EV Digest 3954
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: attack on clean-air requirements
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Bill Dube crimper URL
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) The 200sx is alive!!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Military Lithium and Hub Motors.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Charging with an Avcon
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: just looking for opinions
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Real or Memorex?, was: re: any dirt on these people?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) One more thought, re: any dirt on these people?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Esarati now a dead issue?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A grid charger and filling the extra "battery bay" will be great
for the Prius. As for the Rav4 EV and other production EV's, I
didn't hear a thing about them till they were going, going, gone.
Similar to the beginnings of the Hybrids, which were for sale!
If nothing else the whole "Hybrid" phenomenon makes it clear that all
those production BEV's should have been universally grid chargable
series hybrids to start with. Uhaul could have rented long haul pushers.
I may have crossed the country to pick up an EV and a genset for a
30mpg trip back home where I would then rairly use gassoline again.
Even now only three manufacturers make only 5 types of weak hybrids.
None of this "Electric Hybrid Escape, Prius or Insight" nonesense.
I quote "The Ford Escape, _Runs on_ Electric Power alone (at certain
speeds (added later))". As if they intend for you to think that
any "electric vehicle" stuff you may have heard of in the past is
now at work for you in the Escape. Not realizing that compaired
to even the tamest of EV's, Hybrids aren't as powerfull and can't
"Run on" whichever fuel you choose. Be it coal, oil, ng, neuclear,
hydro, wind, geo, solar, exercise bikes, voodoo direct photo synthesis.
btw. Hydrogen isn't really a new raw "fuel". ie. oil -> gassoline.
So, we're in or will be having energy problems someday, and they are
fighting over how best to package the oil, coal, or natural gasses?
Essetially they are fighting California to ensure that the power
structure intact at this moment stays intact. Cars are a major chunk
of American Consumerism, individules capable of choosing where the
fuel that powers their lives comes from are bound to mess with things.
L8r
Ryan
ps. So why is Honda staying out if it? I guess they are now selling
3 out of the 5 Hybrids on the market. I might even call them the
company I wish our domestic guys were more like. Superb crash test
facitilities, into all sorts of clean "power equiptment", robotics!
Ironic that their Hybrids are the weakest of all. I doubt that even
they would be eager to jump into the new electric "Power" paradigm.
Although they would be perfectly suited to the task. Considering their
body of engineering work. I'de start out with a super-offroad CRV, a
Minivan, and an all aluminum (4 seat Insight/CRX Coope/Wagon thing)
damon henry wrote:
This may be true, but Toyota is still the only car company in the world
that has managed to get it right with the American hybrid market. The
Prius is hot, and let's face it, practically an EV. If there is truly a
market for EV's as so many on this list insist, than I would bet that
the first real step in that direction will be an aftermarket kit to
upgrade the Prius to a grid chargeable hybrid. Develop one of these and
try selling it for a couple thousand dollars, and then you will have a
feel for how much American's really want to be able to plug in.
As far as I'm concerned the Prius is better for the environment than any
EV ever made becasuse people will actually buy and use it. There is no
way that American's would have bought Rav4 EV's in the numbers that they
are buying the Prius even if Toyota had made them as widely available.
damon
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--- Begin Message ---
This part is even more interesting... If someone isn't interested
in keeping the discussion limited to just the vehicle, or the well
to the wheels, then I think it's only fair to point out that...
... Better to teach a someone to capture their own renewable energy
... than give the them a gallon of gassoline to get down the road.
... After all, They will just be back to pester you for more anyway.
or perhaps that's what "They" want?
The best possible route is to invest in sources of power that are
long term and renewable. There may be more energy input required
versus the instintanious energy output for a hydro-electric dam
or wind farms or other solar collectors than an field of oil wells
or a coal mine. However for the safety, stability, freedom, and
long term energy needs of society renewable is the only way to go.
Imagine that every manufacturing facility had to, Knowing what we
know today about various sources, install it's own renewable power.
It would surely increase the installation cost of the facility,
but is entirely within our capital and capabilities. It would
eliminate subsequent power costs for all manufacturing. Zero
power cost for producing say, vehicles or batteries or toys.
Even if you aren't producing products you are always producing
energy that is bound to be consumed by someone else on the grid.
You eventually end up with a world that not only doesn't need,
but doesn't have any desire to take part in dirty risky and
unnecessary acts like minning or drilling for fossil fuels.
