EV Digest 3956
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Etek amp draw?
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Etek amp draw?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: eCycle
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) E-Woody, was : EV eff,
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: eCycle
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) aging TS LiIon 90AH capacity and internal resistance
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Etek amp draw?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-Woody, was : EV eff,
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Ampabout, or That EV Grin
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Bill Dube Crimper URL - more info.
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: BB600
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BB600
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV eff, and accident
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: That's it I'm running for president
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Bill Dube Crimper URL - more info.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ampabout, or That EV Grin
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV eff
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> interesting - have you got a picture of your cooling system?
Sure: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492d.jpg or
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.jpg
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've designed motors at Ametek that have holes drilled
in the endbell with fan cooling. We doubled HP rating
for the same winding temperature (compared to a motor
with no airflow). Forced air cooling makes a world of
difference in motor performance.
You may not double performance in a large EV motor,
but I think you can get at least 25% more rating with
good forced air flow into the motor with a high power
blower. Another advantage in my TEVan is the brush
dust doen't cause contimination on the commutator.
Without my blowers I notice surging in the controller.
Rod
--- MYLES ANTHONY TWETE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > interesting - have you got a picture of your
> cooling system?
>
> Sure: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492d.jpg or
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.jpg
>
> -Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My problem with them was, money in hand, they wouldn't sell me product.
They wanted to know my design, production, and commit to units per month.
I tried to tell them I was prototyping a human/powered recumbent trike
and they said they wouldn't sell to me because I would be conflicting
with someone else they had promised exclusivtiviy on similar product.
my BS detector went off and I gave up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
It's a custom built, 8 yr old, 1,000lb, 2
seat, 3 wheel EV sportwagon with t-105s of 36 or
48vdc battery pack called the E-woody with the unibody
made of wood/epoxy.
Using wood/epoxy made it very strong for it's
weight. The unibody weighs only 200 lbs, a little
larger, taller than a compact car and about 1/2 the
weight of a metal version of the same strength. I
design, build high tech, fast sail-powerboats of
wood/epoxy, composites for a living sometimes.
It was my first car design and made some
mistakes, was rear ended at 25mph and survived much
better than the car that hit it and works fine now.
One point I really like is it's very low
costs to build, drive of under $.06/mile total.
Repair costs after the accident was $80!!! The other
car, several thousands!
Dispite it's looks, women amoung others love
it!!
A new, better version is being built that
will handle more batts, be more aero as cash becomes
available.
It's in the EV photo album amoung other
places along with a mock-up of the next one in white.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is you car? Battery type and voltage?
> Mike G.
>
> > My EV is 1,000lbs, not 1,000kgs.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps it wasn't BS. Take a look at http://www.ebicibikes.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: eCycle
My problem with them was, money in hand, they wouldn't sell me product.
They wanted to know my design, production, and commit to units per month.
I tried to tell them I was prototyping a human/powered recumbent trike
and they said they wouldn't sell to me because I would be conflicting
with someone else they had promised exclusivtiviy on similar product.
my BS detector went off and I gave up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finally after 18 months I have actually run a complete charge and
discharge cycle on 92 (of my 94) TS LiIon cells. During the discharge
cycle, I paused the load about every 10 minutes for about 1 minute so I
could measure changes in the internal resistance at various SOC.
The spreadsheets are at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/LiIonCellSummary.xls and LiIonCellSummary.csv.
The 90AH cells were not new when I got them, and have been sitting
around since Spring of 2003. I have checked their voltages monthly, and
topped them up whenever they fell below 3.5V. However, the last four
cells, 89-92, have been the victims of many experiments, and seem to be
much worse for the wear.
I found that there is a bit of variance in both capacity and internal
resistance, and (for those of you that have excel), have plotted a
scatter graph in the spreadsheet.
I hope that by identifying relatively bad cells, I can put together a
pack where all batteries in a string are comparable.
I was running 25A on each discharge cycle down to 3V, and 18A for the
charge cycle, CC. The CV voltage was (approximately) 4.25V, but the four
power supplies I was using varied a bit under different load conditions.
The data acquisition system (HP 34970A) disconnected them if the voltage
exceeded 4.28V. (I did not use a pulse algorithm, as I eventually will
in the car).
