EV Digest 3971
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I need Nicad batteries
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zamboni conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Splined shafts
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Long Range EV with decent performance?
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Long Range EV with decent performance?
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Making EV conversions new vehicles, Re: EV Taxes
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) OT, another view on Michael Chrihtons book
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV calender
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV calender
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Long Range EV with decent performance?
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zamboni conversion
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Zamboni
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Taxes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
David Roden wrote:
> Lee Hart is an electrical engineer with many, many years of EV use under his
> belt; he's a thrifty EVer, moderate in his driving. He knows his stuff: on
> the ^average^, and for a more typical EV user, flooded golf car batteries
> ^will^ deliver longer range and longer life.
OK, but to clarify credentials, I too, have 'many years of EV use under my
belt'. To be
able to squeeze 25 miles per charge from just 585 lbs. of lead (13 Optimas), I
believe
that easily qualifies me also, as a thrifty EVer who 'can' be moderate in his
driving.
Keep in mind, that over my 2.5 decades of designing, constructing, driving, and
racing
EVs, I've owned my fair share of 96V-120V wet cell powered EVs, too. I haven't
kept track,
but I'd estimate I've help design and construct at least 50 EVs using golf car
batteries.
I've written in the past, about my relationship with 'Sluggo', a way too heavy,
lethargic
108V wet cell powered 80's era Ford Escort with a tepid 400 amp
controller...hence the
name Sluggo! Let me tell ya, David, one definitely has to a thrifty EVer who's
moderate in
his driving in order to accept and live with such a car.
It's not acceptable for many, that an EV equipped with 1200-1500 lbs. of golf
car
batteries, takes 20 seconds to hit 60 mph, or slows to 35 mph on moderate
hills, or takes
twice as much distance to stop safely from highway speeds. In order for golf
car batteries
to make good on Lee's promise (high range, high life), this is what has to take
place.
Packs made up of fewer numbers of these heavy low voltage batteries could
reduce the
weight load and thus make handling and braking more acceptable, but then the
horsepower
level of such a low voltage pack would be minimal, still restricting
acceleration, hill
climbing ability, and top speed. Using a high amp controller to wring out more
performance, say going up from a 500 amp controller to a 1000 amp controller,
would
improve these areas but then, take its toll on these batteries in a hurry and
cause them
to give far less range per charge and far less cycle life. As I stated, the
only reason
they give high range and high cycle life, is that they are most always, used as
a very
large and heavy pack, are used with tepid controllers that baby the batteries,
and fail to
deliver acceptable performance.
Today's newest EVers want their conversions to accelerate, steer, brake, and
pull hills
just like a regular gas car can. Trying to do this using traditional golf car
batteries is
all but impossible. If one states that these batteries can deliver high range
and high
life, then one should also state all the things one must give up in order to
achieve these
benchmarks. You just can't compare other batteries that 'can' deliver
acceleration,
steering, braking, and effortless hill climbing power like a regular gas car
can, to golf
car batteries that can't do any of this, then proclaim that golf car batteries
are better
at high range and high life. The truth still is, that if an EV conversion that
delivers
acceleration, steering, braking, and effortless hill climbing power like a
regular gas car
is the goal, under this criteria, golf car batteries don't cut it, and, won't
be better at
anything at all...including range and cycle life.
> They will also deliver MUCH lower cost per mile than AGMs.
Only if you design and build a s-l-o-w, poky EV. Try designing, building, and
driving an
EV conversion using golf car batteries that matches the stunning performance of
an
AGM/high amp controller based EV, and see what that cost per mile goes up to!
I've already
done it. Blue Meanie used to be powered by the approximate same weight in golf
car
batteries back in the early 80's. I went through complete sets of batteries in
as little
as 6 months, because the car would suck 1000 amps from the batteries, warp the
plates, and
severely damage them. Switching over to Optima AGMs lowered the cost for mile,
big time,
and, dramatically improved performance in all aspects, and....drum roll,
delivered more
range per charge under spirited type driving conditions.
> I can't say that's
> necessarily true for every case, but in many cases, perhaps most cases, the
> per-mile cost will be significantly lower.
