EV Digest 3963
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Hub motors for cars?
by Bob Hoehne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery smell question, etc.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Automotive execs should read 'State of Fear'
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) More battery smell comments/questions
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: More battery smell comments/questions
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) DIY Controller?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hub motors for cars?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DIY Controller?
by Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DIY Controller?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Perm PMG 080 gear box ideas
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Datsun 1200 for sale. Not a Wayland version.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Jackie Bennion contact email address
by "moira_moi99" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Lee Hart's Turkeymobile?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Battery Conference
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) DCP DC/DC input fuse
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In reading the Spec's online it mentions 2.2 KW verses
your 1.5 KW to obtain the 7200 BTU.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One more thing.
>
> This Espar heater was mentioned in an old post, as a
> good replacement for the Jet's original German
> heater.
> http://www.espar.com/htm/airheat.htm
>
> Heat output of 7200 BTU is possible with the
> smallest model.
> http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/airtronic2.htm
>
> How does that BTU compare with a 1500W heater
> element?
>
> Richard
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
just following on from the recent discussions relating to the energy use/CO2
emissions of grid-charged EVs, it occurred to me there is a pretty important
factor that seems rarely discussed: the energy required to manufacture the
batteries that go in EVs.
I've done a brief web search for credible figures, but no real luck.
So, I was wondering if anyone on the list has reasonable figures to questions
of the sort:
* If a flooded lead-acid battery can hold, say, 1kWh, how many kW-hours went
into its manufacture?
* Similarly, how many kW-hours are spent in recycling this dead battery back
to a usable state (or rather, how many kW-hours go into the creation of a new
battery from recycled/dead batteries).
* Similarly, for other typical EV batts (sealed PbA, NiCad, NiMh, Li-ion, ...)
Anyone happen to have any figures they consider credible?
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Claudio,
This one gave me a chuckle: Usually when people ask
this type of question, they are petrol. industry
shills. Then a flame war erupts, as EV enthusiasts ask
about the energy that went into manufacturing a
supertanker, and fueling it to go from the Persian
Gulf to the US.
You're going to have fun with this type of question
from a variety of points:
Hmmm: The melting temp of lead solder is about 700 F,
and our flooded batts. are 67 lbs. That should get
some calculations going! Anyone know the heat of
fusion for Pb?
If you don't get many responses, now you'll know
why...
(;-p
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> just following on from the recent discussions
> relating to the energy use/CO2 emissions of
> grid-charged EVs, it occurred to me there is a
> pretty important factor that seems rarely discussed:
> the energy required to manufacture the batteries
> that go in EVs.
>
> I've done a brief web search for credible figures,
> but no real luck.
>
> So, I was wondering if anyone on the list has
> reasonable figures to questions of the sort:
> * If a flooded lead-acid battery can hold, say,
> 1kWh, how many kW-hours went into its manufacture?
> * Similarly, how many kW-hours are spent in
> recycling this dead battery back to a usable state
> (or rather, how many kW-hours go into the creation
> of a new battery from recycled/dead batteries).
> * Similarly, for other typical EV batts (sealed
> PbA, NiCad, NiMh, Li-ion, ...)
>
> Anyone happen to have any figures they consider
> credible?
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
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=D-------/ - - \
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Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the responses to my question about hub motors, but I should have
been more specific. I have found numerous hub motors for bike applications, I
was hoping to find some suitable for a car, Hopefully in the 20+ HP each range.
And that is what I've only found rumors and prototypes of.
Thanks again,
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Dave wrote:
> Couldn't you use an inverter with 110vac 1500 watt quartz heater
> with some kind of 12vdc fan. Almost any of these small heaters
> would pump out a lot of heat.
>
> Just a thought.
>
Yes, and it works quite well in 'certain' cases. Such a case, is the way I use
an inverter
system in the back of my forklift service truck. The back is a large box
affair, a rolling
shop. I have a bank of, count 'em, six Trojan T145 6V golf car batteries in a
series-parallel pack to make up a 12V, 735 ahr supply to run the inverter. The
inverter is
rated at 1500W continuous, 3000W surge. It is a nice unit that easily hits its
continuous
rating, and in fact, exceeds it. I can draw 2000 watts continuous, and it never
breaks a
sweat. The batteries are inter-connected with 1/0 cable, and the output cable
from this
pack that passes through a 175 amp Anderson disconnect, is also 1/0 cable. Why
1/0 cable?
