EV Digest 4272
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Compressed air for regen
by Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) adapters?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Gauge Specs
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter Prescaler Voltage - Blown Emeter
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVS-21 Report
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: adapters?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Gas laughs
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Using a Cheap DMM to measure charge current
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: adapters?
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Gas laughs
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Possible gliders from Arcane autos.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Dave Cloud vs "White Zombie"
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Possible gliders from Arcane autos.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Compressed air for regen
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: E-Meter Prescaler Voltage - Blown Emeter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Possible gliders from Arcane autos.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: adapters?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
That seems small to me, but I am on the other end of the spectrum
already.
I assume 3 leads, not a multiple thereof?
Seth
On Apr 11, 2005, at 9:54 PM, Christopher Zach wrote:
I just took the top off my Dolphin on the Prizm (to check a ROM
version for another lister) and noticed that the main drive wires from
the bulkhead to the controller IGBTs are 6 gauge stranded wire.
Seems small, but this is a 300 volt car @200 max amps. Is that
rational? I can run 6 gauge wire a whole lot easier than 2 gauge for
that aux pack.
Chris
Seth Allen wrote:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Does anyone know about how many feet worth of cable you have in your
vehicle? 25' or?
I started out with 25' of black and 25' of red welding cable in my Jeep.
Because I ended up changing the positions of some of my batteries before
it was all said and done, I ended up needing more welding cable and I
bought another 25' of black cable. However, I'd say I've only got about
65' of welding cable in my Jeep total. Realize that I used so much
because it is a large vehicle and the front to mid to back battery box
runs are quite long.
P.S., for my next EV I think I'll buy orange welding cable instead of
black and red, as orange wire is now the color used to indicate high
voltage wiring in hybrids (etc?). Plus orange cable would look neater
than plain old black :-)
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun sells welding cable in a wide selection of
colors (and for a reasonable price) here:
http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--2-0.html . Note: I am not affiliated
with them; I'm just a customer :-)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While compressed air as a long term storage system is certainly
horribly inefficient, for immediate-use storage such as regen braking
at traffic lights, I can't see the efficiency being that bad. Consider
using a well insulated carbon-fibre pressure tank, and storing the
energy for only 30 seconds to a minute (typical traffic light stop).
If you view the compression/decompression as being close to adiabatic,
and heat loss while in the tank being minimal due to insulation, then
the only major losses are mechanical drag in the compresser and the
small amount of heat soak due to the whole process not being totally
adiabatic. Overall efficiency may be lower than that of a flywheel,
but given that flywheels with usable storage capacity usually use
exotic materials and are seldom seen outside research labs, I'd guess
the cost would be significantly lower.
If I recall rightly there was a group in Australia (Melbourne?) who
had such a product aimed at short-haul delivery trucks. They claimed
some large increase in efficiency for trucks during urban driving.
On Apr 12, 2005 7:24 AM, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> MOST efficient? I would think that a compressed air system would be the
> LEAST efficient option.
>
> A big problem with air (or any gas) is that it gets hot when compressed,
> and cools when it expands. When you store the hot compressed air in a
> pressure tank, the tank heats up and the air cools. The cooler air loses
> pressure, which represents an energy loss. The tank will gradually cool
> back down to ambient temperauture, causing a further loss of pressure
> and further energy losses.
> [...]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know what, now that I think about it that was the connector going to
the motor, not the battery. That's a 3 phase connection, so technically
each wire carries 1/3 the load. And it's AC
Chris
Seth Allen wrote:
That seems small to me, but I am on the other end of the spectrum already.
I assume 3 leads, not a multiple thereof?
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I live in Alaska, and my wife refuses to drive a
manual tranny.
I was thinking about converting a 1987 suburu wagon
(4x4)GL to electric.
Does anyone recommend a place that makes the adapter?
How much is a fair price?
Is driving an electric manual tranny car an different
then when it was gas powered?
