EV Digest 4012
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wire burnout on the Power Wheels
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Blueprinting electric motors
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Charge Profile for Gel Batts
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Torque converters for DD EV's, Re: KISS AC EV Drive System
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Hydro caps, Re: "very important that you allow the battery to gas"?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New 600-1,000 amp controllers, Was: Controller overvoltage headroom,
Re: TS cell info
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Torque converters for DD EV's, Re: KISS AC EV Drive System
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) sam's club agm "nascar" batteries
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Former EV1 Drivers/LA AutoShow Tickets
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: sam's club agm "nascar" batteries
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: sam's club agm "nascar" batteries
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hydro caps, Re: "very important that you allow the battery to gas"?
by Tom Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think a variac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > I've backed down from three strings of NiCads in the truck. Going
> > one string in a recumbent motorcycle. I've seen some higher voltage
> > drill gun chargers that might work. I think.
>
> Just remember that 99% of consumer chargers are designed to be cheap,
> cheap, and cheap. They have no interest or incentive to make them work
> well. Most of these chargers will slowly murder your batteries.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think a variac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
>
> Joe Smalley
I know for the STM MR-MRE batteries SAFT recommends C/5 to 1.63V/cell then C/20
with no voltage limit (usually to 1.8V/cell). What if you just set the voltage
to give you C/20 and adjust as needed to maintain that rate? Using C/5 would
take intense babysitting, then drop to C/20 and more watching. Not for the
unobservant or forgetful! An e-meter/Link-10 would be a neccessity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > This is where we disagree. If the charger turns down below a
> > useful current when the first monoblock got full, the other
> > monoblocks in the string WILL NOT get full. In order to get
> > the bottom ones full, you need to put current into them. The
> > full one will not let the charger put out meaningful current.
> > To get the bottom ones to charge fully, the current has to
> > come up. Without regulators, the full monoblock current is
> > limited either by the recombination capability of the full
> > battery.
>
> I think that mostly what we disagree on is our definition of
> 'meaningful' current.
>
> As long as *any* (OK, almost any ;^) current at all is passed through
> the less full monoblocks, they will charge and will eventually become
> full, but I agree totally that without regulators the amount of current
> you can provide to the less full modules is limited by the recombination
> capability of the full module.
This point can be taken several different ways. I have always wondered what
current is appropriate for floating PbA batteries below which they are not
charging. I realize that current will vary with chemistry, temperature and
age. Manufacturers of NiMh batteries do not recommend float charging NiMh
cells because there is a minimum current necessary for charging to occur. If
less than that current is available, they just get warm but do not charge. I
have not understood the mechanism, but I respect their opinion.
> > If you want to put more current through the string
> > to reduce the charge time, a bypass path is necessary to
> > prevent drying out the high battery.
>
> Agreed. All I propose is that they are not essential to properly
> charging an AGM when the shortest possible charge time is not a
> priority.
Agreed.
> > My experience is that it takes too long to achieve
> > equalization without the shunt regulators. You very likely
> > may have more patience than Madman Rudman.
>
> I suspect you are correct ;^>
>
> > It is a matter of opinion whether you want to blow off the
> > excess energy equalizing a series string in a) the internal
> > recombination or b) in shunt regulators. I have done battery
> > packs both ways. I don't usually have the patience to do it
> > the slow way, but sometimes I do. When I don't have the
> > patience, I use regulators. Your opinion may be different.
>
> Nope; we agree: if short charge time is the priority, then regs are a
> solution.
The other solutions proposed are 1) a Balancer that can be switched around
to charge each battery invidually or 2) Modular chargers that put the final
few AHr into each monoblock.
> > My experience is that an Orbital and an Optima click their
> > pressure vents at under an amp. I don't like that. Your
> > experience may be different.
>
> Again, our experiences (mine not with Orbitals yet) concur. I also
> don't like to hear my Optima's venting.
I used Optimas and Hawkers for years. Many are still in use now.
