EV Digest 4081
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) KW hill rating, was Re: Converting a Dodge Caravan
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Vas: Re: High Voltage - let go!
by Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Realistic Cooling Was: ETEK problem found.
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sick EV Humor Revisited (OT)
by cristin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: GE forklift "EV100" controller on Ebay
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Converting a Dodge Caravan
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: KW hill rating, was Re: Converting a Dodge Caravan
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Prius +
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Converting a Dodge Caravan
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Oklahoma EV Test
by Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Prius +
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
by Catbus Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) K & W ENG. #BC-20 hookup?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) K & W ENG. #BC-20 hookup?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Prius +
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: High Voltage - let go!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Roderick Wilde, one of top slogans in Hybrid contest, OT
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: GE forklift "EV100" controller on Ebay
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re:tire growth
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Standing on an insulator is a good idea, too. BTW, concrete is not an
insulator!
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I do use rubber gloves when dealing with my batteries. Doing that
> and insulating the tools, + common sense in my opinion is enough.
> You can do more safety wise - depending how paranoid you are :-),
> but insulating *you* and your tools I'd say is a bare minimum.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fellow EVDL folks take heed!
I am afraid that I have drawn the elusive "Fringengineer" out of his
hideyhole here.
You would not believe the emails I have received from him.
I seriously suspect that this is him.
Read and compare from the following info.
Google "McCotter Technologies" and check my EVDL posting #32849 titled "Sick
EV Humor Revisited".
It is the same guy IMHO.
Do any of you remember Troy Heagy? This guy is worse.
Have fun! :^D
johnk wrote:
Greetings,
I hate to come out larkdom, but I'm afraid if I don't say something,
someone might die. NFPA 70E is the national standard for electrical
safety[hard period]. I cannot point you to a link because there is none. If
you want read 70E you must buy it or find a very good library. The best
experts for EV enthusiast are going to be power conversion engineers and
electrical safety officers from the national labs. Not your bother the
electrician or Joe the TV guy. So if you have question about electrical
safety try getting a hold of someone from Sandia, SLAC, LBL, ArGON,
Fermi-lab.
Here are few things you guys have kicked around but to my estimation
didn't
pin down.
The 5mA number is cited in 70E. This is a current it takes to put heart
into fibulation.
High Voltage = 50V and above! Go ahead and work on your 48V buss with
bare
hands, but I wouldn't.
The 10 joule limit. This is the limit for stored energy the tells you
when
to put on your PPE (personal protection equipment). Lets face it a battery
bank = mega joules = safety equipment.
Skin Resistance = 50 ohms typical. the problem here is once skin is
punctured that's it! This is why taking the Simpson meter in the ohms mode
and to sticking the sharp probes in your temples is a bad idea!
Arc Flash Point. This is where your engulfed in a plasma ball that is ten
times hotter then the sun. For the EVers this should not be an issue but
you
need to know that it takes 480v (577 peak) and 10,000 amps to vaporized
yourself. I'm fearful that someday someone will build a EV with 600v motor
and some really fast batteries.
1 amp for one second. This is lower limit for cooking yourself. Not much
is
it? Electricial burns are like radiation burns. The doctor has to wait to
see how much damage there is before he cuts something off.
I have scared you yet? I hope so, because some of you need it. I know
there
are a bunch of really bright people out there. But please don't assume
anything when it comes to electricial safety.
I really think there's a need for a EV builders safety manual and best
practices guide. More and more people will be rolling their own EV's and it
would be real nice if not one of them got hurt. A few bad accidents will
set
EVs back decades and invite government interference.
John K
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess you guys don't watch Mythbusters - they did a "toaster in the bathtub
test", and the mA level considered fatal was less than they first used as a
criteria for a lethal event. Don't remember the actual number, but it was
pretty small, and it also assumed a pathway across the chest (way bad!).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I'm beginning to think that every EVer lives on top of a steep hill.