Economic strength has always followed the energy supply so by
investing in long lasting renewable energy sources, providing
more available energy you grow the economy. As it is now we
are running severly in the red in multiple areas.
In the end fossil fuels are just stored up solar energy, it's
obvious we should learn to better use our "solar manna" daily
and directly. Rather than withdrawling from a bank that we
can never make deposits to even if we could close our accounts.
L8r
Ryan
Lee Dekker wrote:
For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system.
Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in
transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by
distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop
the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
Or do you start at the mountain where the ore is mined and crushed and then transported
to the place where it is turned into the metals that are used to make the various
machinery needed to drill the oil well in the first place? Gobs of energy used just to
get ready to drill that well and gobs more used to make it productive, assuming it’s not
a dry hole. And then, in some parts of the world more then others, someone needs to spend
a ton more energy protecting this oil well from sabotage.
Probably left out a few energy consuming steps here. Hard to really see all the energy we
use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and everyone else,
The Bill Dube crimper instructions can be found here:
http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm
Plan on some more detailed pictures of the construction process on my
crimper in the next three or four years :) or sooner hopefully. If you
need any specifics, let me know. I just finished all my crimping
today. I'm so glad I had the crimper.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes, brush leads, and
commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections between the A1/A2
lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an Ohm meter today. I
got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems to be no continuity
problems there. >>
Don't you need something called a megger for continuity checks?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone,
After a year of planning, preparing, stealing homework time, and
freezing my rear off, I took the 200sx Electric Conversion out for a
spin! I'm not a ball-baby, but a few tears of joy were spilt. Wow!
Driving an electric is so amazingly cool! It was pretty darn zippy! I
was trying to be gentle with things, but the stylus just went crazy
dialing in 1000amps on the Palm pilot. That Zilla delivers! I can't
imagine what a Z2K would be like.
After the excitement of driving it around and taking neighbors for rides
(I live in an apartment complex and all my neighbors have kept tabs on
the conversion), the reality of battery management hit. Poor Rich is
stuck with all my PFC specific questions.
I'm just soaking it all up. There are lots of things to still be done,
but IT DRIVES!!
Thanks so much to *everyone* on this list for all the help, advice, and
guidance. There is no way in the world this would have happened if it
weren't for all the knowledge and encouragement this list has given me.
I hope I can give back some of what I've received.
Thanks again!
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
>You eventually end up with a world that not only doesn't need, but doesn't
>have any desire to take part in dirty risky and unnecessary acts like
>minning or drilling for fossil fuels.
I don't think we'd get rid of mining and drilling altogether, because
petroleum is used in so many other things besides being burned as fuel.
What we would accomplish, it seems, is to reduce the mining and drilling to
the level of retrieving only enough oil for those other manufacturing
processes, thus vastly the number of years that the existing oil is
available.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Caught this on the Prius list...
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Shadow,,00.html
The Shadow's diesel generator is a Detroit turbocharged, intercooled
2.5-liter DI-4V inline 4 engine that drives the Shadow with 138 Hp -- as
much as your typical Honda Accord or Mazda Miata. Not very impressive
until you realize that the Shadow is about 3 times the size of a normal
sedan. On top of that, the Shadow uses a series of magnets for
propulsion, driven by the main diesel motor. An 110kW Magnet Motor
drives four 50kW Magnet Motors mounted on the each of the Shadow's four
hubs, which are powered by two SAFT Li-Ion battery packs with a total
rated output of 20kW hours and a peak power output of 80kW. The
batteries augment the diesel generator for "burst" energy requirements,
and are recharged during low demand operations. They can even recuperate
energy when breaking.
It's not a Humvee, which they have had
a hybrid version of for a few years now.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hybrid+humvee
Jan5 1998 - http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html
10 MPH faster top end of 80 mph, 0-50 is 7 seconds twice as fast,
climbes 60% grades at 17 mph, 2.5 times better, double the fuel
economy at 18mpg. Really it was quite a machine.
L8r
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
I got the PFC in and charging, I was pushing 32
amps into my battery pack at work yesterday. Sweet.
The charging station talks, when you connect the plug
it tells you the time and says charging started. When
you hit the stop button it says charge ended, the
time, how long the charger was charging and then it
tells you the KWH, the problem is the charger is
giving me a number like 10,070KWH. Is it supposed to
tell you the power consumed during the charge, or is
this a cumulative # ow watts the charger has put out?
