EV Digest 3962
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery smell question, etc.
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: hub motors, where can I find them forsale to the general public?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A question of efficiency
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: electric tricycle assist
by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Leading Authority?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Battery smell question, etc.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Carbon "dating", was: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Battery smell question, etc.
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Carbon "dating", was: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 200sx 0-60 estimates - a friendly little contest
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Anyone with an EV in Fremont, CA?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: 200sx 0-60 estimates - a friendly little contest
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Automotive execs should read 'State of Fear'
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Charging in apartment?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Battery smell questions
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Re: Battery smell questions
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: Anyone with an EV in Fremont, CA?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Was Re: Battery smell question, etc., now: Sounds
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Battery smell question, etc.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Seth , I was always impressed with the job you did on the s 10 , that was
some fine work, I also like your web sit, . Hope These cars are lighter that
the 300zx , 50 mph at 120 amps is more amps that I had hoped for . Its about
the same as my Mazda truck. Still the car is nice with all the extras ,
power everything , and it even talks , keeps saying I'm running out of gas
:-) . Its a 87 and the door sticker say gvwr 3719 lbs ( so what is gvwr?) .
I'll be taking it to the local junk yard to weigh soon .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: The 200sx is alive!!
> nice work ryan. when I get the 240Z done, you, me, and steve clunn
> should get our 240Z, 300ZX and 240SX together for a little
> Datsun-nissan party :) Oh, and John Wayland can come too.
> Congratulations again,
>
> seth
>
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2004, at 1:48 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > After a year of planning, preparing, stealing homework time, and
> > freezing my rear off, I took the 200sx Electric Conversion out for a
> > spin! I'm not a ball-baby, but a few tears of joy were spilt. Wow!
> > Driving an electric is so amazingly cool! It was pretty darn zippy!
> > I was trying to be gentle with things, but the stylus just went crazy
> > dialing in 1000amps on the Palm pilot. That Zilla delivers! I can't
> > imagine what a Z2K would be like.
> >
> > After the excitement of driving it around and taking neighbors for
> > rides (I live in an apartment complex and all my neighbors have kept
> > tabs on the conversion), the reality of battery management hit. Poor
> > Rich is stuck with all my PFC specific questions.
> > I'm just soaking it all up. There are lots of things to still be
> > done, but IT DRIVES!!
> >
> > Thanks so much to *everyone* on this list for all the help, advice,
> > and guidance. There is no way in the world this would have happened
> > if it weren't for all the knowledge and encouragement this list has
> > given me. I hope I can give back some of what I've received.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> > Ryan
> >
> > --
> > - EV Source -
> > Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> > Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
> > E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> '72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough wrote:
> Whenever these numbers are batted around, it's always assumed
> that all
> the cars in the picture are new, state of the art, and ultra low
> emissions. This is obviously not the case in most of America. Even in
> California where emission standards and car tailpipe sniffing are all
> the rage, there are still many thousands (if not millions) of cars on
> the road that smoke and stink to high heaven.
Hi Ken,
You make a good point that I didn't really appreciate for a long time. I
grew up in Los Angeles. I've been on the east coast since 1980. Every time
I visit SoCal I'm just blown away at how many old cars are out there. Here,
my '93 Corolla is considered fairly old. Late '80s cars are rare. Early
'80s are almost non-existent. In SoCal, you can't drive anywhere without
seeing lots of cars made in the '60s, and a few from the '50s. These are
daily drivers. Sure, they are a minority, but I would be surprised if those
classics weren't producing the vast majority of vehicle-based emissions.
Left coast and southwestern (or anyone outside the rust belt) EVers take
note. You can preserve a classic by converting an old car that's in good
shape, and maybe save some money by starting with an older glider. Then do
the world a favor by scrapping the engine instead of selling it. How much
will it actually get you? At what cost to us all?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, December 16, 2004, at 06:47 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
* When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up of
the
motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise which sounds
like it's
coming from the rear end.
It sounds like you are doing it right. Do you also see tire smoke in
the rear view mirror? :)
Having fun,
Ryan
BTW, congrats Steve on getting the 300zx going!
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/15/2004 9:25:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> http://www.itselectric.ca
Check wilderness.com.
Check www.wilderness.com. They often have specials and used. They are in van
nuys Calif.