Regen won't help you going out, and climbing that last hill on the way
back really puts the edge on your batteries (I live on top of a 30
second 30kw hill)>>
Hey, I like that - giving hills a KW rating instead of a grade. The "hill KWs"
takes into account the grade, posted speed, and vehicle size/efficiency.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some additional points if you have real high power levels ;)
Put the hand not touching the wire into a tight fist and tuck it in your back
pocket. This to prevent you from accidentally touching something grounded with
it.
And use left hand for touching (if you are right-handed). If something
unexpected happens to your hand, you probably want it to happen to the worse
one.
Seppo
>
> L�hett�j�: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> P�iv�: 08.02.2005 00:15
> Vastaanottaja: [email protected]
> Otsikko: Re: High Voltage - let go!
>
> REgarding muscles contraption - this is real and so never grab a wire
> unless you know it is at no voltage. A good advice I can pass on -
> if you do touch a questionable wire for whatever reason, tough it with
> outside of your finger(s) nail side, not inside - so there is no chance
> your palm will grab a live wire if the muscles do contrapt.
>
> I do use rubber gloves when dealing with my batteries. Doing that
> and insulating the tools, + common sense in my opinion is enough.
> You can do more safety wise - depending how paranoid you are :-),
> but insulating *you* and your tools I'd say is a bare minimum.
>
> Victor
>
> p.s. I do have set of wrenches and tools to work only on electric
> stuff. They aren't used for mechanical work.
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello Don,
> >
> > Just don't touch any of the battery terminals while the batteries are
> > charging and standing in a puddle of water or grounding your self to the
> > metal body of the EV if it has the same reference to ground with a on board
> > charger.
> >
> > Normally for maximum safety, used a Ground Fault Interrupter Circuit
> > Breaker
> > for the charging circuit or if you are charging 20 amps or less on 120 VAC,
> > used a GFI 120 VAC recepticle.
> >
> > Also, you can install the batteries in a total enclosed plastic or
> > fiberglass enclosurer that is epoxy coated using a shower or sink recoating
> > kit.
> >
> > If you used a on board battery charger, you can also install it into
> > another
> > epoxy coated glass container. Both of these containers are isolated from
> > any metal of the EV. Its like having a off board charging with only the
> > two
> > DC charging leads to it.
> >
> > Also, there should be two contactors that disconnects the battery pack from
> > the controller that is control by seperated voltage source, such as a 12
> > VDC. Normally these two additional contactors are call the safety
> > contactors, which is before the controller main contactor and motor
> > controller.
> >
> > In some cases, if you do not have theses contactors which are normally off,
> > in the circuit while charging, you may have the charging voltage in the
> > controller system.
> >
> > If you have this type of installation, as I have in my EV, I will at times,
> > test to see if there is any voltage potential to the EV chassic, by
> > checking
> > this out with a volt meter from a battery terminal to the EV frame
> >
> > When the battery charger is off, and battery circuits are all connected,
> > the
> > maximum voltage of a battery pack should be at the two far ends of the
> > battery pack. For example, if you line up 30 each 12 volt batteries in a
> > roll, the end two will be about 30 feet apart. You cannot reach both ends
> > at the same time.
> >
> > You also have to be careful when laying the batteries out in a square type
> > pattern, where you may have 5 batteries in one roll and another 5 batteries
> > in the next roll. In this configuration, you would have the 1st battery
> > and
> > no 10 battery together in the adjacent rolls. This is about 120 volts
> > difference between these two batteries.
> >
> > I used 6 volt batteries, so my difference is 60 volts between each roll.
> > You should keep the batteries super clean all the time. Even after you
> > clean them, you could read some voltage that is tracking across the battery
> > tops and may track to a adjacent battery. This is a another maintenance
> > test with a volt meter, to see if battery voltage is tracking.
> >
> > In installing, battery connectors or links, all your tools, should be
> > insulated. All socket wrenches, torque wrenches, open or close end
> > wrenches
> > used for battery work, should be insulated. I used a heavy duty heat
> > shrinks, that gets to be about 1/8 thick or more. Heat shrink the tools,
> > so
> > only one end is expose.
