EV Digest 3964
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: DIY Controller?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hub motors for cars?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: More battery smell comments/questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) This battery smell has me stumped
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Hub motors for cars?
by "johnk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lee Hart's Turkeymobile?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DIY Controller?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Looking for Paul Compton
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Bad Orbital I think
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Battery manufacture costs
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Bad Orbital I think
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Aliens cause global warming
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Bad Orbital I think
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: DIY Controller?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Gnat wrote:
> I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
> a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
>
> I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see
> anything really exotic. From wha I can see it would be
> possible to use simple fast switching igbt modules and a
> microcontroller to duplicate a few of the controllers. There
> are several igbt modules that handle 600amps with higher
> ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
>
> Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down
> this road before.
Hi Gnat,
Please understand that I am very near clueless regarding anything
electronic. I offer you a compilation of what has been offered here before.
Relatively low power controllers can be done by a DIYer with reasonable
success. When you get to on-road power levels, the accepted method to build
your own goes like this: Get an empty coffee can. When you fill it
fried/smoked/vaporized silicon, you're done.
It is so much more than theoretical design and analysis. That only gets you
in the ballpark. From there it's many iterations of "... zzzzzztPOOF ...
Well, that didn't work!" Many before you have found that it's much cheaper
to just go buy one. If you want to do it for the experience, building your
own controller will certainly give you some. You won't save any money.
Controller gurus, please remind me - what size coffee can was that?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce and All,
--- Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was attempting to find the same thing.
> I got rather impatient with TM-4 who has a when
> motor
> that fits the description. They are available if you
> are willing to buy 100,000 at a time at 20K per set
> of
> 2 which comes with the special motor controller
> system. Sort of like the AC Propullion system.
> Unfortunately the people making wheel motors are
> awaiting OEM acceptance due to manufacturing cost
> are
> very high unless built in major quantities. And they
> don't have the money to build them individually.
> Sorry
> I haven't found a better answer than that. Whats
> funny
> is that the Wheel motor idea is nearly 30 years old.
You missed that by about 70 yrs. I've seen pics
and patent drawings of wheel motors from the turn of
the century.
They were used in truck wheels. Most used
internal gears like the motor driving a rim gear on
the brake drum direct or thru an idler.
The problem with wheel motors is if you don't
have gears in it, they can't put the coils, lams
needed for the torque needed in the space available.
So it's a lot easier to put the motor on the trailing
arm suspension near the pivot with a chain or belt for
gear reduction to get the needed torque.
This saves a lot of unsprung weight, making
handling easier, better, especially on light weight
vehicles where unsprung weight really hurts. On buses,
trucks this isn't as much a problem.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Claudio Natoli wrote:
> Are questions like this off-topic for the EVDL? Perhaps, but as a
> lurker-starting-to-be-converter, I can imagine that I'll field
> questions like "how much energy went into making your batteries"
> sooner or later, and I'd like to have answers that sound reasonable.
My concern is that it's not the right question. It assumes that
"efficiency" is the right way to evaluate the different transportation
technologies. It is not.
In general, we pay NOTHING for the energy we use. The stored energy in
coal or oil is likewise free; nature stored it there millions of years
ago. The energy in sunlight, wind, and hydroelectric power is FREE. All
we are paying for is the processing of that energy; to extract it from
where it is, convert it into a form of energy we want, and transport it
to where we want to use it.
In other words, we don't pay for the oil; we pay for the oil well and
refinery. We don't pay for the water; we pay for the dam. We don't pay
for the light or wind; we pay for the solar cells or windmills.
Now, there ARE real costs associated with energy -- but they are hidden
costs. Oil extraction causes pollution. Coal mining destroys large areas
of land. Dams flood large areas and destroy habitats. Windmills kill
birds. These cost us through disease, wars, ecological damage, global
warming, and worsening the world for our children. But since we don't
measure them in dollars and they don't come out of our wallets, we
ignore them.
This leads to a strange sort of economics, where the price of energy is
not based on the cost of the energy itself or the consequences of using
it; but solely on the cost of extracting and transporting it. Companies
charge by the KWH or by the gallon; but all they're doing is dividing
their extraction costs by the amount of energy produced. So people care
only about what they PAY for energy; not how much energy they are
actually using. They think of their electric bill in dollars, (or pounds
or francs), not KWH. Most people can tell you exactly how much they pay
per month for electricity, but few know how many KWH they used.