Larry Cronk 72 Datsun 120v electric truck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 09:54 -0500, Steve Clunn wrote:
> :-) . Its a 87 and the door sticker say gvwr 3719 lbs ( so what is gvwr?) .
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
A vehicleâs GVWR is the maximum weight a vehicle should reach in use,
including the vehicle itself, optional equipment, passengers, cargo and
trailer tongue weight, but not including a trailer. A vehicleâs GVWR is
established by its manufacturer and should not be exceeded for reasons
of safety.
So have the car weighed. Then subtract (by estimate or measuring) the
weight of parts pulled out of the car during conversion (usually about
500 lbs). The difference between the weight and GVWR is how much EV
parts you can add to the car.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steveclunn wrote:
> ( so what is gvwr?) .>
It's the manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating - the maximum the
vehicle can weigh including fluids, passengers, luggage, etc. GAWR is
the Gross Axle Weight Rating and each end of the vehicle should not
exceed the number specified. The GVWR is usually less than the two
GAWRs added together to allow for variations in loading the vehicle.
Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> While cruising eBay, I found this item:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=451096381
1&category=34202
> He lists a current draw of 200A at 36V to go 35mph - 7+kw to go 35mph is
> >200wh/mi, which seems like a lot for city street speeds. Is this typical?
>
Seem high to me also, even for a car. From my experience:
Mini bike, 35 mph @ 36v, 90A,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/439.html
(note: web page lists max speed at 30 mph, later reconfigured to reach 35
mph)
Honda 350, 42 mph @ 36v, 133A,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/518.html
Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 16, 2004, at 1:32 AM, Doug Weathers wrote:
When you burn it, you're just putting back the CO2 that was "borrowed"
by the plants used to make the fuel. There's no net change in the
total CO2 in the atmosphere.
This isn't quite correct. You are not changing the total amount of CO2
in the *system*. You may well alter the balance of CO2 in the
atmosphere versus the CO2 in the ground/plantlife. But then,
petrochemical organic fuels such as gasoline are just carbon stored
underground for a really long time. The ultimate amount of carbon on
the planet doesn't shift appreciably. It's just a matter of where it
winds up.
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. Phone (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. Fax (901) 761-2139
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any hope of saying that if you didn't refine gasoline that excess
energy could be used to push cars around and you wouldn't need to use
gasoline? Somehow (unless someone has done the numbers) that seems too good
to be true. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Geller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Warning: The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It
Appears
Also not in these calculations is all the electricity used to refine
gasoline. In California, it is the largest industrial user of
electricity.
Marc
On Dec 15, 2004, at 7:44 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
According to the article, power plants produce twice as many emissions
nationally as the car tailpipes. So even for a BEV, would we be
increasing
emissions by using electricity?
Actually, that isn't what they said. The actual text reads:
"Cars and light trucks contribute roughly 20 percent of the carbon
dioxide emitted in the U.S., while power plants burning fossil fuels are
responsible for more than 40 percent of C02emissions."
Keep in mind, the emissions from power plants they are talking about are
for power being used for all purposes, not just transportation. BEVs
would only represent a fraction of that load, thus only a fraction of
the emissions thus still an improvement over ICE tailpipe emissions.
What they are suggesting is that nationally the emissions from
conventional power plants represent a larger pollution problem than ICE
tail pipe emissions. Unfortunately, this does not take into account
that much of the ICE pollution is concentrated in cities, while power
plants are usually in more remote locations. We usually don't get red
air days from power plants, we get them from cars.
I tried to do some quick calculations on this, with just a couple of
minutes research on the web. If you find an error in my math or some
bad data or assumptions, please correct it.
According to the DOE website, in 2003 the United States generated 3,848
billion kilowatthours (Kwh) of electricity.
( http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html )
According to the DOT website, in 2002 Americans drove 1,658,640 million
miles in passenger cars and 75,887 million miles in trucks. Combined
that is 1,734,527 million miles.
( http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/
2003/html/table_01_32.html)
Assuming average of 3 miles per kilowatt hour, 578,175 million kilowatt
hours of power would be needed to power these vehicles if they were all
BEVs. That is about 15% of the current power output of the US. 15% of
the power plant's 40% share of the C02 emissions would only 6% of the
total for the US, or less than one third of current ICE tailpipe
emissions.