> >
> > Used a good set of mechanics gloves that have that rubberize coating on the
> > surface, normally for repelling grease and oil.
> >
> > If you want to be more comfortable about this, you could get a set of
> > linemans gloves. I have a set of these, plus a rubber apron for installing
> > or pulling the batteries.
> >
> > My batteries are a open type, of which I clean with a spray on battery
> > cleaner. The batteries cases are tight together, so there is residue of
> > this cleaner down the sides of which I cannot wash or wipe off. So when I
> > pull the batteries, it will make a mess of your hands if you are not rubber
> > gloves.
> >
> > Another trick, I learn from a old battery guy back in the 70's, is that to
> > set the batteries on a bed of Baking Soda. You can do this if you have a
> > totally enclosed battery container. I have about 1 inch thick layer of
> > Baking Soda of which the batteries are setting on. Since doing this, the
> > inside of the battery box after 4 years of doing this is pure bright gloss
> > white. Before that, they would get a dirty yellow color.
> >
> > If you used a battery rack for the batteries, than all the expose metal
> > should be insulated. This can be done, by taking it to a place that does
> > spray on bed liners. This does not have to be a rough black coating, you
> > can get it in any color that has a smooth texture.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 8:36 PM
> > Subject: High Voltage - let go!
> >
> >
> >
> >>I am curious about working with high voltage. I have heard, that at 50
> >>volts it possibly can kill you (given the right circumstances), but at
> >>150V
> >>it will certainly kill you because you will be unable to let go of the
> >>circuit - your muscles will contract and hold on.
> >>
> >>So what is the scoop? (besides the obvious: be very careful!)
> >>
> >>Don
> >>
> >>Victoria, BC, Canada
> >>
> >>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> >>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I am afraid that I have drawn the elusive "Fringengineer" out of his
hideyhole here.
You would not believe the emails I have received from him.
I seriously suspect that this is him.
Read and compare from the following info.
Google "McCotter Technologies" and check my EVDL posting #32849 titled "Sick
EV Humor Revisited".
It is the same guy IMHO.
Do any of you remember Troy Heagy? This guy is worse.
Have fun! :^D>>
You may be right, but this post was a little bit more mainstream than your
Fringengineer letter! It does, however, have that "I know more than you and you
can't prove otherwise" feel to it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich rudman wrote:
>Yea 22 Yts or Orbs would give a nice range, but 60
>to 70 miles.... Not
>likely.... I am going to have 20 Orbs in Goldie... I
>am expecting 20 to 25
>miles range. More than that is wishfull thing on
>Both you and Plasma boy's
>part.
I guess it has to do with driving style. It makes no sense
how a Tango can get 60+ miles per charge highway speeds on
1,100 pounds of sealed PbA batteries, or a TZero getting up
to 100 miles at 60 MPH on 28 Optimas, yet a similarly sized
pack in a car of similar efficiency can only manage 30
miles? Is that 20-25 miles figure quoted without your
batteries cycled in?
To be fair, the TZero kept its Optimas at their optimum
temperature, but I don't recall the Tango doing this. Again,
according to Roger's data, keeping Optimas at about 105
degrees only gives minimal benefits to capacity.
A 300V pack would allow me to go 60-65 MPH on a 30 amp draw,
with a .28 drag coefficient, 14.9 square foot frontal area,
rolling resistance coefficient of .008, and 2,600 pound curb
weight. According to Roger's data, that 30 amp draw would
give me 400+ wh per Optima. But according to your data, I
should more or less expect 280 wh per Optima, or 40 miles to
100% with a 300V pack with a 170 wh/mile consumption. I
don't expect to need any more than 25 kW for most
accelerating, so unless I race another car or floor it to
get ahead of someone, amp draw wouldn't exceed 150 amps.
After that few seconds of 150 amps or so, maybe being easy
on the throttle and coasting along at 60-65 and hardly
changing speed could do wonders for range.
>You both can try to prove me wrong.
I'll try. I don't expect to succeed, but the figures on
others' cars has me interested. Just to be safe, I had to
ask myself if I'd be happy with only 20-25 miles range, and
that would be a yes. I can only try to maximize that from
there and keep studying what hard and soft data I can find.