Is there some way to reset this number?
One more question about this, I sent off my
application to the DMV (California) for a public
charging station sticker, can I get ticketed for
charging at a public station before I get the sticker?
TiM
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Dec 2004 at 13:01, brian baumel wrote:
> hi all, a friend of mine is considering buying a
> citicar.
> what should we offer...if its in working condition? or
> if the batteries arent working....
In fair running condition, I'd say maybe $2000. A little more with new
batteries. About $500 less with worthless batteries. If it needs major
mechanical work, offer still less.
> also, can these things be made highway legal?
They are already. They're not NEVs; they were licensed as regular cars in
every state, as far as I know. However, if you took one on the freeway,
you'd most likely be stopped by an officer for driving too far under the
speed limit.
> could we get it up 55-60mph?
Yes, with some drivetrain mods, but you wouldn't want to drive it at that
speed. You'd be literally taking your life in your hands. C-cars are
unstable even at their designed top speed of ~40 mph. To make it safe at
highway speeds, you'd need a huge investment of time and effort to improve
the suspension and braking. Even then the car would be marginal.
C-cars are good introductions to EV use. If your transportation needs
support a car with a 30 mile range and driving at 30 mph or so on mostly
level roads, they can be very useful (if not very comfortable). But they
should not be considered highway vehicles.
I owned one for a few years. When I got tired of driving round Robin Hood's
barn to avoid getting on the freeway, I briefly considered upgrading it.
After looking into what it would take, and realizing what I'd have when I
was done, I sold it and bought a converted Honda Civic.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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I believe in an America where the separation of church and state
is absolute ... where no minister would tell his parishoners for
whom to vote, where no church or church school is granted any
public funds or political preference ... where no religious body
seeks to impose its will ... upon the general populace or the public
acts of its officials.
-- President John F Kennedy
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--- Begin Message ---
<< Global Electric | Solium Power | R-Electric Car
Global Electric CorporationE-Cobra
The E-Cobra features a unique Lithium Power System that makes it a sustainable
zero emission two-wheel vehicle. This sleek, exceptional performance, electric
motorcycle is ideal for both the rental market as well as for personal
transportation in urban areas.
Speed: Up to 60 mph
Range: Up to 120 miles
Power: 2 kilowatts motor
Battery: 28 volts / 56 amps
Charge Time: 3+ hours
Weight: 185 lbs >>
Maybe someone on this list with deep pockets can "buy" an estimated delivery
date. 60mph from a 2kw motor, 120mi from 1.5kwh, for what looks like a $400
Sunbird from Pep Boys...I think they purposely priced it at $6K so no-one can
get ahold of their demo models (and while we're at it, let's get that hybrid
bike from eCycle).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo,
> your eff is going to be less than 15%.
The energy to overcome rolling resistance for a a 1000 kg car is about 4
kWh/100km, the energy to overcome air drag for the Lupo at 60 mph is
about 8 kWh/100km for a total 12 kWh/100km. 3 l diesel have an energy
content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an overall efficiency of
12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far above 15 %.
> I'm happy!! ;-) It's not that hard or expensive.
> Been there, done that. Some are 98% eff but more
> bucks.
I cannot believe that. Give me a reference to such a design.
How and with what devices have you measured the efficiency?
> I'd bet people on this list know more about real
> life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
> knows. We have much more experience.
But you don't do controlled scientific experiments.
> If you have good charging control, lead batts can
> get 95% eff for most of their life, more when very
> old, 800+ cycles.
I would ask the list how many people have really achieved 800+ cylces.
As you have mentioned Trojan below, even Trojan doesn't specify so many
full cycles for their batteries.
> Even better, the numbers of wt-hrs you put in the
> batts. Very accurate over time and includes all drag.
> Theory, lab is nice, but real world rocks when it
> comes to data that counts.
You cannot overcome physics, sorry.
> That's sad!!!! We have very fast Karman Ghia EV
> conversions that do 100wt-hrs/mile. They can't beat
> that?
The above numbers are for a real drive cycle in traffic.
At what total weight and what speed?
Remember, to overcome rolling resistance alone for a 2.000 lbs car you
need nearly 70 wt-hrs/mile, except you use very small low resistance
tyres.