Cheers,
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:04:42 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The energy to overcome rolling resistance for a a
> > 1000 kg car is about 4
>
> My EV is 1,000lbs, not 1,000kgs.
Ok, then you may have less than 2 kWh/100km.
>
> > kWh/100km, the energy to overcome air drag for the
> > Lupo at 60 mph is
> > about 8 kWh/100km for a total 12 kWh/100km. 3 l
>
> My EV only has a 3.5hp motor though I get more from
> it, about 5.5 hp and it does 55mph on that. Real life
> beats your theory.
No, I compared the Polo. If we look at your EV then the conditions are
different. You probably have also only half the air drag. So the theory
comes to a number that is in the range of real life.
And BTW, it is not my theory. It is simple physics.
>
> > diesel have an energy
> > content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an
> > overall efficiency of
> > 12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far above
> > 15 %.
>
> I doubt that but even if it was that at full
> throttle, most of the time it isn't at full power
> reducing it's eff greatly. Do you understand this?
A diesels efficiency is not so dependent on the throttle because there
is no throttle loss.
> It doesn't sound like it. Part load eff is really
> bad because the engine friction, water pump, cam, oil
> pump, alt, ect stays about the same robbing fuel,
> power, eff at lower output levels than WOT.
This is all wrong. The Lupo *average* fuel consumption is 78 mpg
(MVEG-cycle).
> Rich Rudman's PFC charger at it's most eff voltage
> though they could be made that eff for other voltages.
> And he builds them in his garage!!!
But he doesn't claim that his chargers have this high efficiency over
the full charge cycle. Or did I miss something?
If you really want to measure charger efficiency you have to measure kWh
out vs kWh in over a full charge cycle (with and without equalization).
Rich Rudman certainly has a fine highly efficient charger, but even he
cannot overcome physics.
> > But you don't do controlled scientific experiments.
> That's pretty arrogant of you as are many of your
> statements.
You wrote:
> I'd bet people on this list know more about real
> life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
> knows. We have much more experience.
Isn't that very arrogant in the first place?
> No one does full discharge cycles as it would kill
> lead batts within 50-100 cycles as most other batts.
> Don't you know that?. I'm talking about 50-80%
> discharge cycles.
80 % are full cycles.
> All cars are niche markets!! EV's can easily meet
> 85% of driving needs now. If you add a small rarely
> used gen that goes up to 95%.
> There is no reason a good 100 mile range, 80 mph
> EV can't be built for under $15,000 except Detroit,
> ect refuses to build them.
> And for another $10,000, range can go to 200-250
> miles very soon as Li-ions come down in price at the
> rate they are now.
�
I agree.
> >
> > Your car probably wouldn't be allowed to run on road
> > here in europe. ;-)
>
> Why, it's faster acceleration than many euro cars,
> trucks!! For $3,000 more, $4,000 total it could go 80
> mph for 70+ miles or 65 mph at 100 miles.
No, because of safety issues. The laws here in germany are much more
restricting. There are very few conversions here and only a few
specially build like the CityEl and the Twike (both comparable to the
Sparrow) have made it in considerable number to the street.
> If the money spent on
> ICE cars were to be used to design, make good EV's,
> they would beat the pants off ICE's.
I agree.
> And the addition of a generator of 6kw/1,000 lbs
> on a 100 mile range EV to be used the few times it's
> needed while getting over 100mpg makes them much
> better than any ICE and would increase our, your
> economic, national security.
I agree.
> You should ask questions rather than state facts
> you no little about.
Be sure, I know the facts.
> We are the best source of real EV
> info in the world and don't let bull here.
If stating facts and physics laws is bull to you then I am sorry.
> We design,
> build, drive more road EV's than anywhere, anyone
> else.
Oh, more than 5.000 CityEl are not bad. And there are numerous other
cars like the VW CityStromer, Citre�n Saxo, Hotzenblitz, Twike, KEWET,
Renault Berlingo, Renault Clio, Legier Optima, Fiat Cinquecento el,
MicroCar el, ATW, ... I bet here in germany are running more commercial
electric cars than in the states. This seems very logical because of the
high difference between fuel and electric costs.
> Also you seem to listen to corporations that have
> other agendas other that the truth about EV's.
