EV Digest 4271
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Performance / Range estimates with 9/11/13 inch motors?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Wire Gauge questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Smart
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Performance / Range estimates with 9/11/13 inch motors?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Smart
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Optima D31A "industrial"
by bob jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NEVRA, comments on new race organization
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Gauge Specs
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 36V Inverters Re: pusher to electric
by "Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Compressed air for regen
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) E-Meter Prescaler Voltage - Blown Emeter
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: E-Meter Prescaler Voltage - Blown Emeter
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: NEVRA, comments on new race organization
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Gas laughs
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
All I need is some rough best guesses. Ball park figures.
3,000lb rear wheel drive car(weight after conversion), 300 volt
battery pack in back. Zilla 2K.
What are just guesses as to what the 1/4 mile times would be when
using a WarP 9", 11", and 13" motor?
What about best/worst case on range with each of those motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm just trying to get some estimates on conversion cost.
Once again: 3,000lb rear wheel drive car(weight after conversion), 300
volt battery pack in back. Zilla 2K. Motor is undecided - 9/11/13"
WarP
Imagine the motor, connected to the Zilla, connected to the battery
pack. Also the PFC charger hooked to the pack.
What would be the ultimate, ideal gauge to use?
4/0 welding cable is some what expensive and heavy(Waytek: 1lb/ft and
~$3/ft?). Sure, the entire system could be wired up with it, but the
added weight and expense, not to mention if it was overkill and not
fully used.
What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
What gauge to and from the Zilla to the pack?
What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
What gauge from the charger to the battery?
I'm looking for maximum performance with an interest in low 1/4 mile times.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They will be sold in Canada by Sept, a 70mpg diesel I was told but
couldn't import from Canada (not sure why though).
Because they don't meet US crash and emission standards. ZAP got theirs
in by applying for and receiving a low-volume exemption from DOT (300 per
yer maximum, I believe). Wait for the next-gen fortwo, which is supposed to
be sold here in a year or three.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> 3,000lb rear wheel drive car(weight after conversion), 300 volt
> battery pack in back. Zilla 2K.
>
> What are just guesses as to what the 1/4 mile times would be when
> using a WarP 9", 11", and 13" motor?
>
> What about best/worst case on range with each of those motors?
We really can't answer these questions, because the motor is not what
will determine your range or 1/4-mile times.
All these motors will be about the same efficiency. So, all they are
doing is converting whatever amount of electrical power the controller
produces into mechanical power at the same basic efficiency.
What *will* determine your range and performance are things like tires,
gearing, driving style, aerodynamics, etc.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may also want to look north to Canada. These little cars have been on
the road now for a number of months. Here on the west coast, they are
becoming quite popular. I think these would make an excellent EV,
supposedly they are very crash worthy.
Who told you they cannot be imported from Canada? Best to check with the
source: US Customs.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: April 11, 2005 8:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Smart
Hi, There were a lot of Mercedes "Smart" cars in Monaco and I was curious
if anyone has gotten one of these 2-seaters through New Jersey customs,
imported and licensed over here. It looked like an excellent candidate for
a conversion and it looks like Zap is selling some (but I'd be a bit leery
of Zap). They will be sold in Canada by Sept, a 70mpg diesel I was told but
couldn't import from Canada (not sure why though). They were pricey over
there, $10k Euros or $14k us plus $3k crate shipping I was told by a
Mercedes dealer I walked into.
Also I saw a REfocus article while there on a H2 / O vehicle where the H2
and O are separated by electrolysis in wind or solar generation and saved in
two separate tanks and then recombined on combustion in a vehicle later.
There wasn't any discussion of this in the fuel cell talk but this would be
more efficient REfocus said.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume most Optima users are using the D34's? Are
there any issues with the D31A "industrial"
yellow-tops?
For me, the D31A batteries will give more lbs/ft2,
less $/lb, and less $/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
With my weight/voltage/space/Ah/$ constraints, the
D31A batteries look like a much better deal. Any
issues with these as compared with the D34's?