Because, to feed a power-hungry 1500W electric heater, the inverter draws about
140 amps
at 12V! This amounts to 47.5 amps from each battery.
Because my service truck is large and heavy and already packs around tons of
weight, and
because it has a high powered alternator, the set up of a large heavy bank of
batteries
and this powerful inverter, works out great. I can run anything from multiple
250W-500W
work lights, to cordless tool battery chargers, to a 1500 watt electric heater,
to a BIG 9
inch angle grinder (14 amps)...it also does a great job of powering up a window
style air
conditioner in the Summer! On days like today, where it was c-cold in the early
morning
hours where I ran the heater for 3-4 hours, the alternator isn't run long
enough between
service calls to fill the batteries all the way back up. To keep the pack
always ready to
give me all the 120 VAC power I might need, I plug the truck in at night (just
like an EV)
and let the on-board Todd 40 amp DC-DC charger fill up the 6 Trojans overnight.
However, to use this type of system running off of a road going electric car's
12V system,
would be a big negative. Just to run the inverter, you'd need hundreds of lbs.
of
batteries fed by a monster DC-DC converter. There are also losses in the 12 VDC
- 120 VAC
process, too, that are wasteful of power. Why do it, when a simple 1500W
ceramic core in
place of the stock heater's water radiator, run off the HV battery pack, works
so well
with virtually no loss of power?
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta laugh John, cuz I blanked out on the Hivo system when I wrote that.
Be pretty easy to connect it into the hivo with a simple pwm or chopper
to control the heat output and the amps used.
Dave
However, to use this type of system running off of a road going electric
car's 12V system,
would be a big negative. Just to run the inverter, you'd need hundreds of
lbs. of
batteries fed by a monster DC-DC converter. There are also losses in the 12
VDC - 120 VAC
process, too, that are wasteful of power. Why do it, when a simple 1500W
ceramic core in
place of the stock heater's water radiator, run off the HV battery pack,
works so well
with virtually no loss of power?
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
> This one gave me a chuckle: Usually when people ask
> this type of question, they are petrol. industry
> shills. Then a flame war erupts, as EV enthusiasts ask
Ugh. That was definitely not my intention, but I can see how that would pan
out. :-)
> about the energy that went into manufacturing a
> supertanker, and fueling it to go from the Persian
> Gulf to the US.
And building refineries, and trucking the fuel around, and... Thing is, there
are reasonable estimes for the "well to tank" energy cost for petroleum
(although I'd bet they fail to take full account of things like protection of
refining, pumping and tanking infrastructure, not to mention the energy
exhasuted in geopolitical excursions).
Getting back to my original questions:
Are questions like this off-topic for the EVDL? Perhaps, but as a
lurker-starting-to-be-convertor, I can imagine that I'll field questions like
"how much energy went into making your batts" sooner or later, and I'd like to
have answers that sound reasonable.
(And frankly, I'm a little embarrassed that I don't know the manufacturing and
recycling processes well enough [ahem... at all] to have any confidence on
fielding a ballpark estimate)
> Hmmm: The melting temp of lead solder is about 700 F,
> and our flooded batts. are 67 lbs. That should get
> some calculations going! Anyone know the heat of
> fusion for Pb?
Yeah, thought of that for a lower bound, but I have to assume that it is way
off the total.
> If you don't get many responses, now you'll know why...
Thanks for the heads up! But anyone want to prove Bob wrong? :-)
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Roughly speaking, 12.0v is dead (0% SOC), and 13.0v is fully charged
>> (100% SOC) for an AGM.
Bob Salem wrote:
> Which or what battery is in the range 13.0 to 12.0 for 100-0% SOC?
> I use Hawker Genesis G16EP 16 amp/hr... 100% full at 12.84 volts...
> 11.8v is 20% SOC...