> Just to muddy the waters, last night I pulled a neglected YT from under
> my bench and put it on a bench supply to top it up. It has been sitting
> for some months, and I recently discovered that it's resting voltage was
> just 11.5V (ack!). Shortly after midnight, after several hours at 2A,
> its voltage was up to 13.5V or so, so I adjusted the voltage limit on
> the supply down to a "safe" 14.3V from the original 14.7V I'd set and
> went to bed. At 6:30am I checked on it and found it sitting at 14.3V
> and *well* under 2A (the analog meter showed no noticable current), and
> venting profusely! Not clicking its vents, but a steady gentle hissing.
> I disconnected the supply and then decided to measure what the current
> was: 0.22A @ 14.1V. None of the cells were detectably warmer than
> ambient (~10-15C) and about 2hrs after removing the supply the terminal
> voltage had settled to 12.97V.
>
> So, here is a YT that vents profusely at just 14.3V and <0.25A; regs set
> to 14.5 or 14.7 or 14.8V wouldn't do a damn thing to protect this
> battery and if set much lower than this you are suggesting that the
> batteries would not be fully charged. It seems that with or without
> regs, there will likely always be some monoblocks that are too far out
> of line to be charged without some degree of abuse.
When a pack gets this neglected, I normally use a one hour time-out at end
of charge to terminate the charge early. I then run it down at least 10% of
nameplate and charge it up again. The second cycle has a noticeably shorter
absorption phase.
The Sonnneschein factory engineer called the effect "storage latency." That
term seems to fit very well with the symptoms. He told me to run a couple
cycles on them before installation in the target system. Sometimes we get
batteries from different build dates and they show some very obvious
deviations from each other. If they don't pull back into line within three
cycles, we return them to exchange them for another lot that match each
other much better. By matching the batteries before installation, we raised
the life expectancy from less than 18 months to over three years (the most
recent batch are still in service).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have your measured the voltage across your flooded batteries?
Do they get up to 14.5 volts per pair?
Are the dual strings in buddy pairs?
Does the charger go over 43.5 volts?
If your flooded batteries never get up to ~14.5 volts and they are in buddy
pairs, the Hawkers are safe without regs.
It would be worse if the timer NEVER worked and the finish voltage was over
45 volts on every cycle.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> Ok Rich, I'm convinced. I'd like to try three regs for an evil assignment.
>
> These regs will be used on my most whacked set of Hawkers, charged in
> parallel with six T105's by an Elec-Trak with the dumbest charger in the
> universe: A transformer, 2 diodes, and a timer that sticks sometimes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> Correct me if I am wrong, but once the PFC hits its voltage setpoint,
> isn't the charge control limited to setting how long the timer lets the
> charger run before shutting it down? If the PFC interprets the reg
> cutback signal as essentially meaning that the pack has hit the voltage
> setpoint, then the result would for sure be undercharged modules since
> it will stop charging after a fixed duration instead of continuing until
> all modules are full.
The charger receives no indication that the last module has reached final
voltage. The operator needs to total up all the regulator voltages to
determine the final target voltage for the pack. As more regs reach trigger
voltage the pack voltage increases until it plateaus. It can take quite a
long time for this to happen. That is what Rich is watching on the Orbitals
with each successive cycle. The first time, he had about three regs that
were holding the charger back. Each cycle, the absorption phase is taking
less time and the end voltage is higher with more regs participating in the
blink ritual. Earlier this week, He noticed that the batteries sitting on
the concrete floor were behaving different than the ones on the wood shelf.
His plan was to put all of them on wood to reduce the thermal difference
between the monoblocks to try to get them to play well together. I have not
heard if it made a difference.
> > The senario you are outlining is Reg protection
> > without the bypass capability. Sounds like what happens when
> > you run loadless Regs without the external loads hooked up.
> > Been there ....
> > The end result is the over voltaged regs shut the charger
> > down... END of charge. You just end up waiting for the
> > Stiffest smallest Monoblock to have to conduct all the
> > current needed to fill the Largest lowest state of charge
> > battery in the string. Your end of charge point is now locked up.
>
> We may differ in our definition of 'shut the charger down'. If you are
> charging at 80A when the first module's reg fires, you certainly
> shouldn't have to go to 0A to get that module below the threshold again.
> When the reg signals the charger to yank back, I am assuming it yanks
> back just as much as is required to get the reg back off.