Thanks.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Larry,
The past few races Wicked Watts has been a little on the thin side. The
January 2004 race at Vegas had a better showing since "Sucking Amps" show
was filmed there. In the past there have also been delays due to the wind.
But the fact is, we need more racers to come out and play. There are several
drag racing cars on mothballs and I'd like to see them back out on the track
again.
NEDRA is considering a race in Sacramento. I guess now would be a good time
as any to get a show of hands of who would race at Sacramento this summer.
If there is enough interest and we can at least get 6 racers to commit to
going we can put one together. Brian Hall would organize it if he had
commitments from people to race. So if anyone is interested please let
Roderick, Brian Hall or I know.
And a reminder that Woodburn is September 4.
John Wayland also has some important news to announce that everyone will be
especially interested in.
Also, plans are moving along for the NEDRA Power of DC which is June 11,
2005 in Hagerstown, Maryland. We have several high school teams competing
this year, BYU with their EV-1 and WVU with their Formula One car plan to
race. Darin Gilbert with his bike, Shawn Lawless with a sleeper EV, and I
spoke with Dave Erb at the EV Challenge and he is hoping Robert Salem can
come out with his Rabbit Truck. Plus our local EVA/DC members will be racing
as well. West Coast folks are more then welcome to come out East and show us
how its done.
Next year we'll have to see if we can get more racers out to Wicked Watts
like it was in the good ole days.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Organizer
http://www.powerofdc.com
On 4/11/05 5:26 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:21:44 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: NEVRA, comments on new race organization
>
> Why was the Las vegas such a bust other then the wind. I would lke to
> see a race in southern California. Most spectators came from vegas and
> california! Will there be a replacement race for the Vegas cancelation ?
>
> Larry Cronk 72
> Datsun ELEC TK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries can be obtained
from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were from dismantled
missiles. I have no clue if what he says has any truth - anybody hear about
this?
I tried on the web but without much luck.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Bill Dennis wrote:
Since getting the dashboard out of my car is such a job, I was
thinking about trying to repurpose some of the gauges in there
I had thought about reusing the "ICE" gauges to show EV info (i.e.
battery amps, volts, etc..) in my Jeep conversion. However, I decided
against this for two main reasons.
First, the gauges in my Jeep were the type which always had a +12volt
and Ground connection, and got their signal by varied resistance with
respect to ground on a third wire. At the time I felt that building
interfacing circuits would be sort of complicated. Plus, for some
strange reason, Jeep used a completely different resistance range to
signal each individual gauge. This would further complicate making
circuits to convert things like battery amps/volts into the appropriate
resistance range.
Second, It turned out that, with the exception of the Tachometer &
Speedometer, all the other dash gauges were the bi-metal type, which
I've been told tend to be pretty inaccurate and are affected by
temperature. I knew they were bi-metal and not the better air-core type
gauges because air core gauges return to 0 when not powered and my
Jeep's old gauges did not (they would usually stop in a random place
when power was removed).
Something to think about, though I don't know if these concerns would
apply to your vehicle or not...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
What gauge to and from the Zilla to the pack?
I use 2/0 welding cable for these connections in my Jeep. I have my
battery current limited to 400 amps, and draw that much frequently. The
2/0 cable gets warm after longer trips, but works fine. If you plan to
use AGM batteries (and pull 1000+ amps on the battery side for any
length of time), you'd probably have to use 4/0.
What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
Because I started out with a Raptor 600, I also used 2/0 between the
controller and motor. Now that I'm using a Zilla 1K, I have noticed that
the 2/0 wire will get _hot_ if I've gone up a lot of hills or for some
other reason pulled a lot of current on the motor side of the controller
for any amount of time. I'd definitely use 4/0 if I had a more powerful
controller.
What gauge from the charger to the battery?