Notice I said "roughly". The exact numbers vary between battery
manufacturers, and for different types within the brand. It also varies
with temperature, the age of the battery, the number of cycles on it,
and other factors. 12.0v to 13.0v for 0-100% SOC is just an
easy-to-remember approximation.
For Optimas, the numbers are more like 11.80v for 0% SOC, and 13.0v for
100% SOC. For my Concorde GPC-1295 AGMs, 11.90v is 0% SOC, and 13.05v is
100% SOC. For gel cells, 11.85v is 0% SOC and 13.1v. Floodeds are around
11.5v for 0% SOC and 12.6v for 100% SOC.
Also note that 0% SOC is too dead for a battery to be of any real use in
an EV. It takes 10% SOC or so for the car to even move.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a temporary "quick and dirty" heater, I once modified a cheapo
ceramic heater to run the heating element directly from my 120VDC pack
and ran the fan off of a little 200W inverter. It wasn't ducted into
the stock heater system (it was literally sitting on the passenger
floor) but it did a good job of heating the cabin and took me only 20
minutes to hook up -- much less than it would have taken to modify the
element to fit in the original heater core location. I also ran the
stock heater blower, and since the stock air pickup (when set to
"recirculate") was on the firewall near where the ceramic heater was
sitting, it actually did a pretty good job of defogging the windshield
(in temperate coastal California).
It was a crude and inelegant solution, but it worked!
Thinking back on it, I realize that the fan motor may well have worked
on 120VDC and I probably didn't need the inverter...but I didn't think
to try at the time.
cheers,
Andrew
Gnat wrote:
Couldn't you use an inverter with 110vac 1500 watt quartz heater
with some kind of 12vdc fan. Almost any of these small heaters
would pump out a lot of heat.
Just a thought.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: December 16, 2004 1:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
I second this, a hairdryer running from the pack is quite effective at
keeping the windscreen clear of condensation, if you duct it directly
to the vents. It also melts ice around the wipers quite nicely, which
a normal car heater takes ages to do.
It makes almost no noticeable difference to the inside temperature
though, I combat this with extra clothing :)
In really cold weather I run a fan heater (from the mains) in the car
for 10 minutes before going, that warms things up a bit.
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:46:08 -0800, Robb Zuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I use a "Vidal Sasoon" hair dryer. Large, higher quality hair dryers
tend to be quieter than small ones. It runs well off my 96 Volt pack.
Most hair dryers, popcorn poppers, etc. have motors that run fine on
DC. I switch it off by pulling its plug out of a standard outlet
that's mounted in the cab -- I taped up the dryer's own switch because
it would get fried otherwise. Use two hair dryers if it's desperately
cold out -- It's amazing how great that hot air feels if you pump it
directly inside your coat :)
If the heat doesn't keep up with the window fog, crack open a window
to let out some moisture.
Robb
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 23:30:28 -0600, Robert MacConnell wrote:
Greetings fellows, I'd be interested in hearing about what folks are
using
to heat and particularly defrost their vans. My van is currently equipped
with it's original(?) German made gasoline heater which doesn't work. I'd
like to replace it with something electric. Thanks for any input! Robert
MacConnell.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John,
Bottom line - forget novels. One can use common sense, and just read
whatever studies are out there. I've done it.
1 - There isn't one study out there that confirms, to my satisfaction at
least, that global warming is even happening. Some of the studies - touted
studies no less - have been ridiculous. I read some research conducted by some
UN
global warming scientists that were studying the melting of some glacier off
somewhere in Timbuktu. Had the thing all instrumented to hell and back. Had
all their data. Everything looked great. At their conclusion, they said that,
yae verily, the glacier was melting. At that point, I had no problem, and
nodded my head. Looked good. Then came the "therefore." Therefore - global
warming is taking place. I was like "What?!" and nearly dropped my coffee. I
mean, you spend all this frigging money, instrument some stupid glacier, take
all these core samples, do this, do that, etc. and then your conclusion is -
since the glacier is melting, global warming must be taking place?!!? You have
just as much reason at that point to conclude that some supernova off in
Cygnus-X is causing it to melt as global warming! That's not science worthy of
a
6th grade science class! All too often, all these highly touted "studies,"
done
by all these highly touted "scientists," amount to pretty much the same crap
research. And all too often, there is a political or ideological agenda
involved. Political/ideological agendas and science don't mix.
