EV Digest 3955
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Importing Li-ions
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) That's it I'm running for president
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bill Dube crimper URL
by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) BB600
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Etek amp draw?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Esarati now a dead issue?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Esarati now a dead issue?
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Etek amp draw?
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Etek amp draw?
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Etek amp draw?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Charging with an Avcon
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: BB600
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) eCycle, was Re: Real or Memorex?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: BB600
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: BB600
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70
percent
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Repairing or replacing one 6v battery
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: eCycle, was Re: Real or Memorex?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any special rules or customs regulation that I need to be aware of
when importing Li-ion batteries from overseas? Does anything change at the
beginning of 2005? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> << I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes, brush leads, and
> commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections between the A1/A2
> lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an Ohm meter today. I
> got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems to be no continuity
> problems there. >>
>
> Don't you need something called a megger for continuity checks?
A 'megger' measures insulation resistance -- resistance values way up in
the megohms. You use it to tell if your insulation is good.
Winding continuity checks can be done with any general-purpose
multimeter. It will tell you if it's connected; but the winding
resistance itself is a tiny fraction of an ohm -- too low to measure
with a general-purpose multimeter. If you want to measure the actual
resistance of the windings in a large motor, you need a milliohmmeter,
which can measure resistances of a thousandth of an ohm.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
my sloagan will be "5kw of solar on every roof and an EV in evry
driveway" :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/12/2004 6:17:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Anybody Out There
got a motor Nick could bolt in and try? >>
I do if you are anywhere near San Diego.
Ben
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Emil and All,
--- Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0800 (PST), jerry
> dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo,
> > your eff is going to be less than 15%.
>
> The energy to overcome rolling resistance for a a
> 1000 kg car is about 4
My EV is 1,000lbs, not 1,000kgs.
> kWh/100km, the energy to overcome air drag for the
> Lupo at 60 mph is
> about 8 kWh/100km for a total 12 kWh/100km. 3 l
My EV only has a 3.5hp motor though I get more from
it, about 5.5 hp and it does 55mph on that. Real life
beats your theory.
> diesel have an energy
> content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an
> overall efficiency of
> 12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far above
> 15 %.
I doubt that but even if it was that at full
throttle, most of the time it isn't at full power
reducing it's eff greatly. Do you understand this?
It doesn't sound like it. Part load eff is really
bad because the engine friction, water pump, cam, oil
pump, alt, ect stays about the same robbing fuel,
power, eff at lower output levels than WOT.
>
> > I'm happy!! ;-) It's not that hard or
> expensive.
> > Been there, done that. Some are 98% eff but more
> > bucks.
>
> I cannot believe that. Give me a reference to such a
> design.
Rich Rudman's PFC charger at it's most eff voltage
though they could be made that eff for other voltages.
And he builds them in his garage!!!
>
> How and with what devices have you measured the
> efficiency?
The best equipment and actual results are posted
often here.
>
> > I'd bet people on this list know more about
> real
> > life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs
> > knows. We have much more experience.
>
> But you don't do controlled scientific experiments.
That's pretty arrogant of you as are many of your
statements. Go back and read a yrs worth of posts if
you want to learn EV's.
Do you drive in a controlled experiment? We do
both, controlled and real life!! Do you? Have you
even driven an EV?
> I would ask the list how many people have really
> achieved 800+ cylces.
> As you have mentioned Trojan below, even Trojan
> doesn't specify so many
> full cycles for their batteries.
No one does full discharge cycles as it would kill
lead batts within 50-100 cycles as most other batts.
Don't you know that?. I'm talking about 50-80%
discharge cycles.
>
> > That's sad!!!! We have very fast Karman Ghia
> EV
> > conversions that do 100wt-hrs/mile. They can't
> beat
> > that?
>
> The above numbers are for a real drive cycle in
> traffic.
> At what total weight and what speed?
Yes, speed as needed up to 80+ mph but can go
faster. Mostly a mix of city, freeway though in the
mountains. And it will beat most ICE's in a drag race!
I believe his is from the wall socket. Weight, a
guess is about, under 2,000 lbs.
>
> > Buying RE, hydro, nuke or make your own, the
> net
> > CO2 is Zero. Beat that.
>
> Yes, you *can* do that, but is it really done
> currently?
Yes, as most US EV's are in the west coast where
most power comes from hydro, nuke and increasingly
wind. And some of our peopole do make their own
electricity. But most everyone can buy green power
now.