Thanks!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, if the car still runs, you should be able to tap into the lines and
measure the voltages. In my case, I removed the motor before I bothered to
look at the gauges, so I had to simulate various situations:
- temp gauge: measure the voltage while heating the temp sensor **mildly**
with a heat gun
- fuel gauge: measure the resistance/voltage while adjusting the fuel float
arm
- speed sensor: use a drill to turn the sensor while using a scope to check
the signal
- tach sensor: use a frequency generator (low voltage at first) to generate
pulses to the tach. From this I was able to calculate a tach scaling
factor.
- idiot lights: using the manual, I was able to tap into the wires and light
various lights. I wired the motor warning light into the "engine check
light" and the DC-DC warning light into the "generator" idiot light.
Some of these techniques may help with your gauges as well. It does,
however, make it very easy to work on if you go through the effort of
removing the dash. I found that I needed to remove the dash anyways to get
easier access to the wiring as well as install the cabin electric heaters.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: April 11, 2005 11:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Gauge Specs
Since getting the dashboard out of my car is such a job, I was thinking
about trying to repurpose some of the gauges in there (like the fuel gauge
and the water temp gauge), perhaps for tracking the temperature in my two
battery boxes, or perhaps for something else. I've got the Factory Service
Manual for my car (1993 Geo Metro), but it doesn't give details about how
the gauges work: current range for full vs. empty, etc. Where do I go to
find this kind of info?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the correct color for
high-voltage in hybrids and EVs is fluorescent orange. Is this correct?
Is there a standard at all? (A particular Pantone number?)
On the other hand, even if there's a standard, I'm sure that a plain
orange cable would be enough to warn emergency crews in an accident
situation.
Any thoughts?
--chris
Nick Viera said:
> Hi,
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>> Does anyone know about how many feet worth of cable you have in your
>> vehicle? 25' or?
>
> I started out with 25' of black and 25' of red welding cable in my Jeep.
> Because I ended up changing the positions of some of my batteries before
> it was all said and done, I ended up needing more welding cable and I
> bought another 25' of black cable. However, I'd say I've only got about
> 65' of welding cable in my Jeep total. Realize that I used so much
> because it is a large vehicle and the front to mid to back battery box
> runs are quite long.
>
> P.S., for my next EV I think I'll buy orange welding cable instead of
> black and red, as orange wire is now the color used to indicate high
> voltage wiring in hybrids (etc?). Plus orange cable would look neater
> than plain old black :-)
>
> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun sells welding cable in a wide selection of
> colors (and for a reasonable price) here:
> http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--2-0.html . Note: I am not affiliated
> with them; I'm just a customer :-)
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don,
Let me correct this impression. The E-meter says that the power can
accept up to 40 volts. That is a lie. I hooked mine to the 36 volt
battery in my scooter and it smoked. The manual recommends, I
confirmed it with that technician, hooking the supply to a 24 volt tap
off the pack if regulated 12 volts isn't handy. The reason is that
the meter will shut down on undervolts at about 9 or 10 volts. A
single 12 volt battery can easily sag that low if the charge is down
and a very heavy load is applied. The 24 volt tap won't sag that low
unless the batteries are being abused.
I can confirm that the 24 volt tap works fine. I have my scooter
connected that way, with 24 volts to the power input and the 36 volt
battery is hooked to the voltage input.
On my 72 volt CitiCar I'm using the 500 volt prescaler that I got from
EV parts. Not the Xantrex unit but apparently one that they make
which includes an isolated 12 volt supply.
I also have a Xantrex prescaler that I'm seeing the same thing you
saw. About 70% of the applied voltage appears at the prescaler
output. Randy Johnson told me that was normal but I'm not willing to
risk an E-meter to find out. He also told me that this is an "active
prescaler" which implies to me that it contains semiconductors. I
forgot to ask him if that is what he meant.