2 - Even if global warming is taking place - a "big if" - the next step in
the process is to prove that we are causing global warming, vs. it being a
natural cycle the earth is going through. I didn't read this out of some
policy
paper which is trying to dispute environmentalism or liberals. I didn't need
to. I am using my own damn common sense to come up with this bit of genuis.
Because the bottom line is, has the earth been covered with glaciers and ice
ages in it's past? Apparently so. Is it covered with glaciers and ice ages
now?
Apparently not. Conclusion: Earth warms sometimes, and cools sometimes.
Doesn't take a frigging rocket scientist to figure that one out - sorry. So if
it warms sometimes, and cools sometimes, and has done so many many times in
it's past, how do we know it's not doing it now? Is the frigging earth
"static?" Answer - no. To even expect such is just plain ridiculous.
I think EVs are cool. I don't own one yet, but one day I'll build one. But
I'm not doing it to "save the world from global warming," because at this
point I don't believe in global warming. I have an open mind, but there has to
be
a lot more real science than they have now in order to convince me, and I
just don't think that's gonna happen any time soon, if ever. Especially with
all
the agendas out there. So I'll build an EV one day because I think it is
potentially simpler for me to work on myself, and potentially more reliable
than
a gasoline engine, which I have grown to despise over the years because of
expense/reliability/maintainability.
By the way, I'm not preaching to anyone. If your passion is saving the world
from global warming, I could give a flying rat's ass. To each his own. Live
and let live. I can still ask you questions about EVs, and I can still have
a beer with you, can't I?
Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again everyone,
Thanks Lee for the good info. I still have a few questions. I need to
do some of the things you mentioned, like let things sit for a few hours
after driving and check the OC voltage.
A couple questions, mostly battery ones:
* A distinct chemical smell comes from the Orbitals after (and
during) a good, hard run.
If it's coming from the batteries, that's bad! They should only vent
during hard overcharging. They only vent during discharge if there is
serious trouble, like a dead or reversed cell with its electrolyte
boiling.
Well, I guess bad news then. I snuck my nose as close as I dared to
each of the batteries after driving for a few minutes. One of them had
the smell I'd been smelling. It smells (wow, use that word enough and
it starts to sound pretty funny :)) about like a swimming pool with a
good chlorination. Not putrid, just chemically.
It turns out that battery also was first to fire off the red light on
the regulator. I think I have them set to go off at 10V. I've got it
on the charger right now. When I get up in the morning after it's sat
for awhile, I'll measure the voltage of each battery and report. So
what if that stinker (literally!) is up with the rest of the pack,
around 13V? What am I to conclude about it? Why is it stinking? Lee,
you said that only a battery with problems would do that during
discharge? I think I've been pretty good to the batteries. I haven't
gone real far, and it doesn't seem like I've done anything drastic.
With the Orbitals being sealed, is there anything that can be done to
save this guy? Another $100 doesn't sound too pleasant.
All the batteries are sitting between 12.23 and 12.39V.
By "sitting", do you mean this is the no-load voltage after the
batteries have sat with no loading or charging for several hours?
Shoot, I don't remember how long they had been sitting or what condition
they were in (after driving, etc.) when I wrote that. I'll take better
notes of what's happening so I can give you good information...to help
me figure this all out :)
Roughly speaking, 12.0v is dead (0% SOC), and 13.0v is fully charged
(100% SOC) for an AGM. So... charge the pack, and let it sit idle
overnight. In the morning, measure the voltages. They should all be
13.0-13.1v. If any battery is not, it is not fully charged, or are old
and tired, or bad.
So how do you determine SOC while you're moving? Why does my DVM go off
the scales when I'm moving? Only when I come to a rest does it display
something on the screen.
If you only charge to 14.4v/battery, it will take more than 24 hours to
reach "full" -- ok if you have the time. Most people want to finish
quicker, and so charge to a higher voltage -- 14.8v finishes in 8-10
hours, for example. And if you want to equalize, you include a short
time at a still higher voltage at the end -- like 15v for 30 minutes.