I 'can' say, that there's no way the cost per mile will be lower 'if' the EV
that uses
these golf car batteries has the same level of performance as an EV based on
high power
AGMs. The only way the cost per mile thing works as David says, is again, if
the converted
EV is an over-weight slug-mobile.
> That comes with an important caveat, though. If you're the kind of driver
> who treats the accelerator pedal like an on-off switch <g>, in many cases
> AGMs will give you longer life and better range. They are a good bit more
> forgiving of "amp abuse" than most golf car batteries are.
OK, we agree here...whew!
> Hawkers are not
> long lived batteries unless they have somewhat special treatment. They
> really need regular high current charging, on the order of 1c or more IIRC,
> or they tend to lose capacity long before they should.
Yes, perhaps that's why they and also Optimas give great life for those of us
who like to
go to the dark side of EVing as we crest over the 1000 amp discharge mark
often, and,
hammer the pack with high current chargers.
> John's experiences are a kick to read about, and certainly Hawkers and
> Optimas have served him well. They satisfy his thirst for huge amounts of
> raw power - that's their forte.
May I submit, that there are more and more younger EVers coming into our fold
who will not
accept the dismal performance that a 1200 lb. pack of batteries coupled to a
400-500 amp
controller gives. These newbies expect their EV conversions to at least be on
par with a
regular gas car's performance.
> But there are quite a few other EVers who have been and probably will be
> appreciably
> better served by good old workhorse golf car batteries. Don't sell 'em
> short: they're not flashy, but they work.
This is true. I still recommend a set of good 'ol wet cells as an affordable
way to get an
EV on the road, far more than I do AGMs and a high dollar controller. I've
built many,
many 120V wet cell powered EVs, and don't forget, I also had Red Beastie. I
will not,
however, paint with a broad brush and make statements that proclaim flooded
golf car
batteries give high range and high life, because they can only do this under
special
conditions, conditions that I maintain, aren't for everyone and certainly aren't
representative of an EV that is acceptable in terms of performance to most
folks used to
today's gas cars.
>
> > The reason someone will say "try golf cart bats.", is that of all
> > the flooded lead acid types available, only the golf car battery is
> > a true deep cycle ...
>
> Once again I must respectfully disagree. There are many other flooded lead
> batteries that are true deep cycle types - John works with some of them
> every day, in fact; they're in the forklifts he services!
Of course I know this. I thought it was obvious, that the discussion concerned
batteries
of similar size and weight as used in EV conversions.
> The 12 volt flooded batteries commonly sold as floor sweeper batteries are
> also true deep cycle types, and they've been used with reasonable success in
> some EVs, though at a higher per-mile cost than golf car batteries.
Um, not true. Again, I speak from experience. I've used floor scrubber 12V wet
cells, the
most well known conversion the '65 Mustang I helped design and build. I also
see them in
my line of work as a forklift wrench, as I also occasionally service floor
scrubbers. Most
all the customers I know, however, long ago abandoned the 12V scrubber
batteries and have
switched back to good 'ol Trojan T-105 6 volters. Compared to the golf car
batteries that
deliver about twice the cycle life, the floor scrubber 12V models are not true
deep cycle
types. Yes, they're better than RV or marine type 12V batteries, but they're
still out of
their league when compared to golf car batteries.
> The L16
> batteries often used in PV systems are also true deep cycle batteries,
> though they're probably too heavy for any road EV but a huge truck.
To repeat.....I thought it was obvious, that the discussion concerned batteries
of similar
size and weight as used in EV conversions. I stand by what I said, in that
when comparing
batteries for use in a conversion type EV, only the golf car battery is a true
deep cycle
wet cell.
6V Flooded batteries do have their place. They're affordable and offer high ahr
capacity
if and only if, their discharge currents are kept on the low side of things.
One has to be ready to accept an EV that is heavy, cumbersome, slow on
acceleration, and
has poor hill climbing ability. One also has to be ready to accept battery
maintenance,
corrosion, and loss of space utility in the vehicle to make room for 20 or more
BIG
batteries that need to be accessible for watering and routine cleansing of
corroded parts.
I will not chime in with Lee or anyone else though, and proclaim that this type
of battery
has higher life and higher range per charge over other types of lead acid
batteries
without loudly pointing out these important parameters that come along with the
package.