>
> What I expect is that if the cutback signal and charger response are
> implemented well, then the charger would run flat out until the first
> sensor/reg signals and would then taper the output current so as to
> maintain the *maximum* charge rate possible while keeping the cutback
> signal inactive. This might, as you suggest, result in a really steep
> taper.
No, the reg feedback line is not inactive. We are trying for about a 30% to
60% blink rate.
Yes, the current ramp rate gets really steep.
> One of two things will happen: either the current will cutback to a low
> level that continues to charge the less full modules while keeping the
> cutback signal off; or, the current will cutback to a low enough level
> that the charger simply holds that current regardless of the cutback
> signal because it has been determined that at that charge rate damage to
> the full modules will be minimal.
>
> Let's not restrict ourselves to what the present behaviour of the PFC or
> any other charger is, but rather let's think about the behaviour we
> could achieve.
That is where we are.
> > So Roger.... how many times have you charged a 10 Block
> > string of AGM????
>
> Is there something magic about the number 10? My experience is
> primarily with shorter strings, like 6 modules, which is still plenty
> long enough to see varying module voltages.
Longer strings have a higher probability of deviation. Most of the problems
we have seen are experienced above 96 volts.
> > Even with solid voltage regulation on the entire string.
> > Say 191 +- .5 volts. It is almost impossible to get all the
> > batteries to rise above 14.8. Some do some don't, and with
> > out regs acouple never will.
>
> OK; let's consider this then. You've just stated that with or without
> regs, some modules will not/never rise above 14.8V. So, what is so
> special about getting the batteries to or above 14.8V? Once you get the
> battery gassing its terminal voltage tells you little if anything about
> its SOC; mostly it tells you about the recombination efficiency.
Something about positive grid corrosion causing problems when the battery is
undercharged. I think it was Optima that stressed that each monoblock will
deteriorate if it was not taken over gassing voltage occasionally.
> > > What you seem to be describing here (non-bypassed modules
> > > charging at 3A) is the constant current finish portion (or
> > > the very tail end of the absorption), such that the charger
> > > is pumping a constant 3A into the string and the active
> > > reg(s) are locked full on so that the bypassed modules are
> > > seeing *no* charge current.
> >
> > Umm Really no current???? If you say so. But the battery
> > continues to take some charge current, Just what it wants,
>
> Hang on, Rich; Joe wrote:
>
> > With regulators installed on each monoblock, the 15.0 will be
> > clamped to ~14.5 to keep it from gassing excessively while
> > the other monoblocks continue charging at 3 amps.
>
> Which tells me that the charger is pushing 3A into the pack, and
> therefore this is the current going into the modules whose regs are
> inactive.
>
> My response was written as a question, seeking confirmation that the
> situation for the active reg(s) is as Joe seemed to be implying, which
> is that one or more of the active regs was full on. If the regs can
> bypass up to 3A and the charger is being held back to 3A, this suggests
> that at least one reg is locked on, and therefore preventing its module
> from seeing *any* charge current. If this were not the case, then the
> charger could pump more than 3A into the string and the active regs
> would just run at a higher duty cycle to keep the charger current
> through the protected modules the same.
>
> Joe later clarified that a 1-2A finish rate is used rather than a 3A
> rate, so that the regs are blinking rather than locked on.
The difference is in the implementation. We are presently trying the lower
current with the feedback into the charger. The earlier (non feedback)
method was the full three amps. The older method required the user to set
the pack voltage very accurately whereas the 'software in the loop' method
presently being used does not require the voltage setpoint to be accurately
set by the user. It is simpler to set up and maintain as well as safer for
the battery.
> > Yea really long durations... like days....
> > Nice if you are doing emergency lighting and UPS work,
> > Where you have months on your hands.
> > Not so nice if your client is standing around twiddling
> > his thumbs and wants to get back to Work before dinner time.
>
> UPS charging assumes constant voltage, and yes this can translate to
> 48hrs or more for a full charge. The whole point of the constant
> current finish phase we EVers typically use is to accelerate this, and I
> may be suggesting that perhaps a non-reg approach is to hold the current
> at the highest rate possible without the highest voltage module going
> over our 'safe' threshold, and once the current falls to a suitably low
> level, switch to a constant current finish to bring them all to full.