Hopefully in a couple yrs I'll be producing many,
many megawatts myself.
>
> > Basicly a US gal of diesel will make 10kw-hr
> of
> > electricity or 16 shaft hp-hr at wide open
> throttle.
>
> 10 KW is 13,6 hp
Duh!! There is an eff loss which you seem not to
notice. But transmissions, accessory, internal losses,
ect are much higher on the diesel.
>
> > There were but they crushed or shipped them.
> The
> > EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would easily with 100-160 mile
> > range and 80mph.
>
> You saw the statement from Toyota?
They lie as the other car companies do. Except the
EV-1, they are not built from scratch EV's rather
conversions of other models and the same problems our
conversions have unlike mine, designed, built as an EV
making eff a lot higher.
All cars are niche markets!! EV's can easily meet
85% of driving needs now. If you add a small rarely
used gen that goes up to 95%.
There is no reason a good 100 mile range, 80 mph
EV can't be built for under $15,000 except Detroit,
ect refuses to build them.
And for another $10,000, range can go to 200-250
miles very soon as Li-ions come down in price at the
rate they are now.
>
> Your car probably wouldn't be allowed to run on road
> here in europe. ;-)
Why, it's faster acceleration than many euro cars,
trucks!! For $3,000 more, $4,000 total it could go 80
mph for 70+ miles or 65 mph at 100 miles.
>
> > I use batts, Trojan T105's that cost 1/2 the
> > Optima, about 1,000 cycles life, have 2 times the
> cap
> > and need only 8 of them.
>
> Trojan specifys 438 LEU's for the T-105. $60/438 =
> 14 ct/kWh
>
> You Trojan tell that 1.000 cycles are no problem. I
> am sure they would
> be happy for marketing. ;-)
With good charging, not abusing them they get that
quite often, some a fair amount more.
Even at $.14kwhr batt cost you say, that is only
$.014/mile for me, far less than I said at $.03/mile.
No?
>
> > If you think EV's are costly losers, why are
> you on
> > this list?
>
> I don't think they are costly loosers. But I think
> they aren't ready for
> primetime because of a lot of factors. This is also
> the
They work quite well for us. If the money spent on
ICE cars were to be used to design, make good EV's,
they would beat the pants off ICE's.
And the addition of a generator of 6kw/1,000 lbs
on a 100 mile range EV to be used the few times it's
needed while getting over 100mpg makes them much
better than any ICE and would increase our, your
economic, national security.
You should ask questions rather than state facts
you no little about. We are the best source of real EV
info in the world and don't let bull here. We design,
build, drive more road EV's than anywhere, anyone
else.
Also you seem to listen to corporations that have
other agendas other that the truth about EV's.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Ryan Bohm
Hi Doug and everyone else,
The Bill Dube crimper instructions can be found here:
http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm
Plan on some more detailed pictures of the construction process on my
crimper in the next three or four years :) or sooner hopefully. If
you need any specifics, let me know. I just finished all my crimping
today. I'm so glad I had the crimper.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
========================
Hi Ryan,
Is this the only page? I see no link...
Was the 13mm socket for standard batt. connector (for #4 wire?)
I mean what is the outside diameter of the lug crimped with this tool.
What kind of bolt cutter was used (5/8" bolt cutter or? ...)
Despite the crimped lug pict. which seems round, the outside of the
crimped lug must look like inside the six pan socket, yes?
Also are 3 pans of the socket used on each jaw? I seem to see only two...
I have just been giving a price of 197$ for an 8-10" long crimper for
lug fitting on #10 wire.
I find it, well, extravagant...
But I know nothing about crimper, so I have questions!
Thanks, JCT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emil Naepflein wrote:
> Why do you want to make it so complicated?
Perhaps because it IS?
> The price we pay all contain the costs of exploration, drilling,
> transport, refining, distribution, ...
> If all this would be relevant then wouldn't be the price much higher?
Yes, the price for fuel would be much higher.
And then there's the biggee cost of wars for oil.
The reason our fuel isn't higher priced is this simple conservative mantra:
"Privatize the profits, socialize the costs."
To the extent that costs for energy get paid for by the collective society
in the form of taxes (and they do), then fuel prices remain artificially
low. Big hydro and nuclear electric power producers also have historically
benefitted from this socialization of the costs, and in the case of
nuclear, failing to consider the costs of waste disposal in marketing nuke
power in the '60s as being "too cheap to meter".