That'll depend on your charger's max. output and how long the wiring
needs to be between it and the batteries. I use 6 AWG, which is on the
big side as I only have a PFC-30. I could get away with using 8 AWG, but
my charger's positive wire runs all the way to the front of my Jeep so I
decided to use 6 AWG anyways.
Hope that helps
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries can be
obtained from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were from
dismantled missiles.
If they were in missles, I doubt they were rechargable lithiums. 8^)
Probably primary cells.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the one I have in my E20 for 2 years now. I can run an electric
Huskavarna chain saw, large crosscut saw, leaf blower, anything that runs on
120vac. Had 5 power outages so far and worked great every time running our
house. Neighbors are jealous when the street is dark and I'm watching TV
: )
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: 36V Inverters Re: pusher to electric
I s'pose you'd have to determine your actual needs, i.e. wether you "need"
pure sinewave, or wheter modified will do.
But, for the same money you could have an Modified Sinewave 3600watt UPS.
That's charger and inverter in one package.
http://pcworld.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=354657/
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left
untreated, it develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 36V Inverters Re: pusher to electric
I knew I'd seen this somewhere:
http://www.kansaswindpower.net/Bargains.htm
Look for the 1332 inverter. It's a big'un, 1100 watts sinewave, and
priced
accordingly at almost $900. It'll take either 32V or 36V.
Sure. No reason why not.
I've taken to dragging around an old APC Backups 600 in my tractor to
handle the little odd power jobs. Wish I could find one that would
take
36 volt input.
Chris
James A. Eckman wrote:
Could someone tell me if it would be possible/reasonable to use this
motor and an inverter to build a cordless mower?
Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that the important factor here is not so much how powerful
your controller is, but how much your vehicle weighs and how much current
it takes to keep it moving at your usual driving speed.
With a 1000A controller, 2/0 would be fine for a smaller car, which would
take advantage of the higher power for shorter periods of time. Given that
a larger less aerodynamic vehicle draws more power for extended periods,
the wires in Nick's case have a longer time to build up heat (which
increases resistance, etc).
Since the wires from the controller to the motor tend to see high current
for longer durations, it might be a worthwhile [inexpensive] improvement
to put 4/0 on those, and keep them as short as possible. This is my
current plan for my truck -- 4/0 to the motor, 2/0 to the batteries. If
my thinking is wrong on this, someone please correct me before I put the
order through to Waytek :o)
--chris
Nick Viera said:
> Hi,
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
>> What gauge to and from the Zilla to the pack?
>
> I use 2/0 welding cable for these connections in my Jeep. I have my
> battery current limited to 400 amps, and draw that much frequently. The
> 2/0 cable gets warm after longer trips, but works fine. If you plan to
> use AGM batteries (and pull 1000+ amps on the battery side for any
> length of time), you'd probably have to use 4/0.
>
>> What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
>
> Because I started out with a Raptor 600, I also used 2/0 between the
> controller and motor. Now that I'm using a Zilla 1K, I have noticed that
> the 2/0 wire will get _hot_ if I've gone up a lot of hills or for some
> other reason pulled a lot of current on the motor side of the controller
> for any amount of time. I'd definitely use 4/0 if I had a more powerful
> controller.
>
>> What gauge from the charger to the battery?
>
> That'll depend on your charger's max. output and how long the wiring
> needs to be between it and the batteries. I use 6 AWG, which is on the
> big side as I only have a PFC-30. I could get away with using 8 AWG, but
> my charger's positive wire runs all the way to the front of my Jeep so I
> decided to use 6 AWG anyways.
>
> Hope that helps
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 11, 2005, at 2:41 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Once again: 3,000lb rear wheel drive car(weight after conversion), 300
volt battery pack in back. Zilla 2K. Motor is undecided - 9/11/13"
WarP
What batteries - its an important part of cost and performance.
Imagine the motor, connected to the Zilla, connected to the battery
pack. Also the PFC charger hooked to the pack.
What would be the ultimate, ideal gauge to use?