Full? What's full? From what I've noticed of the PFC-20, it crawls up
to the voltage I have it set to (177 right now which is about 14.8*12)
in about 1.5 hours, then the charger goes on a timer for 15 minutes, and
then it's done. What's up with the 8-10 hours? Does it just have to
*reach* the 14.8V per battery, or sit there for awhile? Man, this
charging stuff isn't as clear as I thought it was.
13.0v 100% SOC
12.75v 75% SOC
12.5v 50% SOC
12.25v 25% SOC
12.0v 0% SOC
Well, after it has sat for awhile, I've measured the whole pack, and I
get about 156V. That would seem then like my overall pack is around
100% SOC. So I'm still really curious about that stinker.
* When I accelerate hard (which is really fun!) I hear the wind-up
of the motor, but there is some other sort of squealing noise
which sounds like it is coming from the rear end. It only lasts
for a very short period during the acceleration, and then goes
away. Could my brushes be making break-in noise?
Good brushes make a soft "shhhhh" or "screee" sound. High brush
pressures and high currents make the noise louder. The pitch is related
to speed, but does not precisely change with speed.
That sounds about like it. I bet it's the brushes. Cool.
Other noises will come from the internal fan, and the transmission and
differential. These noises are mostly a "whoosh" or a "whine" with a
distinct peak pitch (like a whistle) that changed precisely with speed.
Yes again. How cool!
Thanks for the help.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:25 PM
Subject: More battery smell comments/questions
>
> So how do you determine SOC while you're moving? Why does my DVM go off
> the scales when I'm moving? Only when I come to a rest does it display
> something on the screen.
You need to view both the voltage and current at the same time. As the
battery discharges, the voltage drops for two reasons: 1) the current being
drawn out of the battery and 2) the battery state of charge. An EV draws a
lot of current causing the first cause to totally obscure the second cause.
If you use a computer and an emeter to view the voltage and current
simultaneously, you will be able to tell the difference between the two
causes. When the battery is expended, the impedance more than doubles.
Your meter is being confused by noise on the wires. Try another meter. Some
of them have better filtering than others.
> >If you only charge to 14.4v/battery, it will take more than 24 hours to
> >reach "full" -- ok if you have the time. Most people want to finish
> >quicker, and so charge to a higher voltage -- 14.8v finishes in 8-10
> >hours, for example. And if you want to equalize, you include a short
> >time at a still higher voltage at the end -- like 15v for 30 minutes.
>
> Full? What's full? From what I've noticed of the PFC-20, it crawls up
> to the voltage I have it set to (177 right now which is about 14.8*12)
> in about 1.5 hours, then the charger goes on a timer for 15 minutes, and
> then it's done. What's up with the 8-10 hours? Does it just have to
> *reach* the 14.8V per battery, or sit there for awhile? Man, this
> charging stuff isn't as clear as I thought it was.
There are lots of ways to charge batteries. There is a tradeoff between
speed, ending state of charge and safety. The bulk charge with acceptance
taper is one of the faster charge profiles. You can also set the charger to
bulk charge at two amps to a higher end voltage. This takes longer but
produces a cooler and fuller battery. It is your choice (and your
responsibility) on how to charge your batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see anything
really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use simple
fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a few
of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle 600amps
with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this road
before.
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was attempting to find the same thing.
I got rather impatient with TM-4 who has a when motor
that fits the description. They are available if you
are willing to buy 100,000 at a time at 20K per set of
2 which comes with the special motor controller
system. Sort of like the AC Propullion system.
Unfortunately the people making wheel motors are
awaiting OEM acceptance due to manufacturing cost are
very high unless built in major quantities. And they
don't have the money to build them individually. Sorry
I haven't found a better answer than that. Whats funny
is that the Wheel motor idea is nearly 30 years old.
--- Bob Hoehne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you for the responses to my question about hub
> motors, but I should have been more specific. I have
> found numerous hub motors for bike applications, I
> was hoping to find some suitable for a car,
> Hopefully in the 20+ HP each range. And that is what
> I've only found rumors and prototypes of.