It seems to be that it isn't possible to do a constructive discussion
with you. It doesn't help your arguments if you try to offend other
people.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:28:07 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It was my first car design and made some
> mistakes, was rear ended at 25mph and survived much
> better than the car that hit it and works fine now.
> One point I really like is it's very low
> costs to build, drive of under $.06/mile total.
> Repair costs after the accident was $80!!! The other
> car, several thousands!
Did you catch up with the guy who hit you then? Any compensation / insurance?
Best regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is probably going out as HTML but I can't access my smtp server here in
Japan so maybe someone who actually recieves it can forward it in text form so
the Digesters on the list can get it too. Thanks.
Wow, that sounds so good. Ampabout. I've wanted to be able to write
that for so long and now that I'm "in the club", I can. I bought the 72v
1980 Volkswagen Rabbit from Seth and I couldn't have a bigger EV grin.
First, I want to say thanks again to Seth for selling his car at such a
bargain price. Arigato, arigato, arigato. I couldn't have afforded an EV
without his generosity. He could have easily sold it whole or parted it
out for more money. I'd also like to thank the Academy........ ;-) And
my apologies to the guy on the list who was selling the Elcar and to
Snow EV. I had planned on buying an Elcar and a new controller from Snow
but this opportunity came along and I couldn't pass it up.
My first EV grin with the Rabbit happened in Seth's driveway. Before
we hooked it up to my truck to tow it home, we drove it around for a few
minutes so he could show me how to properly drive it. Throughout the
entire buying process he kept emphasizing how slow it is with just a
6.7" motor but it honestly has plenty of oomph for a simple commuter,
which is what I want out of this car. We hooked it up with a bumper tow
kit and I towed it home to Brunswick, ME. When I got home I took my kids
for a ride around the block and my oldest daughter christened it Mouse,
because, she said, it's as quiet as one. I think she likes the car as
much as I do.
I'm in Japan right now and I don't know when I'll get back with many
tours extended because of O.I.F., but it shouldn't be, at the worst,
more than six months. When I get back I plan on going through the entire
car to get it ready for the road. Seth gave me a lot of information
about Mouse but if any previous owners are on the list please send me
information about the history of the car; how did it catch on fire, who
originally commissioned the conversion, etc.
The car is in very rough shape. Don't take what I'm saying as
complaining, I'm just explaining what condition it's in. Even in the
condition it's in now, I honestly feel it is a privilege to own and
drive and I grin even when I'm just thinking about it. The interior is
in bad shape. When I took my brother for a spin he said, not in a
demeaning way, it smells like a first car. I plan on stripping
everything out and thoroughly shampooing the interior. I also need to
find a new rear seat and make a headliner. Both were damaged in a
battery fire. I'm going to line the interior with Dynamat to make it
even quieter, does anyone know of a cheaper option to deaden sound?
There is lots of corrosion which needs to be dealt with and I'm going to
go through the brakes and repack the bearings to make sure they are up
to snuff. Here is a list of the rest of the things I want to do to the car:
-I'm going to replace the battery pack. I need to keep costs as low
as possible so I want to try and keep the motor and controller (a 6.7"
and a Curtis) and maximize what they are capable of. My commute is only
about 12.5 to 13 miles so I don't need a huge battery pack. I haven't
used the online range calculator (here in on base in Japan our only
online access is dialup with 15 hours a month so I have to budget my
time) but I believe the 72v pack should be more than sufficient. The
only question is how I will compose the pack. Twelve 6v floodeds or two
strings of six 12v Exide orbitals? What are the advantages to two
strings as opposed to the 6v? Disadvantages? With two strings of 12v
Exides, would the performance increase be noticeable and would I get the
same or nearly the same range? If I keep the 6.7" and used the 12v
battery pack, will I need to cool the motor with a blower? Should I cool
it anyhow? Any other options I don't know about? Can the Curtis and ADC
handle 12v Exides? Performance isn't vital to me but I admit it would be
nice to have. Whichever battery pack I choose, I'm going to put a
battery balancer system on it to make them last as long as possible.
What are the name of the balancers that have the flashing LEDs?
-A new charger is needed also. It currently has a Lester but I need
a smart charger that I can plug in when I get home and the pack is ready
to go in the morning. I remember Victor once saying that a good charger
is even more important than getting the most advanced batteries. What
are my options? I want a smart charger that I can use for the 72v pack I
currently have but that can be also used with up to 144v if I ever
change the system.