In closing.....one of my forklift work buddies commutes 40 miles to work, then
40 miles
back home. He wants to build an affordable electric vehicle that can be
opportunity
charged at work before the drive back home. He doesn't need a tire burner, will
accept
tepid performance, and needs range, range, range. His budget doesn't include
expensive
batteries or an expensive high amp'n controller. I've recommended a 120V pickup
conversion
using 20 Trojan 6 volt batteries. Another work buddy is also going to build
himself an
EV...he's ridden in Blue Meanie and has been bitten by EV high
performance....I've
recommended Optimas, Orbitals, and Deka Intimidators as candidates for his 192V
pack for
his lowered and tricked-out Ghia siting in his driveway, and I've also
recommended a Zilla
and a Manzanita Micro charger.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you follow the data sheet, you shouldn't have any problems. The two key
things are, *don't charge when hot* and keep them *distilled watered*, check
every other month. The STM-180 saft manual (download the manual and follow
it) limits start of charging at 40C (104F) batt temp which I have a
thermistor epoxied to the mid top of a representative battery and have a
3/4" gap in between longways mounting. But with all my batteries sprinkled
around in separate exposed (1.5" angle) brackets underneath the vehicle,
this shouldn't be a problem. A thermostat controlled muffin fan should be
used if the batteries are in an enclosed box. The Connecticut Ni-Cad report
by James M. Sime #CT-2223-1-04-6 said they had a problem in starting the
charger that was limited to 80F ambient (which is set too low, should be
104F batt temp and use muffin fans if needed). The one's I'm testing with
the battery scanner next to the lead batteries are outperforming the lead,
certainly when cold, and stiffer operating voltage, don't sag as much,
greater range, no peuky peukert. The key is to find used cheaper saft
Ni-cads that are about 1/2 used for 1/4th the price and to make sure they
were watered with distilled, rainwater or air conditioner condensed water,
not tap or water softened (salt added) water as minerals added to these
longer lasting batteries will shorten life more-so than lead batteries with
a shorter life inherently. If you get used one's make sure they weren't
charged hot(charger had a hot cutt-off). Used Ni-cads can work out, but
buying used lead batteries is like buying used food.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: I need Nicad batteries
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >These are good batteries. Just be sure you are "up
> >to" the task of
> >properly maintaining them. Many beginning EVers
> >murder their first pack
> >from ignorance and abuse; it would be a shame for
> >this to happen to an
> >expensive pack of nicads.
>
> That's what made me shy away from them, not to mention the
> watering. The promise of power AND range is so darn tempting
> though. With a decently-engineered EV, I could get 60+ miles
> highway out of those BB600 NiCds without that nasty
> Peukert's effect. For a similar cost to Optimas to boot. But
> I know I'd f--- them up, some how, given this is going to be
> my first EV. I'd go SAFT, if they had more power, but they
> don't. 250 amps for a 6V nominal battery will simply not cut
> it. If it was a 12V battery and it remained fairly stiff at
> that draw, then I'd be giving them a look...
>
> I'm worried about the Orbitals or Optimas I will be using,
> no matter how forgiving I hear they are. I'm going to have
> to treat the pack right with a PFC charger. I'm probably not
> going to get Rich Brown performance out of my first EV, but
> I'd eventually like to get it up there, or faster. *eyes
> Otmar's 914 with jeaulosy*
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been to an ice rink in years, but last time, the Zamboni was electric
(since this is California and the year-round rinks are indoors) - isn't
converting a gas-powered Zamboni to electric like doing the same thing to a gas
golf cart, i.e.- is it much cheaper than buying a used electric version?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you,
very informative post
keith
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
OK, but to clarify credentials, I too, have 'many
> years of EV use under my belt'. To be
> able to squeeze 25 miles per charge from just 585
> lbs. of lead (13 Optimas), I believe
> that easily qualifies me also, as a thrifty EVer who
> 'can' be moderate in his driving.
> Keep in mind, that over my 2.5 decades of designing,
> constructing, driving, and racing
> EVs, I've owned my fair share of 96V-120V wet cell
> powered EVs, too. I haven't kept track,
> but I'd estimate I've help design and construct at
> least 50 EVs using golf car batteries.
