EV Digest 4021
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Coil Spring Specialties -- individually calibrated coil springs for any
suspens
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Suspension Coils
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Wish I Had One Of These When I Was A Kid
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LED output
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: No HV cables on underside?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Suspension Coils
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: WICKED WATTS RACE RESCHEDULED
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LED output
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LED output
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: LED output
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Another BS battery?
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: LED output
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) save the EV Rangers
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) OT: converting generator to natural gas
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT prius generator
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Suspension Coils
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Suspension Coils
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Suspension Coils
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: OT: converting generator to natural gas
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charging Trade-offs (was: The Amazing Little Hawkers.)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: OT prius generator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: OT prius generator
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: The point of diminishing returns?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: LED output
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: OT prius generator
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: OT prius generator
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: LED output
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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Mark - thanks for the tip about Coil Spring Specialists. My springs are
ordered and on the way! $178 USD for the pair.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: January 12, 2005 8:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Suspension Coils
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 06:58 -0800, Don Cameron wrote:
> I have researched heavier springs for the New Beetle project, and found
that
> they will cost me $600 (ouch) to be manufactured. I also looked around
for
> other alternatives: putting air bag inside the coil, but I cannot find
> a manufacturer who makes one for the New Beetle. The OEM springs
> handle approx 440lbs (two back seat passengers and luggage). Now, with
> the rear batteries, that will be increased to 660lbs. Any suggestions?
You will be hard pressed to upgrade the springs for less. Compared to the
rest of the conversion costs, the springs are a drop in the bucket and well
worth the money.
Air kits tend to run about $200 a pair. If you haven't already, call Coil
Spring Specialists in St. Mary's Kansas 785-437-2025. They typically charge
about $150 US per pair to wind new higher rate springs.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look closer. It's an EV. Dealer promo. Electric "pedal" car (with no
pedals).
> From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:30:20 -0800 (PST)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Wish I Had One Of These When I Was A Kid!
>
> comes up a 55 pontiac convertable is that what you
> ment
>
>
> --- Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3773614271&category=12
>>
>> Last time I looked it was up to $8100.
>>
>>
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> AFAIK, ability to direct the light so it does not blind others
> has little to do with brightness or lumens output the light source
> provides. Once in a while I see oncoming car with badly adjusted
> regular lights which blinds me, followed by Lexus or such with far
> more powerful HID lights (much brighter light spots *on the road*
> in front of him), which I barely see as I approach him from the
> opposite direction.
This is EXACTLY the point. Brightness (candela) is what causes the glare
in the eyes of oncoming drivers. Illumination (lumens or candlepower) is
what illuminates the road.
The goal of headlights is mostly to illuminate the road, so you can see.
This is why they need a high lumen output.
But they also need high brightness, so others can see you. The problem
is that most headlights are already far brighter than necessary -- they
can be seen miles away, and cause glare in other driver's eyes (making
it *more* likely that they will be blinded and cause accidents).
The "perfect" headlight would provide very high illumination, with just
enough brightness so other drivers can see you but not be blinded.
Modern HID and even halogens with well-designed reflectors can come
reasonably close (when clean and adjusted correctly). Often, the problem
is that the reflectors are badly designed (built to be cheap, or
designed for style rather than function), or they are out of adjustment.
The problem is worse because US headlight are "fixed" and do not adjust
as you change the load in the vehicle.
> The trick is the reflector design such that NO (or minimal) light
> goes above certain height.
Yes. But the optimal point changes as the road dips up or down, or the
car bounces on its suspension, or the ride height changes with loading.
We could auto-adjust headlights, but don't (in part) because US law
requires fixed headlights. Some European cars have adjustable
headlights, but the feature is removed in the US.
>> For very power efficient applications it is still hard to beat
>> the HID. If instant restrike capability isn't a requirement
>> (mandatory for cars...
An option might be HID headlights, with an LED (or plain old tungsten
sealed beam) headlight as a backup. The HIDs normally provide the light,
but if they go out and need to restrike, the LED headlight replaces them
temporarily.