-I believe the 8" has the same bolt pattern as the 6.7". If I ever
find an 8 incher at a bargain price I'd like to swap them out. I think
the Curtis is 72v at 400 amps. Could I use this controller with an 8"?
What would be the effect on performance and range?
-I recently bought a plastic welder and I am going to use it to
build new battery boxes out of plastic and put battery heaters in them.
Currently the forward 4 batteries aren't covered and the rear batteries
are enclosed in plywood. What do most people use for heaters? Is it run
separately off of 110v AC or is it powered through the charger when the
batteries are charging? I also plan to put a belly pan on the car to
smooth out the airflow and enclose the engine compartment. At 72v and a
commute with a maximum speed of 40 mph this car won't see any highway
speeds for the near future. How much of a difference would a bellypan
make in regards to range for a low speed EV? Is it worth the extra
weight or should I just enclose the engine compartment and leave the
rest of the belly exposed. I also might replace the aging Goodyear
Invictas with newer LLR tires. It depends on what kind of condition the
Goodyears are in.
-The trainy is very sloppy. I usually can't tell if I'm in 1st or
2nd and I have to physically hold it in reverse to make sure it doesn't
pop out of gear. Is this a problem with the transmission or is it a
shifter problem? I'm also going to replace the xmsn fluid with something
less viscous like Redline MT-90 or 75w90. Any other ideas?
-There is a lot of corrosion on the motor itself. Should I take it
off or would it be better to just leave it? I wouldn't want to take the
chance on getting something inside the motor and damaging it when it
would have been ok to just leave it on the motor. But then I also want
something that looks nice.
-Seth included a lot of extra parts in the sale, among them a
kilowatt meter like you find on the side of a house to track total
energy used. How do you reset these meters to zero? How do I hardwire it
to the pack? Are there any precautions I need to take to keep any damage
from occurring to the pack or charger?
That's about all I have time to write for now. If anyone has any
other ideas on how I can improve this EV please feel free to pass it
along. Also, Japan is awesome! They have such cool cars. Everywhere I
look, I see great candidates for conversion to EV. It's nice to see a
society not obsessed with gas guzzling SUVs. The only humvees I see
around here aren't driven by Soccer Moms but by people actually in the
military. Imagine that ;-).
John Shelton
1980 72 volt Rabbit
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi JCT and everyone,
Hi Ryan,
Is this the only page? I see no link...
Yeah, that's the only page. I found a few other sites with some
comments about building the crimper, but this was the most useful.
Was the 13mm socket for standard batt. connector (for #4 wire?)
The 13mm socket is for 2/0 cable lugs and terminals only. A different
size (which I don't know) would have to be used for any other size
cable. Bill determined the size socket needed by looking at "real" set
of crimpers and measuring. You could do the same to figure out the size
needed for #4. It would probably be helpful to see what it was supposed
to look like before building too. Seeing the price tag might give more
incentive too :)
I mean what is the outside diameter of the lug crimped with this tool.
I think I answered that. Whatever size a 2/0 lug is.
What kind of bolt cutter was used (5/8" bolt cutter or? ...)
These are the ones I bought:
http://www.toolprice.com/c=Koj5BZXBcNKqpO3pvQBpmnu3X/product/7152Q
They aren't the highest quality. The handles are tube metal. I don't
know if they come in any other fashion, but it seems like after doing
all 30 or so crimps that my handle has a little crease/pucker in it near
the base. I hope they'll still last awhile. But now since I know how
to build them, I might make a nicer one if I ever need to do lots of
crimping.
Despite the crimped lug pict. which seems round, the outside of the
crimped lug must look like inside the six pan socket, yes?
Yes. I think if you get the thing built just right, it will produce a
fairly round looking lug. I think I didn't have mine adjusted
perfectly, because some of my crimps sort of puckered on the sides. I
did the hang test on my crimps though, and they held. I'm pretty
confident they are going to hold up for a long time.
Also are 3 pans of the socket used on each jaw? I seem to see only two...
It took me awhile to figure out exactly what was going on. Stare at the
picture longer and you'll get it :) The socket was just sliced across
two of the points. So that leaves two other points in each jaw. The
other two points are along the joint of the two jaws.