-Myles Twete
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--- Begin Message ---
I am really tempted to buy 100-120 of these BB600
Nicad cells to put in my fiero. I realize it wouldn't
be a long range pack but it would be better than a
single string of a dozen yellow tops. And being light
and maintaining performance in cold weather would be
nice (what good is 45 mile range if it drops to 20 in
the winter).
but i am somewhat risk averse...and don't have money
to burn so i wonder :
has anyone actually used a series string of these
batteries with any success ?
It sounds like Jerry may have a short string in his
woody (is that right ?).
What are the issues with them? charging? watering?
lots of interconnects to babysit ? anything else ?
the price is attractive, and it sounds like seth has
some within driving distance of me. so, can anyone
talk me into or out of trying these in my fiero ?
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan and All,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> After a year of planning, preparing, stealing homework time, and
> freezing my rear off, I took the 200sx Electric Conversion out for a
> spin! I'm not a ball-baby, but a few tears of joy were spilt. Wow!
> Driving an electric is so amazingly cool!
Congrats, and welcome to the fun world of driving electric! Isn't it
rewarding, after
working so long and hard on a conversion project, to finally get it on the road
and feel
that electric thrust? I bet you've got the 'EV Grin', big time!
>That Zilla delivers! I can't
>imagine what a Z2K would be like.
Yes, Zillas, whether Z1K or the incredible Z2K, are the best DC motor
controllers you can
buy for your street or race EV, bar none! My original 1400 amp Godzilla
controller has
survived everything I've thrown at it from extreme street driving to full-on
drag racing,
now going on 9 years with not a single controller failure, ever! It's powered
a single 9"
ADC at 180V, a single 11" Kostov from 240V-336V, and currently jams the juice
to twin 8"
Warfields with battery packs ranging from 216V-288V. Motors, transmissions,
drivelines, and
axles have been destroyed by its might, and even with risky controller bypass
schemes, the
Godzilla has always been the one component that's been bullet proof.
See Ya....John Wayland
Zilla powered since '97
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pretty nice looking design, so far! If you're going for hard-core
acceleration, LiIon is probably not the best choice for the
high-output accel pack. They generally dislike heavy, high-amp draws
such as what you get with hard acceleration. For acceleration,
especially hard acceleration, you need something that can belt out
huge numbers of amps without cooking itself.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of a hybrid pack but I
would use lead-acids like maybe Exide Orbitals for the accel pack and
the lithium or nickel batteries for range. Lead-acid takes hard, deep
discharge like a champ, and if you keep the depth of discharge on the
lead acid pack down to something like 30 - 50% you'll see a much
longer life-span than normal.
Long pack life is kind-of iffy with the lithium batteries. Certainly
in things like laptops and such they tend to only last a couple of
years. Larger, better made units may well last longer, but know one
knows by how much.
NiMH I think generally lasts about twice as long as PbA, but I think
you can get more out of it if you optimize charging and balancing and
maintain a safe minumum depth of discharge. NiCd can last damn near
forever, especially the flooded ones. At least as of a few years ago,
taken over the life of the batteries, NiCd was the cheapest because
of it's long life. I don't know how the current crop of NiMH and
Lithium units might change that comparison.
With any of the above, if you want maximum potential life-span, you
need a proper battery management system with at least single battery
monitoring and balancing and better yet single cell. There are
several folks on list who can either help you design a proper
management system or sell you one/build you one.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All the manual says is 330 amps for 30 seconds. I sure would like to know
the max continous amp draw this motor can handle? Lawrence Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Esarati has changed their name to Evader. Their new website is:
www.evader.us. Their primary motivation for the name change seems to be to
try to hide their shady background as a perpetual vaporware company and a
bunch of hucksters and shysters who apparently took deposits for orders but
then never delivered any product and never returned customers' deposit
money. They certainly have a poor track record, so one can only hope they
do better in their new reincarnation as Evader. Pretty ironic name though,
as they do indeed seem to be trying to "evade" something -- namely their
past history.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 3:50 AM
Subject: Esarati now a dead issue?
Current discussion made me look for previously active links - do these
guys have
a new site or have they finally admitted defeat and given up "gathering
investors"? Latest news in a search tonight came up with a July 2002 deal
with
Chinese manufacturers.
--- End Message ---
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Congratulations Ryan!