> I've written in the past, about my relationship with
> 'Sluggo', a way too heavy, lethargic
> 108V wet cell powered 80's era Ford Escort with a
> tepid 400 amp controller...hence the
> name Sluggo! Let me tell ya, David, one definitely
> has to a thrifty EVer who's moderate in
> his driving in order to accept and live with such a
> car.
>
> It's not acceptable for many, that an EV equipped
> with 1200-1500 lbs. of golf car
> batteries, takes 20 seconds to hit 60 mph, or slows
> to 35 mph on moderate hills, or takes
> twice as much distance to stop safely from highway
> speeds. In order for golf car batteries
> to make good on Lee's promise (high range, high
> life), this is what has to take place.
> Packs made up of fewer numbers of these heavy low
> voltage batteries could reduce the
> weight load and thus make handling and braking more
> acceptable, but then the horsepower
> level of such a low voltage pack would be minimal,
> still restricting acceleration, hill
> climbing ability, and top speed. Using a high amp
> controller to wring out more
> performance, say going up from a 500 amp controller
> to a 1000 amp controller, would
> improve these areas but then, take its toll on these
> batteries in a hurry and cause them
> to give far less range per charge and far less cycle
> life. As I stated, the only reason
> they give high range and high cycle life, is that
> they are most always, used as a very
> large and heavy pack, are used with tepid
> controllers that baby the batteries, and fail to
> deliver acceptable performance.
>
> Today's newest EVers want their conversions to
> accelerate, steer, brake, and pull hills
> just like a regular gas car can. Trying to do this
> using traditional golf car batteries is
> all but impossible. If one states that these
> batteries can deliver high range and high
> life, then one should also state all the things one
> must give up in order to achieve these
> benchmarks. You just can't compare other batteries
> that 'can' deliver acceleration,
> steering, braking, and effortless hill climbing
> power like a regular gas car can, to golf
> car batteries that can't do any of this, then
> proclaim that golf car batteries are better
> at high range and high life. The truth still is,
> that if an EV conversion that delivers
> acceleration, steering, braking, and effortless hill
> climbing power like a regular gas car
> is the goal, under this criteria, golf car batteries
> don't cut it, and, won't be better at
> anything at all...including range and cycle life.
>
> > They will also deliver MUCH lower cost per mile
> than AGMs.
>
> Only if you design and build a s-l-o-w, poky EV.
> Try designing, building, and driving an
> EV conversion using golf car batteries that matches
> the stunning performance of an
> AGM/high amp controller based EV, and see what that
> cost per mile goes up to! I've already
> done it. Blue Meanie used to be powered by the
> approximate same weight in golf car
> batteries back in the early 80's. I went through
> complete sets of batteries in as little
> as 6 months, because the car would suck 1000 amps
> from the batteries, warp the plates, and
> severely damage them. Switching over to Optima AGMs
> lowered the cost for mile, big time,
> and, dramatically improved performance in all
> aspects, and....drum roll, delivered more
> range per charge under spirited type driving
> conditions.
>
> > I can't say that's
> > necessarily true for every case, but in many
> cases, perhaps most cases, the
> > per-mile cost will be significantly lower.
>
> I 'can' say, that there's no way the cost per mile
> will be lower 'if' the EV that uses
> these golf car batteries has the same level of
> performance as an EV based on high power
> AGMs. The only way the cost per mile thing works as
> David says, is again, if the converted
> EV is an over-weight slug-mobile.
>
> > That comes with an important caveat, though. If
> you're the kind of driver
> > who treats the accelerator pedal like an on-off
> switch <g>, in many cases
> > AGMs will give you longer life and better range.
> They are a good bit more
> > forgiving of "amp abuse" than most golf car
> batteries are.
>
> OK, we agree here...whew!
>
> > Hawkers are not
> > long lived batteries unless they have somewhat
> special treatment. They
> > really need regular high current charging, on the
> order of 1c or more IIRC,
> > or they tend to lose capacity long before they
> should.
>
> Yes, perhaps that's why they and also Optimas give
> great life for those of us who like to
> go to the dark side of EVing as we crest over the
> 1000 amp discharge mark often, and,
> hammer the pack with high current chargers.