With 2000 amps on tap I recommend 2/0 for the battery cables. I would
recommend using 4/0 between the controller and motor. Motor amps can
(and generally do) exceed battery amps.
My Buggy is all 2/0 with a 400 amp controller - its overkill for the
batteries but I wouldn't use less on the motor loop. When I re-battery
the buggy I will use 1/0 except for the motor loop (and possibly some
of the longest front to back runs if I can reuse the existing cabling.)
I'd be really happy if I could get a 600 amp at 132 volt version of the
Curtis 1221b (and would still use those cable sizes.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where did you get the idea that pneumatic systems were efficient? I'm
sitting here trying to think up a system with lower efficiency than
pneumatics, and quite frankly I'm stumped.
I'm thinking Pneumatic energy storage tops out at about 20%, 25% tops.
And that's if you use the energy fairly quickly. If you wait to long, the
air will cool off and you'll loose even more energy
Secondly, your idea to go into regen as soon as you take your foot of the
gas is NOT a good idea for efficiency.
Unless you are in stop and go traffic, the amount of energy you can
recover through regen is pretty small. You will save FAR more energy
coasting. Smart EVers will watch traffic lights way down the road and
coast for up to a mile if they estimate it's neccesary. Coasting down
slight declines is also an big energy saver.
Most regen systems gain you little if any extra range. The main benifit
of regen is the enhanced braking.
Regen can help extend range with certain driving styles. For example if
you are racing, you generally want to carry as much speed for as long as
possible and then brake hard before corners. Braking hard represents a
lot of energy, regen can recover a significant portion of this (perhaps
50% of this wasted energy). That might extend your racing range 2-3%.
However, for normal driving, coasting to stops can gain you even more
range. Every mile you coast is a mile of extra range, free.
Regen can only recover a portion of the energy used to accelerate the
vehicle (or climb a hill). The energy used to overcome losses; i.e.
aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance, friction, motor/controller losses;
is all gone. You can't recover any of it, and these losses are the
predominate energy expendeture while driving. Maintaining 50 mph on flat
ground typically uses 10kw to 15kw (power). That's ~ 260 wh(energy) every
mile, poof gone. You can't recover it.
To accelerate a 4000lb vehicle from 0 mph to 50 mph, in say 20 seconds,
takes approx 22.5 kw (power) or 125 wh. That's energy at the wheels,
from your batteries it would be about 167 wh to overcome drivetrain/motor
losses. A good EV regen system can recover 40-50% of this.
So if you go from zero to 50 mph, drive for 2 miles and then regen to a
stop, you spend 125 wh + 2* 260wh =~ 645 wh and you get back perhaps 55
wh during regen for a total expenditure of 590 wh. If instead of regen,
you coasted the last mile, you'd only spend 385wh.
Your system, as described, would probably end up with less range than
without it. I'm guessing that the freewheeling air motor will use more
energy freewheeling than it will gain you in regen. Not to mention
lugging around the extra weight and loosing the storage space.
P.s. I may have scrwed up the math, if so I'm sure someone will correct it.
> Hi David,
>
> The idea was to use a 10-20 hp motor/pump attached to the drivetrain,
> using solenoid driven pneumatic valves (or servo-driven pneumatic valves
> for variable pressure) triggered by throttle and brake inputs.
>
> If you set it up so that when your foot comes off the accelerator the
> motor goes into braking mode, you've got regenerative braking. Vice
> versa, when you step on the accelerator, it augments the motor. Leave
> the brakes conventional for convenience and safety's sake. When the
> tank goes empty, have a pressure sensor put the air motor into
> free-wheel mode (until your foot comes off the pedal). Seems to me this
> would work for gas or electric, and may actually be safer, as there
> would be a more immediate deceleration when taking your foot off the
> pedal. Pneumatics won't store that much energy, but IMO you don't need
> huge regenerative braking capability unless you're a tractor-trailer
> driver that goes through the mountains a lot.