BTW, are this 100wh/mile from wall-plug including charging and battery,
or are this computed from voltage and current during driving?
> Many EV'ers here use renewable electricity, mostly
> wind, either making their own or buying it.
Are you sure that *many* is true?
A poll in the list would be interesting.
> And 1/3
> about is non-fossil fuels like hydro, nuke and only 1%
> from oil.
... and 56 % from coal and 23 % from natural gas.
http://www.nuclearwaste.com/s/usaenergy/
> Buying RE, hydro, nuke or make your own, the net
> CO2 is Zero. Beat that.
Yes, you *can* do that, but is it really done currently?
> Mine's a fair size larger, about the same weight
> but faster top speed, acceleration.
There is the Twike which uses only about 60 Wh/mile.
But all this are no real cars.
> Basicly a US gal of diesel will make 10kw-hr of
> electricity or 16 shaft hp-hr at wide open throttle.
10 KW is 13,6 hp
> 1/2 of the genorators around here in Tampa get 60%
> eff as combined turbine-steam.
The few modern CCPP for peak load are not that really relevant when most
of the base load and medium load power generation comes from coal power
plants that are only about 40 % efficient.
> There were but they crushed or shipped them. The
> EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would easily with 100-160 mile
> range and 80mph.
You saw the statement from Toyota?
Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
We appreciate your interest in the RAV4 Electric Vehicle (EV).
We discontinued sales of the RAV4 EV due to low sales levels. As a
result, no business case could be made for continuing sales of the RAV4
EV at these volumes. We believe that advances in hybrid technology and
other advanced systems have a much greater potential for the
environment and Toyota.
This means that electric cars are not ready for prime time. They have
chances in some niche markets. An of course, they are of interest for
hobbiests like you and me, because we can build something cheaply from
used parts and costs are not that critical.
> There are some great deals on used EV's in Europe.
Used EV's that don't have a speed of 60 mph and don't achieve 100 miles
with one charge are not that really interesting to me.
> You can do that right or wrong. My complete E
> drive, charging including new batts was $600.
> I've priced out a new one including batts at about
> $1700, Euro-1,300 for a production car like mine.
Your car probably wouldn't be allowed to run on road here in europe. ;-)
> I use batts, Trojan T105's that cost 1/2 the
> Optima, about 1,000 cycles life, have 2 times the cap
> and need only 8 of them.
Trojan specifys 438 LEU's for the T-105. $60/438 = 14 ct/kWh
You Trojan tell that 1.000 cycles are no problem. I am sure they would
be happy for marketing. ;-)
End even if you achieve 1.000 cycles your math is wrong:
If we take the 5 h rate of 185 Ah, usable is 80 % of it 148 Ah. Over the
lifetime this would be 6 V * 148 Ah * 1000 = 888 kWh. And at $60 per
battery about 7 ct/kWh.
Your numbers are simply wrong!
> If you think EV's are costly losers, why are you on
> this list?
I don't think they are costly loosers. But I think they aren't ready for
primetime because of a lot of factors. This is also the reason why no
large car maker has committed to sell electric cars in large quantities,
and the small companies are struggling with high costs.
And as long as the electric energy comes from the wall plug with the
current energy mix the savings on CO2 and other emissions are on average
not considerable better than from a comparable modern ICE car. This is
important when widespread use starts. Not so for the hobbiests that have
access to green energy.
Nevertheless the hobbiest like you and others on the list are driving
the development forward.
Cheers,
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:17:14 -0800, Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would be unfair to compare the efficiency of an ICE at the gas
> pump to the efficiency of an EV at the power plant.
So you agree that at this point the difference in emissions is not very
large, or the EV even has an disadvantage?
> Crude oil is not
> gasoline or diesel and my EV is fueled by PbO2, Pb, and H2SO4.
Yes, the easiest way to get peace of mind is to ignore this all
together. ;-)
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:47:37 -0800 (PST), Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system.
> Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in
> transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by
> distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop
> the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
>
> Or do you start at the mountain where the ore is mined and crushed and then
> transported
> to the place where it is turned into the metals that are used to make the
> various
> machinery needed to drill the oil well in the first place? Gobs of energy
> used just to
> get ready to drill that well and gobs more used to make it productive,
> assuming it’s not
> a dry hole. And then, in some parts of the world more then others, someone
> needs to spend
> a ton more energy protecting this oil well from sabotage.