>
> > John's experiences are a kick to read about, and
> certainly Hawkers and
> > Optimas have served him well. They satisfy his
> thirst for huge amounts of
> > raw power - that's their forte.
>
> May I submit, that there are more and more younger
> EVers coming into our fold who will not
> accept the dismal performance that a 1200 lb. pack
> of batteries coupled to a 400-500 amp
> controller gives. These newbies expect their EV
> conversions to at least be on par with a
> regular gas car's performance.
>
> > But there are quite a few other EVers who have
> been and probably will be appreciably
> > better served by good old workhorse golf car
> batteries. Don't sell 'em
> > short: they're not flashy, but they work.
>
> This is true. I still recommend a set of good 'ol
> wet cells as an affordable way to get an
> EV on the road, far more than I do AGMs and a high
> dollar controller. I've built many,
> many 120V wet cell powered EVs, and don't forget, I
> also had Red Beastie. I will not,
> however, paint with a broad brush and make
> statements that proclaim flooded golf car
> batteries give high range and high life, because
> they can only do this under special
> conditions, conditions that I maintain, aren't for
> everyone and certainly aren't
> representative of an EV that is acceptable in terms
> of performance to most folks used to
> today's gas cars.
>
> >
> > > The reason someone will say "try golf cart
> bats.", is that of all
> > > the flooded lead acid types available, only the
> golf car battery is
> > > a true deep cycle ...
> >
> > Once again I must respectfully disagree. There
> are many other flooded lead
> > batteries that are true deep cycle types - John
> works with some of them
> > every day, in fact; they're in the forklifts he
> services!
>
> Of course I know this. I thought it was obvious,
> that the discussion concerned batteries
> of similar size and weight as used in EV
> conversions.
>
> > The 12 volt flooded batteries commonly sold as
> floor
=== message truncated ===
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
when i first bought my electric fiat spyder, it had a dead set of YTs in
it, and i was tempted to try and throw in some golf cart batteries
instead, in order to save money. luckily it would have been much more
work to convert it over to floodeds than to just replace the YTs, so i
figured i'd splurge and go with the YT replacement pack, at least for
this time.
the first time i stepped on the accelerator after replacing the battery
pack, i knew i'd never again even dream of putting flooded batteries in
there. which is probably a good thing, because john wayland had helped
design this car, and probably would have had a heart attack had i ruined
the performance on it. now i've got rudman regs on it, and if i can just
get the PFC30 ive got sitting in my basement installed, i'll be well set up!
i'm lucky that i live 5 miles from work, and rarely need to go more than
10-15 miles anywhere. a friend of mine who works in the same building
lives 40 miles away, and while my car may get a few envious glances from
him, it would never work. that kind of distance would kill the 20 YTs.
it's great to see these discussions between two of the giants of the EV
list. i learn more reading posts here than i ever thought i'd know.
--travis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen wrote:
If you bring it to a machinist, they probably can. It is probably an
involute spline, which can be looked up in the Machinery's Handbook
(Industrial Press) if you take a few measurements. If course, bringing
the clutch disc to the machinist is probably easier than a transmission.
If it is a common hot rodded car then speed shops may also know.
While looking in my "Machinist's Handbook", I couldn't find standard
spline sizes, but I found some interesting information such as:
The maximum torque for a 1" involute spline (case-hardened) is 10,000
lb-inches of torque ~830ft*lbs
2-inch involute spline: 100,000 lb-in (8300 ft-lb)
Sorry I couldn't find exact numbers on types of splines. I think it'll
have to measured as there are formulae here for quantifying a spline
size, but no predefined sizes.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all,
For those of you who don't know, I sold my 59 Henney Kilowatt a couple
of months ago. My 28 mile round trip was not doable as the weather
becomes colder and my war for a charging station was well and truely
lost, so I sold her to a Psychology professor at the University of
Georgia in Atlanta.
I still strongly believe in electrics. I WANT another one (even tho I
am on the waiting list to buy a Smart Car). But I'm having a hard time
justifying the purchase to both myself and my wife.
Right now, my commute is 28 miles round trip. I occationally have to
run errands on lunch that add up to another 10-15 miles.