I have just been giving a price of 197$ for an 8-10" long crimper for
lug fitting on #10 wire.
I find it, well, extravagant...
Yep. That's what I thought too. That's why I built mine. It was worth
it for several reasons. It's fun to have your own home-built tool, and
even with the 1-2 hours building it, it saved money. My time isn't
worth $100/hr. Maybe someday :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat;
Hey! Something happening in MY time zone on EV batteries. Am interested
in the nicad purchase, maybe me, too? Have a vehicle to haul them here as
needed. Nicads could be the way to go with my Sundance conversion, in the
planning stage.Are you thinking of a 120 or so volt system?Hit me back ,
directly if ya have a few minutes.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: BB600
> I am really tempted to buy 100-120 of these BB600
> Nicad cells to put in my fiero. I realize it wouldn't
> be a long range pack but it would be better than a
> single string of a dozen yellow tops. And being light
> and maintaining performance in cold weather would be
> nice (what good is 45 mile range if it drops to 20 in
> the winter).
>
> but i am somewhat risk averse...and don't have money
> to burn so i wonder :
>
> has anyone actually used a series string of these
> batteries with any success ?
>
> It sounds like Jerry may have a short string in his
> woody (is that right ?).
>
> What are the issues with them? charging? watering?
> lots of interconnects to babysit ? anything else ?
>
> the price is attractive, and it sounds like seth has
> some within driving distance of me. so, can anyone
> talk me into or out of trying these in my fiero ?
>
> ~fortunat
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hey! Something happening in MY time zone on EV batteries. Am interested
>in the nicad purchase, maybe me, too? Have a vehicle to haul them here as
>needed. Nicads could be the way to go with my Sundance conversion, in the
>planning stage.Are you thinking of a 120 or so volt system?Hit me back ,
>directly if ya have a few minutes.
>
>Bob
This is Dave Cover again, still a CT EV wannabe. I'm seriously thinking NiCads
are the way to go
too. Are we all competing for a scarce resource, or is there a supplier out
there we can use for a
bulk order? I've tried emailing that photo place in DC but get no response.
Maybe we could join
forces for a better deal? Ultimately I'd like to put together an AC (high
voltage) system with
decent range, so I'm looking for a few hundred of those BB600's. I'm going to
try and contact SG
Photo by phone and find out for sure if they have more NiCads. I have a a full
size pickup, so I
could handle a full load of batteries if we can find them.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Emil and All,
--- Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:04:42 -0800 (PST), jerry
> dycus
> > My EV only has a 3.5hp motor though I get more
> from
> > it, about 5.5 hp and it does 55mph on that. Real
> life
> > beats your theory.
>
> No, I compared the Polo. If we look at your EV then
> the conditions are
> different. You probably have also only half the air
> drag. So the theory
> comes to a number that is in the range of real life.
Then mention what you are comparing to, we are
not mind readers.
My EV's aero isn't 1/2 by any means. Better maybe
but not by much. My whole front end was botched from
mistaken room requirements for the front suspension,
wheels. That will be fixed in the next one.
>
> And BTW, it is not my theory. It is simple physics.
Physics isn't the problem, it's your assumptions
that are wrong sometimes.
>
> >
> > > diesel have an energy
> > > content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an
> > > overall efficiency of
> > > 12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far
I don't understand this, what are you saying here
in more detail? Please use gallons either US or Euro.
> above
> > > 15 %.
> >
> > I doubt that but even if it was that at full
> > throttle, most of the time it isn't at full power
> > reducing it's eff greatly. Do you understand this?
>
> A diesels efficiency is not so dependent on the
> throttle because there
> is no throttle loss.
This is one way diesels are more eff, not having
the drag of a throttle plate but not what I was
talking about, it's the loading % of power available.
Again part load eff is what I'm talking about.
Read below again and think about it..
>
> > It doesn't sound like it. Part load eff is
> really
> > bad because the engine friction, water pump, cam,
> oil
> > pump, alt, ect stays about the same robbing fuel,
> > power, eff at lower output levels than WOT.
>
> This is all wrong. The Lupo *average* fuel
> consumption is 78 mpg
> (MVEG-cycle).
So. That doesn't change anything. I can get 75
wt-hr/mile by driving slower.
>
> > Rich Rudman's PFC charger at it's most eff
> voltage
> > though they could be made that eff for other
> voltages.