> Probably left out a few energy consuming steps here. Hard to really see all
> the energy we
> use.
Why do you want to make it so complicated?
The price we pay all contain the costs of exploration, drilling,
transport, refining, distribution, ...
If all this would be relevant then wouldn't be the price much higher?
Emil
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:11:59 -0800, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Imagine that every manufacturing facility had to, Knowing what we
> know today about various sources, install it's own renewable power.
> It would surely increase the installation cost of the facility,
> but is entirely within our capital and capabilities. It would
> eliminate subsequent power costs for all manufacturing. Zero
> power cost for producing say, vehicles or batteries or toys.
> Even if you aren't producing products you are always producing
> energy that is bound to be consumed by someone else on the grid.
If the manufacturing facility is energy intensive than it would go out
of business within short time because most renewable power is currently
more expensive than conventional power.
The situation would be different if a CO2 tax would be introduced. Then
all companies would have to go this route. But even that would be
problematic because the whole country wouldn't be able to compete on
exports anymore. The products would just be to expensive.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< Global Electric | Solium Power | R-Electric Car
Global Electric CorporationE-Cobra
The E-Cobra features a unique Lithium Power System that makes it a sustainable
zero emission two-wheel vehicle. This sleek, exceptional performance, electric
motorcycle is ideal for both the rental market as well as for personal
transportation in urban areas.
Speed: Up to 60 mph
Range: Up to 120 miles
Power: 2 kilowatts motor
Battery: 28 volts / 56 amps
Charge Time: 3+ hours
Weight: 185 lbs >>
How about something sold by a company that has a track record of EV's? This
looks like a worthy successor to the EVT168 (and they supply realistic
numbers):
http://www.evtamerica.com/z20.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick, Another easy test is motor circuit continuity to ground. Measure
resistance between the motor terminals and the motor case. All should be
greater than 1 mega ohm in a clean, dry motor. If this resistance is very
low, the motor is either very wet and/or dirty. or the winding is shorted to
ground. If the winding is shorted at only one point, motor operation will
not be effected by this. If you have multiple shorts, motor current could
be bypassing parts of the motor circuit causing some of the weird problems
you have described. Either way, single short or multiple shorts, this
indicates damaged motor insulation. Mark T.
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--- Begin Message ---
Current discussion made me look for previously active links - do these guys have
a new site or have they finally admitted defeat and given up "gathering
investors"? Latest news in a search tonight came up with a July 2002 deal with
Chinese manufacturers.
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--- Begin Message ---
Stephen Johnsen wrote:
>Hello, I have been quietly monitoring the list for
>the last few months. I
>am designing a high performance electric car at the
>University of
>Washington. Major construction will begin in weeks
>and so we must decide on
>our final components ASAP.
Awesome. I proposed a similar idea at my university, and I
almost made a presentation to the Formula SAE team until it
was discovered that the Dean pulled funding from the SAE
department, and that my project idea wouldn't go through
given the Dean was going on a major expense cutting rampage,
causing the SAE team to have to delay their racecar until
they can somehow raise $8k. My idea encompassed a street EV
with a roofline only 36 inches from the ground, and the
sketches I drew sort of looked like a cross between the Opel
Eco Speedster, Minority Report Lexus, and a Shelby Daytona
Coupe, and intended to use a mid motor rear drive
configuration with no tranny(4:11 rear end), two Zilla 2ks,
two WarP 9 motors in a series/parallel configuration, 15
inch rims, 30 Exide Orbitals in a 360V pack for a 100 mile
range and ridiculously fast recharge(15-20 minutes), and a
carbon fibre body composedof removable panels, so if you got
into an accident, it would be a quick snap to fix. Weight
would have been around 2,300 pounds. It at least worked on
paper, but would have probably run into big problems if I
would have been able to get something like it gonig as a
project. Feel very fortunate to have this opportunity to
build a dream EV. As for myself, I'm going to be building my
EV alone, with my own cash, and unfortunately on an already
made chassis/body(Triumph Spitfire) since custom building
would be too expensive for a college student that doesn't
have super rich parents. It won’t have anywhere near the
range or performance the idea I wanted to present would have
had, but at least 25 miles range and 0-60 ~ 7 seconds should
be within my grasp using 20 orbitals and a Zilla 1k with a
single 9-inch motor(I might be pleasantly surprised on range
