EV Digest 3961
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Automotive execs should read 'State of Fear'
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: (fwd) Re: NEON- Bombarding Transformer Power
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It
Appears
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Anyone with an EV in Fremont, CA?
by Jon Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: WOT: NEON- Bombarding Transformer Power
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: hub motors, where can I find them forsale to the general public?
by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Automotive execs should read 'State of Fear'
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Factory Service Manuals
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) A question of efficiency
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: WOT: NEON- Bombarding Transformer Power
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: WOT: NEON- Bombarding Transformer Power
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: WOT: NEON- Bombarding Transformer Power
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) electric tricycle assist
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Battery smell question, etc.
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
No offense intended Neon, but this is totally off topic, not to mention
that it is a stupid argument that is made.
A popular author pens a poorly written fictional book to forward a view
that goes against global scientific belief. Big deal. Since when do we
look to popular fiction authors to define scientific thought and
theories? Maybe we can get Steven King to write a book that ocean
currents really DON'T have an effect on global weather after all. It
would be about as stupid.
I know this book fits your "screw the tree-huggers" world view, Neon,
but PLEASE keep this nonsense off the EVDL. Global warming is a reality
that the VAST majority of scientists all over the world are convinced is
a reality, not due to nebulous predictions of doom, but due to hard
measurable facts such as polar ice cap melt and changing ocean
temperatures. This is not limited to UN flunkies as is asserted in your
post. Are there scientists who disagree? Of course. You will NEVER see
ALL the scientists agree on ANYTHING. That's just the nature of humans.
If you choose to ignore the overwhelming facts of global warming, you
are of course free to do so, but please keep such obvious and offensive
propaganda off the EVDL.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:24 PM -0500 on 12/15/04, Neon John wrote:
Well I DO have to get some actual work done here and there. You know,
QuickBooks, Excel, Corel, that kind of stuff. yeah, I've tried StarOffice
and GIMP but they're pathetic jokes compared to the real things. I would
NOT have microslob stuff here if I didn't have to.
Funny, that's precisely the reason I use Macs. I have all of those on
my system and its a lovely, stable, imminently tweakable UNIX box at
the same time. No terrible StarOffice or that crap, no GIMP idiocy. I
have Office X and Photoshop CS.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
According to the article, power plants produce twice as many emissions
nationally as the car tailpipes. So even for a BEV, would we be increasing
emissions by using electricity?
Actually, that isn't what they said. The actual text reads:
"Cars and light trucks contribute roughly 20 percent of the carbon dioxide
emitted in the U.S., while power plants burning fossil fuels are
responsible for more than 40 percent of C02emissions."
Keep in mind, the emissions from power plants they are talking about are
for power being used for all purposes, not just transportation. BEVs would
only represent a fraction of that load, thus only a fraction of the
emissions thus still an improvement over ICE tailpipe emissions.
What they are suggesting is that nationally the emissions from conventional
power plants represent a larger pollution problem than ICE tail pipe
emissions. Unfortunately, this does not take into account that much of the
ICE pollution is concentrated in cities, while power plants are usually in
more remote locations. We usually don't get red air days from power
plants, we get them from cars.
I tried to do some quick calculations on this, with just a couple of
minutes research on the web. If you find an error in my math or some bad
data or assumptions, please correct it.
According to the DOE website, in 2003 the United States generated 3,848
billion kilowatthours (Kwh) of electricity.
( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html )
According to the DOT website, in 2002 Americans drove 1,658,640 million
miles in passenger cars and 75,887 million miles in trucks. Combined that
is 1,734,527 million miles.
(
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2003/html/table_01_32.html)
Assuming average of 3 miles per kilowatt hour, 578,175 million kilowatt
hours of power would be needed to power these vehicles if they were all
BEVs. That is about 15% of the current power output of the US. 15% of the
power plant's 40% share of the C02 emissions would only 6% of the total for
the US, or less than one third of current ICE tailpipe emissions.
Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in the Niles area of Fremont, CA and I'd love to see an honest to
goodness EV. Is there anyone with one in my area?
-Jon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also not in these calculations is all the electricity used to refine
gasoline. In California, it is the largest industrial user of
electricity.
Marc
On Dec 15, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
According to the article, power plants produce twice as many emissions
nationally as the car tailpipes. So even for a BEV, would we be
increasing
emissions by using electricity?