Does this sound reasonable?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm pretty sure they use a Crystalyte hub motor system,
http://www.crystalyte.com (same as the Go-Hub and EVsolutions hub motors I
mentioned in an earlier post). Ask them what model they use and what the
controller voltage and current limit is.
Sincerely,
David
S. David Lalonde / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Liion Power Products Inc. / http://www.liionpower.com
Li-ion & NiMH batteries for electric cycles & more!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liion_power_products/
http://liionpower.blogspot.com
Ph: 604 880 1928
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron NMLUG-EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<SNIP>
> http://www.greenspeed.us/electric_moto-bob.htm
<SNIP>
> I wonder what the electrical system is like...
<SNIP>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While searching for hub motors, I found this news item:
http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/newscenter/releases/pr_100604.html
Is this guy really an authority on light electric vehicles, or just a pundit?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I'm loving driving the 200sx! People I take for rides are having
> a blast too.
That's great to hear!
> A couple questions, mostly battery ones:
> * A distinct chemical smell comes from the Orbitals after (and
> during) a good, hard run.
If it's coming from the batteries, that's bad! They should only vent
during hard overcharging. They only vent during discharge if there is
serious trouble, like a dead or reversed cell with its electrolyte
boiling.
> All the batteries are sitting between 12.23 and 12.39V.
By "sitting", do you mean this is the no-load voltage after the
batteries have sat with no loading or charging for several hours?
Roughly speaking, 12.0v is dead (0% SOC), and 13.0v is fully charged
(100% SOC) for an AGM. So... charge the pack, and let it sit idle
overnight. In the morning, measure the voltages. They should all be
13.0-13.1v. If any battery is not, it is not fully charged, or are old
and tired, or bad.
After you've driven for a while and come home, let the batteries sit
idle for several hours before charging, and measure the voltages again.
A range like 12.23v to 12.39v is telling you the relative states of
charge of each battery (roughly 23% to 38% SOC). This much variation
would be a bit high; it says the pack is noticeably out of balance
and/or has significant amphour capacity differences between batteries.
> Is this just a break-in smell?
There *is* no break-in smell!
> * Can someone give me a good explanation about depth of discharge,
> and state of charge? When charging my 144V pack, it should be
> charged to 14.4V per battery for 172.8V.
If you only charge to 14.4v/battery, it will take more than 24 hours to
reach "full" -- ok if you have the time. Most people want to finish
quicker, and so charge to a higher voltage -- 14.8v finishes in 8-10
hours, for example. And if you want to equalize, you include a short
time at a still higher voltage at the end -- like 15v for 30 minutes.
> When I take the charger off though, it doesn't seem to rest at
> that. After about 2 miles of driving, I'm sitting around 150V.
> So what is the resting voltage for a charged Orbital?
Just after charging, a lead-acid battery has a "surface" charge. The
voltage will be somewhere between the last charging voltage (14.4-15v)
and the final resting voltage after many hours (12.0-13.0v depending on
state of charge). The voltage during this time is largely meaningless.
> Wouldn't 80% discharge on a 14.4V battery be 2.88V?
No! Not even close. The voltage vs SOC relationship varies with the
type, age, and temperature of the battery, but it is roughly:
13.0v 100% SOC
12.75v 75% SOC
12.5v 50% SOC
12.25v 25% SOC
12.0v 0% SOC
> * When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up
> of the motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise
> which sounds like it is coming from the rear end. It only lasts
> for a very short period during the acceleration, and then goes
> away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
Good brushes make a soft "shhhhh" or "screee" sound. High brush
pressures and high currents make the noise louder. The pitch is related
to speed, but does not precisely change with speed.
Other noises will come from the internal fan, and the transmission and
differential. These noises are mostly a "whoosh" or a "whine" with a
distinct peak pitch (like a whistle) that changed precisely with speed.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> When you burn it, you're just putting back the CO2 that was "borrowed"
>> by the plants used to make the fuel. There's no net change in the
>> total CO2 in the atmosphere.
>
>This isn't quite correct. You are not changing the total amount of CO2
>in the *system*. You may well alter the balance of CO2 in the
>atmosphere versus the CO2 in the ground/plantlife. But then,
>petrochemical organic fuels such as gasoline are just carbon stored
>underground for a really long time. The ultimate amount of carbon on
>the planet doesn't shift appreciably. It's just a matter of where it
>winds up.