This is a perfectly valid approach. It costs less and takes longer to
perform. If you have the time, you can save some money doing it that way.
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1. The ending voltage of the charge indicates the relative state of charge
of THAT BATTERY . It is kind of like 'how much of the lead sulfate has been
put into solution?' If a battery is charged to 14.2 volts at 2 amps it is
less fully charged than of THAT BATTERY charged to 14.2 volts at .25 amps.
Typically, I have found a healthy AGM can go to 15 volts at .2 amps. Many
will not go this high at that low of a current. Sometimes it is too old or
too Sulfated. As the battery ages, the end voltage will go down. Sometimes
the capacity goes down while the end voltage stays up. You are correct, the
end voltage by itself is not a good indicator of state of charge. Once you
run a test at a known current and know the behavior of THAT BATTERY on a
previous cycle, you can predict the state of charge of THAT BATTERY fairly
accurately.
2. Only when the test is run on a known battery at a known current does the
voltage represent something useful. Doing a test on an old Optima may not
properly represent what a new Orbital should do. They may match well and
they may not. Rich was writing about his experience with his new Orbitals
because that is what is on the test bench right now. So far, he has found
two of the 20 have about 17% less capacity than the other 18. When they are
broken in, he wants to see how well they match each other. So far, they are
getting much better with each cycle. This is judged by the pack voltage at
the end of one hour of regs blinking. I think the pack voltage has gone up
as much as 20 volts at end of charge with 13 blinking instead of only three.
The regs are set up above the gassing voltage whereas the charger is
regulated to keep the current low enough to prevent them from venting.
Please note that gassing and venting are different events on an AGM. Gassing
is OK as long as the battery does not vent.
I agree that some cells within the monoblock will gas more than others to
get all of them to a high state of charge. The trick is to do that, but keep
the monoblock from venting and losing moisture. The longer the string, the
more deviation you will experience (especially if you have more than one
battery box and more than one date of manufacture.)
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> I am watching and learning from this discussion. Well said on both sides,
> gentlemen.
>
> I'm hearing a lot of discussion about balancing voltage on 12 volt modules
> in an EV battery. What I'm NOT hearing from either of you (though I may
> have missed it) is discussion of two issues:
>
> 1. The voltage of the 12v module does not necessarily indicate its real
> state of charge.
>
> 2. Ten or 12 modules, all at nearly the same voltage, may very well have
> cells with widely divergent voltages.
>
> Actually, Roger *almost* brought #1 up when he reported on his YT which
was
> gassing at 14.3 volts and under 3 amps. I'd guess that this module is
> partly sulfated and thus its gassing voltage is lower. At that voltage,
> it's as charged as it's going to get. Roger is at the threshold of this
> issue when he says "regs set to 14.5 or 14.7 or 14.8V wouldn't do a damn
> thing to protect this battery." (OTOH one might argue that it's just
about
> toast already.)
>
> To elaborate on point #2: Cells within a block vary in temperature, from
the
> outside to inside ones. This, and manufacturing tolerances, guarantee
that
> you are always going to have to gas some cells in order to charge others.
> That's a fact of life, no?
>
> Comments? Reactions?
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Americans are satisfied with things because they are large; and
> if not large, they must have cost a great deal of money.
>
> -- Lepel Henry Griffin, ca. 1885
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am charging my SAFT NiCads at C/10 until the threshold voltage is reached
and then some more AHr to stir the electrolyte.
I just finished the Commissioning charge this week and I need to read the
manual to get the correct timing and overcharge requirements for a routine
cycle. If the C/5 power level is REQUIRED, then I will need to get a bigger
charger. My PFC-20 will not put out the 37 amps that the STM-185s need.
Yes, I have a Windows box monitoring and controlling the process.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
> > I think a variac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
>
> I know for the STM MR-MRE batteries SAFT recommends C/5 to 1.63V/cell then
C/20
> with no voltage limit (usually to 1.8V/cell). What if you just set the
voltage
> to give you C/20 and adjust as needed to maintain that rate? Using C/5
would
> take intense babysitting, then drop to C/20 and more watching. Not for the
> unobservant or forgetful! An e-meter/Link-10 would be a neccessity.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:17 AM -0800 1-7-05, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I'm just looking for a solution other than a variac & stopwatch.