Actually, that isn't what they said. The actual text reads:
"Cars and light trucks contribute roughly 20 percent of the carbon
dioxide emitted in the U.S., while power plants burning fossil fuels
are responsible for more than 40 percent of C02emissions."
Keep in mind, the emissions from power plants they are talking about
are for power being used for all purposes, not just transportation.
BEVs would only represent a fraction of that load, thus only a
fraction of the emissions thus still an improvement over ICE tailpipe
emissions.
What they are suggesting is that nationally the emissions from
conventional power plants represent a larger pollution problem than
ICE tail pipe emissions. Unfortunately, this does not take into
account that much of the ICE pollution is concentrated in cities,
while power plants are usually in more remote locations. We usually
don't get red air days from power plants, we get them from cars.
I tried to do some quick calculations on this, with just a couple of
minutes research on the web. If you find an error in my math or some
bad data or assumptions, please correct it.
According to the DOE website, in 2003 the United States generated
3,848 billion kilowatthours (Kwh) of electricity.
( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html )
According to the DOT website, in 2002 Americans drove 1,658,640
million miles in passenger cars and 75,887 million miles in trucks.
Combined that is 1,734,527 million miles.
(
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/
2003/html/table_01_32.html)
Assuming average of 3 miles per kilowatt hour, 578,175 million
kilowatt hours of power would be needed to power these vehicles if
they were all BEVs. That is about 15% of the current power output of
the US. 15% of the power plant's 40% share of the C02 emissions would
only 6% of the total for the US, or less than one third of current ICE
tailpipe emissions.
Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A) the 76 billion mile is for 6 wheelers, it's about another trillion
miles for light trucks.(wrong row, I think)
B) figure on fewer miles per kWh after power line, charger and battery
efficiencies (2 miles, 1.5 miles/kWh?)
Seth
On Dec 15, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
According to the article, power plants produce twice as many emissions
nationally as the car tailpipes. So even for a BEV, would we be
increasing
emissions by using electricity?
Actually, that isn't what they said. The actual text reads:
"Cars and light trucks contribute roughly 20 percent of the carbon
dioxide emitted in the U.S., while power plants burning fossil fuels
are responsible for more than 40 percent of C02emissions."
Keep in mind, the emissions from power plants they are talking about
are for power being used for all purposes, not just transportation.
BEVs would only represent a fraction of that load, thus only a
fraction of the emissions thus still an improvement over ICE tailpipe
emissions.
What they are suggesting is that nationally the emissions from
conventional power plants represent a larger pollution problem than
ICE tail pipe emissions. Unfortunately, this does not take into
account that much of the ICE pollution is concentrated in cities,
while power plants are usually in more remote locations. We usually
don't get red air days from power plants, we get them from cars.
I tried to do some quick calculations on this, with just a couple of
minutes research on the web. If you find an error in my math or some
bad data or assumptions, please correct it.
According to the DOE website, in 2003 the United States generated
3,848 billion kilowatthours (Kwh) of electricity.
( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html )
According to the DOT website, in 2002 Americans drove 1,658,640
million miles in passenger cars and 75,887 million miles in trucks.
Combined that is 1,734,527 million miles.
(
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/
2003/html/table_01_32.html)
Assuming average of 3 miles per kilowatt hour, 578,175 million
kilowatt hours of power would be needed to power these vehicles if
they were all BEVs. That is about 15% of the current power output of
the US. 15% of the power plant's 40% share of the C02 emissions would
only 6% of the total for the US, or less than one third of current ICE
tailpipe emissions.
Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, I find this Unix - Linux - MacOS - UltraGeek thread interesting too,
but it's WAY off topic, and it's gone on a bit too long. Please take it to
private email.
Thanks,
David
EV List Assistant Admin & Topic Cop
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
Hub motors for an electric bicycle? Here's what I know of ebike hub motors:
Danny Doris sells the Go-Hub kit in the USA (and to Canada) at
Largoscooters, http://www.largoscooters.com
- FWD brushless hub motors in wheels, well put together kits, I have one of
these. 400 W motors at 36 V, but can be run at 48 V for 500 W.
Joshua Goldberg sells the X-lyte (Crystalyte) hub motors in Canada and the
USA (located in Ontario), http://www.evsolutions.net
- FWD or RWD brushless hub motors, with or without wheels, arranging
purchase and shipping can sometimes be daunting and take awhile, but he does
get you what you order, eventually. If you enjoy long e-mail conversations
and have a lot to learn then talk to Joshua. I have a dual speed motor from
Joshua. His motors can be 400 W or 500 W like the Go-Hubs, but he also is
introducing a 750 W motor.