You have to pick a timespan where fixed carbon that turns into CO2 is just being
rereleased into the ecosystem. The True Cross or anything else from Roman times
is a bit of a stretch for this "rerelease", but definitely anything before the
latest ice age shouldn't be included in a present-day ecosystem equation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:47:05 -0700, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up of the
> motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise which sounds like it's
> coming from the rear end. It only lasts for a very short period during the
> acceleration, and then goes away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
> The brushes looked broke in when I bought the motor from Bob Boyd. They were
> rounded, not flat. What sounds do brushes make, and are they RPM specific?
> Could a brush noise be resonating through the drivetrain? Maybe the car
> sitting for 8 months is producing some squealy bearings somewhere?
Hey Ryan, glad you're having fun.
Re the noise, on the motor in my car, under certain speeds and loads
it makes a kind of buzzing/growling sound (it's not got a Curtis 1221C
controller!). I think it's just the field windings vibrating
slightly. I don't know if it's what you've got though - does the
noise happen in neutral, just blipping the motor? How about with the
clutch in?
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sort of. Part of the reason the rocks under the sea are so "young" is
because the sea beds fold back under the crust and into the mantle. I
think the cycle is every 300 million years or so.
Thus carbon that hits the sea floor is "gone". But it comes "back" in
the form of volcanoes eventually. So think of it this way: If you go
with a sea burial you're likely to come out of a volcano. :-)
CZ
Michael Hurley wrote:
On Dec 16, 2004, at 1:32 AM, Doug Weathers wrote:
When you burn it, you're just putting back the CO2 that was "borrowed"
by the plants used to make the fuel. There's no net change in the
total CO2 in the atmosphere.
This isn't quite correct. You are not changing the total amount of CO2
in the *system*. You may well alter the balance of CO2 in the atmosphere
versus the CO2 in the ground/plantlife. But then, petrochemical organic
fuels such as gasoline are just carbon stored underground for a really
long time. The ultimate amount of carbon on the planet doesn't shift
appreciably. It's just a matter of where it winds up.
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. Phone (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. Fax (901) 761-2139
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to be a mother hen, but this is off topic. It has some merit in the
EV suitability debate, but the thread is now running rather long. Please
continue the CO2 discussion in private email.
Thanks,
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it's still not too late, I'll guess 13.5 seconds, but I'll hope
it's faster :) .
Probably not too much a worry at those acceleration rates, but some
cars have enough delay in the speedometer to add extra time to the
0-60. I'd suggest videoing a stopwatch, the speedo, and tach during
acceleration, and video again at a steady 60 mph, if you'd want to
check for any speedo delay relative to the tach.
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> David Dymaxion responded to my question "how fast do you think the
> 200sx
> will go from 0-60". He guessed 11-14 seconds. I was hoping for a
> little better, but I can be realistic. I thought I'd have a little
> fun
> with it though. In anticipation of the 200sx finally running
> (hopefully
> within the next 2 weeks if my batteries ever show up and I can
> steal
> enough time over the Thanksgiving break), I thought I'd have a
> little
> contest. Everyone send me your guess to the nearest tenth of a
> second
> on how fast you think I'll go 0-60 (David, you'll have to refine
> your
> estimate a bit). *The closest guess gets a free CafeElectric
> T-shirt!*
> Hey, I don't even have one of those yet!
>
> For those that missed the specs:
>
> Prestolite MTC-4001 7" 96V rated 20hp motor
> Zilla Z1K
> 144V of Exide Orbitals
> 1984 Nissan 200sx chassis - should weigh in around 3k lbs
>
> If you need a picture for aerodynamics, take a look at
> http://www.evsource.com/conversion/
>
> Hopefully we can have a little fun with this.
>
> -Ryan
>
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> 5% off all items in our Top-Line Shop from November to Christmas!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much of a factor is the vehicle's suspension in determining its GVWR,
vs. the strength of the body and/or frame?
In other words, with a higher spring rate and stiffer shocks, is it still
considered unsafe to exceed the GVWR?
How many folks out there have exceeded this value for their car, with or
without upgrading the suspension? Is there anyone who has had a "bad
experience" from having done so?
--chris
Mark Farver said:
> A vehicle’s GVWR is the maximum weight a vehicle should reach in use,
> including the vehicle itself, optional equipment, passengers, cargo and
> trailer tongue weight, but not including a trailer. A vehicle’s GVWR is
> established by its manufacturer and should not be exceeded for reasons
> of safety.