Lawrence Rhodes......
Please, at least as a minor step, get rid of the stopwatch and run a
wind up timer.
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0781.html
7014K5 6 hour timer.
Or the high current ones on the same page if you need that.
I'm not proud. I have determined that I am no good at remembering to
set the timer on the microwave when I get in the house after plugging
in. I suspect it's not a common problem with us humans.
After waking up a few times at 4Am with a dreaded imagination of
cooking batteries I bought the above timer and never had to find
clothes at 4 am again.
It's no super charger, but I'd say it's much better than the grey matter timer!
Running is no overrated, but if we can't run we should learn to walk first....
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
(mostly still back ordered, have one Z1K-HV in stock)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
same experience for me (24V), good product and good seller (international
shipment)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: Wire burnout on the Power Wheels
> The Victor contollers that I saw on the IFI Robotics website below all
> appear to require a PWM input signal as provided by a R/C receiver
> output. Did I miss ones that can be controlled by a simple pot input?
>
> Another source:
>
> I have bought both 12V and 24V controllers from Diverse Electronics:
>
> http://divelec.tripod.com/id1.html
>
> and have had good luck with them on a kid sized go-kart. I think they
> would be very suitable for a PowerWheels vehicle too.
>
> have fun!
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Mark Thomasson wrote:
>
> >>Drat. So before I re-wire this, does anyone have any thoughts or
> >>recommendations for a 12 volt electronic speed control? Must be able to
> >>handle 40amps max.
> >>
> >>Thanks!
> >>Chris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >http://www.ifirobotics.com/speed-controller-selection-guide.shtml
> >
> >These controllers were used on a grade school solar vehicle project
> >sponsored by NASA. This will at least give you another example for
> >comparison shopping. Mark T.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm talking major babysitting. No way you could let it go by itself unless
you undervolted it or trickled it. You'd have to be right there when it was
gassing. LR.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
I think a vaiac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I've backed down from three strings of NiCads in the truck. Going
> one string in a recumbent motorcycle. I've seen some higher voltage
> drill gun chargers that might work. I think.
Just remember that 99% of consumer chargers are designed to be cheap,
cheap, and cheap. They have no interest or incentive to make them work
well. Most of these chargers will slowly murder your batteries.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Yes, and sometimes more. My pilot bushing is in the flywheel adapter.
After a initial bell housing dry fitting to see if bell housing adapter will
close the space, if not, just stack up more motor adapters plates. My motor
adapter is 2.5 inches thick which was made by General Electric.
It is best when ordering a electric motor for a EV, specified as a TRACTION
MOTOR and what transmission to be fitted. They then will mill it down a bit
for a good fit if needed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Blueprinting electric motors
> We are all kids, only the toys have changed :-)
>
> I picked up some aluminum plate to make my motor adapter for the 300zx
> this weekend.
> It proved fruitful to show up at 4:30 on a friday with cash in hand, I
> got two "reminents" for a great price. I think he gave me the whole
> piece instead of cutting off what I needed because it was so late.
>
> The list of peopel that want to see this 300zx when I finish is really
> getting long.
>
> I noticed the warp 9 has a large bore in the shaft, Does anyone know if
> that was intended to be clearance for the transmission pilot, I am at a
> minimum of 2.3 inches from transmission to motor face at the moment. Is
> that "normal"
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
>
>
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Thanks for all the feedback on batteries, I have ordered the Deka Gel
batteries from East Penn (8G34M 60Ah) - I hope they work out.
The technical literature for these Gel Batteries is not very good as far as
a charge profile.
It says the charge voltage is 13.70-14.10 V at 20 deg C (68 deg F). The
charge amperage is to be as high as possible up to 20% of the C/20 rate
(C/20 = 60Ah therefore the max charge amperage is 12 Amps.
So at 20 deg C (68 deg F), I will charge at 13.7 Volts per battery at 12
Amps
1. When is charging finished? When amps drop below a certain level? When
voltage drops?
2. When charging is finished, should I put it on a float voltage? It says
the float voltage to be 13.55 volts - but at how many amps?