But I'd guess it would be cheaper to have two HID headlights, each with
independent inverters and 30-sec backup power supplies.
I can't imagine that restrike is "mandatory" in cars, since any car can
have a headlight burn out at any time. Moreover, both headlights are
always powered thru the same fuse; if it blows, you lose all light
instantly (and they won't "restrike" until you replace the fuse!)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Roland Wiench wrote:
> You could run flexible sealtite conduit that is waterproof with
> straight, 90 degree or 45 degree box connectors.
I ran ordinary galvanized rigid metal 1" electric conduit from my rear
battery box to the front. It's routed under the car, roughly along the
path where the old exhaust system used to go. I bent it to lay up
against the floor with a pipe bender. Once installed, I just pushed the
#00 wire thru it (two pipes, one wire each).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Might springs from a wrecked Passat, Vanagon, or Toureg fit?
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have researched heavier springs for the New Beetle project, and
> found that
> they will cost me $600 (ouch) to be manufactured. I also looked
> around for
> other alternatives: putting air bag inside the coil, but I cannot
> find a
> manufacturer who makes one for the New Beetle. The OEM springs
> handle
> approx 440lbs (two back seat passengers and luggage). Now, with the
> rear
> batteries, that will be increased to 660lbs. Any suggestions?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
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I know the scientific minds on the list will appreciate this one....
According to the "Farmers Almanac"
April 9th, Saturday in the morning
April 8th-11th Unsettled. Windy and showery Nevada, Utah, and parts of
Arizona, then Pleasant.
April 22, Saturday in the evening
April 20th-23rd Fair, then unsettled along the West Coast.
May 7th, Saturday in the evening
May 4th-7th, Unsettled; threatening skies over Nevada.
May 8th-11th, Varying clouds and sun.
So far for the Northeast, the almanac has been uncannily correct. And I
think most here will agree that we are NOT receiving a typical winter.
Whenever it is though, I hope to make it......!!
> Here we go again with these funky NEDRA race schedules
>
> The NEDRA Wicked Watts Race scheduled for February 4-6 has been postponed.
>
> The Las Vegas Speedway is working with us to reshedule the event and has
> come up with the following dates to to chose from:
>
> April 9th, Saturday in the morning
> April 22, Saturday in the evening
> May 7th, Saturday in the evening
>
> Richard Furniss from the Las Vegas EAA and the NEDRA board will discuss
> which date we will go with and let everyone know the new race date.
>
> Sorry for the incovenience. Apparently, February 4-6 is a big NHRA race
> weekend for the "Big Boys" and the cost to enter would be $100 to $250 for
> each vehicle to race. Cost prohibitive for some of us.
>
> Anyway, we will let you know the new date.
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
>
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David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Efficiency, or luminous efficacy, is usually measured in lumens per
> Watt. Curiously, Luxeon don't list power consumption of their LEDs
> in the spec tables on the web pages, but I downloaded from their
> site a pdf document on "electrical drive information" which I think
> has some useful information that will allow us to derive the power
> requirements.
GREAT job, David! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jan 2005 at 10:36, Evan Tuer wrote:
> I would like to use a modest array of white LEDs as
> additional "visibility" lights for my EV. As noted, they easily
> approach the brightness of a halogen headlight whilst taking very
> little power.
I'm not quite sure where you get the "as noted." You might want to review
the posts on the topic. In particular, when used with a series resistor, white
LEDs take a big tumble in efficiency, and can easily end up LESS efficient
than an incandescent bulb!
If your goal is bright, highly visible running lights (as opposed to
illumination),
you'd probably be better off with amber or blue LEDs rather than white. They
should be appreciably more efficient.
Personally, I think that blue LEDs (if the law allows them on vehicles) would
be very good DRLs. They have a very striking appearance. The downside is
that they're usually more expensive than red or amber LEDs.
--- End Message ---
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:11:39 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12 Jan 2005 at 10:36, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > I would like to use a modest array of white LEDs as
> > additional "visibility" lights for my EV. As noted, they easily
> > approach the brightness of a halogen headlight whilst taking very
> > little power.