When I get a chance I'm going to take a spare E-meter and carefully
characterize its voltage input, construct a representative network and
tie the prescaler to that to see what appears when the prescaler is
presented an identical load.
John
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:08:51 -0700, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I posted my problem and after getting a number of replies on the list about
>my problem, Neon John spelled it all out: the manual has mistakes - as he
>had the same problem. The E-Meter must run from a 12 DC-DC and not from a
>24V tap off the pack. 24V is too much.
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use the Vu-Tron welding cable from mcmaster-carr
supply (http://www.mcmaster.com/). The 2/0 welding
cable has 3300 strands where the standard welding
cable has 1323 strands. the finer strands are better
for the vibration an EV will experience and the finer
strands are rated for almost double the amperage, and
of course the cable is orange.
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:24 pm
Subject: EVS-21 Report [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Hi, this should be online in Voltage magazine with photos soon. Had a great
>time, Mark
>EVS-21 Sustainable Mobility Conference in Monaco
>International (Electric Vehicle Symposium)
>[...]
Hello Mark,
thank you for your report especially about the technical sessions, as I only
visited the exhibition.
Just a few additional points:
The Smart EV will not be made by Zytek directly, they only provide the parts
and conversion know-how. Production and marketing will be done by
http://www.rikerelectricvehicles.com and start in 12-13 month (according to the
Zytek guy). Price is said to be 25.000-30.000 Dollar, not Euros!
The Zebra batteries are made by MES-DEA in Switzerland, this company also
offers electric versions of the Smart and Renault Twingo, but ONLY in the
Tessin province in Switzerland.
On the Norwegian website, start price for the Kewet is mentioned as 116.500 NOK
= 14.300 EUR.
The orange one at the EVS21 Ride&Drive had Valence batteries, but I don't know
what the price of this version would be (probably >20.000 Euro).
Website for the Maranello car, available as gas, diesel, electric and hybrid,
is http://www.maranello4cycle.com . Price range 11.000 - 15.000 Euro.
Reva also displayed the "Reva NXG", a "design prototype" with 120 km/h / 200km
range and Zebra battery: http://www.revaindia.com/design/events.htm
Regards, Jens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 12, 2005 1:02 AM, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries can be
> > obtained from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were from
> > dismantled missiles.
>
> If they were in missles, I doubt they were rechargable lithiums. 8^)
>
> Probably primary cells.
Probably correct. But it's worth knowing that the military (UK
military I'm talking about) are large users of Li-Ion rechargeable
cells, typically the most expensive and energy dense kind, that they
use for portable equipment, of what purpose I don't know and don't
want to know :)
They basically buy an "energy pack" and return it for recharging or
recyling as appropriate when empty.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Driving in a EV with a manual transmission is more like a automatic which I
call a semi-automatic. If you use a full syncro transmission where even the
reverse gear has the syncro's, then all you have to do is move it into drive,
or 4 th or final gear of a manual to go forward and reversed to for backing up.
In a engine car with a automatic, you normally start the motor in the PARK or
Neutral position, where it comes up to idle which is at about 500 RPM where the
transmission input shaft is now turning which makes it easier to shift.
In a EV you can shift it into a forward gear or reversed with the motor Off or
at O RPM. If you cannot get it into gear at O RPM, just give a little touch of
the accelerator so the transmission input shaft will rotated a little, so the
gears will align for engagement.
I have a 3 speed transmission manual transmission in my EV where I just used
the Final gear for Forward and Reversed for backup. The reason for the 3 speed
is, that it is a standard H pattern without any awkward offsets for the
reversed gear.
The 3 speed is shift level is forward for going forward and straight back for
going backward.
Some manual transmissions are a little hard to get into reversed gear because
some of them don't syncro the reversed gear. Just give it a little rpm if you
don't have a clutch, or just depress the clutch which is only needed for
reversed.