You're making me want to convert the Supra
that's sitting in my driveway....
( must resist.... must resist.... no money... )
Be sure to take some photos and get it in the EV album....
Regards
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Charles for telling it like it is. I love this list for it's
brutal honesty. After being in the industry for over ten years I can
smell these new companies from a mile away. My BS detector has been
finely honed.
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
P.O. Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
Esarati has changed their name to Evader. Their new website is:
www.evader.us. Their primary motivation for the name change seems to be to
try to hide their shady background as a perpetual vaporware company and a
bunch of hucksters and shysters who apparently took deposits for orders but
then never delivered any product and never returned customers' deposit
money. They certainly have a poor track record, so one can only hope they
do better in their new reincarnation as Evader. Pretty ironic name though,
as they do indeed seem to be trying to "evade" something -- namely their
past history.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 3:50 AM
Subject: Esarati now a dead issue?
Current discussion made me look for previously active links - do these
guys have
a new site or have they finally admitted defeat and given up "gathering
investors"? Latest news in a search tonight came up with a July 2002 deal
with
Chinese manufacturers.
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, the Etek is rated for 130 amps continuous. I would highly
recommend installing a fan on the back blowing across the brushes for
longevity.
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
P.O. Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
All the manual says is 330 amps for 30 seconds. I sure would like
to know the max continous amp draw this motor can handle? Lawrence
Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ETEK manual shows a 6HP continuous max rating.
Presumably this is at 48v.
According to their curves, 6HP => 10in*lb => 105amps.
I've also heard/read(?) that the motor is spec'd for 8HP continuous at 48v.
This would be 160in*lb and about 137amps.
Specs are at 75degF (motor temp?).
In my case, I have run my ETEK on my outboard motor with continuous current
for 10minutes or more of nearly 150amps with approx. 33v delivered from
twin-T-105 strings as a 36v pack.
I'd say the specs are achievable if you keep the motor cool. I force cool
air axially through my ETEK with a 7inch Papst 48v muffin fan attached to
an aluminum shroud with all gaps between motor/shroud and shroud/fan
sealed. With this arrangement the ETEK gets only warm to the touch at
150amps--along with a nice warm breeze out of the motor cowling... ;^>
Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Zappylist
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 12/12/2004 10:19:24 AM
> Subject: Etek amp draw?
>
> All the manual says is 330 amps for 30 seconds. I sure would like to
know
> the max continous amp draw this motor can handle? Lawrence
Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
interesting - have you got a picture of your cooling system
i'll send you a picture of my dangerous etek trike in exchange for you to laugh
at (chassis re built since last weeks crash)
reb
MYLES ANTHONY TWETE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The ETEK manual shows a 6HP continuous max rating.
Presumably this is at 48v.
According to their curves, 6HP => 10in*lb => 105amps.
I've also heard/read(?) that the motor is spec'd for 8HP continuous at 48v.
This would be 160in*lb and about 137amps.
Specs are at 75degF (motor temp?).
In my case, I have run my ETEK on my outboard motor with continuous current
for 10minutes or more of nearly 150amps with approx. 33v delivered from
twin-T-105 strings as a 36v pack.
I'd say the specs are achievable if you keep the motor cool. I force cool
air axially through my ETEK with a 7inch Papst 48v muffin fan attached to
an aluminum shroud with all gaps between motor/shroud and shroud/fan
sealed. With this arrangement the ETEK gets only warm to the touch at
150amps--along with a nice warm breeze out of the motor cowling... ;^>
Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Lawrence Rhodes
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ; Zappylist
> Date: 12/12/2004 10:19:24 AM
> Subject: Etek amp draw?
>
> All the manual says is 330 amps for 30 seconds. I sure would like to
know
> the max continous amp draw this motor can handle? Lawrence
Rhodes.........
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point, both crude oil and coal are too valuable to be burned.
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lightning Ryan wrote:
>
> >You eventually end up with a world that not only doesn't need, but doesn't
> >have any desire to take part in dirty risky and unnecessary acts like
> >minning or drilling for fossil fuels.
>
> I don't think we'd get rid of mining and drilling altogether, because
> petroleum is used in so many other things besides being burned as fuel.