>
> I'm not quite sure where you get the "as noted." You might want to review
> the posts on the topic. In particular, when used with a series resistor,
> white
> LEDs take a big tumble in efficiency, and can easily end up LESS efficient
> than an incandescent bulb!
Yes, I read your very informative post and agree with the assessment
that white LEDs (even these "very best" ones) are worse in terms of
lumenous efficiency and density. But they can be as bright, or
brighter, than a given incandescant bulb, please correct me if I'm
wrong here?
> If your goal is bright, highly visible running lights (as opposed to
> illumination),
> you'd probably be better off with amber or blue LEDs rather than white. They
> should be appreciably more efficient.
That is my goal, and I agree, however blue lights on non-emergency
vehicles aren't legal here.
Regards
Evan
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The authors of the paper are from UBC and BC Research. Does anybody in
Vancouver know anything about them? These are not BS institutions,
although UBC has been known to grant BS degrees. :)
Mike Hoskinson
Roger Stockton wrote:
David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
They claim "50-64% efficiency (compared to 12-15% for conventional
batteries)." Excuse me? Where do they get 12-15 percent???
They are talking about "positive active mass utilisation efficiency".
The research paper indicates that their cast reticulated open cell
current collector structures yielded PAM utilisation efficiencies of up
to 50% higher than typical book mould grids.
I'm not sure where the "50-64%" you refer to comes from. In the
research paper they indicate a PAM utilisation of 48% at the 3hr rate
and 29% at the 1hr rate. Their cycling test was performed at the 0.75hr
rate and yielded a PAM utilisation of 21%.
Cheers,
Roger.
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<snip>
> That is my goal, and I agree, however blue lights on non-emergency
> vehicles aren't legal here.
> Regards
> Evan
In Colorado, about 15 years ago, flashing blue lights were only a $16
fine... another $16 for using a siren... I miss that 1958 Cadalac
Ambulance...
- Steven Ciciora
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We've got the beginnings of our new web site up for
the San Francisco Electric Auto Association. Check it
out at www.sfeaa.org.
Also, if you're in Northern California, consider
coming to the following event to demand that Ford sell
their leased Ranger trucks instead of crushing them
(see info below).
Sherry Boschert
SFEAA
Help save the Zero-Emission Ford vehicles! Join the
vigil at Sacramento�s Senator Ford, attend the rally,
or volunteer to support by bringing a meal to the
vigil!
Friday January 14:
8AM-Vigil Begins at Senator Ford, 3801 Florin Road,
Sacramento
9AM-Press Conference
12 Noon to 1 PM- Community Support Rally
Saturday, January 15:
12 Noon to 1 PM-Community Support Rally
Sunday, January 16:
12 Noon to 1 PM-Community Support Rally
Ford Motor Company has reached a new low�it is
confiscating and destroying the most efficient vehicle
it has on the road, the Ford Ranger Electric Vehicle
(EV). These zero-emission, zero-oil vehicles are a
great step towards ending our destructive addiction to
oil which fuels war and global warming and moving us
towards a more just, peaceful, and sustainable future.
But Ford has decided that EVs are not viable and
discontinued the program in 2002.
Just a few months ago international public pressure
convinced Ford to resell its other EV, the Th!nk City
cars. Originally Ford planned to scrap both the Th!nk
EVs and the Ranger EVs, but thanks to concerned
activists in California and Norway, Ford's Th!nk EVs
are now on their way to Norway to be resold to
customers on Ford's waiting list.
Right now, the few Ranger EVs left are being taken off
the road and "recycled" by Ford. Current Ranger EV
drivers, to whom Ford leased the trucks, desperately
want to purchase their zero-emissions vehicles.
Sadly, as of today Ford has refused all offers to keep
the Ranger EVs; instead Ford plans consign its EVs to
history.
We need your help to save these fossil fuel-free
vehicles before they become part of the fossil record!