I used the following starting and shifting routine:
1. When car is park, I have the Parking brake on, as there is no compression
of a engine to hold the car or there is no PARK Transmission Lock.
2. Transmission can be shifted into forward or reversed or may already in that
position during parking.
3. Released the Parking brake, there should be a warning lite showing it is on.
4. Turn on motor control system.
5. Press accelerator and you go if you are already in gear.
6. If you are not in gear at startup, just give it a little rpm while you shift
it or press the clutch if you used one.
7. After startup and moving either in forward or reversed and you want to
change direction, let the motor come down to about O RPM while at the same
time, shifting to either forward or reversed.
8. While driving your EV and when coming to a stop, treated it just like a
automatic, leaved it in Forward or Gear while it coming to a stop. Remember,
your motor comes down to O RPM, so you do not have to disengaged the motor like
a engine car with a manual.
You can drive all the way from you home to your destination while leaving it in
forward gear all the time, except if you have to back up.
This is what we call Semi-Automatic.
If you find a manual transmission with this H-Pattern that is fully syncro, you
could used a Love-Joy Coupler that will connect directly from your electric
motor to the splines of the transmission input shaft, eliminating the flywheel,
pressure plate and clutch. If your manual transmission needs a pilot shaft
bearing to support the input shaft of the transmission that normally install
into the crank flange of a engine, then the Love-Joy Coupler is large enough so
the transmission input shaft can go through it and the end of this input shaft
is supported with a bearing install either in the end of your motor shaft or
inside the Love-Joy Coupler that is connected to the motor.
The source for this Love Joy Coupling which this company will make it up anyway
you want:
grassrootsev.com
I think that web address is correct, but it gets me there using google.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: mike golub<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: adapters?
I live in Alaska, and my wife refuses to drive a
manual tranny.
I was thinking about converting a 1987 suburu wagon
(4x4)GL to electric.
Does anyone recommend a place that makes the adapter?
How much is a fair price?
Is driving an electric manual tranny car an different
then when it was gas powered?
Thanks!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/<http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
>
> You got it. I have a 50Amp shunt, which is calibrated for 50mV. I then
> switch the meter to the 200mV scale.
Ok. Then part of your noise problem is because the maximum signal (50mv)
is only 1/4th of the meter's full-scale range (200mv). In other words,
2mv of noise is only a 1% error in a 200mv signal, but a 4% error at
50mv.
On a cheap meter, they will provide just enough filtering to *barely*
get by with "normal" amounts of noise. A higher-quality meter will
provide extra filtering, to handle worst-case situations (like an EV,
which can have stupendous electrical noise levels).
One more thing you can try. The meter might be picking up radiated noise
(noise that comes in like radio waves; capacitively or inductively
coupled). To test for this, wrap the meter in tinfoil, leaving a little
window where you can see the display. Connect this tinfoil to the
negative input of the meter. See if this makes the meter read correctly.
Don't touch the tinfoil! It will be electrically "live"!
If this works, then the meter has no internal electrostatic or "Faraday"
shield. In a good meter, the inside of the case will be sprayed with a
conductive paint, or it will be wrapped in metal, or otherwise shielded.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those were great! Thanks!
>
> From: Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2005/04/12 Tue AM 02:50:25 GMT
> To: EV List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Gas laughs
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> For anyone interested, I was forwarded some funny gas comics. I've
> posted them for your reading pleasure here:
>
> http://www.evsource.com/temp/gas_woes.html
>
> Have a nice evening,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee, Don amd All,
You may want to twist the input wires.
And put you big cap at the shunt instead of
at the output of the charger or better, 2 of them, one
at each place so the wire resistance will help.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don Cameron wrote:
> >
> > You got it. I have a 50Amp shunt, which is
> calibrated for 50mV. I then
> > switch the meter to the 200mV scale.
>
> Ok. Then part of your noise problem is because the
> maximum signal (50mv)
> is only 1/4th of the meter's full-scale range
> (200mv). In other words,
> 2mv of noise is only a 1% error in a 200mv signal,
> but a 4% error at
> 50mv.