> > And he builds them in his garage!!!
>
> But he doesn't claim that his chargers have this
> high efficiency over
> the full charge cycle. Or did I miss something?
Again you miss the point, a charger can be
designed for any voltage at that eff. He just did his
at that point.
>
> If you really want to measure charger efficiency you
> have to measure kWh
> out vs kWh in over a full charge cycle (with and
> without equalization).
No, now you are talking about battery eff, not
charger eff. Keep to the subject.
>
> Rich Rudman certainly has a fine highly efficient
> charger, but even he
> cannot overcome physics.
He doesn't as above. Charger and batt eff are 2
diferent things. If you want to talk about total
charge eff say so.
>
> > > But you don't do controlled scientific
> experiments.
> > That's pretty arrogant of you as are many of
> your
> > statements.
>
> You wrote:
>
> > I'd bet people on this list know more about
> real
> > life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
> > knows. We have much more experience.
>
> Isn't that very arrogant in the first place?
No, a fact. We have many more people doing it in
real life and some from our labs, manufactures of EV
components. The people who design, build, use the
stuff.
Some of our members design, build much better EV
equipment than can be bought from big companies, No?
Rich and Otmar with his Zilla controllers are
examples. They do it better at a much lower costs. No?
> >
> > > Your car probably wouldn't be allowed to run on
> road
> > > here in europe. ;-)
> >
> > Why, it's faster acceleration than many euro
> cars,
> > trucks!! For $3,000 more, $4,000 total it could go
> 80
> > mph for 70+ miles or 65 mph at 100 miles.
>
> No, because of safety issues. The laws here in
> germany are much more
> restricting. There are very few conversions here and
> only a few
> specially build like the CityEl and the Twike (both
> comparable to the
> Sparrow) have made it in considerable number to the
> street.
What does that have to do with EV eff?
That just shows what a bad goverment you have that
keeps innovation down, it's people poorer, less
freedom as a result.
I garranty you my EV is a lot safer, faster, more
range than the Twike, CityEl.
Had they be rear ended like mine was, the driver,
passenger would have been killed.
And they are not comparable to a Sparrow which is
faster, longer range, taller. It's handling isn't that
good but neither are the Twike, CityEl.
>
> > You should ask questions rather than state
> facts
> > you no little about.
>
> Be sure, I know the facts.
You know some facts but use them wrong and some are
not good.
Where do you get eff of a diesel is 44% in regular
driving or even WOT? Please give details not in
PDF's.
>
> > We are the best source of real EV
> > info in the world and don't let bull here.
>
> If stating facts and physics laws is bull to you
> then I am sorry.
I have no problem with physics, your facts need
help.
>
> > We design,
> > build, drive more road EV's than anywhere, anyone
> > else.
>
> Oh, more than 5.000 CityEl are not bad. And there
> are numerous other
> cars like the VW CityStromer, Citre�n Saxo,
> Hotzenblitz, Twike, KEWET,
> Renault Berlingo, Renault Clio, Legier Optima, Fiat
> Cinquecento el,
> MicroCar el, ATW, ... I bet here in germany are
> running more commercial
> electric cars than in the states. This seems very
> logical because of the
> high difference between fuel and electric costs.
Those are many different groups, we are 1.
Compared like with like. Twisting things to support
your assumptions isn't good physics, science.
If you include NEV's which are like the Twike,
CityEl but larger, we still have more. And that
doesn't include industral EV's, Golf carts used for
transportation, ect of which there are millions.
>
> > Also you seem to listen to corporations that
> have
> > other agendas other that the truth about EV's.
>
> It seems to be that it isn't possible to do a
> constructive discussion
> with you. It doesn't help your arguments if you try
> to offend other
> people.
I'm not the only one who disagrees with your
statements about diesels being more eff than EV's.
Just because you don't like my points, facts
doesn't mean I don't do constructive discuussions.
Many of your statements I disagree with are mostly
misunderstandings from living in different parts of
the world.
While I know a bunch about Europe, you seem to
know little about the US, this list.
That and a misunderstanding of ICE part load eff.
Your assuptions about batts and their costs,
capacity, eff and eff of various EV systems were wrong
by a lot. No?
Combined with optimistic diesel specs lead you to
wrong assumptions.