THE PLAN:
WHAT: Ranger EV drivers Dave and Heather are working
with Rainforest Action Network and Global Exchange to
stage a vigil "until they get title to their Ranger
EV." There maybe at least one other Ranger EV
involved as well.
WHEN: The Vigil begins Friday, January 14th. Going
through the weekend or longer, if we can and if we
have support.
WHERE: Senator Ford, 3801 Florin Rd., Sacramento, CA.
HOW CAN YOU HELP:
1) Join the Vigil! Contact Jennifer at 415-398-4404
ext. 328 to sign up for a shift with the trucks.
2) Come to the Press Conference at 9AM, Friday January
14th.
3) Come to the Rallies at Noon on Friday, Saturday and
Sunday
4) Bring a meal to support the vigil! Contact Jennifer
at 415-398-4404 if you or your organization can
prepare a meal for the people at the vigil.
5) Come out anytime, say hello, share support, Let us
know.
CONTACT:
Rainforest Action Network at 415.398.4404 x 328 or
email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Global Exchange at 415.558.9490 or email
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks, as always, for your efforts to break America's
oil addiction and Jumpstart Ford!
** Background **
In 1999, Ford began leasing the all-electric, super
efficient version of its Ranger pick-up truck in order
to meet its obligation under the California Zero
Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) mandate. Although only a
couple of thousand Ranger EVs were available, they
were highly popular, especially among Californians
using solar energy to recharge the truck batteries.
Ford also leased the Norwegian-built TH!NK City
electric car; both the TH!NK and the Ranger EV were so
popular that waiting lists developed.
Other automakers also produced EVs; including GM's
EV1, Toyota's RAV4 EV, Nissan's Altima EV, and Honda's
EV+. By 2002, every one of thousands of Zero Emission
battery electric vehicles offered was successfully
leased to overwhelmingly satisfied drivers, mostly in
California, where automakers were offered thousands of
dollars in cash incentives back from the State for
each car on the road. However, most of these cars were
leased, rather than sold, as the industry pursued a
legal and lobbying strategy to tear down the
regulation, concurrent with their EV production.
In 2003, finally bowing to the automotive industry,
the California Air Resources Board eviscerated its ZEV
Mandate, postponing until the end of the decade the
requirement for any Zero Emissions Vehicles. Upon
this revision of the regulations, the automakers
ceased producing electric cars, refused most requests
for lease extensions, and refused all requests from
leaseholders and the public to purchase the cars. The
automakers claim that there is no demand for the EVs,
even while used, privately owned RAV4 EVs have sold
for more than their original cost.
Beginning in 2004, automakers have begun confiscating
the vehicles in order to crush them. By 2005, if the
automakers, including Ford Motor Company, have their
way, nearly all the Zero Emission Electric Vehicles
on the road in the USA today will be destroyed.
For more information, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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--- Begin Message ---
A couple people have mentioned converting their
gasoline power genset to operate on natural gas.
Does anybody have links that show how to do
this?
Thanks,
Rod
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I think a neat after market product would be a
plug in inverter that would supply 230Vac while the
Prius is running. I wonder how difficult it would
be to make something like this?
It would be much cleaner than a stand alone generator
since all of the pollution equipment is already
on the vehicle.
Rod
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1. You can check and see if the springs from a heavier vehicle would work, I
would check out the larger VW station wagons, Vanagon and the like. Also,
you can look at other makes. You know what the dimensions and specs of the
replacements are, right?
2. You can try to find a coil-over shock absorber, or a helper spring. Check
with places like U-Haul to see what they . They should make something for
trailor towing.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:58 AM
Subject: Suspension Coils
I have researched heavier springs for the New Beetle project, and found
that
they will cost me $600 (ouch) to be manufactured. I also looked around
for
other alternatives: putting air bag inside the coil, but I cannot find a
manufacturer who makes one for the New Beetle. The OEM springs handle
approx 440lbs (two back seat passengers and luggage). Now, with the rear
batteries, that will be increased to 660lbs. Any suggestions?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:10 PM 1/12/05 +0000, you wrote:
Hello Don,
One thing is those "helper" devices, a chunk of rubber that winds in
between the coil. I'm sure you can get them in a suitable size for
most cars, and they do work but it might be a bit of a tacky solution!