> Thanks again,
> Bob
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm working on one (aimed at electric karts) using the IRFPS3815 (a
150V 105A continuous avalanche-rated FET). The circuit design is done,
but the PCB layout is taking a while due to thermal issues
(specifically, trying to find a good way to mount the FETs so that I
can heat-sink them to the case of the controller).
My design basically consists of half an H-bridge (consisting of 6
paralleled FETs on each side) connected to 6 IR2010 drivers, which in
turn are controlled by a pair of SX micros. One SX does the low level
PWM control, the other does serial communication for config,
voltage/temperature/current monitoring and feedback, etc.
I'm using FETs rather than IGBTs because (a) the FETs are $4 each,
making the whole thing cost <$150 in components, and (b) they're more
efficient for lower voltages (FETs have a constant 'on' resistance,
whereas IGBTs have a constant voltage drop, meaning FETs work better
if you have low voltages and high currents.)
So basically yeah, if you're on the wrong track then so am I. :)
Cheers,
Quin
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:18:46 -0800, Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
> a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
>
> I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see anything
> really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use simple
> fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a few
> of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle 600amps
> with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
>
> Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this road
> before.
>
> Dave
>
>
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At 01:18 AM 17/12/04 -0800, Dave wrote:
I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see anything
really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use simple
fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a few
of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle 600amps
with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this road
before.
Dave
Hi Dave and all
I looked at it about two years ago. Once I *understood* what it takes
(time, money and effort), I bought a Zilla.
That said, the decision was in part because I'm using a used forklift
motor, and the extra money saved on the motor went into the controller,
which can be programmed to look after the motor.
If you are using a tough motor, and can build using IgBTs or MosFets that
are big enough to handle the peak currents individually (since it is not
easy to make them turn off at absolutley identical time), and you have the
time available to do it, then go for it! I built some small ones (24V @
160A) when I was experimenting that worked fine.
The main issues are (not in any particular order):
- gate or base drive current capacity
- low ESR capacitors, and lots of them
- battery and motor current limiting (average) can be on the micro
- controller current limiting (pulse-by-pulse) seperate to the micro (to
keep the magic smoke inside the silicon), both battery (through the
switching devices) and motor loop (through the diodes) limit preferred,
although just battery is OK
- construction that minimises stray inductance and capacitance around the
power devices, and minimises the capacitor to device distance
- diodes of suitable size and type to handle the motor loop amps and switch
off cleanly without reverse pulsing too much into the power devices.
- thermal cut-back integration
- battery voltage limiting
- cooling and heat transferance
(I'm sure there are more, these are just the ones off the top of my head)
Then there are the nice to have things:
- Motor RPM control
- Tacho drive output
- precharge control
- whatever the heart desires - logging etc
Have fun and let us know what you achieve.
James
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hi all
i need a gearbox to reduce the speed of the shaft on a
perm PMG080 motor
has any one any ideas on one that is comercially
available
i know i can get one of something else and make it fit
but i thought someone might have an idea on one that
bolts straight up
I could also do with a uk supplier of the motor if
there is one
lastly does any one smarter than me know if this motor
will run ok on my 4qd 300 controller - impedance
issues etc
thanks in advance of expert advice
=====
Regards
Richard
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=312&fromfromlist=advertisement_active&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist
It's a fast back not the coupe model like John Wayland. It's just like the
one I had in that era. Only 1100 bucks. Might turn out to be a good EV.
Lawrence Rhodes.
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Hello to All,
Andrew Letton wrote:
> As a temporary "quick and dirty" heater, I once modified a cheapo
> ceramic heater to run the heating element directly from my 120VDC pack
> and ran the fan off of a little 200W inverter.
>
> It was a crude and inelegant solution, but it worked!
>
> Thinking back on it, I realize that the fan motor may well have worked
> on 120VDC and I probably didn't need the inverter...but I didn't think
> to try at the time.
Actually Andrew, you did it right, I think. Most all of the small ceramic
heaters I've
seen and have played around with, use a shaded pole AC motor to run the fan,
and none to
date, have used a 'universal' series type motor, the only AC type that can also
run on DC.