>
> So have the car weighed. Then subtract (by estimate or measuring) the
> weight of parts pulled out of the car during conversion (usually about
> 500 lbs). The difference between the weight and GVWR is how much EV
> parts you can add to the car.
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon,
I am in Newark, CA, behind the Harbor Freight Tools.
As far as I know there are at least 2 EV owner's in
Fremont and at least 2 in Newark (including me).
Ed Ang
--- Jon Simon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm in the Niles area of Fremont, CA and I'd love to
> see an honest to
> goodness EV. Is there anyone with one in my area?
> -Jon
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 13:29 -0600, Christopher Robison wrote:
> In other words, with a higher spring rate and stiffer shocks, is it still
> considered unsafe to exceed the GVWR?
>
My understanding is the GVWR is mostly determined based on the max load
the brakes can panic stop within the federally mandated distance. All
the other factors like suspension usually have a little headroom.
BUT you don't know which part of the car that is the limiting factor.
It may be brakes, or tires (think Ford Explorer blowouts/rollovers),
axles, whatever. Vehicles are collections of complex interrelated
factors which the manufacturer thought about.. but you might not be able
to. Since its a major safety and liability issue, I recommend against
exceeding GWVR.
That having been said.. auto engineers are a conservative lot, and I've
heard more than a few conversions that have gone a few hundred pounds
over GWVR without ill effects. Victor's CRX when it was running Optimas
was a good example IIRC. Just be very careful and take it easy in
testing.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this contest like the Price is Right? I.e. the closest without going
over....
If so I will go with 1 second...;-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 12:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: 200sx 0-60 estimates - a friendly little contest
If it's still not too late, I'll guess 13.5 seconds, but I'll hope
it's faster :) .
Probably not too much a worry at those acceleration rates, but some
cars have enough delay in the speedometer to add extra time to the
0-60. I'd suggest videoing a stopwatch, the speedo, and tach during
acceleration, and video again at a steady 60 mph, if you'd want to
check for any speedo delay relative to the tach.
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> David Dymaxion responded to my question "how fast do you think the
> 200sx
> will go from 0-60". He guessed 11-14 seconds. I was hoping for a
> little better, but I can be realistic. I thought I'd have a little
> fun
> with it though. In anticipation of the 200sx finally running
> (hopefully
> within the next 2 weeks if my batteries ever show up and I can
> steal
> enough time over the Thanksgiving break), I thought I'd have a
> little
> contest. Everyone send me your guess to the nearest tenth of a
> second
> on how fast you think I'll go 0-60 (David, you'll have to refine
> your
> estimate a bit). *The closest guess gets a free CafeElectric
> T-shirt!*
> Hey, I don't even have one of those yet!
>
> For those that missed the specs:
>
> Prestolite MTC-4001 7" 96V rated 20hp motor
> Zilla Z1K
> 144V of Exide Orbitals
> 1984 Nissan 200sx chassis - should weigh in around 3k lbs
>
> If you need a picture for aerodynamics, take a look at
> http://www.evsource.com/conversion/
>
> Hopefully we can have a little fun with this.
>
> -Ryan
>
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> 5% off all items in our Top-Line Shop from November to Christmas!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
=====
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
<<< If you choose to ignore the overwhelming facts of global warming,
you
are of course free to do so, but please keep such obvious and offensive
propaganda off the EVDL.>>
I think everyone agrees that our planet is warming.
The debate revolves around whether it's just a natural cycle or if it's
related to human activity.
Most scientists believe so.... but.... most scientist 100, 200, 300
years ago believed in things that have since been debunked....
Can we really ever be sure without real climate data from the past.....?
Sorry, couldn't help it...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Automotive execs should read 'State of Fear'
No offense intended Neon, but this is totally off topic, not to mention
that it is a stupid argument that is made.
A popular author pens a poorly written fictional book to forward a view
that goes against global scientific belief. Big deal. Since when do we
look to popular fiction authors to define scientific thought and
theories? Maybe we can get Steven King to write a book that ocean
currents really DON'T have an effect on global weather after all. It
would be about as stupid.