No, no, and emphatically NO! These things don't really upgrade your
suspension, they just don't allow the spring to compress the way it is
supposed to. And they fall out the first time you hit a good bump, or put
the car up on a lift or jackstands.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Another option for this kind of thing is a coilover kit. Typically you
buy a set of spring perches that fit around your strut/shock, along
with a set of coil springs that come in various rates and lengths. The
lower spring perch is adjustable, so for a given spring rate you can
adjust the ride height within a range of a few inches. Also, once
installed, you don't need any special tools to disassemble the strut,
since you can relieve the preload on the springs by adjusting the perch
all the way down.
Ground Control has kits in the $400 range, although typically they
involve you cutting the stock spring perch from the strut/shock body.
Caveats include possible "spring rattle" (curable with tender springs)
and the fact that you might need stiffer dampers to match higher-rate
springs.
-Frank
On Jan 12, 2005, at 6:58, Don Cameron wrote:
I have researched heavier springs for the New Beetle project, and
found that
they will cost me $600 (ouch) to be manufactured. I also looked
around for
other alternatives: putting air bag inside the coil, but I cannot find
a
manufacturer who makes one for the New Beetle. The OEM springs handle
approx 440lbs (two back seat passengers and luggage). Now, with the
rear
batteries, that will be increased to 660lbs. Any suggestions?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try www.propane-generators.com
or http://www.propane-generators.com/economy_kits.htm#honda%20kits
Myles Twete [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 1/12/2005 10:50:51 AM
> Subject: OT: converting generator to natural gas
>
> A couple people have mentioned converting their
> gasoline power genset to operate on natural gas.
> Does anybody have links that show how to do
> this?
> Thanks,
> Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell this to Rod....
My 2 by 4 has no effect on him anymore.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: U of W project, was Venturi Fetish
> Breakage is the mechanical red-light of racing,
> If you red-light once in a while you are pushing the edge, if you
> red-light a lot, you are loosing.
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/2005
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Well Bill...
very nice dialog..
And I actually by it.
But .....I still see things a little different that most...
What I don't understand is why I have the results of "C" while using a
Modified version of "A".
What I am probably seeing is that Getting all the Kw back into the battery,
and having as little gassing as I can manage, results in Something like "C":
where the Regs end up bouncing the finish voltage around just enough to Gas
but not Vent the battery. All the while every peak pulse drives the battery
up to 14.8. For a couple of seconds.
Also, protecting the entire string from over voltages may keep the whole
pack pulling... longer than the "Modes of death" try to kill it.
We all know that batteries are Murdered, most of the time.
Bill.... I have been watching Optimas charge for years.. closing in on 10 or
so...I spend a LOT of time watching gages and meters Bored Stiff taking
notes. It ain't just fire it up and walk way.
Even if the chargers keep everything under control... I see lots of stuff
that causes my curious mind to wonder why?
As a very famous scientist once said, "use as much technology as you need
and no more."
Adding tons of data collection, and many stages of charge functions, just
adds cost to a battery charge and management system. I think If we pay
respect to the two or three main data points, We don't need a Cray super
computer to charge our batteries!!
Also the controls on the monster charger... are pretty advanced... we can do
things that would amaze you. I spend a couple nights a week watching this
system pound a battery pack into submission.
More than Ever... Regs are needed!! At least on PbLas.
I have heard recently that Lions... tend to equalize tighter with every
cycle... and once you get them close... they stay that way... Oh What a
dream!!.
Evercells did that.... If you could ever get them close to start
with....NiCads do..but it takes a Lot of water....
But thanks Bill this really answered a few questions I had on AGMs. The
"Competing Modes of Death".... is a great way to put it..
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:40 PM
Subject: Charging Trade-offs (was: The Amazing Little Hawkers.)