So, right now I need a car that can do about 45 miles in *any* weather.
Now in Charlotte, NC the winters are mild, and usually we don't see many
days below 20 degrees F (low) and the highs are usually in the 40-50
range. Of that 28 mile round trip about 6 is 55mph "highway" speed and
the rest is 45 or less "city" driving.
If this was all I need, I know there are lots of cars out there that
could handle it, the real issue is my planned move to my other
property. Now we have been planning this move for years, and we HOPE
to do it in the next year or so, but who knows.
Once I move my commute will drasticly change. It will go to a 75 mile
round trip with about 1/2 of that being 55 zone and the rest being
"city" driving. That would mean a car that has a range of 90 miles in
*any* weather (without recharging) *AND* that can go about 40 miles of
that at "highway" speed.
Lots of people on this list have said "100 mpc cars are here now". But
when I read through the EV photo album I see 30mpc, 50 mpc 75mpc, etc.
I have not seen (or if I have I don't remember) any car with a 100mpc,
or even 90, or 80.
So am I spitting into the wind or is this possible to do. Now by
possible, I mean can it be done for a price that I can afford to pay. I
know if I wanted to spend 20k on a Lithium Ion or other "Superpack" I
could do it. But I'd like to do the whole project for not more than
10-12k (plus the donor car).
So am I dreaming?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James, The 100mpc EVs are here, in the production models. The automakers *can*
make 100mpc EVs, but only a very limited number have been produced (~5000), and
an even smaller number have been sold (~300). And the EVs sold are almost all
in California, due to the state ZEV mandate, while it was in place. The
conversions *might* be able to pull out ~100mpc for a rally, but not for daily
usage. Just need to keep pushing the automakers to deliver the goods. -Ed
Thorpe--- On Wed 12/22, James Jarrett < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:...Lots
of people on this list have said "100 mpc cars are here now". But when I read
through the EV photo album I see 30mpc, 50 mpc 75mpc, etc. I have not seen (or
if I have I don't remember) any car with a 100mpc, or even 90, or 80....James
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ummm, guys, I read that post, and it would technically
include a DCP 300W DCDC converter-- we _are_ after
all, recharging the low voltage system as well...
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=74
also check out www.realclimate.org
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James,
Bruce Parmeter put one together last year. Don't know where the link is...
Also, the Vancouver BC (Canada) group - VEVA - has produced an EV calendar for
the past 3-4 years.
-Ed Thorpe
EBEAA
--- On Tue 12/21, James Massey wrote:
Hi all
Last year someone (I can't remember who, but thanks again) did us a great EV
favour by producing a calender of EV photos. It has been a great talking point
in our lunchroom at work, and since it is nearly finished, does anyone have a
calender for next year in the works?
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
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Hi James, Dave Koehn from VEVA has a 2005 calendar. He has been collecting
pictures of local (more or less) electric vehicles for about the past 5
years and then putting a calendar together. The emphasis is on cars but
there are bikes, trains and a few other odd contraptions. I am not sure how
many extra copies were printed but I am sure there are a few, generally we
take orders in Sep so we know roughly how many to print. They are $19.00CDN
+ mailing costs. Dave is away until January but if you drop me a line at
'info @ veva.bc.ca' I can put you on to him if you like. Please put VEVA
Calendar in the subject line so it does not get trashed as junk :-(.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of EAA-contact
Sent: December 21, 2004 6:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV calender
JamesBruce Parmeter put one together last year. Don't know where the link
is... Also, the Vancouver BC (Canada) group - VEVA - has produced an EV
calendar for the past 3-4 years. -Ed ThorpeEBEAA--- On Tue 12/21, James
Massey < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From: James Massey [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Wed, 22 Dec 2004
12:38:28 +1100Subject: EV calenderHi allLast year someone (I can't remember
who, but thanks again) did us a great EV favour by producing a calender of
EV photos. It has been a great talking point in our lunchroom at work, and
since it is nearly finished, does anyone have a calender for next year in
the works?ThanksJames MasseyLaunceston, Tasmania, Australia
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
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James,
The 100mpc EVs are here, in the production models.
The automakers *can* make 100mpc EVs, but only a very limited number have been
produced (~5000), and an even smaller number have been sold (~300).