I know this book fits your "screw the tree-huggers" world view, Neon,
but PLEASE keep this nonsense off the EVDL. Global warming is a reality
that the VAST majority of scientists all over the world are convinced is
a reality, not due to nebulous predictions of doom, but due to hard
measurable facts such as polar ice cap melt and changing ocean
temperatures. This is not limited to UN flunkies as is asserted in your
post. Are there scientists who disagree? Of course. You will NEVER see
ALL the scientists agree on ANYTHING. That's just the nature of humans.
If you choose to ignore the overwhelming facts of global warming, you
are of course free to do so, but please keep such obvious and offensive
propaganda off the EVDL.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
That having been said.. auto engineers are a conservative lot, and I've
heard more than a few conversions that have gone a few hundred pounds
over GWVR without ill effects. Victor's CRX when it was running Optimas
was a good example IIRC. Just be very careful and take it easy in
testing.
Mark
My CRX was inspired (and followed after) first Cocconi's CRX with 28
first spiral Optimas. Not to say it is OK to do it, I just had a comfortable
example of identical exceeding GVWR by the same few hundred poinds
I did, and the vehicle not folding in half.
Cornering could be better but otherwise (after only installeng heavier
springs and shocks) was no problem. Good regen makes up for brake
assist, so no brakes mods were nesessary.
But this well built Honda CRX. Can't say for other vehicles. Perhaps
Insight ("improved" CRX) is even better in this respect.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I'm considering buying a RAV4-EV, but I have been forced to move recently.
I'm looking for a new place to live, and I'm wondering if anybody has
any experience charging in an apartment setting.
Thanks!
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote,
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/16/04 11:29:45 AM >>>
How much of a factor is the vehicle's suspension in determining its
GVWR,
vs. the strength of the body and/or frame?
In other words, with a higher spring rate and stiffer shocks, is it
still
considered unsafe to exceed the GVWR?
--chris>>>
My Jet Electrica (converted Dodge Omni) has a post-conversion GVWR
about 500 lbs higher than the glider had. In addition to stiffer
springs, Jet installed quite a few body reinforcements, including one in
the front fender, two in the air-intake tray in front of the windshield,
two steel plates along the bottom of the car behind the front wheels, a
crossbar on the front suspension, and angle iron on the rear suspension
and swingarm. This vehicle model had to pass a Federal crash test, and
I'm pretty sure that Jet didn't add anything they didn't need to in
order to meet the requirements.
Patrick
1981 Jet Electrica 007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An Ev'er asking about what that squealing noise coming from the back of
his car on hard acceleartion? LOL
But seriously, is it easier to get a smooth partial break of traction
with an Ev? especially with a good controller like he has ?
Does it squat? could be bushings? have someone watch, maybe the tires
are rubbing?
Chemical smell, do the cases feel warm? could it be the new plastic
giving off some smell as it is warmed up? If so it will go away.
Or any hot cables, the insulation could be a PVC, smell like new beachball?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing.
This Espar heater was mentioned in an old post, as a good replacement for the
Jet's original German heater.
http://www.espar.com/htm/airheat.htm
Heat output of 7200 BTU is possible with the smallest model.
http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/airtronic2.htm
How does that BTU compare with a 1500W heater element?
Richard
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 15:05 -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Chemical smell, do the cases feel warm? could it be the new plastic
> giving off some smell as it is warmed up? If so it will go away.
> Or any hot cables, the insulation could be a PVC, smell like new beachball
Probably not applicable in this case (used motor) but a new motor emits
a strong "burning electronics" smell the first couple of dozen times you
heat it up (or whenever you do something stupid, like drive around in
5th gear with a 1000amp controller). Quite terrifying if you recognize
it and are not prepared.
Mark
--
Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon Simon wrote:
I'm in the Niles area of Fremont, CA and I'd love to see an honest to
goodness EV. Is there anyone with one in my area?
-Jon
Hi Jon, welcome to the EV list!
You are lucky. there is substantial EV action in your area.
On this page I am counting 6 EAA chapters in the SF Bay area-
http://eaaev.org/eaachapters.html
Most have monthly meetings.
Many folks in your area are active on this list.
HTH!
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a distinct high-pitched "screee"; barely
audible, on hard acceleration, related to RPM, that
would also go away. Was determined to be controller
going into over-current protection mode. Stopped when
I started ramping up the RPMs to 30 mph in first gear
as I climbed hills: lower current, higher RPMs, = no
overcurrent protection.
