
> And what caused Greenland to be green 1,000 yrs ago
> during that heating trend? They never talk about that
> either. They always say it's the warmest in 1,000 yrs
> without saying it was hotter then.
> >
> > > My purpose built EV's eff can be seen in it's
> > > 100wt-hr/mile energy use.
> >
> > This is about 6.3 kWh/100km and is simliar to the
> > cityEl above.
>
> Mine's a fair size larger, about the same weight
> but faster top speed, acceleration.
>
> >
> > Most EVs have a low energy use because they are
> > build light, have
> > limited performance and driven very energy
> > efficient.
>
> Your's over there maybe, like mine, but most here
> are heavy. But EV's can have great performance with
> little decrease in eff.
> They are small, low performance in Europe to keep
> initial costs down more than higher eff, like I did
> with mine too.
>
>
> >
> > > So how much does your car cost to fill up? My
> > EV is
> > > about $.10 to $.30 usually. Now compare the 2 on
> > fuel
> > > mileage costs. What do you get? Which is more eff?
> > > On my next EV, power required should be about
> > 60-75
> > > wt-hrs/mile.
> >
> > The costs are not the point, we talked about
> > end-to-end efficiency.
>
> Yeah, right!
> Costs are one of the best indicators of eff as
> they can't be fudged as easily and include everything.
> And costs do matter.
> Do the math on 100wt-hrs/mile and see what the
> gasoline, diesel equivilent is. You can use before
> taxes diesel costs too!
> Basicly a US gal of diesel will make 10kw-hr of
> electricity or 16 shaft hp-hr at wide open throttle.
> Add your diesel taxes and it's even worse.
> 1/2 of the genorators around here in Tampa get 60%
> eff as combined turbine-steam. Our night time when
> charging is nuke.
> >
> > And if you look at the cost then the situation is
> > even more dramatic. Or
> > do you see any electric car at the market that can
> > compete to a
> > comparable ICE car?
>
> There were but they crushed or shipped them. The
> EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would easily with 100-160 mile
> range and 80mph.
>
> >
> > If you are lucky and find a car then you have to pay
> > a premium. What you
> > save on fuel costs you have to invest into the
> > battery, battery charger,
> > motor.
> There are some great deals on used EV's in Europe.
> You can do that right or wrong. My complete E
> drive, charging including new batts was $600.
> I've priced out a new one including batts at about
> $1700, Euro-1,300 for a production car like mine.
> About the same as an ICE's drives costs. Probably less
> in mass production as it's simpler.
>
> >
> > Even with cheap lead-acid batteries you have
> > life-time costs of more
> > than 20 ct/kWh.
>
> More like $.03/mile for my EV with $.01/mile
> electric costs and another $.02/mile cost for every
> thing else makes it $.06/mile total costs, can you
> beat that?
> And don't forget repairs. Nothing in my EV takes
> more than 15 mintues to replace. Can you do that with
> an ICE?
> These ICE repair costs about equal to the costs of
> replacing my batts every 5-7 yrs.
> And I have more room than a Smart.
>
> >Take an Optima with about 600 Wh
> > energy content. They
> > may do 300 cycles for a total of about 180 kWh. This
> > battery costs about
> > 120 $ for a total cost of more than 60 ct/kWh. Is
> > this really cheap?
>
> That's it, pick the worst lead batt possible for
> range, costs and use it's list price which few pay,
> cut it's cycles to 1/2 what ones with good charging
> do.
> I use batts, Trojan T105's that cost 1/2 the
> Optima, about 1,000 cycles life, have 2 times the cap
> and need only 8 of them.
> And yes, that's really cheap. And comparing it to
> the cost of diesel, a real bargin. No?
> If you think EV's are costly losers, why are you on
> this list?
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Emil
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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