>
> Realistically, cost/benefit will prevent doing this, as I estimate
> ~$1000 for parts plus time spent installing (months at least). I spend
> about that per year on fuel, and it at best would save 30% - so it would
> be at least 6 years before I got the investment back, counting in the
> time spent (unless gas gets up to around $4.00 a gallon... But by then
> I'll have done an EV conversion...).
>
> Best,
>
> Dave
>
>
> David Chapman wrote:
>
>> Cool, i have a couple of nice HP cylinders I have been trying to sell,
>> lol. Can you share how you propose to do the energy transfer in and
>> out of the air system?
>>
>> David Chapman
>> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
>> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Narby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 9:18 PM
>> Subject: Compressed air for regen
>>
>>
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I've been batting around various regenerative braking ideas, and
>>> finally came to the conclusion that a compressed air braking/motor
>>> system is probably the most efficient.
>>>
>>> I did a search and found someone patented this in 1998 - even went so
>>> far as to include chemistry in the holding tanks to increase
>>> efficiency (salts that go into solution to absorb heat energy from
>>> compression, then release it when pressure drops, thus extending the
>>> range of the air charge). Doesn't mean you couldn't make and use one
>>> for yourself, though.
>>>
>>> The nice thing about a compressed air tank is that you can "recharge"
>>> it practically infinitely, and it holds considerable energy. It also
>>> allows simpler electric drive motors. The real question is energy
>>> density - do compressed air tanks offer better total energy storage
>>> than batteries? Anybody puzzled this one out?
>>>
>>> I realize this is a bit OT, but compressed air regen could at least
>>> supplement an EV (if it doesn't turn out to actually be superior - I
>>> know there is an inventor in India(?) who is trying to get a
>>> compressed air car to market.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I purchased a used S-15 with an old emeter. It was really flakey according to
the previous owner and I found it didnt' track amps at all only volts. I found
it did not have an isolated dc/dc for the 12v. So I disconnected it and ordered
the part figuring that would be it.
After installation the emeter failed to work at all. It is getting 12vdc but
now I found the prescaler is putting out around 70vdc on my 126vdc pack. This
seems to high? I never tested it before so I don't know the correct value.
The prescaler is hooked up in the right direction according to the labels and I
didn't change that wiring only inserted the DC/DC in the 12V line. I'm thinking
of either buying a new emeter or sending mine in to see if it can be repaired
but don't want to hook it up to a broken prescaler. The emeter has a melted
lead on one of the resistors. And another piece either blew or had it's cover
melted by the resistor the has the melted lead.
Mark Hastings
86 S-15 pickup with only a battery ampmeter :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, I just went through this. I got some good info from the list. Search
for "E-Meter Blues" in the past couple of weeks.
Here is the scoop: I have had two e-meters. On both of them, the prescaler
open voltage reads 70V. I asked Xantrex about this and they said it was
normal. If you are concerned though, send it in with your E-Meter for
diagnosis.
I accidentally hooked up my first emeter wrong, and blew it up. I had the
shunt on the wrong side of the battery pack, which caused full pack voltage
to go through the EMeter. At 340Volts it melted a few parts.
After moving the shunt to the correct side of the battery, I purchased a new
E-Meter, powering it from a 24V tap from the battery pack (as suggested in
the manual). It worked for about 10 minutes and then I noticed I the current
was reading backwards. The manual says to swap the shunt leads if this
happens (which is quite logical). So I shut everything down, swapped the
leads, powered it all up and the EMeter was blank. Nothing, no lights, not
a thing. No amount of testing, changing leads or bench testing brought it
back to life.
I posted my problem and after getting a number of replies on the list about
my problem, Neon John spelled it all out: the manual has mistakes - as he
had the same problem. The E-Meter must run from a 12 DC-DC and not from a
24V tap off the pack. 24V is too much.
Both EMeters are in for repair at Xantrex, so hopefully I will find out in
a few days the diagnosis.
Here is the very helpful tech support guy at Xantrex, give him a call.