A bit of rock & roll trivia.....the band AC/DC got their name off the back of a
vacuum
cleaner who's name plate said AC/DC due to its use of a series wound motor
(universal
motor).
I'm a big fan (pun intended) of doing EV heaters elegantly, correctly, and with
pride in
workmanship, so that when completed, the heater-defroster system looks and
operates just
like the factory system did, only better with instant-on warm up...this is why
I also, do
not like liquid-warmed EV heaters, because they aren't instant-on, though they
do come on
way faster than waiting for an ICE to warm up. Modern car and truck heaters are
so hard to
access and modify though, that the liquid-warmed
EV heater thing sometimes, can be a good route to go with.
This all said, I also, totally, understand those times when a quick, last minute
heater-defrosting solution is needed. For these times, it's hard to beat hair
dryers,
because unlike the ceramic type heaters, most all (not all) hair dryers indeed,
use a
small DC motor...usually fed off little diodes to rectify the AC first. Hair
dryers are
cheap to buy, small and compact, light weight, have high velocity blowers, put
out BIG
heat in a small package, and even have nozzles that are about the same size as
many older
cars' defroster hoses. The downside is lots of noise! Otmar lives in mostly
warm and sunny
Palo Alto, CA. He doesn't need a heater in his EV nearly as much as those of us
further
north, yet, there are times when heating and occasional defrosting is needed.
He simply
found twin hair dryers with fold-away handles who's nozzle diameters near
perfectly fitted
into his 914's heat system ducts under the dash in the front trunk area. He's
got them
secured with simple hose clamps.
For a quick, cheap, and not-so-elegant heating fix, hair dryers rule. From my
10-31-03
post 'Zombie Roams Portland on a C-C-Cold Halloween', here's an excerpt that
seems timely
for this current heater-defroster discussion:
> After work, I went searching for a last minute heater to keep me from
> freezing in the car.
> If this were a daily driver street EV more like Blue Meanie (who knows what
> the future
> brings), I'd do a real factory like heater-defroster-ventilation setup, but
> this was to be
> a 'get heat in the car somehow' type affair. As outlined, I had planned on
> getting a $20
> ceramic el cheapo type heater, but the two stores I checked out only had
> oscillating $29
> versions, and these didn't look too easy to take apart for rewiring....hmmmm.
> Then, while
> at Kmart, I found the perfect solution, among the $20-$35 1850 watt better
> quality
> hairdryers, there they were, just two of them left on the shelf at $9.95
> each, perfect,
> compact, el cheapo 1600 watt hairdryers, the noisy kind with those
> inexpensive tiny DC
> motors that scream at something like 15,000 rpm as they spin axial vane type
> fans and are
> fed DC via four discrete diodes that convert the 120 vac line
> power...perfect, they both
> could be run of the 240 vdc power of the car! I could wire these two things
> in series to
> get 3200 watts of heat for a cheap, last minute heater!
>
> Back at home, it was now 6:00 pm, time to join Marko (he had just got there)
> in the EV
> shop to get stuff done. The nighttime temperature was dropping like a rock
> and the chilly
> east wind was still blowing like crazy, but we were warm and cozy inside my
> backyard EV
> shop working feverishly trying to get the car race ready.....I went back in
> the shop to
> make a quick and dirty splitter extension cord with one end connected under
> the hood after
> the main contactor, the cord then running through the firewall, and the other
> end inside the
> car terminating in two 120 vac female receptacles, wired in series. It was
> 8:30 by the time
> we left to go racing, I hadn't even tried the heater out.......By the time we
> left the
> gas station, the Zombie had lost all of it's warmth from being in the shop
> and was
> already cold inside...brrr..time to try the twin hairdryer heater for the
> first time. It's OK to use the hairdryer switches to turn them on, it's just
> bad Ju Ju to
> try to use them to turn things off when running on pure DC. I decided to use
> the low
> settings for the trip to the track, flip one switch over to 'low'...nothing
> because of the
> nature of the series wiring...flip the other to 'low', and presto, the noisy
> fans came to
> life, and warm air immediately filled cabin....Arriving at tech-in, I left
> the hairdryers on
> as I turned the ignition key off, and after the contactor dropped out, then
> reached over and
> turned them off.