Lot of contradicting figures out there. It gets even worse
when simulation results keep favoring the optimistic data
points.
In the meantime, I'm going to keep taking measurements on my
project and coming up with ideas of how to make this thing
into the Midwest's own version of Blue Meanie.
http://www.jigsawracingservices.co.uk/lemans2004.htm
See the ADU1B in those photos? Getting my car to have that
style bonnet and with the whole body painted that dark
British Racing Green would be a serious attention getter,
especially with a decent sound system. People will remember
the car, then when they see it is electric it will get them
to think. Hmm, "Green Meanie"? I do owe Wayland for the
inspiration on my project...
Also, here is Wayland's post on the Zombie that had me
confused:
http://datsun1200.com/modules/nsections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=69
A wealth of great info in that topic. I'm glad to see so
much EV interest among the racing/tuner community.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It's simple enough to add forced air cooling and there are
> various ways to plum the forced air. It needs to be an
> external fan for low RPM cooling, and would be ideal to not
> waste power running the fan if the motor doesn't need cooling.
>... So, how about using motor current to determine when to turn
> on the cooling system!
And then it's no longer simple is it?
You could use a 48v 7inch Pabst muffin fan powered directly by the ETEK
motor voltage. It wouldn't help much for low-RPM, high-current situations,
but for medium-RPM and up, it should work fine.
But why not just run the fan all out, at all times, whenever there's
controller power? That's what I do. My muffin fan uses only a few
watts----so I just let it run whenever the controller is powered. If the
motor is already cool, it doesn't hurt to make the windings even cooler---in
fact, the cooler they are, the more efficient the motor is. The armature
resistance increases nearly linearly with temperature, and so also the R*I^2
loss. With increased armature heat loss, temperature continues to go up,
causing more loss---i.e. positive feedback. So if you can keep the windings
cool for only a few watts of fan power, the payback is more than just saving
the armature from meltdown---efficiency increases and so does the maximum
steady power output. Another benefit of having forced air is to help flush
the motor of the spent graphite from the brushes.
-Myles Twete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just really had to laugh at his "Our 3-D Models Look, 'So Realistic'
You'll Swear They Were Real" bit.
Aside from the poorly punctuated sentence, his models look like they
were textured and lit by someone with about a week's experience with a
3d software package. I have only ever seen a few images that I couldn't
guess what was real and what was CG, and his aren't anywhere near that
good.
-C
On Feb 5, 2005, at 8:58 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Gerald R. McCotter
McCotter Technologies
Interesting site he has there...
http://pages.prodigy.net/g_mccotter/mtech.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:37:14 +0000, Richard Bebbington
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ( I'm now waiting for DHL/HM Customs to give
> me my shiny new PFC30 that Rich Rudman sent over.
> It's so close....yet so far away... it's torture! ;-)
Hey Richard.. I hope it's CE marked, or they might keep it!
Just kidding, hope it arrives soon :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:15:50 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The biggest problem with regen is that if the batteries are full it
> > doesn't work.
> >
> > Chris
>
> You have to plan your route - if you leave on the mountain and heading
> to work downhill every morning, you should deliberately NOT to charge
> your pack completely overnight, so that the battery can accept full
> regen ALL the way down. Of course, regen is no substitute for charging
> (no profile, etc) so at the bottom of the hill the battery must still
> be not quite full; else it will require low current equalizing and
> indeed you will loose your regen.
If it would be more consistant to have regen always work in the same
way, regardless of the state of charge of the batteries, surely it
would not be too complicated to automatically switch on a dump load,
say a fan-cooled 20kW heater, when the batteries can't take the full
current. Like a giant Rudman Reg..
> p.s. Haven't changed brake pads since 1996 even though converted
> to AC setup in 1999. Nearing anniversary of 50,000 electric miles,
> most of which with regen...
Reducing brake-wear is a good regen selling point :)
Regards
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're right, I don't. Their methodology tends to be poor, their
scientific knowledge is lacking, and their conclusions often don 't agree
with the results of their (frequently, poorly conducted) experiments.