Randy Johnson
Technical Service Analyst
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: www.xantrex.com
T:360-435-8826 Ext.2232
F:360-925-5143
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hastings
Sent: April 11, 2005 5:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: E-Meter Prescaler Voltage - Blown Emeter
I purchased a used S-15 with an old emeter. It was really flakey according
to the previous owner and I found it didnt' track amps at all only volts. I
found it did not have an isolated dc/dc for the 12v. So I disconnected it
and ordered the part figuring that would be it.
After installation the emeter failed to work at all. It is getting 12vdc but
now I found the prescaler is putting out around 70vdc on my 126vdc pack.
This seems to high? I never tested it before so I don't know the correct
value.
The prescaler is hooked up in the right direction according to the labels
and I didn't change that wiring only inserted the DC/DC in the 12V line. I'm
thinking of either buying a new emeter or sending mine in to see if it can
be repaired but don't want to hook it up to a broken prescaler. The emeter
has a melted lead on one of the resistors. And another piece either blew or
had it's cover melted by the resistor the has the melted lead.
Mark Hastings
86 S-15 pickup with only a battery ampmeter :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I always used 2/0 per battery string (160A max) and 4/0 per controller
(400A max) at Solectria. How's that for a contrast? But this was a big
heavy vehicle that could pull peak power for a minute or two at a time.
And peak torque indefinitely.
Seth
On Apr 11, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Christopher Robison wrote:
It seems to me that the important factor here is not so much how
powerful
your controller is, but how much your vehicle weighs and how much
current
it takes to keep it moving at your usual driving speed.
With a 1000A controller, 2/0 would be fine for a smaller car, which
would
take advantage of the higher power for shorter periods of time. Given
that
a larger less aerodynamic vehicle draws more power for extended
periods,
the wires in Nick's case have a longer time to build up heat (which
increases resistance, etc).
Since the wires from the controller to the motor tend to see high
current
for longer durations, it might be a worthwhile [inexpensive]
improvement
to put 4/0 on those, and keep them as short as possible. This is my
current plan for my truck -- 4/0 to the motor, 2/0 to the batteries.
If
my thinking is wrong on this, someone please correct me before I put
the
order through to Waytek :o)
--chris
Nick Viera said:
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
What gauge to and from the Zilla to the pack?
I use 2/0 welding cable for these connections in my Jeep. I have my
battery current limited to 400 amps, and draw that much frequently.
The
2/0 cable gets warm after longer trips, but works fine. If you plan to
use AGM batteries (and pull 1000+ amps on the battery side for any
length of time), you'd probably have to use 4/0.
What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
Because I started out with a Raptor 600, I also used 2/0 between the
controller and motor. Now that I'm using a Zilla 1K, I have noticed
that
the 2/0 wire will get _hot_ if I've gone up a lot of hills or for some
other reason pulled a lot of current on the motor side of the
controller
for any amount of time. I'd definitely use 4/0 if I had a more
powerful
controller.
What gauge from the charger to the battery?
That'll depend on your charger's max. output and how long the wiring
needs to be between it and the batteries. I use 6 AWG, which is on the
big side as I only have a PFC-30. I could get away with using 8 AWG,
but
my charger's positive wire runs all the way to the front of my Jeep
so I
decided to use 6 AWG anyways.
Hope that helps
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to hear something definite rather than vague promises of
we are going to do it better.
Bob Boyd
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: NEVRA, comments on new race organization
I would have thought Roy would have put out a press release on this one
to
drum up business and support. Anyway, I would really like to hear
comments
from the EV List community on this new EV racing organization. To check
it
out go to http://www.cloudelectric.com/generic57.html
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How are you connecting a "cheap" DMM up to a shunt? I've never seen a
cheap DMM that is setup to accept an external shunt.
I suppose you could set the meter to measure milivolts, connect the shunt
up to the voltage leads (usually different from the Amp leads) and then
calculate amps. Is this how you are doing it?