Here's the point of all this. It doesn't matter how efficient an energy
technology is -- all that matters is what it COSTS. Hopefully, we are
trying to include the social costs (pollution, disease, wars), and not
just the pure economic cost.
For example, coal is the cheapest energy source; but we would be crazy
to switch all our homes and cars to burn coal. The cost in air
pollution, environmental destruction, and health would be disasterous.
Conversely, solar cells probably have the lowest efficiency of any
energy technology; barely 10% of the energy in sunlight gets converted
to electricity. But the energy is free (sunlight) and available
everywhere (no transportation costs). The social cost of solar cells is
probably the lowest of any energy technology. So why don't we use them;
because they are expensive. If someone invented a solar cell paint that
was only 1% efficient, but cost less than coal, we would switch over to
solar so fast it would make your head swim!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> [smells] coming from the batteries, that's bad!
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> Well, I guess bad news then. I snuck my nose as close as I dared
> to each of the batteries after driving for a few minutes. One of
> them had the smell I'd been smelling. It smells about like a
> swimming pool with a good chlorination. Not putrid, just
> chemically.
A venting battery will usually have an acidic smell; a sharp tang like
lemon juice, chemical but not necessarily unpleasant. It's from sulfuric
acid mist in the air.
A seriously damaged battery often has a rotten egg smell; it is from
hydrogen sulfide being produced. It happens when so much water has been
lost from previous gassing that the acid is decomposing.
> It turns out that battery also was first to fire off the red light
> on the regulator... I've got it on the charger right now... what if
> that stinker (literally!) is up with the rest of the pack, around
> 13V? What am I to conclude about it? Why is it stinking?
My guess is that this battery has a bad cell, and its vent has opened.
When you start driving, the bad cell goes dead very soon, and thereafter
acts like a resistor. The cell gets hot, perhaps even boiling its
electrolyte, and that produces the gas. It's been doing this for a
while, and is now low enough on water to also be venting hydrogen
sulfide as well as acid mist.
On charge, the bad cell will come back up to normal voltage, then
proceed into overcharge. So, you may well see a normal 'fully charged'
voltage; however, that voltage will fall very quickly if you put it
under load.
> I think I've been pretty good to the batteries. I haven't gone real
> far, and it doesn't seem like I've done anything drastic. With the
> Orbitals being sealed, is there anything that can be done to save
> this guy? Another $100 doesn't sound too pleasant.
Well, it may not be anything you've done. There are always variations
between batteries, sometimes even large variations between new ones. You
may have just gotten a bad one to begin with. If they are new, take it
back to your dealer. If they all work but one, that is fairly clear
evidence that it is bad.
> So how do you determine SOC while you're moving?
You can't do it from voltage. As Joe Smalley pointed out, it changes too
much as a result of load current to be useful.
> Why does my DVM go off the scales when I'm moving?
The PWM controller in an EV is very noisy. It takes a meter with very
good noise immunity to provide stable readings.
Also, connect the wires that measure battery voltage directly to the
batteries; not to the controller or someplace far away from the
batteries. Twist the two wires (+ and -) together, and keep the pair
away from the other high-current wires (don't run the sensing wires next
to the propulsion wires).
>> If you only charge to 14.4v/battery, it will take more than
>> 24 hours to reach "full" -- ok if you have the time...
>> 14.8v finishes in 8-10 hours, for example.
> Full? What's full?
That's a good question! A battery isn't like a rigid bucket that holds
exactly 5 gallons. It's more like a balloon, whose capacity depends on
how hard to "push".
> From what I've noticed of the PFC-20, it crawls up to the voltage
> I have it set to (177 right now which is about 14.8*12) in about
> 1.5 hours, then the charger goes on a timer for 15 minutes, and
> then it's done. What's up with the 8-10 hours?
The PFC20 is an unusually fast charger, you have unusually low amphour
batteries, and are not discharging them very deeply; thus your charging
time is shorter than usual. Your batteries are rated around 50 amphours,
I think. If you take out (say) 30 amphours, then charge at 20 amps for
1.5 hours, you've put that 30 amphours back. The batteries aren't
"full", but they are close.
> Does it just have to *reach* the 14.8V per battery, or sit there for
> awhile?
It has to sit there a while. Basically, the battery is "full" when the
current stops falling at a constant voltage. Your batteries would be
full when the current falls to about 1-2 amps at 14.8v.