>
> On a cheap meter, they will provide just enough
> filtering to *barely*
> get by with "normal" amounts of noise. A
> higher-quality meter will
> provide extra filtering, to handle worst-case
> situations (like an EV,
> which can have stupendous electrical noise levels).
>
> One more thing you can try. The meter might be
> picking up radiated noise
> (noise that comes in like radio waves; capacitively
> or inductively
> coupled). To test for this, wrap the meter in
> tinfoil, leaving a little
> window where you can see the display. Connect this
> tinfoil to the
> negative input of the meter. See if this makes the
> meter read correctly.
> Don't touch the tinfoil! It will be electrically
> "live"!
>
> If this works, then the meter has no internal
> electrostatic or "Faraday"
> shield. In a good meter, the inside of the case will
> be sprayed with a
> conductive paint, or it will be wrapped in metal, or
> otherwise shielded.
> --
> "The two most common elements in the universe
> are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All copper cable of the same gauge should be "rated" for the same current.
Finer stranding will help only at very high (radio) frequencies, but not at
DC ( or DC chopped at 10's of KHz, like EV controllers do it).
There are advantages to very finely stranded welding cable, but current
capability, resistance, and heating will be the same as for coarser stranded
cable of the same gauge.
Phil
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wire Gauge questions
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 01:45:09 -0700 (PDT)
I use the Vu-Tron welding cable from mcmaster-carr
supply (http://www.mcmaster.com/). The 2/0 welding
cable has 3300 strands where the standard welding
cable has 1323 strands. the finer strands are better
for the vibration an EV will experience and the finer
strands are rated for almost double the amperage, and
of course the cable is orange.
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Is driving an electric manual tranny car an different
then when it was gas powered?
driving an manual that has been converted to electric is quite a bit like a
auto matic in many ways ,. there is no need to use the clutch when taking
off, and you probable will take off in 2nd gear so no shifting form first to
2nd , electric motors like to spin fast ( this gives them more air and the
motor sees less motor amps ) so you can leave it in 2nd if it will go fast
enough in that gear, . If 2nd isn't fast enough then you will need to shift
to 3ed , you won't need to down shift when slowing up either , just wait
till your stopped then put it in 2nd for the next take off. One thing to
watch out for is driving around in 3ed or 4th or 5th and going slow , with
the new hi amp controllers the car will probable take off with ok pick up ,
but this is hard on the motor, as its getting no cooling and seeing big
motor amps ,
Steve clunn
P,S,
This sounds like a good winter projuct to do in florida :-)
www.grassrootsev.com
Thanks!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Those were great! Thanks!
I wonder if they have any from 73...
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul certainly has some nice possible glider & ideas for us that I never
knew existed. LR.........
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102103 Isetta.
I don't know if this qualifies as arcane. It is the
only one in the US and the last 360cc model that Mazda
produced. 76 Mazda Chantez
Paul
P.S. - Roof rack included
Paul
57 Vespa 400
58 Sachsenring P70 Coupe
59 Austin Mini MK1
60 Renault 4CV
61 Morris Mini MK1
69 Cony 360 wide
69 Subaru 360 Young
69 Subaru 360 Van
70 Honda N600
7? Citicar Electric
76 Mazda Chantez
05 MINI Cooper
66 Bridgestone 90 sport (x2)
67 Moto Guzzi Stornello
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino wrote:
> All copper cable of the same gauge should be "rated" for the same current.
> Finer stranding will help only at very high (radio) frequencies, but not at
> DC ( or DC chopped at 10's of KHz, like EV controllers do it).
>
> There are advantages to very finely stranded welding cable, but current
> capability, resistance, and heating will be the same as for coarser stranded
> cable of the same gauge.