Craig Spanza sells the Wilderness Energy hub motors in Canada (Alberta),
http://www.itselectric.ca
- As above, 400 W and 500 W but in both brushed and brushless models.
The above are all Chinese hub motors, may all be made by the same
manufacturer(s). Different controllers are available at different voltages
and current ratings, controllers provided seem to change on a monthly basis.
These motors can take many different voltages, so you get more power and
speed with higher voltage, and more torque if the controller current rating
is not limiting.
There are others, like the Bionx EPS hub motor kit, a low powered but
sophisticated (cruise control and regen with handlebar display) hub motor
from Canada (Quebec, http://www.eps-system.com), the Heinzmann hub motor kit
from Germany (a few dealers in Canada and the US sell the Heinzmann, but it
is more expensive and more rare, it is geared, has more torque and is more
noisy) and others?
Anyway, these are the most well known and used hub motors in North America.
Besides hub motors there is the Currie USPD drive that mounts to and drives
the rear wheel, and the Burro-ZVO motor-drive system that mounts closer to
the pedals and drives through the gears.
If you want to talk to people about power-assisted bicycles and electric hub
motors (we also discuss ICE motors for power-assist) then come on over to
the Power-Assist discussion group, http://www.power-assist.org.
David
S. David Lalonde / davidl @ soopah.com
Liion Power Products Inc. / http://www.liionpower.com
Li-ion & NiMH batteries for electric cycles & more!
http://groups.yahoo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Hoehne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:49 PM
Subject: hub motors, where can I find them forsale to the general public?
> I've been searching for a few weeks now. I've found several companies
claiming to make such devices, I've seen pictures of many prototypes for
years... But now that I'd like to aquire some, I've found that to be the
problem. If anyone here could point me to a supplier, that'd be great.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Easy, folks, let's not start another flame war here on the list. Especially
not over something off-topic.
That said, though it's off topic, it may be worth reading. Even if you are
mostly persuaded that climate change is a reality, you need to be familiar
with the literature (and "literature" ;-) which contends otherwise. In your
advocacy work with EVs, you will be faced with people who have read this and
want your take on it.
With specific reference to NJ's post: when you're uncertain whether
something is really on topic, it's usually a better idea to post a link to
the article, rather than quoting it to the list.
(BTW, consider the source of this one: The Detroit Daily News. ;-)
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at the watt rating of the devices... The 12 volt units I have seen draw
5 amps of 12 volts. That is only 60 watts.
The unit I had in my Fiesta was drawing 5 amps of 48 volts before it rusted
out from sitting in a puddle last year. 240 watts barely made a difference
in the interior but helped clear the windows slowly. I would love to get one
(or two) of those 2000 watt units to clear the windows in a hurry and keep
me toasty warm.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
> Richard-
>
> We get a little different "frost" out here. Because those units are
> known for doing very little. At least in the Northern parts of the USA.
> It hit -28C in my driveway last year. One whole week was below -18C.
>
> Also, some of the 12V variants sold here seem to burn up 12V wiring
> harnesses, and would probably overstress a DC-DC converter, if you had
> a big one at all.
>
> Seth
> On Dec 15, 2004, at 1:10 AM, richard ball wrote:
>
> > i don'tknow if this is any help but here in the uk you can buy 12V
> > heater / defroster units for kit cars for around �30 and they work
> > great i've used them before.
> >
> > Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I use a "Vidal Sasoon" hair dryer.
> > Large, higher quality hair dryers
> > tend to be quieter than small ones. It runs well off my 96 Volt pack.
> > Most hair dryers, popcorn poppers, etc. have motors that run fine on
> > DC. I switch it off by pulling its plug out of a standard outlet
> > that's mounted in the cab -- I taped up the dryer's own switch because
> > it would get fried otherwise. Use two hair dryers if it's desperately
> > cold out -- It's amazing how great that hot air feels if you pump it
> > directly inside your coat :)
> >
> > If the heat doesn't keep up with the window fog, crack open a window
> > to let out some moisture.