3. The battery tech literature stresses that the charger **must** be temp
compensated. I have a PFC-30 - do I have to temp compensate manually? I
will have thermally controlled battery warmers, but I suspect it will take
them a while to bring the batteries up to temp.
thanks for the help
Don
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Hi Martin and All,
--- Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > That was what I was hoping for, a locking
> torque
> > converter.
> > If they are fairly tight, losses won't be too
> bad
> > if they have a low coupling speed in a non locking
> > type.
> > I'll see if I can find one at a reasonable
> price.
> > Regretfully I don't think belt type torque
> > converters can handle a series motor's torque.
> > Before too long the continuously variable
> ratio
> > transmissions from Honda, Saturn will be in the
> junk
> > yards, maybe they can be made to work.
> > Thanks,
> > jerry dycus
> >
> >
>
> Sorry I don't know much about automatics. What makes
> the converter out
> of an automatic transmission unsuitable?
>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7944661385&category=63692>
>
> They seem fairly inexpensive, but I don't know what
> work they would
> require to operate.
I'd think that they would need a way to do the
fluid, ect. I don't know what that would entail.
Anyone know how to jerry ;-)) rig one up or which
one is best with a locking system, least hassle to
modify as I know little about them?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
>
>
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I am pretty sure that the SAFT monoblock manual is available online. If
not let me know and I will distribute a PDF. I owe it to Bob Rice
anyways, who bought my 130 BB600 cells and *braided interconnects*
Seth
On Jan 8, 2005, at 4:26 AM, Joe Smalley wrote:
I am charging my SAFT NiCads at C/10 until the threshold voltage is
reached
and then some more AHr to stir the electrolyte.
I just finished the Commissioning charge this week and I need to read
the
manual to get the correct timing and overcharge requirements for a
routine
cycle. If the C/5 power level is REQUIRED, then I will need to get a
bigger
charger. My PFC-20 will not put out the 37 amps that the STM-185s need.
Yes, I have a Windows box monitoring and controlling the process.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
I think a variac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
Joe Smalley
I know for the STM MR-MRE batteries SAFT recommends C/5 to 1.63V/cell
then
C/20
with no voltage limit (usually to 1.8V/cell). What if you just set the
voltage
to give you C/20 and adjust as needed to maintain that rate? Using C/5
would
take intense babysitting, then drop to C/20 and more watching. Not
for the
unobservant or forgetful! An e-meter/Link-10 would be a neccessity.
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Hi Roland and All,
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another way to reduce the water comsumption is to
> install Hydro Cells or
> Back East Solar: Water-Miser Vent Caps -
> http://www.backeastsolar.com/pr_batteries_watermiser
> I had Hydro Cells on my old batteries, but my new
> batteries are higher, and
> should have at least 3 inches of space above the
> batteries.
While these are cool if your charge profile is low
in the gassing state. If gassed too much like we do
with EV's, they can overheat and even melt, causing
problems.
Better would be an auto watering system to make
watering easier like SAFT's ni-cads use.
IIRC, Flowrite is a brand of them for GC types..
>
> Hydro Cell Company said to install a filter air
> input at one end of the
> battery enclosure and a exhaust port at the other
> end using a low CFM
> explosion proof fan to exhaust the air.
>
> This allow air or oxygen to mix with the hydrogen
> inside the battery cap,
> which allow it to return as water.
New O2 isn't needed as it is made with the H2 in
the right proportions needed to make water again.
>
> I install this system 4 years ago on my Trojan
> T-145's and had to only do
> two full watering using only 2 gallons for each
> watering.
They are great for home RE, large amphr packs,
use.
I always put ventilation fans blowing into a batt
box to keep H2 problems down rather than sucking air
out. Fans work better on pressure than vacuum also.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Note: Only add water at beginning of charging and
> add enough to go 1/4 inch
> above the plates. You will find that at end of
> charge, that this
> electrolite level will rise. If the level is not up
> to specific level at
> end of charge, then add more on the next charging
> cycle.
>
> If you add water at end of charge, you may dilute
> the electrolite to a lower
> specific gravity.
>
> The battery tops are very clean like the day I
> install them.