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a cheap $20 DMM I want to use to measure the
> charge current
-snip-
> However when I connect the cheap meter to the
> 50A-50mV shunt, the meter scrambles all over the place.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just took the top off my Dolphin on the Prizm (to check a ROM version
for another lister) and noticed that the main drive wires from the
bulkhead to the controller IGBTs are 6 gauge stranded wire.
Seems small, but this is a 300 volt car @200 max amps. Is that rational?
I can run 6 gauge wire a whole lot easier than 2 gauge for that aux pack.
Chris
Seth Allen wrote:
I always used 2/0 per battery string (160A max) and 4/0 per controller
(400A max) at Solectria. How's that for a contrast? But this was a big
heavy vehicle that could pull peak power for a minute or two at a time.
And peak torque indefinitely.
Seth
On Apr 11, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Christopher Robison wrote:
It seems to me that the important factor here is not so much how powerful
your controller is, but how much your vehicle weighs and how much current
it takes to keep it moving at your usual driving speed.
With a 1000A controller, 2/0 would be fine for a smaller car, which would
take advantage of the higher power for shorter periods of time. Given
that
a larger less aerodynamic vehicle draws more power for extended periods,
the wires in Nick's case have a longer time to build up heat (which
increases resistance, etc).
Since the wires from the controller to the motor tend to see high current
for longer durations, it might be a worthwhile [inexpensive] improvement
to put 4/0 on those, and keep them as short as possible. This is my
current plan for my truck -- 4/0 to the motor, 2/0 to the batteries. If
my thinking is wrong on this, someone please correct me before I put the
order through to Waytek :o)
--chris
Nick Viera said:
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
What gauge to and from the Zilla to the pack?
I use 2/0 welding cable for these connections in my Jeep. I have my
battery current limited to 400 amps, and draw that much frequently. The
2/0 cable gets warm after longer trips, but works fine. If you plan to
use AGM batteries (and pull 1000+ amps on the battery side for any
length of time), you'd probably have to use 4/0.
What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
Because I started out with a Raptor 600, I also used 2/0 between the
controller and motor. Now that I'm using a Zilla 1K, I have noticed that
the 2/0 wire will get _hot_ if I've gone up a lot of hills or for some
other reason pulled a lot of current on the motor side of the controller
for any amount of time. I'd definitely use 4/0 if I had a more powerful
controller.
What gauge from the charger to the battery?
That'll depend on your charger's max. output and how long the wiring
needs to be between it and the batteries. I use 6 AWG, which is on the
big side as I only have a PFC-30. I could get away with using 8 AWG, but
my charger's positive wire runs all the way to the front of my Jeep so I
decided to use 6 AWG anyways.
Hope that helps
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul wrote:
> What batteries - its an important part of cost and performance.
AGM type. Will depend on price and availibility to decide if
Oribtals, Optimas, or Intimidators.
> With 2000 amps on tap I recommend 2/0 for the battery cables. I would
> recommend using 4/0 between the controller and motor. Motor amps can
> (and generally do) exceed battery amps.
Will 2/0 be enough for certain? I can imagine a situation where after
I get it all wired up and the cables are warm thinking "gee, maybe I
should have used 3/0.." I don't want that to happen.
That's the one thing about using 4/0. I don't have to wonder if the
cables are creating resistance. What could I do about it? But I can
imagine wondering about the weight and if 3/0 or 2/0 would have worked
just fine.
Does anyone know about how many feet worth of cable you have in your
vehicle? 25' or?
Also, I think my math was wrong earlier. 4/0 is not 1lb/ft it's more
like .87lb/ft?
50 ft of cable:
(Waytek prices/weights)
2/0 - $90
3/0 - $120
4/0 - $145
Weight for 50' of cable:
2/0 - 25 lbs
3/0 - 33 lbs
4/0 - 43.5 lbs
So 4/0 from the pack to the controller and to the motor. 2/0 for the
pack, or 3/0...? Or just get a spool of 4/0 and do the whole system
with that? Weight issue.. Might be marginal though?