>
> >
> > >
> > > As of this past August, the word from Dr. John Olson of Optima fame is
> > > that 4A is the maximum recombination current an Optima will support
> > > without thermal runaway, and that 2A for 1hr will result in a loss of
> > > less than 1g of H2O even if all of the energy goes into electrolysis.
> >
> >I would be happy with 2 amps, for real!
> >
> >I need to talk to him, he bought a Reg recently....
> > Even at 2 amps the voltage on a Yt goes way up into the 16s and 17s.
Way
> >too high for me.
> >I have seen venting at less than 2 amps... If I get venting... I drop
volts
> >and amps if I can.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Optima's definitely gas at 2A, they may even vent at 2A (I've seen it
at
> > > lower currents too).
> > >
> > > Is this why Zivan's on Sparrows kill YTs? Who knows; this is at least
> > > the 3rd plausible theory I've heard.
> >
> >And the other two are???
> >
> > >
> > > > I have seen gassing as low as 15 volts at 500
> > > > milliamps. With a new set of Yts, half a amp will drive them
> > > > to 17 some odd volts. So.... You still need Regs..
> > >
> > > This is where we can only agree to disagree; as far as I'm concerned
> > > once you're over the gassing threshold you worry about current to
> > > regulate the gassing rate and avoid venting; let the voltage go where
it
> > > wants to so the plates can fully charge. The only hesitation I have
> > > here is that Hawker recommends a maximum of 15.6V for their batteries,
> > > so I would observe this, however, they also state that the finish
charge
> > > must continue for the full duration even if the voltage hits this
limit,
> > > so I still wouldn't use a reg unless I could kick it up to the higher
> > > finish voltage limit.
> > I don't understand why they say this.
> >It clearly results in damage to do this. by not permiting this, you seam
to
> >get long life and
> >no venting. Everybody with a Pedigree say more voltage and longer hold
> >times. All us folks with lab time and
> >busted knuckles... say less volts and protection. And have Nice long
lived
> >packs.
> >Who's right??? I dunno. But I seam to have pretty good results.
>
> These folks with "pedigrees" test tons of batteries under very
> controlled conditions to find out what charge algorithm makes the
batteries
> last the longest. You, on the other hand, set the charger to what you
think
> will work best on a pack or two. I think the folks that have tested
> thousands of batteries under controlled conditions have a slightly better
> handle on maximizing cycle life.
>
> The charge algorithm is a compromise between several "evils."
> There are four basic "wear" mechanisms for an AGM VRLA battery.
>
> 1) Water loss
> 2) Sulfation
> 3) Grid corrosion
> 4) Paste degradation
>
> Unless you are leaving your battery on a "float" charge for
> extended periods, grid corrosion is not an issue for you. The typical EV
> does not sit for many days or weeks between cycles, so I'll skip grid
> corrosion.
>
> When you fully discharge and then charge an AGM to, say, 14.5
> volts (tapered to less than an amp,) the positive plate is fully charged,
> but the negative plate is still discharged about 3 or 4%. You now have a
> choice as to which manner of death you choose for the battery.
>
> A) If you stop the charge at this point, the battery will lose capacity on
> each cycle as the negative plate gets farther and farther behind. The
> negative plate will also sulfate while it is left partially charged on a
> continuous basis. This will make a short cycle life.
>
> B) You can overcharge the positive plate while forcing in the 4% that the
> negative plate needs. If you do this too quickly, the battery loses a lot
> of water because the gas cannot recombine at the rate you are producing
it.
> (You will be very effective in removing sulfation, however.) If you do it
> too slowly, the leakage of the vents will cause the battery to lose water
> and you won't have the voltage to remove any sulfation. About the maximum
> constant current (of overcharge) that an Optima can take without losing a
> bunch of water is 2 amps. This method is a trade-off between water loss
and
> sulfation.