And the EVs sold are almost all in California, due to the state ZEV mandate,
while it was in place.
A conversions *might* be able to pull out ~100mpc for a rally, but not for
daily usage. Just need to keep pushing the automakers to deliver the goods.
-Ed Thorpe
--- On Wed 12/22, James Jarrett wrote:
...
Lots of people on this list have said "100 mpc cars are here now". But when I
read through the EV photo album I see 30mpc, 50 mpc 75mpc, etc. I have not seen
(or if I have I don't remember) any car with a 100mpc, or even 90, or 80
....
James
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
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Deuville's Rink wrote:
Hi from Canada it's been a few years since I last subscribed to the ev list. at
that time I was converting a massey 135 tractor over to electric and the
assistance I received from the group was great. That conversion can be viewed
here http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/196.html my second conversion was a HDB
Zamboni viewed here
http://www.canev.com/Customers/Zamboni/Zamboni.html
I am now converting a model 400 as it is smaller and has a sharper turning radius then the HDB, I am having a hard time locating a motor. The 400 has a ford gas motor that drives a sundstrand series 18 hydrostatic transmission with the hydraulic pump piggybacking on the trans, after talking with a sundstrand rep he believes that a 20 hp motor would work. I am looking for a 20 hp, 72 Volt dc motor at around 3000 rpm , I believe it will have to be a shunt or compound motor as it will be on all the time with speed/direction control of the Zamboni done with the transmission. It is the shunt or compound issue that I am having trouble with, lots of series traction motors but I need more rpm control then starting torque.
Anyone have any suggestions or ideas?
Thanks
Ellery
What sort of controller, if any, are you using?
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
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Thanks for the good news Lawrence. Maybe he will try selling an image of an
EV on a ten year old piece of toast next :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
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Mike Chancey wrote:
> For anyone interested in using a hair dryer as a heat source you
> might want to check out a switch I ran across at, of all places,
> Home Depot. I was shocked to notice they carry those old style
> surface mount light switches, and that they are still AC/DC rated.
http://www.levitonproducts.com/Catalog/Model_1210.htm?SID=V8RG5A7FCQGS8PADTG4AQB6HRTUU6R53&PID=1208
Yep! That's the old classic light switch found in grandpa's basement or
garage. They were designed in the days of Tom Edison's 110 volt DC
power.
There are a couple other types from that era that are still available
(either used, or as new old stock -- a dusty box found in the back of
someone's warehouse). One is a round switch, with a knob that your
rotate 1/4 turn to switch it on/off. They are also rated 120v or 240v DC
10a (depending on the model).
Another common type is a normal-sized wall switch that mounts just like
a modern home light switch inside the wall; except that it has round
"on" and and "off" buttons.
Another is a normal-looking wall switch with the same type of lever and
mounting as a modern home light switch. But the part inside the wall is
a huge ceramic body, with large contacts that have a huge off-spacing
(over 1/4").
All these types work on DC because they have snap-acting contacts (make
a substantial "clack!" when switched), and huge off-state contact
spacings (typically over 1/4").
I have one of this last type with DPST 240v DC 10a contacts, and a few
of the rotary-type SPST 240v DC 10a contacts if anyone needs one.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Actually I mailed to soon. David Roden pointed out it does still come up.
The link I followed must have been broken or ebay glitched, if you enter the
item number it's still there.
Not only is it still up at $1,275 but that is for blueprints only with some
suggestion there is patentable technology behind it.
I was tempted to contact the current top bidder to ask what interest he has
until I saw that he last _sold_ 'free' plans from Mechanics Illustrated he
photo copied on anti-duplicating paper (for copyright reasons) for a Loud
Mouth Jet Turbine Engine for $55.
Oh well as P.T. Barnum use to say...
Ttul, Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: December 22, 2004 9:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
Thanks for the good news Lawrence. Maybe he will try selling an image of an
EV on a ten year old piece of toast next :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
> It's gone - removed by eBay...