> >
> > Robb
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:30:28 -0600, Robert MacConnell wrote:
> >>
> >> Greetings fellows, I'd be interested in hearing about what folks are
> >> using
> >> to heat and particularly defrost their vans. My van is currently
> >> equipped
> >> with it's original(?) German made gasoline heater which doesn't work.
> >> I'd
> >> like to replace it with something electric. Thanks for any input!
> >> Robert
> >> MacConnell.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Richard
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always gotten my Nissan/Datsun manuals directly from a dealer. I
don't think they've farmed out dead tree distribution like Detroit Inc
has.
John
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:32:06 -0700, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Anybody know of a source for Factory Services Manuals besides helminc.com?
>I bought the service manual for my EV from them, and I'd like to buy one for
>my ICE car, too (2004 Nissan Quest), but helminc.com doesn't seem to carry
>it. Thanks.
>
>Bill Dennis
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1) Is it possible to lift one brush at a time to measure the 12 volt current
being drawn? Lifting each brush should have the same effect on the speed and
current of the motor. If you lift a brush and NOTHING changes, that brush
was doing NOTHING and the brush rigging needs repaired.
2) Are the pole pieces in series or parallel or a combination? If they are
in series, some might have a short. If they are in parallel, some might be
open. You could test this by putting a few dozen amps of current on the
field for a half hour or so and then measure the temperature of the housing
at each pole. If some are hotter than others, the current is not evenly
distributed and the motor needs to be disassembled for repair.
3) If the motor turns with uneven current or speed, there is a problem with
the armature and it needs to be repaired.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
> It does indeed sound like there is still trouble inside the motor. I
> would expect it to draw more like 30 amps no-load. There are four field
> coils; I wonder if only two are still connected due to your damaged
> terminal.
>
> Note that the voltage you applied doesn't really affect the no-load
> current much. Voltage just changes the speed. The current is the same
> because the torque is the same (i.e. almost zero) in each case.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
richard ball wrote:
> i don'tknow if this is any help but here in the uk you can buy 12V heater /
> defroster units for kit cars for around �30 and they work great i've used
> them before.
I guess that would depend on what one's definition of great is. Those 12V units
are also
sold here in the states. Harbor Freight sells them, as does K Mart, Target,
etc. At a low
12 volts, to keep the current from melting wires and blowing fuses, these small
'assist'
heat-defrosters are limited to around 200 watts, or about 16.5 amps of current
draw. This
is why they can still be plugged into most cigarette lighter sockets and come
with cords
using fine stranded 12 gauge wire.
200 watts of heat is only about 1/8th the level of a typical small
plug-in-the-wall socket
space heater, and also the same fraction of power of a single 1500 watt ceramic
element,
the type that many EVers use in their vehicle's heater to replace the
liquid-warmed heater
core that comes in all ICE vehicles. A single 1500 watt element does a pretty
good job to
make nice heat, but only if Winter temps stay in the 25-40 degree range.
Anything
c-c-colder, and you need to step up to using twin
elements at 3000 watts or so.
200 watts of tepid heat from one of these little 12V devices isn't even close
to what is
needed to get effective heating and or defrosting. It would take seven or eight
of them to
match the heating power of a lone 1500 watt ceramic element, and at that, you'd
be looking
at 12V currents in the 115 - 130 amp range!
The dual element, 3000 watt heater I installed in Red Beastie made awesome
heat, could
easily match the heat output of the truck's original liquid-warmed heater, and
had the
advantage over it of offering instant on heat. Once the cab temperature rose to
melt-down
heat levels, selecting the lower output of a single element kept you warm and
toasty even
on low 20 degree icy days. The single element heater in Blue Meanie isn't as
aggressive as
what was in the Beastie, but it's such a small car, it has little interior
space to get
warmed up. I find it does a very good job of keeping me and my scared
passengers warm.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For more aggressive heating requirements such as in the more frozen
areas of the planet, it sounds like you need to dedicate a really
significant amount of electrical power to convert to heating needs.
Obviously, effective electric heating elements (ceramic or not) are all
going to require a huge electric draw, one that is sorely needed due to
the usual reduced ranges that most EVs suffer in cold conditions.
Is there anything available or adaptable in a small gas powered heater?
I hear the collective gasp already. Relax. I'm not suggesting we burn
fuel in or vent exhaust into the cockpit. I'm talking about some kind of
heat exchanger that can live under the hood, vent to the exterior, and
burn propane or something for much more efficient heating under the most
extreme cold conditions.