>
> C) You can apply the overcharge intermittently. That is, you can apply a
> modest current (about 2 amps for an Optima) for, say, 30 seconds, and then
> "rest" for 30 seconds. This 30 second "pulse" supplies the voltage needed
> to remove sulfation, but does not create large gas bubbles. The 30 second
> "rest" allows time for the gas to recombine to water. Thus, you fully
> charge the negative plate, remove any sulfation, and lose very little
water.
>
> The disadvantage is this "pulse" in the finish charge is not
> something that a simple (read "cheap") charger can do.
>
> Choosing "A" will result in a short battery life span. The
> capacity will degrade quickly and will remain low throughout the life of
> the battery. When the battery is nearly useless from sulfation, it will
> still have plenty of water.
>
> Choosing "B" will result in a greatly increased life span (close
> to or greater than the spec sheet) if you time the finish charge to
deliver
> the required 4% overcharge. If you set the finish charge duration to some
> constant time, (instead of adjusting it to 4%) the life span will be
> something less than the spec sheet. The battery will run out of water at
> about the same time as the paste starts to degrade. The capacity will
> remain high until the water runs out.
>
> Choosing "C" will result in a life span that will exceed the spec
> sheet, perhaps by a factor of two or more. This assumes that you time the
> finish charge to deliver the required 4% overcharge (and not some fixed
> duration.) The battery will die when the paste finally degrades. It will
> have plenty of water and will not be sulfated.
>
> You can choose what you want to do; Spend the money on the
charger
> or spend the money on replacement batteries. :^)
>
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
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> I think a neat after market product would be a
> plug in inverter that would supply 230Vac while the
> Prius is running. I wonder how difficult it would
> be to make something like this?
> It would be much cleaner than a stand alone generator
> since all of the pollution equipment is already
> on the vehicle.
> Rod
At least one of the "mild hybrid" trucks has 120Vac outlets in the walls of the
truck bed. Why do you specifically mention 230Vac?
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you can buy these inverters for camping etc
i have one that converts 12v dc to 240ac
it will run 2000 W equipment
cost was �280 ish here in the uk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think a neat after market product would be a
> plug in inverter that would supply 230Vac while the
> Prius is running. I wonder how difficult it would
> be to make something like this?
> It would be much cleaner than a stand alone generator
> since all of the pollution equipment is already
> on the vehicle.
> Rod
At least one of the "mild hybrid" trucks has 120Vac outlets in the walls of the
truck bed. Why do you specifically mention 230Vac?
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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I routinely do loose traction on the first gear, therefore
don't like driving on the first. Is there such thing as
too much power (torque)? Yes, if you can't take advantage
of what you alresdy possess, it is too much (for *that* design).
ACRX burns tires just fine, just not my favorite activity.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
Of course, you didn't
mention Victor's AC drives or TS and other li-ion cells, so it appears you are
concentrating on max (tire-burning) power levels with minimal losses.
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I always thoudht if this would be a good idea - to use polarized
wind shield glass and headlight lens. Both must have the same
polarization direction, say 45 degree. Then you see own light
(and of course the road), but oncoming light will be 90 degree
polarized vs yours and you will not see it at all (in theory).
That is of course if *every car* will have polarized lighting.
Older cars may just have cheap film filters in front.
If you don't want to get blinded, get the polarized wind shield
(optional).
Of course light output will be diminished somewhat, but the
safety benefit may outweigh this shortcoming.
Any thoughts?
Victor
Evan Tuer wrote:
Personally, I more often find that the opposite is true. Yes, badly
adjusted halogen lamps will dazzle. But correctly adjusted ones are
no hazard whereas HID lights almost always appear to be on the edge of
blinding - painfully bright harsh light thats stops you seeing
anything else for several seconds if you catch the full beam.
It is true that HIDs tend to have very selective reflector design so
that the light goes where it is meant to. But what use is this on a
bend, or on a hilly road or any junction with grade separation? Or
when one car's lights are positioned above the eyeline of another
driver? The worse offender for this is the new style Range Rover,
their HID lights never fail to blind me when they pass, via my
mirrors.
So, what is the point of headlights that you can barely see when you
are outside their "field of vision", and are guaranteed to dazzle you
if you are inside it? Seems like two seperate and equally dangerous
safety hazards to me.