It seems like their table conflicts with that though?
http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=3142
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, some good news! There is going to be some new and exciting
competition at Woodburn this year. I just got off the phone with Dave Cloud
who wanted to first clarify that he does not think the NEDRA Rules are
unfair, he just thinks they are stupid concerning how classes are set up.
Then he dropped the bombshell that he has a new street legal race car
running 96 volts of Optima Red Tops that he intends to blow the "White
Zombie" out of the record books with. He is running two strings of batteries
at 96 volts powering 8, yes 8 Eteks in a Geo Metro. The competition should
be exciting this year. David intends to prove once and for all that voltage
doesn't matter by putting the batteries in series at the track at 192 to
prove it goes no better. There is a bit of logic to his argument in that the
horsepower we carry down the track is in the batteries. Each battery has so
much horsepower so all you have to do is multiply the number of batteries
times the horsepower of each battery and you have your potential horsepower
minus loses. Well there is a few other elements that play into this
scenario. The amount of amps at launch and how long you can hold it. Also
the efficiency of the entire system. I appreciate Dave putting his money
where his mouth is to try to prove his point. It will be an exciting
experiment. Dave was talking eleven second ETs to me. He has done 12s so he
knows what that feels like but that was in a dragster and not a sedan and
11s are way, way more far away than 12s. Anyone who has been over 100 mph in
a sedan in the quarter knows how hard is is to get there. All two of them.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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They might be small cars, but it would be tough cramming enough
batteries in them to get any decent range/power. Plus getting parts
for them could be a nightmare. Those vehicles are on the edge of
obsolesce.
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Quin Pendragon wrote:
> While compressed air as a long term storage system is certainly
> horribly inefficient, for immediate-use storage such as regen braking
> at traffic lights, I can't see the efficiency being that bad...
You can insulate the pressure tank as you say; but the insulation would
have to be inside it. If the tank is insulated on the outside, then the
tank itself heats/cools with the air, and you get losses. What are you
going to use as an insulator inside a 1000+psi pressure tank?
Also, all the hoses and air motor/compressor will need insulation, or
they will radiate considerable amounts of heat and waste energy.
Another major loss is whatever you use as a throttle or controller. In
air systems, the "regulator" is equivalent to a resistor controller for
an electric motor. It causes a pressure drop without doing any work --
i.e. it wastes energy. To make it efficient, you have to use a variable
displacement air motor/compressor. These are not cheap, easy, or
anywhere near as efficient as an electric motor.
> Overall efficiency may be lower than that of a flywheel, but given
> that flywheels with usable storage capacity usually use exotic
> materials and are seldom seen outside research labs, I'd guess
> the cost would be significantly lower.
Flywheels tend to be built with many of the same materials and
techniques as pressure tanks. Cheap ones are plain steel, better ones
are fiberglass or carbon fiber composites, etc. Pound for pound, and
made with the same materials, flywheels store more energy than pressure
tanks with air. Ow, with something *other* than air you can do better.
But there goes the cost again.
> If I recall rightly there was a group in Australia (Melbourne?) who
> had such a product aimed at short-haul delivery trucks. They claimed
> some large increase in efficiency for trucks during urban driving.
*Any* hybrid system, even one that returns only 10% of braking energy
will help. It's not hard to invent special tests that produce very large
gains.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Neon John wrote:
> The E-meter says that the power can accept up to 40 volts. That is
> a lie. I hooked mine to the 36 volt battery in my scooter and it
> smoked.
Yep. The original E-meter, made by Cruising Equipment, really did have
parts good for 40v max. But they were bought out by Heart Interface, who
renamed it the "Link 10" and did some cost-cutting. Then they were
bought by Xantrex, who did some more. Naturally, no one ever bothers to
correct the manual.
I think the current ones have a 35vdc input filter capacitor, and the
switching regulator chip is rated for 40v max.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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From: "Ryan Stotts"
Subject: Re: Wire Gauge questions - current vs stranding
> Philip Marino wrote:
>> All copper cable of the same gauge should be "rated" for the same current.