> I guess you guys don't watch Mythbusters - they did a "toaster in the
> bathtub
> test", and the mA level considered fatal was less than they first used as
> a
> criteria for a lethal event. Don't remember the actual number, but it was
> pretty small, and it also assumed a pathway across the chest (way bad!).
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Rich rudman wrote:
>
>>Yea 22 Yts or Orbs would give a nice range, but 60
>>to 70 miles.... Not
>>likely.... I am going to have 20 Orbs in Goldie... I
>>am expecting 20 to 25
>>miles range. More than that is wishfull thing on
>>Both you and Plasma boy's
>>part.
>
> I guess it has to do with driving style.
Yeah, I was a bit confused by that conclusion myself. I've been out of
the loop for a while, but I thought that Orbitals were a slightly better
battery than YTs? Slightly more WHs at typical EV draws and less weight?
My Pickup carried 945 lbs of 8VGC batteries (close to the worse choice of
batteries for this EV)
When I origianlly bought it, the batteries were over a year old with
questionable treatment.
After I had it for 6 months I did a 33 mile trip using slightly over 80%
of charge at approx 50 mph. Since this was close to 2C current levels, I
would expect a YT and certainly a Orb to perform at least as well,
probably better.
Given the relatively poor aerodynamics of a pickup, and the better
performqance of Orbs vs 8VGC batts, I would expect a Rabbit or your Datsun
to get at least 30-40 mph of range at 80% DOD with a similar weight in
batts. Possibly more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Keep your hands clean and use rubber gloves.
> Respect electricity, don't fear it.
I was thinking about a preventative product for mechanics to make cleanup
easier. You put on this
cream before starting work and it makes cleanup easier. Is there some kind of
product you can rub
on your hands to make you less conductive? Barring that I think the gloves are
the way to go. Even
with the one hand rule you can be leaning on the vehicle and create a path
through the fender, a
wet floor or anything else you may be touching. Just a thought.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:44 AM
Subject: KW hill rating, was Re: Converting a Dodge Caravan
> <<I'm beginning to think that every EVer lives on top of a steep hill.
> Regen won't help you going out, and climbing that last hill on the way
> back really puts the edge on your batteries (I live on top of a 30
> second 30kw hill)>>
>
> Hey, I like that - giving hills a KW rating instead of a grade. The "hill
KWs"
> takes into account the grade, posted speed, and vehicle size/efficiency.
> Hi All;
I rate the hills around here in CT in amps. Got a lot of 400 amp ones@
120 volts IF ya wanna sorta keep up with traffic. Or at 3 am when there is
NOBODY else to slow down, diownshifting and taking a bit longer at 100amps
at20mph. Maybe a booster packk of those Nicad 660 Cells ? to give the led
acids a break?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone recall the name/address of the folks working on the plug-in
Prius?
Thanks.
/Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >From: "Rod Hower"
>
> >Coming back down was scary, this is a steep grade!
>
> Hmm.. That makes me wonder about EV's in mountainous areas.
> In a gas powered vehicle, the transmission can be put in a
> lower gear and use "engine braking" on decent so the brakes
> don't get burnt up / catch fire. How does an EV handle a
> mountain decent?
Hi Ryan,
You use the brakes. If you have regen that will help tremendously, unless
it fails or until the batteries have a high enough SOC that they won't
accept regen current. Ultimately, the brakes need to be able to do it all
by themselves.
That can be a challenge. Typically a conversion EV is a lot heavier than
its ICE counterpart. Not only are the brakes worked more often due to the
lack of engine braking, they're worked harder because of the weight. A long
downhill is the ultimate test. You *need* to know how your brakes will
perform under these conditions *before* you encounter them. Modern brakes
are at a level where very few people know what brake fade is, never mind how
to deal with it. You don't want to learn the hard way.
I'll be using fade resistant brake pads and ducting cooling air to them,
maybe drilling/slotting my rotors. Different cars need different solutions,
but the solutions need to be considered.