>
> Emil
>
PS, EVan, the other car hit and ran tough leaking
much fliuds and making bad noises with it's front
crushed.
jerry dycus
__________________________________
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Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:46 AM
Subject: That's it I'm running for president
> my sloagan will be "5kw of solar on every roof and an EV in evry
> driveway" :-)
>
Hi Jeff;
Ya got MY vote! And energy independance, No need to invade places for
supply of oil, a crash program to get efficient generation of power to feed
millions of Manzanita Micro, Rich, take a bow, chargers on the grid. Charge
plugs at "Gas" stations, plug it in it selects yur voltage and dumps on you
big time. With all the money saved from having to support our greed for oil,
could have universal health care for EVerybody. Cradle to grave health care,
meaningful medical research for cures for the Big Ones, Cancer, AIDS ,
Stupidy, Aldzimers, Parkinsons Diseases. Problems that have been around for
years.Figure out how to do it and spread it round, like SHARE with the rest
of the World, no charge!
Out of dream mode
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: The 200sx is alive!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > After a year of planning, preparing, stealing homework time, and
> > freezing my rear off, I took the 200sx Electric Conversion out for a
> > spin!
>
> Way to go Ryan! I just got the controller in the 300zx , I didn't know
your
> where so far along . With golf cart batteries the 300zx won't be as much
> fun as yours but the guy wants the distance. I was able to get all 26 golf
> cart batteries in and there's not much room
> for anything else , I have the zilla controller slide behind the 8
batteries
> that sit on the motor, very tight fit, . I put the controller hair ball
> ,contactor and e meter shunt all on a 3/4 piece of nicely painted ply wood
,
> Won't be long before my first ride!
>
> > After the excitement of driving it around and taking neighbors for rides
> > (I live in an apartment complex and all my neighbors have kept tabs on
> > the conversion),
>
> And they'll tell there friends who will tell there's , still the spread of
> EV's is slow but now we have one more light in this dark oil filled room .
>
>
> the reality of battery management hit. Poor Rich is
> > stuck with all my PFC specific questions.
> >
> Post them here so we can all learn ,
>
>
> > I'm just soaking it all up. There are lots of things to still be done,
> > but IT DRIVES!!
> >
> > Thanks so much to *everyone* on this list for all the help, advice, and
> > guidance. There is no way in the world this would have happened if it
> > weren't for all the knowledge and encouragement this list has given me.
> > I hope I can give back some of what I've received.
> >
> This was a great post , and for all the people out there thinking about
> doing a conversion , it might be the thing that pushes them over the edge.
> I'll bet your face hurts from that big EV grin that won't go away.
> Steve Clunn
>
>
>
> > Thanks again!
> >
> > Ryan
> >
> > --
> > - EV Source -
> > Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> > Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
> > E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2004 at 4:59, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> They aren't the highest quality.
I think this is the trapdoor in the scheme. Sure, you can find lots of
cheap Chinese-made bolt cutters at the budget hardware stores. They cost a
LOT less than good quality bolt cutters at the real industrial supply
houses. I'll admit that with these you get a lot for your money by
comparison with the good stuff - but then that's often the case when the
manufacturer is using sweatshop labor to make something. Face it though,
the cost isn't all 20 cent an hour labor; it's design and materials. The
Harbor Freight and similar bolt cutters are not as well designed or made,
nor are they made with the same quality of steel, as the full price stuff.
If you started with bolt cutters that were comparable in quality to the
crimpers you're looking at, I suspect you wouldn't save much money -
especially if you add the value of your time in making them. That's why I
went with a hammer crimper. (I'm also kinda feeble, and I can hammer better
than I can squeeze. <g>) I know the arguments against it, but I've been
pretty satisfied with the hammer crimper.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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To understand the Republican party (or the Democratic party,
for that matter), it is most efficient to look directly at the clients -
or as political scientist Thomas Ferguson would call them, the
"major investors." On that level, the ideological contradictions are
unimportant. Political parties do function as mediating institutions,
only not for voters.
-- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:36:28 +0100, Emil Naepflein
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo,
> > your eff is going to be less than 15%.
>
> The energy to overcome rolling resistance for a a 1000 kg car is about 4
> kWh/100km, the energy to overcome air drag for the Lupo at 60 mph is
> about 8 kWh/100km for a total 12 kWh/100km. 3 l diesel have an energy
> content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an overall efficiency of
> 12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far above 15 %.