Back on topic, I would like to use a modest array of white LEDs as
additional "visibility" lights for my EV. As noted, they easily
approach the brightness of a halogen headlight whilst taking very
little power. Since I drive with my lights on all the time, this
should reduce the frequency of bulb failures and save a little bit of
power (especially if I forget to switch them off when parked, which
happens!). Of course I will keep the halogen lights for driving at
night!
Regards
Evan.
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:27:34 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
AFAIK, ability to direct the light so it does not blind
others has little to do with brightness or lumens output the
light source provide. Once in a while I see oncoming car with badly
adjusted regular lights which blinds me, followed by Lexus or such
with far more powerful HID lights (much brighter light spots *on the
road* in front of him), which I barely see as I approach him from
the opposite direction. The trick is the reflector design such that
NO 9or minimal) light goes above certain height. Due to close
proximity of deflector and focusing system to the light source
(arc or fialment) absolute black and white separation is impossible
due to defraction of the light ("bending" around obstacles, in this
case, deflectors and chutters), but degree of this effect is
greatly reduced in good designs.
Victor
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
Which brings us to the absolute most important characteristic of an auto
headlight.
It must not be blinding to other drivers. If your headlights are not
bright enough you can always slow down, if they are blinding other
drivers the only thing they can do involves a 12 gage and buckshot.
Thanks,
Andre' B.
At 02:05 PM 1/11/2005, you wrote:
<< snip >>
For very power efficient applications it is still hard to beat the HID.
If instant restrike capability isn't a requirement (mandatory for cars,
not necessarily so for scooters, etc) there is a wide variety of low
wattage HIDs available. I have a tiny little 15 watt integrated
reflector
lamp and driver that is absolutely dazzling to look at and will light my
whole shop to daylight brilliance. It takes about 30 sec to cool enough
to restrike.
John
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Why do you specifically mention 230Vac?
>
or 120vac or 110vac etc.
I can build the interverter, what I should have added
to the question (and what I really want to know) is
how much hacking would you have to do on the Prius
to get it to work?
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The inverter would be plugged into the 250Vdc system.
--- richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you can buy these inverters for camping etc
> i have one that converts 12v dc to 240ac
> it will run 2000 W equipment
> cost was �280 ish here in the uk
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I think a neat after market product would be a
> > plug in inverter that would supply 230Vac while
> the
> > Prius is running. I wonder how difficult it would
> > be to make something like this?
> > It would be much cleaner than a stand alone
> generator
> > since all of the pollution equipment is already
> > on the vehicle.
> > Rod
>
> At least one of the "mild hybrid" trucks has 120Vac
> outlets in the walls of the
> truck bed. Why do you specifically mention 230Vac?
>
>
>
> Regards
> Richard
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even
> more fun!
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--- Begin Message ---
Blue on outside the car (used by police) is not legal as well
as green (I've been told, used by military). Anything between
red and yellow is OK but the standard is to use
yellow/amber for front and red for rear, never mix it.
I was stopped by a cop for having blue stripe under rear
battery box (about 20 blue LEDs) and had a warning. Told to
disconnect it. Still have it though...
Victor
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 12 Jan 2005 at 10:36, Evan Tuer wrote:
I would like to use a modest array of white LEDs as
additional "visibility" lights for my EV. As noted, they easily
approach the brightness of a halogen headlight whilst taking very
little power.
I'm not quite sure where you get the "as noted." You might want to review
the posts on the topic. In particular, when used with a series resistor, white
LEDs take a big tumble in efficiency, and can easily end up LESS efficient
than an incandescent bulb!
If your goal is bright, highly visible running lights (as opposed to illumination),
you'd probably be better off with amber or blue LEDs rather than white. They
should be appreciably more efficient.
Personally, I think that blue LEDs (if the law allows them on vehicles) would
be very good DRLs. They have a very striking appearance. The downside is
that they're usually more expensive than red or amber LEDs.
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