Also, I've noticed "welding cable" is not all the same. For example,
this 4/0 Waytek stuff is 2035 strands of .010 wire. Another brand is
5225x34:
http://www.aiwc.com/catalogsection/catalogpdfs/pccatalog/amweld_weld.pdf
Every brand I have looked at has a different strand count.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen wrote:
> I always used 2/0 per battery string (160A max) and 4/0 per controller
> (400A max) at Solectria. How's that for a contrast?
How come 3/0 never gets used?
This reminds me of 600cc and 1000cc sport bikes. What about the 750..(3/0)?
One extreme or the other and no middle ground. Well there is but..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For my charger output (K&W BC-20), which is mounted in my trunk, I use 12
gauge stranded, and it runs though some waterproof conduit about 10' to the
front of the car. When I charge at 18 amps (my max rate), the wire gets
slightly warm. I'm sure it's even warmer inside the conduit, but I'm sure
it's not approaching any danger levels, as 12 gauge is used all over houses
in 20 amp circuits, even when the wires are buried in attic insulation.
If I had to do it over though, I would go with 10 gauge, as it's not much
harder to pull, but would give me a bit more margin.
Jim Seibert
> >>> What gauge from the charger to the battery?
> >>
> >> That'll depend on your charger's max. output and how long the wiring
> >> needs to be between it and the batteries. I use 6 AWG, which is on the
> >> big side as I only have a PFC-30. I could get away with using 8 AWG,
> >> but
> >> my charger's positive wire runs all the way to the front of my Jeep
> >> so I
> >> decided to use 6 AWG anyways.
> >>
> >> Hope that helps
> >> --
> >> -Nick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You got it. I have a 50Amp shunt, which is calibrated for 50mV. I then
switch the meter to the 200mV scale.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: April 11, 2005 7:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
How are you connecting a "cheap" DMM up to a shunt? I've never seen a cheap
DMM that is setup to accept an external shunt.
I suppose you could set the meter to measure milivolts, connect the shunt up
to the voltage leads (usually different from the Amp leads) and then
calculate amps. Is this how you are doing it?
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a cheap $20 DMM I want to use to measure the charge current
-snip-
> However when I connect the cheap meter to the 50A-50mV shunt, the
> meter scrambles all over the place.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
For anyone interested, I was forwarded some funny gas comics. I've
posted them for your reading pleasure here:
http://www.evsource.com/temp/gas_woes.html
Have a nice evening,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a hard time doing this with just the DMM leads as "antennae"
when I measuure the shunt for the charger at work (0-250mV signal) when
I use a cheap (MeterMan, Extech) DMM. The Fluke 189 deals with the
switching noise much better. No big surprise. And I am, in fact, a
broken record when it comes to DMMs :) Rich's spec on current ripple is
pretty big. My PFC-50 didn't have a lot of output capacitance, I
suspect the PFC-30 is similar. Smoothing electrolytics on the output of
the PFC-30 might be a good idea anyways, and they could help you take a
measurement. This is separate from what Vicor mentioned. I am talking
about a 450V 1800uF cap across the PFC-30 output. Or two. But check
with Rich first.
Seth
On Apr 11, 2005, at 10:43 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
You got it. I have a 50Amp shunt, which is calibrated for 50mV. I
then
switch the meter to the 200mV scale.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: April 11, 2005 7:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
How are you connecting a "cheap" DMM up to a shunt? I've never seen a
cheap
DMM that is setup to accept an external shunt.
I suppose you could set the meter to measure milivolts, connect the
shunt up
to the voltage leads (usually different from the Amp leads) and then
calculate amps. Is this how you are doing it?
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have a cheap $20 DMM I want to use to measure the charge current
-snip-
However when I connect the cheap meter to the 50A-50mV shunt, the
meter scrambles all over the place.
--- End Message ---