Given that most auto conversions already have a heat exchanger type of
heating system, this seems like a good possibility for an under-the-hood
solution.
I'm sure this has already been done many times, but all I've seen on the
heating suggestion list are high power electric solutions. Wouldn't
these electrons be better served for propulsion? Until I have range to
burn, I hate to use my precious electrons for anything besides moving
me. I don't even use incandescent lighting any more, opting to run
Luxeon clusters for the headlights and super bright LEDs for the tail,
brake and turns.
Is there a fuel based heating solution that might be more effective for
use in extreme cold conditions?
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 59 bug had a gasoline powered heater instead of the heat exchanger on the
exhaust manifold. I did not like it but it helped keep the windows clear.
A noisy, stinking header is not what you want in a clean, quiet EV.
I could suggest investigating a propane furnace something like a camp
trailer or motorhome. They are quieter than the gasoline heater I had, but
not as quiet as a ceramic heater in the original defroster ducting.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
> For more aggressive heating requirements such as in the more frozen
> areas of the planet, it sounds like you need to dedicate a really
> significant amount of electrical power to convert to heating needs.
> Obviously, effective electric heating elements (ceramic or not) are all
> going to require a huge electric draw, one that is sorely needed due to
> the usual reduced ranges that most EVs suffer in cold conditions.
>
> Is there anything available or adaptable in a small gas powered heater?
> I hear the collective gasp already. Relax. I'm not suggesting we burn
> fuel in or vent exhaust into the cockpit. I'm talking about some kind of
> heat exchanger that can live under the hood, vent to the exterior, and
> burn propane or something for much more efficient heating under the most
> extreme cold conditions.
>
> Given that most auto conversions already have a heat exchanger type of
> heating system, this seems like a good possibility for an under-the-hood
> solution.
>
> I'm sure this has already been done many times, but all I've seen on the
> heating suggestion list are high power electric solutions. Wouldn't
> these electrons be better served for propulsion? Until I have range to
> burn, I hate to use my precious electrons for anything besides moving
> me. I don't even use incandescent lighting any more, opting to run
> Luxeon clusters for the headlights and super bright LEDs for the tail,
> brake and turns.
>
> Is there a fuel based heating solution that might be more effective for
> use in extreme cold conditions?
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
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While cruising eBay, I found this item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4510963811&category=34202
He lists a current draw of 200A at 36V to go 35mph - 7+kw to go 35mph is
>200wh/mi, which seems like a lot for city street speeds. Is this typical?
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On Wednesday, December 15, 2004, at 04:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Burning any fuel produces CO2 (gasoline, oil, natural gas, coal, wood,
alcohol, etc.) The more you burn, the more CO2 you make.
That's a bit misleading. Some fuels do not increase atmospheric CO2
when burned. Fuel that comes from biomass (biodiesel, methanol,
alcohol, french fry oil, wood chips) got all of its carbon (the "C" in
CO2) from CO2 out of the air to begin with. When you burn it, you're
just putting back the CO2 that was "borrowed" by the plants used to
make the fuel. There's no net change in the total CO2 in the
atmosphere.
You can also burn fuels that don't contain carbon, such as hydrogen
(the only non-toxic one I can think of offhand).
And we're back where we started, talking about fuel cells. Imagine
that.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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On Wednesday, December 15, 2004, at 11:10 PM, Ken Trough wrote:
Is there anything available or adaptable in a small gas powered
heater? I hear the collective gasp already. Relax. I'm not suggesting
we burn fuel in or vent exhaust into the cockpit. I'm talking about
some kind of heat exchanger that can live under the hood, vent to the
exterior, and burn propane or something for much more efficient
heating under the most extreme cold conditions.
Aircooled VWs and Corvairs use gasoline-burning heaters in cold
climates. More info here:
http://www.espar.com/htm/specials/bn2bn4.htm
We had one in our VW camper. Instant volcanic heat and almost no
gasoline smell.
I still wouldn't have one in my car, but that's just me. Lots of folks
like 'em.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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That's really amazing, David. Over the past 5 or 6 days there have been
hundreds of wildly off-charter posts in the "hydrogen economy" and the
various emissions threads. Not a peep out of you admins. yet when we
chat a little on a just slightly off-topic thread that contains info that
might be useful to other, you pop up outta your burrow. Why is that?