>> Finer stranding will help only at very high (radio) frequencies, but not at
>> DC ( or DC chopped at 10's of KHz, like EV controllers do it).
>>
>> There are advantages to very finely stranded welding cable, but current
>> capability, resistance, and heating will be the same as for coarser stranded
>> cable of the same gauge.
>
> It seems like their table conflicts with that though?
>
> http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=3142
>
I'm confused also... their How to Determine Proper Cable Size states - "For
example, a total
circuit of 150 ft. at 150 amps would require a 2/0 standard cable or a #2
Vu-Tron cable." The cost
of standard 2/0 is $2.23/ft and Vu-Tron #2 is $1.86, a difference of $.37/ft.
So for 250 ft there is
a cost savings of $92.50, wow!
I thought that the formula for ampacity was based on the cross section of the
wire, so if there are
more strands, that basically means there is less cross sectional area of the
total 'cable' since
there is less circumference of the individual wires (also more space wasted
because of more
strands).
Or is that in AC only?
Rush
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
> They might be small cars, but it would be tough cramming enough
> batteries in them to get any decent range/power. Plus getting parts
> for them could be a nightmare. Those vehicles are on the edge of
> obsolesce.
I'm sure this is true in general, but there are many exceptions. There
are older cars that are much simpler and lighter, often boxy and
amazingly space-efficient, and can carry enormous amounts of weight.
The original VW Microbus is amazingly strong, and has loads of room for
batteries. EV conversions of it have carried their own weight in
batteries, and set various range records.
The 1960s-70's mini-pickups from Toyota, Datsun, etc. had plenty of room
for batteries, and huge load-carrying capacities. John Wayland, I, and
many others have used them for EV conversions.
At one point I was looking at a 1950 Crosley EV conversion. The 1947-52
Crosleys were tiny sub-compact cars, but they had huge interiors for 4
adults, and tremendous load-carrying capacities for their size. They
were also widely used for dragsters and hot rods with gigantic engines;
a testament to their strength. Fred Saxby's Crosley could do incredible
burnouts and pull its front tires right off the ground with good slicks
in back.
Many old cars have such simple suspensions that it is relatively easy to
transplant bigger modern setups into them. Put a Ford 9" rear end and
Mustang front IRS in a Ford model A, and you have a car that weighs 1500
lbs and has the load capacity of a 1-ton truck!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What would be the ultimate, ideal gauge to use?
It's easy to look up wire sizes in a table, but these tables only give
you very crude rule-of-thumb values. They generally assume two wires
bundled together, with thick heavy insulation, carrying current
continuously, with no airflow for cooling, and at room temperature.
The conditions in an EV are considerably different. You have to modify
the values shown in the wire tables accordingly.
Ultimately, the max current for a wire is determined by its temperature
(how much current before it melts), and its voltage drop (how much
voltage drop can you tolerate).
> 4/0 welding cable is some what expensive and heavy
Yes; but it's a "safe" choice. "That oughta be big enough!" -- and it
usually is. Most EVs can't deliver enough current for long enough to
hurt 4/0 cable. The cable is heavy and expensive, but will run cool and
have a low voltage drop.
> What gauge cable to use to connect all the batteries together?
If weight is important, then you want something with *thin* insulation.
It dissipates heat better, so you can run more current thru it before
the insulation melts. This means a smaller, lighter, cheaper wire can be
used for a given current. The GM EV1 used #6 (I think) to interconnect
its batteries. They were carrying up to 300 amps in a wire rated for 50
amps in a normal wire table.
The extreme end of this is to connect your batteries with bare buss
bars. With their large surface area and no insulation to melt or catch
fire, they can be 1/4th the cross-section of an insulated wire. That
makes them 1/4th the weight. The battery terminals will melt before you
reach the melting point of copper.