if I have good efficiency and low draws, meaning maybe 40
miles? One can hope…). Who knows what I’ll do after my
first one though. On the plus side, it will be my car to
abuse, harass police with, terrorize the streets with, flip
off the SUV occupying my blind spot in(And boy would its
blind spot be horrendous with a hard top!), screw with
people's minds when I take it to get "emission's-checked",
draw large crowds at gas stations as gas prices rise with,
scare unsuspecting passengers with, and not property of my
University. :-)
NiMH batteries are virtually unobtainable for this
application. I'm sure you know about Ovonic and what
happened with them. Some NiMHs for EV use must exist,
however, since there was an electric Lotus Elise made by
Zytec that used NiMH cells arranged into modules(It formerly
used NiCds). The NiCd version got 0-60 in 6 seconds, topped
90 MPH using a single gear ratio, and did 100-120 miles per
charge. Don't know about the NiMH version, as after
contacting Zytec about the NiCd version, they told me about
the NiMH version, and never gave specifics. My guess is NiMH
version got 150 miles range, but it's as good as any,
especially not even knowing the pack size. I remember
researching prices and finding Li Ion to be significantly
cheaper than NiMH, but don't have any specific examples I
can cite, nor am I certain those batteries I searched would
have been suitable for EV application, although they
appeared so(If I could remember them, I'd list them).
Hybrid packs could be prone to problems, given differing
discharge characteristics, voltage sag, and charging
requirements, although it would be possible to do a hybrid
pack. I wouldn't want to wade through its complexity though,
although a management system for Li Ions is complex enough.
One idea that would be promising is taking NiMH packs from
junked Priuses(As one person did for a Lotus 7-based kit
car, using them solely and no ultracaps or other batteries),
and using them to provide peak power, and using perhaps
Thundersky Li Ions for range. It might be a bit cheaper than
using 18650-size Li Ions and their complex management
system, but the T-skies have jumped in price due to
inflation here, rising demand for their product, and high
oil prices.
Ultracaps have been used with some success. Talk to Victor
Tikhonov for details. They are pretty pricey though, and you
may be better off using a single Li Ion pack.
Also, the West Philadelphia High School EV team has built a
diesel-electric hybrid K1 Attack kit car, which got its peak
power from ultracaps. 0-60 < 4 seconds, < 1800 pund curb
weight, and over 50 miles per gallon. Getting ahold of the
project leaders may not be such a bad idea. Their website is
here:
http://www.penn-partners.org/evteam/attack.htm
100 miles range? With good aerodynamics, lead acid batteries
can achieve this, and this will keep price down. AC
Propulsion's lead acid TZero did 80-100 miles per charge,
being its real world 70 MPH range, and Coconni's lead acid
CRX could exceed 130 miles per charge cycle range with
careful driving. Given AC systems are about 10-15% more
efficient than DC ones, achieving similar numbers is not out
of the question with a high torque DC motor and a Zilla 2k.
Just don't drive like Otmar 100% of the time, and you'll do
ok. ;-)
How much are you willing to spend or have available to
spend? That will be your main constraint. There are three
attributes that are paramount to the car you want to make:
range, speed, and affordability. Pick two. For $90k+, you
could have it all, 250 miles range, 0-60 < 4 seconds, and a
top speed in excess of 150 with a transmission, but that
isn't very affordable. For $20-25k, you might be able to do
80-100 miles range and 0-60 ~ 6 seconds, top speed > 110,
for said 80-100 mile range would require exceptional
aerodynamics and use sealed lead acid batteries, and such a
great looking price would assume labor and use of
machine/auto shop is entirely free. Or you could use Exides
instead of Optimas, possibly decrease range(I have been
given data that can argue either case), but get 0-60 < 4
seconds since the Exides can push 2000 amps, instead of the
Optimas' 1000. To get the most out of those batteries,
they'd need to be kept at their optimum temperature and a
high voltage pack(300+ volts) would be needed to keep
current draw down, otherwise their capacity in real world
conditions could drastically drop, with Peukert's effect
being the large bulk of that drop in capacity, which makes
NiMH and Li Ion that much more appealing(But still doesn't
change their price, complexity, and almost unobtainum
status). At 60-70 miles per hour, for 100 miles range with
lead acid, you'd want your battery current draw under 30
amps. With 25 Optima D750s, this would mean about 12 usable
kWh to full discharge, or about 70 miles range with a 170
wh/mile consumption, which would necessitate an overall Cd*A
of about 4.5 and sub 2,700 pound curb weight. If your budget
is virtually unlimited, have at it with the Li Ions and 200+
mile range. We all know this would be affordable if the
parts and car were in mass production. Otherwise, learn your
limits, and figure out ways to minimize their impact on the
quality of the car you want to build, without breaking the
bank.