Any real-world experience with this? Some might think that an EV climbing
Pike's Peak is remarkable. I'm more interested in the non-regen EVs that
have descended Pike's Peak successfully.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know what is on the Oklahoma EV Test? Is
it easy to pass? Is it even worth taking?
Ivan Workman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mt great Aunt and Uncle used to sell Shakley products, and I remember one
product called "Liquid Glove". I don't know if it still exists or not.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I'm figuring out what's good for me, but only by a process of elimination"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: High Voltage - let go!
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Keep your hands clean and use rubber gloves.
Respect electricity, don't fear it.
I was thinking about a preventative product for mechanics to make cleanup
easier. You put on this
cream before starting work and it makes cleanup easier. Is there some kind
of product you can rub
on your hands to make you less conductive? Barring that I think the gloves
are the way to go. Even
with the one hand rule you can be leaning on the vehicle and create a path
through the fender, a
wet floor or anything else you may be touching. Just a thought.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
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One thing to keep in mind, the first few amphours out of a pack are the
"best" ones :-) The internal resistance of the back is the least, or in
other words, the pack is the "stiffest".
- Steven Ciciora
> At 8:25 PM -0500 2-7-05, Steve Clunn wrote:
>>Not only that, but if I
>>> remember correctly, the car can only make one 1/4 mile pass
>>> before it runs out of juice?
>>>
>>but a fast one , this dosn't count , although I'd be interested to know
>> the
>>ah used my guess it less that 10 ah .
>
> My 914 uses about 4 to 6 ahr at 240V for a quick 1/4 mile run and the
> return. (I forgot the actual number but 4.3 sticks in my head) That
> gives you a ballpark figure.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
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www.priusplus.com
On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:50 AM, Bob Siebert wrote:
Does anyone recall the name/address of the folks working on the
plug-in Prius?
Thanks.
/Bob
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<I am afraid that I have drawn the elusive "Fringengineer" out of his
hideyhole here.
...snip...
You may be right, but this post was a little bit more mainstream than your
Fringengineer letter! It does, however, have that "I know more than you and you
can't prove otherwise" feel to it.
This is why I've developed the (annoying?) habit of citing a reference
for every number or broad statement that is provably not my opinion, and
including my formulas.
You guys have been good at catching me when I've transposed parts of my
formula, which is handy. Since I'm actually building things, I like it
when my math represent reality.
I'd love to know where he got the following tidbit from:
"Arc Flash Point. This is where your engulfed in a plasma ball that is ten
times hotter then the sun. For the EVers this should not be an issue but
you
need to know that it takes 480v (577 peak) and 10,000 amps to vaporized
yourself. I'm fearful that someday someone will build a EV with 600v motor
and some really fast batteries."
Aside from fussy simple details like a 480 volt RMS AC sine wave should
have a peak voltage of
480*(2^0.5) = 480*1.414 = 678 volts . . . .
http://www.ee.unb.ca/tervo/ee2791/vrms.htm
Who figured out that it'd take 4.8 Megawatts to vaporize a person and
why and what drugs they where doing?
OTOH, now we know how much power a Star Trek hand phaser puts out on
level 5 (vaporize monster setting).
On a (slightly) more practical and electrical note, anybody know of a
good link for voltage and power needed to strike an arc in dry air?
Somewhere there must be tables for designing arc lamps like these from
the 1890s :
http://www.voltnet.com/arclamps/adamsbagnall.shtml
"Mad" Mike
Free range software engineer
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My S-15 came with a BC-20 and boost transformer. When I received it only the
BC-20 was hooked up and only to the white and black wire of the ac line.
Don't know how similar this is to the Russco I once had but shouldn't something
be grounded?! Does anyone have a wiring diagram for this charger or just
confirm whether or not it gets grounded to the chassis and/or the ac line gets
grounded to the chassis.
The whole truck will be in pieces in the next couple weeks so when I put it
back together I'd like to put it together correctly rather than just how it was
before. Previous owner had breaker and GFCI tripping problems probably related
to the damager I have seen to the battery racks and what is left of the front
of the pickup bed.