Undersizing the wire creates a voltage drop. The rule of thumb is a 2%
max voltage drop, i.e. 300v at the batteries, 6v total drop in the
wiring, so 294v gets to your controller. If your peak current is 600
amps, then your total wire resistance R = 6v/600a = 0.01 ohms. That's
204 feet of #0000
128 feet of #00
64 feet of #2
40 feet of #4
25 feet of #6 etc.
The next concern is for how LONG the wire has to carry these currents.
#0000 is rated 225 amps continuous; even with heavy insulation it could
carry 600 amps for perhaps an hour; a LOT longer than the batteries
could deliver it! But #6 could only carry 600 amps for a matter of
seconds (but maybe long enough to get you down a drag strip).
> What gauge from the ZIlla to the motor?
Remember that the controller steps the voltage down and the current UP!
You can be creeping along with 1 amp of battery current and 100 amps of
motor current. So, the controller-to-motor wire size has to be bigger.
In this case, look at the motor's rated current, and size the wire
accordingly.
> What gauge from the charger to the battery?
Chargers are essentially "continuous" duty (they can run at full current
for hours). So, the standard wire tables are a lot closer to correct.
> I'm looking for maximum performance with an interest in low
> 1/4 mile times.
If you literally want to optimize things for 1/4 mile performance, use
the smallest wire or buss bar size you can get away with. What you're
doing is trading off voltage to save weight. For instance, a 2%
reduction in vehicle weight for a 1% voltage drop is a "good" deal. But
a 1% weight reduction for a 2% voltage drop is not.
Another possibility is to us aluminum wire or buss bars. Aluminum has
twice the resistance, but less than 1/3rd the weight of copper. But, it
is much harder to make reliable connections. (Tradeoffs, tradeoffs :-)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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surplus Li-ion (more than 1 year old) is no way,
try a capacity test on surplus li-ion you will be disapointed.
add that they have to be stored 50% SOC at 0� C otherwise they will lose
faster capacity and even 1 years old may be near half dead.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries US Military Surplus
> On Apr 12, 2005 1:02 AM, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > An EV enthusiast was mentioning that large Lithium batteries can be
> > > obtained from US Military Surplus. He says these batteries were from
> > > dismantled missiles.
> >
> > If they were in missles, I doubt they were rechargable lithiums. 8^)
> >
> > Probably primary cells.
>
> Probably correct. But it's worth knowing that the military (UK
> military I'm talking about) are large users of Li-Ion rechargeable
> cells, typically the most expensive and energy dense kind, that they
> use for portable equipment, of what purpose I don't know and don't
> want to know :)
> They basically buy an "energy pack" and return it for recharging or
> recyling as appropriate when empty.
>
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mike golub wrote:
> I live in Alaska, and my wife refuses to drive a manual tranny...
> Is driving an electric manual tranny car an different then when
> it was gas powered?
Yes!
Fundamentally, EVs don't need transmissions. No vehicle built as an EV
from scratch has a transmission.
Most conversions still have a transmission because it came with the car,
and it was easier to leave it in than to remove it. And, given that the
transmission is "free", people use it to let them get away with a
smaller, cheaper motor and controller.
My wife won't drive a car with an automatic. But, she drives my EV
(which has a manual transmission). Why? Because she doesn't have to use
the clutch, and doesn't have to shift it. She just leaves it in 2nd gear
all the time, and drives. 2nd is just fine for everything up to 50 mph
or so, and there's no place on her usual routes that needs more speed.
But, she does need to shift it into reverse. She hates it, and complains
bitterly about it. So, one of my projects is to add a reversing
contactor, so the motor can be reversed electrically instead. Then, she
won't ever have to shift at all, and she'll be happy :-)
You can do the same. Use a little bigger motor and controller than you
otherwise would, and include a reversing contactor. Then you can leave
the transmission in one gear, ignore the clutch, and just drive.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