> Well, after it has sat for awhile, I've measured the whole pack, and I
> get about 156V. That would seem then like my overall pack is around
> 100% SOC. So I'm still really curious about that stinker.
As mentioned above, the 'stinker' can be fully charged, yet only have a
capacity of 1 amphour in the bad cell. Thus it would go dead almost
immediately under use. You'd see that its voltage would drop very
quickly under load from 13v to 11v or less.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Solder... 63/37 Lead to Tin ratio melts at 360 Deg F... not 700, Reflow is
460 to 510 Deg F.
So... if you ever get solder over 600 Deg F, it smokes as the lead boils off
the Tin. This is very hazzardous, and would ruin a batch of solder really
quickly
My solder wave machine has 210 lbs of solder in it, and the current price
for solder is $4.25 a pound. So for $900 bucks, YOU WILL NEVER see me take
the solder to 700 Deg F.
InFact I would fire anyone who tried it. And them hand them the bill.
Gassing Solder in a shop is almost a Hazzmat failure. The vapors are really
nasty.
Truthfully the only reason a solder bath would get to 700 Deg is that
the temperature controller has failed on... This a a couple hundred Buck
sensor...I have already calibrated my new one, and I know the offsets.
I would like to know the heat of fusion for 63/37 SnPb solder, this is
something I watch everyday, The pot gets hotter and hotter then stops , as
the solder melts, then when it is all melted the temp starts to rise again.
With only 2kw going into the main heater elements, this takes about 2 hours
to come up to temp. I need to up this a bit...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:50 PM
Subject: OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
> Hi Claudio,
> This one gave me a chuckle: Usually when people ask
> this type of question, they are petrol. industry
> shills. Then a flame war erupts, as EV enthusiasts ask
> about the energy that went into manufacturing a
> supertanker, and fueling it to go from the Persian
> Gulf to the US.
> You're going to have fun with this type of question
> from a variety of points:
> Hmmm: The melting temp of lead solder is about 700 F,
> and our flooded batts. are 67 lbs. That should get
> some calculations going! Anyone know the heat of
> fusion for Pb?
> If you don't get many responses, now you'll know
> why...
> (;-p
>
> --- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > just following on from the recent discussions
> > relating to the energy use/CO2 emissions of
> > grid-charged EVs, it occurred to me there is a
> > pretty important factor that seems rarely discussed:
> > the energy required to manufacture the batteries
> > that go in EVs.
> >
> > I've done a brief web search for credible figures,
> > but no real luck.
> >
> > So, I was wondering if anyone on the list has
> > reasonable figures to questions of the sort:
> > * If a flooded lead-acid battery can hold, say,
> > 1kWh, how many kW-hours went into its manufacture?
> > * Similarly, how many kW-hours are spent in
> > recycling this dead battery back to a usable state
> > (or rather, how many kW-hours go into the creation
> > of a new battery from recycled/dead batteries).
> > * Similarly, for other typical EV batts (sealed
> > PbA, NiCad, NiMh, Li-ion, ...)
> >
> > Anyone happen to have any figures they consider
> > credible?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Claudio
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And Tome Ture's 280 Z with the 3 motors, and three Raptors...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: The 200sx is alive!!
> nice work ryan. when I get the 240Z done, you, me, and steve clunn
> should get our 240Z, 300ZX and 240SX together for a little
> Datsun-nissan party :) Oh, and John Wayland can come too.
> Congratulations again,
>
> seth
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Point 1
The DCP dc/dc has a brown out feature, it goes to sleep instead of
asking for a Bazillion amps and dieing. At 48 volts it just makes 1/2 the
output watts is could at 96.
Low input voltage is NOT a issue.
#18 gage on the input ??? I think NOT, use #12 gage,and fuse it at 5 amps
with a slow blow fuse.
the #10 12 volts wiring is fine....
Mine has years of negkect and abuse on it, it still fires off what is left
of the fiero drive train, and the one Damon himself put in Goldie after he
fried my Todd, is still in prefect working condition.
But a LOT more corroded than when it went in in about 1999.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:43 AM
Subject: DCP DC/DC input fuse
> I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
> toss it out for the listers to ponder.
>
> Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
> around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
> and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
> "always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
> a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
> caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
> immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
> disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
>
> Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
> went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
> months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
> the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
> large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
> component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
> reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
> of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
> They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
> about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
> headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
> and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
> fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
>
> Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
>
> So something about my car is causing the failures.