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--- Begin Message ---
My S-15 came with a BC-20 and boost transformer. When I received it only the
BC-20 was hooked up and only to the white and black wire of the ac line.
Don't know how similar this is to the Russco I once had but shouldn't something
be grounded?! Does anyone have a wiring diagram for this charger or just
confirm whether or not it gets grounded to the chassis and/or the ac line gets
grounded to the chassis.
The whole truck will be in pieces in the next couple weeks so when I put it
back together I'd like to put it together correctly rather than just how it was
before. Previous owner had breaker and GFCI tripping problems probably related
to the damager I have seen to the battery racks and what is left of the front
of the pickup bed.
Thanks for any information,
Mark Hastings
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At 07:50 AM 2/8/05 -0800, you wrote:
Does anyone recall the name/address of the folks working on the plug-in Prius?
http://www.calcars.org
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Hmm, odd that they would pick 5ma as the limit for GFI circuit
> breakers, since this is supposed to be a "Safe" level.
As in all things human, there are huge differences between people. A
current that one person can hardly feel will kill another person. You
can't pick any current that is "always" safe, or "always" deadly.
There is also a huge range of indirect consequences from getting a
shock. Many times, the shock itself does no damage; but it startles you
or makes your muscles contract so that you get hurt some other way (bang
you hand on a sharp edge, drop a tool in a bad place, fall off a ladder,
etc.)
> The internet is FULL of nonsense and outright lies.
That's for sure! It seems to operate on the theory that if you say
something stupid enough times, it becomes true!
> I'm not even sure the Simpson 260 can source that much current
> on the test leads. Anyone have a Simpson 260? How much current
> does it put out went set to the x1 ohms scale?
I used to have a Simpson 260 (very nice meters, by the way). As I
recall, it has BOTH a 9v and a 1.5v battery. The 1.5v battery is used on
the X1 scale. It would deliver fairly high current into a short (like
0.1 amp), which made it much better than most meters for measuring low
resistances -- you could measure 0.1 ohms with it, while most
multimeters couldn't do much better than 1 ohm.
On all the other scales, it used the 9v battery. But then, the short
circuit current was much lower.
I remember that it wouldn't light a 1.5v light bulb or damage an LED on
any scale. Anecdotally, that says the current is pretty safe.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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John Westlund wrote:
> I guess it has to do with driving style. It makes no sense
> how a Tango can get 60+ miles per charge highway speeds on
> 1,100 pounds of sealed PbA batteries, or a TZero getting up
> to 100 miles at 60 MPH on 28 Optimas, yet a similarly sized
> pack in a car of similar efficiency can only manage 30 miles?
Lots of factors enter into it. The battery weight isn't as important as
the percentage of the total weight that is batteries. The tZero for
example had nearly 50% of its total weight in batteries to get that 100
mile range. That same pack in a heavy pickup truck would have done much
worse.
Next, range is all about efficiency; how much energy does it take to
push the car down the road. Normal cars are terrible -- aerodynamics are
a joke (really about styling). Every part in the system (tires,
transaxle, wheel alignment, brakes, motor, etc.) is designed with
efficiency considered just about last. *Everything else* is more
important than efficiency!
But this means people can make startling improvements in range just by
redesigning all these components with efficiency in mind. Low rolling
resistance tires, brakes that don't drag, lighter transmission oil,
aerodynamic improvements, etc. You go from a car you can hardly push on
a flat floor to one that you can roll with one finger. THAT increases
range dramatically!
Then, there is driving style. Constant, low speeds, on flat smooth roads
will maximize range. So, when someone is out to prove a point, they
drive in a manner that would be totally impractical for daily driving.
They can double their range this way. I've seen people claim "50 miles
range on the highway" when they meant driving at the minimum posted
speed (like 45 mph) and ignoring the honks and threats from other
drivers as they roared past.
Hand-picked batteries, carefully cycled and matched, and heated to their
optimum temperatures provide further gains. You can only do this for a
race, or as a marketing stunt.