It's really sad that this list has to be this way. Presumably we all have
a common interest in electric vehicles, what this list is supposedly
about. Obviously some of us are at political polar opposites. If this
list could be politics and religion-free then we all could benefit from
the list and no one would take offense.
I know that for some of you the worship of environmental myths is the
closest thing you'll ever come to having a religion. I further understand
that compulsion to give witness to your beliefs. The problem is, this
isn't the place to do it, assuming the charter means anything. Your
belching of dogma is about as welcome to some of us as is a fundie street
preacher getting in our faces.
Perhaps it's too much to ask that this list stick to EVs. After all some
of you are still young enough to have all the answers. (Reminds me of a
bumper sticker: God help me save the world while I'm still young enough to
know it all.) But I'm going to ask anyway. Please take the political and
theological stuff elsewhere. Dave, maybe you could help keep the list
on-charter all the time instead of your current selective effort.
John
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:09:44 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Folks, I find this Unix - Linux - MacOS - UltraGeek thread interesting too,
>but it's WAY off topic, and it's gone on a bit too long. Please take it to
>private email.
>
>Thanks,
>
>David
>EV List Assistant Admin & Topic Cop
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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I second this, a hairdryer running from the pack is quite effective at
keeping the windscreen clear of condensation, if you duct it directly
to the vents. It also melts ice around the wipers quite nicely, which
a normal car heater takes ages to do.
It makes almost no noticeable difference to the inside temperature
though, I combat this with extra clothing :)
In really cold weather I run a fan heater (from the mains) in the car
for 10 minutes before going, that warms things up a bit.
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:46:08 -0800, Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use a "Vidal Sasoon" hair dryer. Large, higher quality hair dryers
> tend to be quieter than small ones. It runs well off my 96 Volt pack.
> Most hair dryers, popcorn poppers, etc. have motors that run fine on
> DC. I switch it off by pulling its plug out of a standard outlet
> that's mounted in the cab -- I taped up the dryer's own switch because
> it would get fried otherwise. Use two hair dryers if it's desperately
> cold out -- It's amazing how great that hot air feels if you pump it
> directly inside your coat :)
>
> If the heat doesn't keep up with the window fog, crack open a window
> to let out some moisture.
>
> Robb
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:30:28 -0600, Robert MacConnell wrote:
> >
> >Greetings fellows, I'd be interested in hearing about what folks are using
> >to heat and particularly defrost their vans. My van is currently equipped
> >with it's original(?) German made gasoline heater which doesn't work. I'd
> >like to replace it with something electric. Thanks for any input! Robert
> >MacConnell.
>
>
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Couldn't you use an inverter with 110vac 1500 watt quartz heater
with some kind of 12vdc fan. Almost any of these small heaters
would pump out a lot of heat.
Just a thought.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: December 16, 2004 1:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
I second this, a hairdryer running from the pack is quite effective at
keeping the windscreen clear of condensation, if you duct it directly
to the vents. It also melts ice around the wipers quite nicely, which
a normal car heater takes ages to do.
It makes almost no noticeable difference to the inside temperature
though, I combat this with extra clothing :)
In really cold weather I run a fan heater (from the mains) in the car
for 10 minutes before going, that warms things up a bit.
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:46:08 -0800, Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use a "Vidal Sasoon" hair dryer. Large, higher quality hair dryers
> tend to be quieter than small ones. It runs well off my 96 Volt pack.
> Most hair dryers, popcorn poppers, etc. have motors that run fine on
> DC. I switch it off by pulling its plug out of a standard outlet
> that's mounted in the cab -- I taped up the dryer's own switch because
> it would get fried otherwise. Use two hair dryers if it's desperately
> cold out -- It's amazing how great that hot air feels if you pump it
> directly inside your coat :)
>
> If the heat doesn't keep up with the window fog, crack open a window
> to let out some moisture.
>
> Robb
>
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:30:28 -0600, Robert MacConnell wrote:
> >
> >Greetings fellows, I'd be interested in hearing about what folks are
using
> >to heat and particularly defrost their vans. My van is currently equipped
> >with it's original(?) German made gasoline heater which doesn't work. I'd
> >like to replace it with something electric. Thanks for any input! Robert
> >MacConnell.
>
>
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Perhaps it's too much to ask that this list stick to EVs.
Perhaps you should lead by example.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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On 16 Dec 2004 at 4:27, Neon John wrote:
> Not a peep out of you admins.