I must say, those sketches of the car drawn look great. I'd
like to make a few recommendations to the aesthetics. Change
the head lights to a more rounded look. Ever see some of the
Ferrari's from the 1960s or perhaps a Lotus 11 or Jaguar
E-Type? Round LeMans-style headlights would look awesome on
this thing. They also appeared on the Shelby Daytona Coupe
you know and love. And the tail lights in the back? Rounded
would also fit well. Take a nice good look at the Lotus
Elise for a tail light style to get inspiration from. Even
if it may be a wagon, it doesn't have to look anything like
one like it does now. For an idea of what I'm hinting at,
also look at the Lotus Europa, or the Jenson GT. As for the
rear end profile, look at the Volvo 3CC
concept(http://www.allsportauto.com/english/volvo-3cc.php).
Imagine the 3CC rear end profile, Lotus Elise-like tail
light arrangement, and Shelby Daytona Coupe headlights and
front end. That would look gorgeous, and would have
excellent aerodynamics to boot, and would lend itself many
differences from Brock’s design, yet also sort of update
it in a unique way. Also, covering the rear wheel wells
would reduce your drag by about 10%, and with such an exotic
configuration with 60s era sport racer look, looking weird,
even with covered rear wheel wells, would end up looking
good and would command the car immediate attention
everywhere it went. Then you could pull into a gas station,
pop your hood open, and watch in delight as a confused yet
interested crowd forms around the car based on its looks
alone, only to be utterly shocked when they see it doesn’t
have an 'engine'. Be ready to answer questions!
Having looked through some SAE publications at my
university, making a car with a < .25 Cd seems very possible
with the body style you are looking at. A shame you want
such a big car though, as that means big frontal area(Well,
I consider 'big' anything over 2,600 pounds and/or more than
48 inches ground to roof!). But then again, most people in
this country don't seem to take the impractical sort of
small cars too well, as much as I'm personally obsessed with
them. Take a look at the Opel Eco Speedster, with a .20 Cd
and 15.8 square foot frontal area. Got over 100 miles per
gallon on diesel and tops 155 MPH off of only 112
horsepower(And if it weren't governor limited, it would be
faster). THAT as an EV could easily exceed 150 miles per
charge highway range on 1200 pounds of sealed lead acid
batteries and with about a 2,300 pound curb weight(The
actual ICE Eco Speedster is about 1,500 pounds). Just
another car to look at for inspiration, although it's
definitely too small to your liking(Roof is only 37 inches
off the ground!).
Good luck on your project. I'd have LOVED to have had the
opportunity to set up and help make reality a project like
this, even if it wouldn't be my car. And if this will be
your car? I envy you!
Make this thing a monster, and keep it efficient at the same
time. Telling people your Corvette killer can kick a Honda
Insight's ass well to wheels efficiency and didn't use a
drop of gas would be the ultimate in shock value. And think
of all the fun to be had at stoplights! If only that
egomaniacal kid in a riced-out Civic mommy and daddy bought
him, or the trailer-trash in the Trans-Am, or the yuppie in
his shiny new M3 had the slightest idea!
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick an' All;
Check the resistance from the field lugs to ground, like if the fields
are grounded to the frame or to themselves. I had a ADC armature coil
ground, car would go at 30 volts but no more, drove it home that way. Higher
voltages pinned my ampmeter. Had Warfield Electric rewind the armature. that
fixed that, still honeymooning, 5 years later. If ya wanna spend the bux for
a NEW motor, get a Warp, they are a bit beefier, cheaper, in an EV on road
way, bigger brushes, comm, and interconnecters,. It was designed BY listers
for on road service, AND Warfield will be with you if ya have any problems.
ADC doesn't want to hear about it, if you have problems! Been there, done
that! Of course, as Rich sez, don't trash the ADV, it's a good motor, AFTER
the internals are streightedned out. Wish ya were right down the road, so
you could try MY new 9 in. in the Jeep, see how it goes. Anybody Out There
got a motor Nick could bolt in and try?