>
> My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
> input current becomes an issue.
>
> Some thoughts:
> Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
> protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
> position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
>
> Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
> feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
>
> Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
> cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
> go for a ride.
>
> So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
> reduce output if its getting hot.
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Mark Farver
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I charged last night, and just went out to check each battery. Lowest:
12.92, highest 13.0. So I'm between 92-100% SOC, right? 10 of the
twelve were right at 12.96. Then there was the 12.92 one and 13.0. The
thing that has me stumped is the one that was smelling last night is at
12.96. So why in the world is it smelling?
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good reply might be, "Well, it takes 12 million of these batteries to equal
the mass of one
supertanker." That ought to get the thought processes going.
Tim
---------
> Subject: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:28:40 +1100
> From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> just following on from the recent discussions relating to the energy use/CO2
> emissions of
> grid-charged EVs, it occurred to me there is a pretty important factor that
> seems rarely
> discussed: the energy required to manufacture the batteries that go in EVs.
>
> I've done a brief web search for credible figures, but no real luck.
>
> So, I was wondering if anyone on the list has reasonable figures to questions
> of the sort:
> * If a flooded lead-acid battery can hold, say, 1kWh, how many kW-hours went
> into its
> manufacture?
> * Similarly, how many kW-hours are spent in recycling this dead battery back
> to a usable state
> (or rather, how many kW-hours go into the creation of a new battery from
> recycled/dead
> batteries).
> * Similarly, for other typical EV batts (sealed PbA, NiCad, NiMh, Li-ion,
> ...)
>
> Anyone happen to have any figures they consider credible?
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But aren't Pan cake style PM motors known for their high torque?
John K
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if you could eliminate the handle, fan and switches and just put
it inline with your ducting and use the stock blower upstream from the
heater. Do hair dryers self-limit when the fan dies?
Tim
-------
> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:42:28 -0800
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
<snip>
> This all said, I also, totally, understand those times when a quick, last
> minute
> heater-defrosting solution is needed. For these times, it's hard to beat hair
> dryers,
> because unlike the ceramic type heaters, most all (not all) hair dryers
> indeed, use a
> small DC motor...usually fed off little diodes to rectify the AC first. Hair
> dryers are
> cheap to buy, small and compact, light weight, have high velocity blowers,
> put out BIG
> heat in a small package, and even have nozzles that are about the same size
> as many older
> cars' defroster hoses. The downside is lots of noise! Otmar lives in mostly
> warm and sunny
> Palo Alto, CA. He doesn't need a heater in his EV nearly as much as those of
> us further
> north, yet, there are times when heating and occasional defrosting is needed.
> He simply
> found twin hair dryers with fold-away handles who's nozzle diameters near
> perfectly fitted
> into his 914's heat system ducts under the dash in the front trunk area. He's
> got them
> secured with simple hose clamps.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Great. We may switch from dinosaurs to turkeys now.
Wonder what's next...
Victor
damon henry wrote:
One of the arguments often used in favor of EV's is the fact that the
needed electricity CAN come from very clean and environmentally
friendly forms of power generation.
I just ran across this article. It looks like there is a new turkey
dung power plant coming online in Minnesota.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6725508/
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gnat wrote:
I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see anything
really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use simple
fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a few
of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle 600amps
with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this road
before.
Dave
Read up on power electronics first, then get your credit card out. If
you want to build your own and experiment - "more power to you" but if
you just want something that works, buying one would likely work out better.
Remember.. the gate on that 600 amp IGBT is still pretty delicate.
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul, the email address I have for you doesn't work. If you read this,
please contact me off-list. I need to ask you some EV-related questions.
Thanks!
Sorry, listers, this is the only way I know to find him.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
Mine gets HOT. Especially on the mornings when I do a 15 mile trip with
the headlights on, then the DC/DC is almost too hot to touch. I've never
had a problem with the input fuse despite all the heat mine puts out. Oh
and then there's that squealing sound mine makes most of the time....
> although the DC/DC should just
> reduce output if its getting hot.
Hmmm, well in that case maybe I should install a fan on mine, as I need
as much power out of it as possible to keep the 12 volt system up with
the P/S pump running. Maybe if you temporarily put a fan on yours you
could keep its temperature level down to see if that makes the problem
go away?
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 12:43, Mark Farver wrote:
> I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
> toss it out for the listers to ponder.