> What we would accomplish, it seems, is to reduce the mining and drilling to
> the level of retrieving only enough oil for those other manufacturing
> processes, thus vastly the number of years that the existing oil is
> available.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Tim, The talking AVCON stations report the following:* total charging time
for that specific charging instance.* total kWh delivered since the station
was last reset, to the nearest kWh. If you want to find out how many kWh were
delivered during your charging session, you need to first press the Stop button
to have it report the last reading, or do a momentary short charging session
(like a couple seconds), and listen for the kWh reading as a starting point for
your real charging session. BR,Ed Thorpehaving used ICS-200 AVCON stations
since 1998.--- On Sun 12/12, TiM M < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From: TiM
M [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:12:40
-0800 (PST)Subject: Charging with an AvconI got the PFC in and charging, I was
pushing 32amps into my battery pack at work yesterday. Sweet.The charging
station talks, when you connect the plugit tells you the time and says charging
started. Whenyou hit the stop button it says!
charge ended, thetime, how long the charger was charging and then ittells you
the KWH, the problem is the charger isgiving me a number like 10,070KWH. Is it
supposed totell you the power consumed during the charge, or isthis a
cumulative # ow watts the charger has put out?Is there some way to reset this
number? One more question about this, I sent off myapplication to the DMV
(California) for a publiccharging station sticker, can I get ticketed
forcharging at a public station before I get the
sticker?TiM__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new
My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
About the Toyota RAV4 EV sales:
--On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 jerry dycus wrote:
There were but they crushed or shipped them. The EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would
easily with 100-160 mile range and 80mph.
You saw the statement from Toyota?
Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. We appreciate your
interest in the RAV4 Electric Vehicle (EV). We discontinued sales of the RAV4
EV due to low sales levels. As a result, no business case could be made for
continuing sales of the RAV4 EV at these volumes. We believe that advances in
hybrid technology and other advanced systems have a much greater potential for
the environment and Toyota.
--- On Sun 12/12, Emil Naepflein wrote:
This means that electric cars are not ready for prime time. They have chances
in some niche markets. An of course, they are of interest for hobbiests like
you and me, because we can build something cheaply from used parts and costs
are not that critical.
Folks,
The RAV4 EV was not "discontinued" "due to low sales levels." The RAV4 EV was a
limited production vehicle, and when Toyota decided to sell some to the general
public in California, they were basically building out and liquidating their
remaining inventory of about 300 vehicles. Some sources from Toyota expressed
that they felt this might be 2 years worth of sales, but instead managed to
sell out in 8 months, and still has a waiting list.
Again, Toyota and the other automakers have created wonderful EVs, but they
have fought hard to undermine the EV's success. There is a demand for EVs, but
the automakers don't want to support a product which doesn't require much
maintenance or other additional services (which is where they make their money).
BR,
Ed Thorpe
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat and All,
--- Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am really tempted to buy 100-120 of these BB600
> Nicad cells to put in my fiero. I realize it
> wouldn't
> be a long range pack but it would be better than a
> single string of a dozen yellow tops. And being
> light
> and maintaining performance in cold weather would be
> nice (what good is 45 mile range if it drops to 20
> in
> the winter).
Being light, able to deeply discharge them without
damage to 95%, their stiff voltage, lack of Puerket
losses, 20+ yr life, ability to take abuse, full power
when cold does seem to be a good alt to YT's or
Orbitals and costs are about the same to buy, lack of
regs needed, make them 1/4 the cost over 20 yrs.
The only thing is watering all thse cells so get a
good charger to avoid watering so much and place them
for easy service. I watered my SAFT ni-cads about 1x
per month but didn't have a good charger and
overcharged, abused them.
>
> but i am somewhat risk averse...and don't have money
> to burn so i wonder :
Compared to YT's, the cost is about the same but
last 4-6 times longer life. YMMV.
>
> has anyone actually used a series string of these
> batteries with any success ?
>
> It sounds like Jerry may have a short string in his
> woody (is that right ?).
No, the E woody uses T105's.
I use SAFTs on my trikes as they are 14amphr
units over 30 yrs old. They still put out rated power.
But the BB600's are much higher amps as they are
aircraft starting batts.
I'm thinking about buying some BB's though for my
other projects, trikes for greater range. For long
range, 30 miles, I use 2 packs now of 14amp-hrs. With
1 string of 24vdc nom BB's, range would be about 40
miles.
>
> What are the issues with them? charging? watering?
> lots of interconnects to babysit ? anything else ?
Other than not overcharging them, easily done with
experience and a timer and watering them, not bad. Use
Belvue type spring washers mine came with and the
interconnects are rarely a problem, tighten every 6
months just to be sure.