What I did't write about, was the trip home after a freezing-c-c-cold night of
drag racing
on that Halloween night. I was determined to thaw out on the 15-16 mile way
home from the
track, it was near midnight. I decided to use the 'high heat' setting on both
hair dryers.
Because it was a last minute affair, once turned on, there was no switching
them back and
forth between low and high, due to the fact that the DC power source would
instantly arc
through and weld shut the switches if I had tried to do so. Let me tell you
all....3200
watts of heat in that little 'ol Datsun 1200 is a lot of heat! Halfway home, I
had to roll
down the windowall the way to keep from being roasted!
Anyway, there you go...true confessions from a heater-defroster fanatic who
often tells
everyone else how to 'properly' design and build an EV heater system so that it
looks and
performs like factory. In the end, when the chips are down, you're in a hurry
and you need
heat and or defrosting in your EV, get a hair dryer or two for pocket change,
put up with
the cheesy install and the noisy fans, and stay warm.
See Ya....John Wayland
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Hi
Does anyone know how I might contact Jackie Bennion? I've tried
[EMAIL PROTECTED] but this address no longer works.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Moira Govan
EVUK
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One of the arguments often used in favor of EV's is the fact that the needed
electricity CAN come from very clean and environmentally friendly forms of
power generation.
I just ran across this article. It looks like there is a new turkey dung
power plant coming online in Minnesota.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6725508/
damon
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This was sent to me by a SEVA member, Terry Parkhurst, a free-lance
automotive writer, here in Seattle. Thought it might interest some of
you in the greater-EV-community
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>From: Advanced Automotive Batteries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: AABC, LLIBTA and VRLA Traction - The
Industry Event of 2005. >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:31:40 -0800
(GMT-08:00) > >Dear Mr. Terry Parkhurst, > >If you are involved in any
way with large batteries or ultracapacitors, this is your must-attend
conference for 2005. Present a poster paper with your most recent
findings to this focused group of large battery users and developers in
what promises to become the largest and most significant new battery
technology event of the year. > >This year, for the first time, we will
be hosting two symposia in conjunction with our main AABC conference: >
>Symposium on LARGE LITHIUM ION BATTERY TECHNOLOGY AND APPLICATION
('LLIBTA'): >The first ever dedicated discussion on the suitability of
large Li ion batteries to the industrial, aerospace, military and
automotive markets, including sessions on product life, availability and
robust tolerance. > >Symposium on THE USE OF VRLA BATTERIES IN TRACTION
APPLICATIONS: >The first international forum to focus on the progress in
applying VRLA technology to the non-stationary market, including motive
power, personal transportation and specialty and mainstream automotive.
We will have sessions on deep cycling; high-power, partial DOD cycling;
and battery monitoring and management. > >ADVANCED AUTOMOTIVE BATTERY
CONFERENCE (AABC-05): >In its fifth year, AABC will continue to cover
the recent market and technological advances in energy storage
technologies applied to the micro, mild and full hybrid with an
additional session on energy storage for heavy duty and specialty
vehicles. > >For more information about these three events, log onto:
www.advancedautobat.com > >TO SUBMIT A POSTER PAPER: >Email an abstract
for consideration to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >We will contact you
within one week to let you know if your poster paper has been accepted.
Please note that there is no additional fee for poster presentations. >
>EXHIBITS >For information about exhibiting your products to this
highly qualified audience of top automotive electrical power
technologists, leading battery/ultracapacitor developers, corporate
business developers and investors, please log onto our website. > >Mark
your calendar to join us in Honolulu, Hawaii, June 13 to 17, 2005. > >We
are committed to address your Conference Needs and we look forward to
seeing you in Hawaii. > >Happy Holidays. >The AAB Staff
>www.advancedautobat.com
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
toss it out for the listers to ponder.
Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
"always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
So something about my car is causing the failures.
My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
input current becomes an issue.
Some thoughts:
Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
go for a ride.
So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
reduce output if its getting hot.
Any other suggestions?
Mark Farver
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