Warfield rewound my motor for about 300 bux! and only a few daze.
Shipping and all that was the largest part of the time and 60 bux for
shipping to/from CT.These are old prices, though.
My two ohms worth
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
> Nick, Another easy test is motor circuit continuity to ground. Measure
> resistance between the motor terminals and the motor case. All should be
> greater than 1 mega ohm in a clean, dry motor. If this resistance is
very
> low, the motor is either very wet and/or dirty. or the winding is shorted
to
> ground. If the winding is shorted at only one point, motor operation will
> not be effected by this. If you have multiple shorts, motor current could
> be bypassing parts of the motor circuit causing some of the weird problems
> you have described. Either way, single short or multiple shorts, this
> indicates damaged motor insulation. Mark T.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if you really want to build an EV, transfer to ~100 miles up the
road to WWU. They have a nice ID program there as well, and the Vehicle
Research Institute. They have built quite a few solar, battery EV, CNG,
and hybrid vehicles up there. Not to mention race cars, crash test cars
and even sel propelled hot tubs, although the last one was not a
sanctioned project, I think.
Based on my experience with student built cars, I would avoid lithium.
You probably can't afford it and the fire hazard becomes more of an
issue with increasing mass speccific energy density. And student built
cars typically do not have the sort of babysitting needed for an EV
with a finicky battery.
A hybrid battery pack seems fine on paper. But see above about Lithium.
Ultracaps have been used. Often with a high power DC-DC. But they can
be a hassle and probably aren't worth it for the first iteration.
If you can get a nice, robust NiMH battery from a reputable supplier
(not Ovonics/Cobasys) like Saft or Gold Peak, then with appropriate
safeties, that might be the thing to do. Maybe a University can get a
break on the price.
Good luck, and maybe a field trip to Bellingham might be in order.
Seth
On Dec 11, 2004, at 11:22 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks, I am forwarding this message for Stephen, as he is having
subscription problems. (He can read, but not post).
******************************
Hello, I have been quietly monitoring the list for the last few
months. I am designing a high performance electric car at the
University of
Washington. Major construction will begin in weeks and so we must
decide on our final components ASAP.
For batteries we were initially thinking large scale lithium ion
batteries would be the best. AC Propulsion's Tzero electric car gets
incredible performance using over 6,000 laptop batteries linked
together. We want something that is easy to change in and out so large
scale batteries seem to make more sense. I suppose a well designed
pack or a few packs might be okay too. Currently we have been
negotiating with Valence a company out of Texas who makes standard
size Lithium Ion batteries using a phosphate based cathode for better
safety. Anyway, looking into the matter further it appears that
NiCads and NiMH batteries last longer than Lithium based batteries
(both shelf life and charge cycles)? I believe NiCads, at least, are
also cheaper?
One thought we've had is to make a sort of hybrid-battery system.
Use two different types of batteries. One type for acceleration and
another type for longer range and simply cruising. So what if we used
a pack of Li-Ion batteries for acceleration and then NiMH or NiCads
for cruising? What do you think of this? Also would it be possible for
the long-range/cruising pack to also help charge the acceleration
pack? The idea being that this coupled with regenerative braking could
help keep the depth of discharge of the acceleration pack in the low
percentages thereby extending the life of the Li-Ions for example and
making them closer to that of the Nickel based Batteries.
What do you think of all this? Do you have any other ideas or
advice? What about using Ultracapacitors instead for the acceleration?
Also, where are good places to purchase NiCads or NiMH... and what
about Zinc Air batteries? So far they look like they have good energy
properties but the ones I've found require mechanical charging (i.e.
taking cells out of the pack and then putting new ones in while the
old ones are reconditioned in a special device.)
Thank you, please take a look at our website:
http://students.washington.edu/toro66
Regards,
Stephen Johnsen
DISCLAIMER: I am the industrial design student on the team my
specific knowledge of batteries and electrical components is not as
good as some of our other team members but I think creatively and try
and come up with what makes sense. We are designing a car for
commuting--but we want it to out accelerate most any other car on the
road as well as get a range of at least 100 miles and look good while
doing it. This will help it appeal to the masses and make the average
person or even the hell bent horsepower nuts (like I used to be) say,
"Hmmmm." Any and all information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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