> A 300V pack would allow me to go 60-65 MPH on a 30 amp draw,
> with a .28 drag coefficient, 14.9 square foot frontal area,
> rolling resistance coefficient of .008, and 2,600 pound curb
> weight.
Maybe. That's only 9kw; under 10hp. Not enough to get any normal sized
car up to 65mph.
Also, 300v of Optimas is 1125 lbs. I missed it; what kind of car are you
putting them in that weighs only 1475 lbs (so 1475 + 1125 = 2600 lbs
curb weight)?
> According to Roger's data, that 30 amp draw would give me 400+ wh
> per Optima.
That's true at 30 amps, taking them to essentially 100% DOD.
> But according to [Rich's] data, I should expect 280 wh per Optima
That's also true, but at higher currents and when you don't want to
discharge them any deeper than 80% DOD for longer battery life. This is
a more practical number, because you *will* draw more otha 30 amps, and
*don't* want to run them dead on every cycle.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi all, I just received the following email from a contest by the New
American Dream that wants to pressure auto makes to build more hybrids. In
order to do this they are having a slogan contest. My slogan: "Hybrids, The
New Declaration of Independence" was chosen as one of the top one hundred. I
would appreciate your vote if you like my slogan. End of blatant sales
pitch.
Dear New Dream Prius Contest Finalist,
We're thrilled to tell you that after 3 months and 35,000 slogan entries,
your slogan has been chosen as one of the top 100 most effective slogans for
our campaign to push automakers to produce more hybrid cars!
The Community Choice Awards have begun and the online community can weigh in
on which slogans they think are strongest -- the three slogans that receive
the highest average ratings will win a one year membership to Better World
Travel, including bicycle and auto roadside assistance - a $124 value.
The results of the Community's Choice Awards will also factor in to New
Dream's decision on who will win the Grand Prize - a 2005 Toyota Prius.
Feel free to tell all of your friends to vote for your slogan at
http://www.newdream.org/prius
By telling youre friends, you're not only increasing your chances of
winning, you're also helping build the strength of our grassroots consumer
campaign to pressure automakers to bring more hybrid cars to the market now.
As consumers we have tremendous power to create positive changes in the
marketplace - we just have to use it. So spread the word and tell your
friends to go to cast their votes at
http://www.newdream.org/prius today!
Good luck to you!
Kathryn
Kathryn DeLonga
Outreach Associate
Center for a New American Dream
6930 Carol Avenue
Takoma Park, MD 20912
Tel. 301-891-3683
http://www.newdream.org
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 2/7/2005
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Guys, please don't scare me like that!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: GE forklift "EV100" controller on Ebay
> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:37:14 +0000, Richard Bebbington
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > ( I'm now waiting for DHL/HM Customs to give
> > me my shiny new PFC30 that Rich Rudman sent over.
> > It's so close....yet so far away... it's torture! ;-)
>
> Hey Richard.. I hope it's CE marked, or they might keep it!
>
> Just kidding, hope it arrives soon :)
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:29 PM
.I sent this
> picture to Rich Rudman(cost me 20 bucks) to post on the ev album,its one
of the
> best shots ever of the CE,with all its new graphics.The tires in the
static
> position hang over the rims almost 3 inches.The tires would grow another 2
in.
> with speeds in excess of 150. Dennis Berube
>
Ok folks I have not been paying much attention to the EV photo album...
where do I send this Shot of Dennis's Current Eliminator.
It does really show the tire growth.. I need Dennis to get a side shot in
the pits so we can infer the tire growth from Static to 125 MPH.
Right now it's good for about a .5 ratio change, with another 2 inches that
more like a entire integer ratio change.
This is a go fast trick, that Rod, or anyone else with slicks should
use. Why add another Gear set when you can just find the right tires..
Just when your EV motor is back EmFing itself... this "Gear change" comes
in just when you need it to.
Big Hint... Dennis spent some real time figuring out the right tire and rims
for this to work.... Don't expect this to work for everyone...
As everything Dennis does to go fast, it looks so darn simple......
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