>
> the price is attractive, and it sounds like seth has
> some within driving distance of me. so, can anyone
> talk me into or out of trying these in my fiero ?
>
> ~fortunat
If you were going to use Orbitals, Yt's, I'd go
with the BB's. Not quite as many amps for racing, but
close. And range in summer about the same and twice
theirs, faster acceleration in the winter.
And you can sell them if needed for about what
you paid for them. Try that with YT's!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
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--- Begin Message ---
(and while we're at it, let's get that hybrid
bike from eCycle).
eCycle state straight-up that they got only enough funding to design and
prototype the hybrid motorcycle, but they didn't yet find the additional
money to put it into production.
It is a dream of theirs that had to be put on the back burner while they
work on the products, (such as electronically Commutated BLDC
Motor/Generators (CMG)), and on the customers/ orders, that will will bring
in the revenue short and medium term. I saw the now dismantled hybrid bike
when I was there in November. More importantly, I saw the realization of
ideas and improvements they had talked to me about in the previous year, and
picked up the MG3-36 I had ordered to build a 14KW generator with a Honda
GX670 V-twin 24HP engine. For example, I saw the triple stack high power
series motor/generators, solid slot windings for ultra-low resistance, and
the CMG motors, and met the team of people that are making it happen. If
they had more resources, or can soon get a break with large orders from an
OEM customer, development could go faster. In the past, they had to
disappoint some customers with the time it took to deliver, particularly
specials. They were asked to develop too many one-of-a-kind items at the
same time, that tied up their resources without bringing in much revenue.
With experience, they have become more realistic and focused, and less
willing to do this - for their own good and for their customers' ultimately.
eCycle have increased the range and performance of products ready to produce
as customers order them, with some in stock. I feel they are making good
progress, as well as unique products I have used to good advantage.
Plug:
If anyone on the list would like to construct a compact, efficient,
range-extender generator, I would be pleased to arrange for the supply of an
eCycle generator unit, such as a 15 pound MG-36 or MG-48, that can typically
provide about 4.5KW of DC power at the battery pack voltage. I will also
provide some advice and consultation, to improve the likelyhood of success,
and can offer other parts, such as a suitable 3-phase rectifier bridge to
work with it, or parts kits.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Earlier I wrote:
It would be unfair to compare the efficiency of an ICE at the gas
pump to the efficiency of an EV at the power plant.
Emil wrote:
So you agree that at this point the difference in emissions is not very
large, or the EV even has an disadvantage?
At that point, and if you assume an average USA fuel mix for
electricity, an efficient ICE (my preference is a Toyota Prius) might
actually be more efficient. However, this is unfair to do. They don't
pump gasoline out of the ground like they dig coal out of the ground
(remembering that coal is the largest source of electricity in the
USA). If you go from source (crude oil well or coal mine) to the road
I'm pretty sure the EV will win.
If you move to my neck of the woods the EV is both cleaner and more
energy efficient (about 2% coal power, over 80% hydroelectric).
Crude oil is not
gasoline or diesel and my EV is fueled by PbO2, Pb, and H2SO4.
Yes, the easiest way to get peace of mind is to ignore this all
together. ;-)
I'm not suggesting this be ignored Emil. I'm suggesting an equal
comparison. If we want to compare *vehicle* efficiency we start at an
electrical outlet or gas station (start at the vehicle). If we want
to compare *source* efficiency we have to start at the the energy
source.
Neon
"Like dreams, statistics are a form of wish fulfillment." (Jean Baudrillard)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*nod* I've been thinking seriously about replacing the Genesis pack in
the Prizm with 250 of these. Weight would be about the same, and
although it's 38ah vs. 52ah, it's really 38ah vs 42ah (perkeuret on the
Hawkers). No wait, 37ah vs 33.6ah (using the never hit 20% rule of Pba).
So technically speaking it's a better battery.
The only flaw is the height and watering. In order to put them into a
Prizm one would have to either lower the battery tray a few inches (and
risk grounding out) or put them in the trunk (which would make the car
way tail-heavy and lose the trunk). I suppose if I had an S10 I could
make this work, but the flaw of the S10 is that it only carries two
people, not four.