Ah, righteous indignation. <g>
And perhaps not entirely unjustified. Confirming Neon John's suspicions, I
admit: I DON'T use some kind of objective criterion in deciding what's OT
and what's OK. Being human, and a volunteer at this, I read posts and use
my judgement.
There are at least four points that go into that judgement:
- How far off topic is it?
- Is it something that may help us be better EV advocates?
- How long has the thread gone on?
- How much passion is it evoking?
... and probably more that I just can't think of right now. But these are
unquestionably subjective. It's the best I have.
I also have to admit there are some names that I watch more closely than
others, because they've shown themselves to be "frequent offenders." (Trust
me, Neon, this is not bias against you, I just make sure I read all your
posts. Nor are you the only one. In fact, you've dropped further down the
list as you've gotten better at staying on topic. ;-)
Some of these recent discussions he refers to, though indeed rather OT, have
been vaguely connected to EVs or related to issues that we as EV advocates
may have to address when discussing EVs with skeptics (of which there are
some right here).
However, I may be missing something, but I don't see how debates over
computer operating systems, while interesting to some (including me), have
anything at all to do with EVs.
Besides, fair or not, I have to deal with topics I see arise within a
reasonable time frame. I can't monitor the list 24 hours a day. In fact
because of my work I sometimes have to go a few days without reading any
posts, then catch up. For this reason there have been, and will continue to
be, egregiously off topic threads that go on too long. So it goes. Anybody
want to pay me so I can quit my day job and do this full time? <g>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion
Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Here's an interesting electric assist for a tadpole trike.
(I happen to have one)
http://www.greenspeed.us/electric_moto-bob.htm
Seems like a pretty fair deal, since the trailer
alone might run around $300, and people do use
these trailers for touring.
I wonder what the electrical system is like...
aaron
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Nice math Mike , what about night time charging , when power plants have
light loads , If your also figure that if everyone had one EV and most ev's
where charged at night ( most doesn't mean all) when the power companies
are not being over loaded. There are so many street lights in my town , on
some of the roads , when I'm out driving at night I often thing each one
could be a EV charging ,. I often bring this up when talking to the " you
just mover the emissions " people / . Then there's the energy that it takes
to make a new car . A conversion most of the time takes a car with a bad
engine heading for the junk yard. The thing we're up agents is as lee has
said , gas or oil is free energy , . Like somebody with 100k in the bank .
They can work and make money or they can take it out of the bank , ether way
its money , but taking it out of the bank is much easier. But now we're
getting into solar energy.
>
steve clunn
> Assuming average of 3 miles per kilowatt hour, 578,175 million kilowatt
> hours of power would be needed to power these vehicles if they were all
> BEVs. That is about 15% of the current power output of the US. 15% of
the
> power plant's 40% share of the C02 emissions would only 6% of the total
for
> the US, or less than one third of current ICE tailpipe emissions.
>
> Does this sound reasonable?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
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(I sent this e-mail once, and I don't think it went through. I'll try again).
I'm loving driving the 200sx! People I take for rides are having a blast too.
A couple questions, mostly battery ones:
* A distinct chemical smell comes from the Orbitals after (and during) a good,
hard run. What is it? I thought they didn't vent gas? All the batteries are
sitting between 12.23 and 12.39V. That doesn't sound like a damaged battery.
Is this just a break-in smell?
* Can someone give me a good explanation about depth of discharge, and state of
charge? When charging my 144V pack, it should be charged to 14.4V per battery
for 172.8V. When I take the charger off though, it doesn't seem to rest at
that. After about 2 miles of driving, I'm sitting around 150V (after letting
it rest for about an hour that is my measurement). So what is the resting
voltage for a charged Orbital? Won't it be 14.4 - or not? The limit for depth
of discharge is 80% or 20%? Wouldn't 80% discharge on a 14.4V battery be 2.88V
(I know that's not right, but that's what it seems it should be). Obviously, I
need an expert explanation of this all.
* When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up of the
motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise which sounds like it's
coming from the rear end. It only lasts for a very short period during the
acceleration, and then goes away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
The brushes looked broke in when I bought the motor from Bob Boyd. They were
rounded, not flat. What sounds do brushes make, and are they RPM specific?
Could a brush noise be resonating through the drivetrain? Maybe the car
sitting for 8 months is producing some squealy bearings somewhere?
Having fun,
Ryan
BTW, congrats Steve on getting the 300zx going!
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
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