Volkswagen says:
A three-cylinder diesel engine with UIS technology that attains the so
far unequalled efficiency level of 45%, combined with the consistent
use of the technologies mentioned above, has made the Lupo 3L TDI the
first mass-produced car in the world with an average consumption of
less than three litres per 100 kilometres.
http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/buster/buster.asp?i=_content/modelle_335.asp
It has a variable-vane supercharger, and computer controlled gearbox.
This is not a car which goes into single-figure fuel economy every
time you press the accellerator.
I'm seriously thinking about buying one if I don't get my EV built
this winter!
Regards
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2004 at 6:55, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Congrats on joining the club!
> -I'm going to replace the battery pack. I need to keep costs as low
> as possible ... Twelve 6v floodeds or two strings of six 12v Exide
> orbitals?
For lowest original and operating cost, there's no contest. Use golf car
batteries. If you drive moderately, they will last longer and give better
range. And they don't really need a balancer or equalizers.
> -A new charger is needed also. It currently has a Lester but I need
> a smart charger that I can plug in when I get home and the pack is ready to
> go in the morning.
If the current one is a working Lestronic, it's fine for flooded batteries
and in fact is smarter than many of your other choices. The basic design of
the Lestronic charge controller is excellent. Lee Hart can help you tweak
it to take better care of the batteries.
>
> -I believe the 8" has the same bolt pattern as the 6.7". If I ever
> find an 8 incher at a bargain price I'd like to swap them out.
Why?
> What do most people use for [battery] heaters?
Insulation. Well insulated batteries will keep themselves warm if the car
is driven daily.
> How much of a difference would a bellypan make in regards to range
> for a low speed EV? Is it worth the extra weight or should I just enclose the
> engine compartment and leave the rest of the belly exposed.
Not that much. Should be a low priority item.
> I also might
> replace the aging Goodyear Invictas with newer LLR tires. It depends on what
> kind of condition the Goodyears are in.
If they are Invicta GLRs (note the R) and they're in decent shape, keep
them. You won't find very many current tires that have lower rolling
resistance. GLRs are noisy and a bit skittish on the handling though.
Finding new LRR tires in Rabbit size isn't easy (or in any size). Nokian
NRT2s are OK; they are reduced rolling resistance tires, but will have more
RR than a true LRR such as the Invicta GLR.
>
> -The trainy is very sloppy.
Boneyards.
> -There is a lot of corrosion on the motor itself.
Rustoleum! Too much hassle to remove the motor unless you know something
needs attention in it or the coupler. But if you're swapping the trans
anyway that's something else again.
BTW, if that's the motor with air intake slots, while you're at it strap
some fine hardware cloth over them to keep gravel from getting inside.
> -Seth included a lot of extra parts in the sale, among them a
> kilowatt meter like you find on the side of a house to track total
> energy used. How do you reset these meters to zero?
Spin them backwards. <g> Actually, there's no reset.
> How do I hardwire it to the pack?
You don't. If it's a household type, it works only on AC. It goes on the
input side of the charger. Most folks put plugs on 'em.
> Also, Japan is awesome! They have such cool cars. Everywhere I
> look, I see great candidates for conversion to EV.
Bring a couple home in your suitcase. <g>
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human
intelligence for long enough to get money from it.
-- Stephen Leacock
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2004 at 14:58, Evan Tuer wrote:
> that attains the so
> far unequalled efficiency level of 45%,
That would no doubt be ^peak^ efficiency. It can't possibly attain that at
all operating speeds and conditions.
That said, I would like to point out that this thread is tending off topic.
It has become a discussion of whether EVs really save energy. The list
charter specifically states:
"The EV Electric Vehicle Discussion Mailing List is intended to provide a
forum to discuss the current state of the art and future direction of
electric vehicles. It is not intended to discuss either EV appropriateness
or comparisons with other transportation primary drive modes such as the
venerable internal combustion engine."
A certain amount of EV skepticism is not unwelcome. It keeps us focused.
But let's keep such threads short, please. At this point it might be a good
idea to take this one to private email.
Thanks gang.
David
EV List Assistant Administrator and Topic Cop
--- End Message ---