Chris
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
I am really tempted to buy 100-120 of these BB600
Nicad cells to put in my fiero. I realize it wouldn't
be a long range pack but it would be better than a
single string of a dozen yellow tops. And being light
and maintaining performance in cold weather would be
nice (what good is 45 mile range if it drops to 20 in
the winter).
but i am somewhat risk averse...and don't have money
to burn so i wonder :
has anyone actually used a series string of these
batteries with any success ?
It sounds like Jerry may have a short string in his
woody (is that right ?).
What are the issues with them? charging? watering?
lots of interconnects to babysit ? anything else ?
the price is attractive, and it sounds like seth has
some within driving distance of me. so, can anyone
talk me into or out of trying these in my fiero ?
~fortunat
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used 42 cells in series for my boat (shameless plug). But I don't
have a lot of cycles on them as I can't boat that often.
Seth
On Dec 12, 2004, at 12:13 PM, Fortunat Mueller wrote:
I am really tempted to buy 100-120 of these BB600
Nicad cells to put in my fiero. I realize it wouldn't
be a long range pack but it would be better than a
single string of a dozen yellow tops. And being light
and maintaining performance in cold weather would be
nice (what good is 45 mile range if it drops to 20 in
the winter).
but i am somewhat risk averse...and don't have money
to burn so i wonder :
has anyone actually used a series string of these
batteries with any success ?
It sounds like Jerry may have a short string in his
woody (is that right ?).
What are the issues with them? charging? watering?
lots of interconnects to babysit ? anything else ?
the price is attractive, and it sounds like seth has
some within driving distance of me. so, can anyone
talk me into or out of trying these in my fiero ?
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is you car? Battery type and voltage?
Mike G.
My EV is 1,000lbs, not 1,000kgs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So driving the Elec-Trak this weekend (6 6v T105's) I noticed that one
of my monitor lights was going on (indicating that a pair of 6v
batteries had gone below 10.9 volts). Not good, especially since the
pack meter read in the green, and the tractor was running normally. Head
for home.
Got home (with the light on even under light drive) and checked the
pack. 5 of 6 were in the 6.2 to 6.3 range, sixth was at 3.9 volts right
after driving. After 5 minutes it came back up to about 5.9 volts and
sat there.
Looks like a stinker battery. The water was a bit low in one of the
cells (rest of pack is about right) so I covered the plates and put the
whole pack on a charge. Right now the front two batteries are "full"
(green light, at 14.7 volts) and the rear 4 are coming up (14.4 on one
pair and somewhat less on the stinker).
Question is this: The battery doesn't seem to have reversed, otherwise
the voltage would have stayed <4 volts and not come back to 6. Still
it's low. Should I replace it, put it on it's own charge for a day or
two, or any other suggestions for bringing it back in line with the rest
of the pack?
The pack itself is about 5-6 years old (has it been that long) and came
from a golf cart world as used batteries. Most of this time (the past 4
years) they have been charged using the solar shed so always had a nice
full charge.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(and while we're at it, let's get that hybrid
bike from eCycle).
eCycle state straight-up that they got only enough funding to design
and prototype the hybrid motorcycle, but they didn't yet find the
additional money to put it into production.
It is a dream of theirs that had to be put on the back burner while
they work on the products, (such as electronically Commutated BLDC
Motor/Generators (CMG)), and on the customers/ orders, that will will
bring in the revenue short and medium term.
I guess my problem with them is that they plaster such a beautiful
electric motorcycle on the front of their website with endless promises
about when it will hit production. First it was a BEV. Then it was a
Hybrid. Either way the product was exciting as hell IF it worked.
They should have either kept the motorcycle as an in-house prototype and
not hyped it on their site, opting instead to show it to potential
investors only. Their perpetual "coming next year" claims when they had
NOTHING concrete to base those claims on is what I dislike about this
company. That kind of hype builds tons of expectation in the public that
remains unfulfilled to this day. Judging from the huge positive
attention I saw at EVS20 for hot EV cycles, and expecially hybrid
cycles, there is definitely funding out there. If ecycle can't find it,
I suspect it is because of problems with their prototype.
If the Hybrid worked as they claimed, this product would have a huge
market. Why would they go to all the trouble to prototype (and hype it
on their site) only to dismantle it? I strongly suspect they experienced
some design problems that prevented the hybrid from operating as
advertised/expected, and thus from getting the investment they need for
production.
I think it's great that they are building nice motors and controllers
now, but I really wanted that bike and was hugely disappointed when it
never materialized. They should change their URL to:
http://noebikehere.com or http://emotorsonly.com
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