>
> Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
> around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
> and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
> "always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
> a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
> caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
> immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
> disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
>
> Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
> went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
> months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
> the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
> large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
> component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
> reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
> of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
> They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
> about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
> headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
> and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
> fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
>
> Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
>
> So something about my car is causing the failures.
>
> My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
> input current becomes an issue.
>
> Some thoughts:
> Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
> protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
> position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
>
> Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
> feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
>
> Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
> cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
> go for a ride.
>
> So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
> reduce output if its getting hot.
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Mark Farver
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'm pretty sure that the smelly battery has problems. It charges just
fine, and shows a SOC (after resting for about 10 hours) right up with the rest
of the crew. But as soon as I put demand on it, it poops out. The red light
on the regulator goes on while none of the other regulator lights have fired
off.
I've contacted AutoSupplyUSA where I bought them to see about warranty
information. I've read here on the list that you can run into problems with
warranty service if the batteries were used in an EV. But I've got less than
20 miles on it, and it's only one. Anyone care to guess what my luck will be
on that?
In the meantime, I should probably take that battery out of the string, huh?
Or just cook it to death? What would cause it to do what it's doing, i.e.
charge fine, show a fine SOC, but loose its composure as soon as a few (hehe)
amps are asked of it?
Oh I love driving the EV! I just took another guy here at work for a ride.
That puts the count up to about 6. The EV grin is just plastered over
everyone's faces while riding, and for about an hour after :)
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can only speak to one part, the cases.
Mostly polypropelene,( made from natural gas or oil refining.)
The cost goes down with quantity purchased, like $2.50/lb < 1000,
$1.75/lb 1000 lb increments $.56/lb to $.38/lb buying by rail car(s).
Rail car is 80,000 lbs and needs to be used in about a month or they
make you off load it to a silo.
24*5*4 = 480 hours availablie and battery cases are about 25seconds per
shot and 4 or 8 cavity molds running about $150/hour
thats 69120*4 = 276480 battery cases /month on 4 cavity we can see we
will need more material, I would be embarrased if I couldn't get a sub
30 second cycle on a comodity item out of PP.
Lets say 2lb/case , maybe a dollar of plastic + about $ .26
power/labor/maintance
These are not unreal quantities,cycle times and prices, add a litttle
profit and I would say the cases are still under $2
I am currently looking into what it takes to make various battery types,
anyone else considered rolling our own LI-ion cells?(low volume) or am
I wacked.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
After a whole afternoon of removing most of the components in the engine
compartment, I pulled the motor from the Jeep today.
The first thing I noticed was that the pilot bearing is damaged. It
appears that the bushing which holds my pilot bearing in place slid out
the back of the flywheel a little (it just barely slid out as the motor
shaft prevented it from moving any further). So, because of this, the
pilot shaft was just barely inserted into the bearing, and it tore it up
a bit...
The motor is now sitting upright (it is sitting on top of its crate,
with the tail shaft going through a hole I made in the crate). I was
thinking that it would be neat if I could take the end bell off the
front of the motor and look for any damage in the motor myself before I
take it to a shop on Monday. I unscrewed the four bolts, but when I lift
on the front end bell, the whole motor armature tries to come out with
it. Is there a way I can take just the front end bell off? I'm guessing
the bearing is why I can't just take the front bell off?
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's see: I'd say either dry from the factory, or a short near the top
of the battery in at least one cell. Just for giggles, does it drop to
10v under load, or lower?
10 would indicate one bad cell; lower would be really interesting.
Chris
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Well, I'm pretty sure that the smelly battery has problems. It charges just fine, and shows a SOC (after resting for about 10 hours) right up with the rest of the crew. But as soon as I put demand on it, it poops out. The red light on the regulator goes on while none of the other regulator lights have fired off.
I've contacted AutoSupplyUSA where I bought them to see about warranty
information. I've read here on the list that you can run into problems with
warranty service if the batteries were used in an EV. But I've got less than
20 miles on it, and it's only one. Anyone care to guess what my luck will be
on that?
In the meantime, I should probably take that battery out of the string, huh?
Or just cook it to death? What would cause it to do what it's doing, i.e.
charge fine, show a fine SOC, but loose its composure as soon as a few (hehe)
amps are asked of it?