> > * When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I
> hear the wind-up
> > of the motor, but there is some other sort of
> squealing noise
> > which sounds like it is coming from the rear
> end. It only lasts
> > for a very short period during the acceleration,
> and then goes
> > away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
>
> Good brushes make a soft "shhhhh" or "screee" sound.
> High brush
> pressures and high currents make the noise louder.
> The pitch is related
> to speed, but does not precisely change with speed.
>
> Other noises will come from the internal fan, and
> the transmission and
> differential. These noises are mostly a "whoosh" or
> a "whine" with a
> distinct peak pitch (like a whistle) that changed
> precisely with speed.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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Which or what battery is in the range 13.0 to 12.0 for 0 soc ??
I use Hawher Genesis G16EP 16 amp/hr I guess c20 rating and
They 100 % full at 12.84 volts. They do float up after charnging to 13.0 plus
but after setting or the surface change settal back to 12.84 ~.
I went to the Hawher site and checked, about 11.8 is 80% discharge and this is
what I have seen after pushing them hard.
I have used over 90 of these in racing over the last 4 years and most hold true
to these voltages
Bob Salem
81 VW pickup 240 volts, Z2K, 11 inch Kostov
Quoting Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
> > I'm loving driving the 200sx! People I take for rides are having
> > a blast too.
>
> That's great to hear!
>
> > A couple questions, mostly battery ones:
> > * A distinct chemical smell comes from the Orbitals after (and
> > during) a good, hard run.
>
> If it's coming from the batteries, that's bad! They should only vent
> during hard overcharging. They only vent during discharge if there is
> serious trouble, like a dead or reversed cell with its electrolyte
> boiling.
>
> > All the batteries are sitting between 12.23 and 12.39V.
>
> By "sitting", do you mean this is the no-load voltage after the
> batteries have sat with no loading or charging for several hours?
>
> Roughly speaking, 12.0v is dead (0% SOC), and 13.0v is fully charged
> (100% SOC) for an AGM. So... charge the pack, and let it sit idle
> overnight. In the morning, measure the voltages. They should all be
> 13.0-13.1v. If any battery is not, it is not fully charged, or are old
> and tired, or bad.
>
> After you've driven for a while and come home, let the batteries sit
> idle for several hours before charging, and measure the voltages again.
> A range like 12.23v to 12.39v is telling you the relative states of
> charge of each battery (roughly 23% to 38% SOC). This much variation
> would be a bit high; it says the pack is noticeably out of balance
> and/or has significant amphour capacity differences between batteries.
>
> > Is this just a break-in smell?
>
> There *is* no break-in smell!
>
> > * Can someone give me a good explanation about depth of discharge,
> > and state of charge? When charging my 144V pack, it should be
> > charged to 14.4V per battery for 172.8V.
>
> If you only charge to 14.4v/battery, it will take more than 24 hours to
> reach "full" -- ok if you have the time. Most people want to finish
> quicker, and so charge to a higher voltage -- 14.8v finishes in 8-10
> hours, for example. And if you want to equalize, you include a short
> time at a still higher voltage at the end -- like 15v for 30 minutes.
>
> > When I take the charger off though, it doesn't seem to rest at
> > that. After about 2 miles of driving, I'm sitting around 150V.
> > So what is the resting voltage for a charged Orbital?
>
> Just after charging, a lead-acid battery has a "surface" charge. The
> voltage will be somewhere between the last charging voltage (14.4-15v)
> and the final resting voltage after many hours (12.0-13.0v depending on
> state of charge). The voltage during this time is largely meaningless.
>
> > Wouldn't 80% discharge on a 14.4V battery be 2.88V?
>
> No! Not even close. The voltage vs SOC relationship varies with the
> type, age, and temperature of the battery, but it is roughly:
>
> 13.0v 100% SOC
> 12.75v 75% SOC
> 12.5v 50% SOC
> 12.25v 25% SOC
> 12.0v 0% SOC
>
> > * When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up
> > of the motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise
> > which sounds like it is coming from the rear end. It only lasts
> > for a very short period during the acceleration, and then goes
> > away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
>
> Good brushes make a soft "shhhhh" or "screee" sound. High brush
> pressures and high currents make the noise louder. The pitch is related
> to speed, but does not precisely change with speed.
>
> Other noises will come from the internal fan, and the transmission and
> differential. These noises are mostly a "whoosh" or a "whine" with a
> distinct peak pitch (like a whistle) that changed precisely with speed.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