>
> If you have any room above the batteries or even in
> a open non-enclose
> battery, it would be best to used the Water-Miser
> Vent Caps. These caps do
> not have to be remove when filling your batteries.
>
> Roland
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Hi Mike, Doug and All,
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am working on a forklift which has a dual motor
> setup, the controllers
> are separate with a steering sensor and controller
> to make them work
> together.
> Mike G.
That's one way but was hoping for a more like
Zilla style 2 motor, series/parallel type control at
these lower 72vdc voltages.
SRE's app engineer isn't in until Monday, will
call him then and get the story. Will let everyone
know what I find then.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Hi Doug and All,
> >--- Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I was refering to an SRE SC325 900 Amp
> programmable
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I looked but couldn't find a 900 amp model of
> >theirs, SREcontrols.
> > Did find some interesting units though
> including
> >600 amp, 72-96vdc units which also have dual motor
> >support for about $850 from Cloud Electric?. They
> >don't know much about them though.
> > Another interesting one was 1,000 amps at
> 48vdc!
> > Anyone using any of these?
> > They sound like worthwhile units for us.
> >Especially those of us who want good power from
> lower
> >voltages. And the dual motor support has me
> intrigued.
> > Thanks,
> > jerry dycus
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Jerry,
I did just the opposite on my automatic trans, I removed to torque converter
from the system. What you want to do isn't very hard to do, a torque
converter with the front pump assy. and the trans input shaft which will now
be the torque converter output shaft so you can connect it to something.
You won't need a "external pump" like I needed. What you will need is a
reservoir and a pressure regulator, a mounting plate to hold the pump still,
some brazening rods, a lathe and some fittings.
With the fluid flow charts of the trans you will see how well the auto trans
lends itself to what you want to do.
I have some photos of the pump mods that I made somewhere around here!
>
> I'd think that they would need a way to do the
> fluid, ect. I don't know what that would entail.
> Anyone know how to jerry ;-)) rig one up or which
> one is best with a locking system, least hassle to
> modify as I know little about them?
> Thanks,
> jerry dycus
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
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I was in Sam's club and saw that they are selling agm batteries now. They were
black and had 6 cylinders, much like the optimas. Is this a generic version of
the optima? Does anyone have any information on these? They were only $100.
Mike Barber
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If there are any former EV1 drivers out there who don't plan on using their
free tickets from Saturn to the LA AutoShow (and haven't already given them
to Paul S.), I could sure use a couple.
Thanks!
Marv
310.838.0131
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my last set od optimal only cost $98 including tax why
but a knock off???
--- Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was in Sam's club and saw that they are selling
> agm batteries now. They were black and had 6
> cylinders, much like the optimas. Is this a generic
> version of the optima? Does anyone have any
> information on these? They were only $100.
>
> Mike Barber
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
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If you are interested in these batteries for an EV make sure that
they are deep cycle batteries like the Optima yellow top and not
the less costly starting and lighting version, the red top.
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: sam's club agm "nascar" batteries
my last set od optimal only cost $98 including tax why
but a knock off???
--- Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was in Sam's club and saw that they are selling
agm batteries now. They were black and had 6
cylinders, much like the optimas. Is this a generic
version of the optima? Does anyone have any
information on these? They were only $100.
Mike Barber
--- End Message ---
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On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 07:15:56 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus did scribe:
>> This allow air or oxygen to mix with the hydrogen inside the
>> battery cap,
>> which allow it to return as water.
>>
> New O2 isn't needed as it is made with the H2 in the right
> proportions needed to make water again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been a *long* time since my High School chemistry class, but I didn't
think hydrogen and oxygen would do much recombining just because they're
hanging out in the same space. More specifically, the reaction (going way into
the fuzzy part of the brain) is:
2(H2) + O2 -> 2(H2O)
And a fair amount of energy is needed to bust open the H2 and the O2 so that
they can recombine. Once the reaction starts it is very exothermic. That why
you get such nasty hydrogen explosions: you can build up a large volume of
hydrogen mixed with oxygen and both quietly co-exist until a spark or flame
comes along to set off the reaction.
So I'm not sure I believe that this can really work as described.
- Tom Coate
Leesburg, VA, USA
1970s Elec-Trak E20 36VDC
1993 Ford Escort Wagon 120 VDC
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