Oh I love driving the EV! I just took another guy here at work for a ride. That puts the count up to about 6. The EV grin is just plastered over everyone's faces while riding, and for about an hour after :)
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This might be the most importaint essay of the decade on the politics of
Big Science. It is long but worth the read.
http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote04.html
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the old days, when I was an ICE mechanic, I would have said you have lost
plate material. How long does it take to charge the suspect battery? If it
charges up relatively quickly, you may have lost plate material due to
overheating, mechanical trauma (vibration) or possibly even defect. The less
material in the plate, the faster the charge/discharge. My two cents
worth...
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: Bad Orbital I think
Well, I'm pretty sure that the smelly battery has problems. It charges
just fine, and shows a SOC (after resting for about 10 hours) right up
with the rest of the crew. But as soon as I put demand on it, it poops
out. The red light on the regulator goes on while none of the other
regulator lights have fired off.
I've contacted AutoSupplyUSA where I bought them to see about warranty
information. I've read here on the list that you can run into problems
with warranty service if the batteries were used in an EV. But I've got
less than 20 miles on it, and it's only one. Anyone care to guess what my
luck will be on that?
In the meantime, I should probably take that battery out of the string,
huh? Or just cook it to death? What would cause it to do what it's
doing, i.e. charge fine, show a fine SOC, but loose its composure as soon
as a few (hehe) amps are asked of it?
Oh I love driving the EV! I just took another guy here at work for a
ride. That puts the count up to about 6. The EV grin is just plastered
over everyone's faces while riding, and for about an hour after :)
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A loose connection on the either the hv side or 12 volt side could cause this.
Loose terminals are common on EVs. If nothing is loose, check for shorts on
the 12 volt side. Intermittent short probably. Also, a HV short to the
chassis can cause a problem. Good luck.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Viera<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
Hi,
> It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
Mine gets HOT. Especially on the mornings when I do a 15 mile trip with
the headlights on, then the DC/DC is almost too hot to touch. I've never
had a problem with the input fuse despite all the heat mine puts out. Oh
and then there's that squealing sound mine makes most of the time....
> although the DC/DC should just
> reduce output if its getting hot.
Hmmm, well in that case maybe I should install a fan on mine, as I need
as much power out of it as possible to keep the 12 volt system up with
the P/S pump running. Maybe if you temporarily put a fan on yours you
could keep its temperature level down to see if that makes the problem
go away?
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/<http://go.driveev.com/>
------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 12:43, Mark Farver wrote:
> I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
> toss it out for the listers to ponder.
>
> Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
> around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
> and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
> "always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
> a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
> caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
> immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
> disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
>
> Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
> went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
> months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
> the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
> large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
> component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
> reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
> of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
> They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
> about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
> headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
> and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
> fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
>
> Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
>
> So something about my car is causing the failures.
>
> My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
> input current becomes an issue.
>
> Some thoughts:
> Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
> protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
> position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
>
> Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
> feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
>
> Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
> cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
> go for a ride.
>
> So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
> reduce output if its getting hot.
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
> Mark Farver
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Chris heres the thing...
I design avionics for a living so I have slowly figured out which end
of a hot soldering iron to grip...though I do forget from time to time.
I can get most of the components including the igbt's as engineering samples
so other than my wasted time, there is no cost to me.
I think there can be quite a few little options that would benefit things
such as acceleration mapping or pre-programmed driving modes, remote
switching
modules etc. Personally I'd rather try some of these instead of just
plugging
in the Curtis I have here.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: December 17, 2004 10:02 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: DIY Controller?
Gnat wrote:
> I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
> a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
>
> I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see
> anything really exotic. From wha I can see it would be
> possible to use simple fast switching igbt modules and a
> microcontroller to duplicate a few of the controllers. There
> are several igbt modules that handle 600amps with higher
> ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
>
> Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down
> this road before.
Hi Gnat,
Please understand that I am very near clueless regarding anything
electronic. I offer you a compilation of what has been offered here before.
Relatively low power controllers can be done by a DIYer with reasonable
success. When you get to on-road power levels, the accepted method to build
your own goes like this: Get an empty coffee can. When you fill it
fried/smoked/vaporized silicon, you're done.
It is so much more than theoretical design and analysis. That only gets you
in the ballpark. From there it's many iterations of "... zzzzzztPOOF ...
Well, that didn't work!" Many before you have found that it's much cheaper
to just go buy one. If you want to do it for the experience, building your
own controller will certainly give you some. You won't save any money.
Controller gurus, please remind me - what size coffee can was that?
Chris
--- End Message ---