>
> Lawrence
>
> <snip>
>
>
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I have no need for a controller, on my present conversion I just have a relay,
the motor runs all the time with hydraulics controlling both speed and
direction as well as the hydraulics for the augars that pick up snow, empty
snowtank and steering, most ev motors are series traction and they will run
wild if there is no load hense I need the rpm control that a compound will
provide, While I could use a controller it would be an added cost and then
there is the failure issue that I do not have with just a relay (well not as
severe)
Ellery
The HB conversion cost about $5,000 (including the cost of used Zamboni) while
a new Electric Machine will set you back about $130,000.
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Maybe we could get an EVer in the area to check it out.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chimer Clark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:00 PM
Subject: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
ebay item #4512963146
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4512963146&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
300HP electric motor that operates from 2 car
batteries, no plugging it in and no solar panels.
Fully self contained and self charging. At last look
the bidding for plans only is up to $1026. Why did I
have to be born with a conscience? What a great scam.
Just thought you all might like a look
Chimer
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Let's stop here...we are in total agreement.
See Ya......John Wayland
Glad you guys could agree but efficiency is a key to another style of ev.
Cedric Lynch & his amazing motorcycle. Some would call it a motor bicycle
but it only draws 2 hp at 60mph. He seems to get a range of 80 miles with
just 4 Optimas with this rig. Since it is a recumbent and fully faired it
uses sealed batteries and still delivers great range. John also has a very
efficient rig in Blue meanie. For it's size and weight he doesn't do bad.
The desire is speed, range and a small pack.
This determines the rig. It's just math. You want to go 100 miles? 6
optimas should do it. You just need to build a rig around the components
that is light enough and slippery enough to do it. Lawrence Rhodes....
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> If someone were to take an older car and convert it, then apply
> for a new VIN to re-title as a *new* electric car, then it meets
> the provision of the law and the purchaser can take a deduction
> based on the cost differential of the electric car vs. a
> comparable ICE car. The key here is that for all intents and
> purposes this is to be considered a NEW CAR, so it must be
> titled as a 2004 ClunnCar model Electric or a 2004 Sharons-Hope
> Electric or somesuch.
Exactly.
Steve Clunn wrote:
> You make it sound so easy :-)
> I'm told I can get a salvage title for it, but will have to take
> it in to have it inspected. I'm wondering if anybody has done this?
> It's a little bit of a Catch-22; I wouldn't convert a car till
> I had a title for it, and they want to inspect it before giving
> it a title. Maybe retitling it as you say might be the way.
Yes, I've done it. You're right; it is a kind of Catch-22. They inspect
it *after* you're done, and may very well come up with additional things
you need to do.
Each state has its own regulations for titling a car. They are written
on the assumption that you are RE-titling an existing car, usually one
that has been wrecked and is being pieced back together with a variety
of new and used parts from other cars. So, the inspector is comparing it
to the same car as it was produced by a factory. They look for all the
original equipment (seat belts, lights, etc.) and check serial numbers
of the engine, transmission, body, etc. to see if you used stolen parts.
This part it easy, because you know what to expect.
But, if it is a unique vehicle (EV conversion, hot rod, dune buggy,
antique), things get more interesting. The inspector doesn't know what
he's looking for. He can't compare it to any existing car.
So, most states have a published list of things the vehicle must have to
be able to be titled. It is generally a *far* less stringent list than
the federal standards a real auto manufacturer faces; and *far* more
open to interpretation.
The vehicles I titled were in New York and Michigan. Each state had a
2-4 page list of "required equipment" that the inspector would look for.
Things like:
- windshield; must be marked as safety glass
- windshield wiper(s) and washer(s)
- seats and seat belts
- headlights, taillights, turn lights; must have DOT marking
- "adequate" brakes
- tires rated for the speed and weight involved
- exhaust system
In addition, there will be some kind of catch-all clause that leaves it
up to the discretion of the inspector. Something like "must be able to
be operated in a safe manner".
So, get this list from you local Dept. of Motor Vehicles. Build your EV
to meet them, as you understand them. Make an appointment to get the
vehicle inspected. Be very nice and cooperative, and hope he's having a
good day.
I generally had fairly little trouble passing these inspections, though
it always took a second re-inspection. It's as if they feel they *have*
to find something to criticise, and will only be happy once you'v fixed
it. For example, the Michigan inspector made me affix a phony exhaust
pipe to my EV!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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