EV Digest 4282
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: bus bars versus wire - was RE: Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: bus bars
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DC Motor Timing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DC Motor Timing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Genset
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) BB600 Terminals - was Re: bus bars versus wire
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Genset
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Genset
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Hydraulic Hybrid, what is the cost?
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Genset
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Post ww II elec 'car'
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Hydrostatic EV tractor
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) mexican vehicles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Subaru 360 with a blown motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: bus bars
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Berlingo Electrique
by "brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Genset
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Post ww II elec 'car'
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: BB600 Terminals - was Re: bus bars versus wire
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Genset
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: BB600 Terminals - was Re: bus bars versus wire
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> I was thinking about the connectors for the Saft BB-600's... you
> see them as solid flat connectors, no bends, no movement possible.
These are nicads, not lead-acids -- quite a different animal.
First, the aircraft nicad cells are *far* smaller and lighter, and the
distance between cells is much less. This means the strain on the
terminals from temperature, shock, and vibration is much less.
Second, nicads do not normally swell as they age. Lead-acids swell
considerably as they age.
Third, the nicad cells are always put in a strong steel case that
tightly restrains the cells so they can't move. In fact, this is done
with industrial lead-acid cells, too. You'll see fork lift batteries
made from individual 2v cells tightly pressed into a heavy steel case.
This allows them to use straight flat copper or lead busbars to connect
the cells.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Should I stock this cable (at the risk of being labeled
> euro snob again :-) for the benefits of those who want make their EVs
> look like OEM?
>
Probably only if you can beat their prices (e.g.- for the more commonly desired
2/0: http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--2-0.html ) - and since they're out of
Arizona, no-one would say they're euro-snobs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Easiest: Buy batteries with "universal" terminals which have a
>> 5/16" stud. Drill 5/16" holes in the ends of your buss bars,
>> drop them on the studs, and tighten the nuts. Drawbacks: Only
>> good for relatively low currents, and will loosen over time
>> (stud creeps out of the lead).
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> solution is so simple to prevent studs from creeping out...
> You put a nut first, screw it on the stud almost all the way
> down, not touching lead. Then put your bus bar or lug on, and
> then another nut from top. Squeeze the bar between the nuts
> as hard as thread on the stud and in the nuts allow, it won't
> put any out-of-the-lead pressure on the stud.
It sounds good, but it doesn't work.
The stud in a "universal" battery terminal is the threaded end of a
stainless steel bolt. Stainless steel is a *lousy* conductor -- nichrome
wire is basically stainless steel, and they use it to make resistors.
So, using the bolt itself to carry current makes a bad situation worse.
It lowers the current rating still more, and creates even more heat in
the terminal.
Another problem is that cracks always develop between the lead post and
stainless steel stud, due to the large differences between the two
materials. Acid gets into that crack, and corrodes the lead. Now you
have a high resistance connection between terminal and stud. i've seen
batteries where the stud-to-post resistance is 100s of ohms (an open
circuit for our purposes).
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Thomasson wrote:
> I checked brush timing on large DC motors in the Union Carbide
> plant I worked in years ago. Use a sharpened wooden pencil with a
> notch cut in the wood near the eraser end to expose the graphite.
> Connect a digital voltmeter, one lead to the exposed graphite,
> the other lead to the pigtail on the brush to be tested.
This is the right idea, but your technique is a little flawed. Running
under load, there is a 1-2v drop between the brush pigtail and the
commutator bar it is presently on. This rather noisy and variable
voltage will be in series with the small commutator-to-commutator bar
voltage that you want to measure.
The correct technique is to use *two* probes, to touch and measure the
voltage between two adjacent commutator bars. "Neutral" position is the
spot where this voltage is zero. You want to position the brush rigging
so the heel (trailing edge) and toe (leading edge) of the brush are at
these points.
Be careful! Doing this sort of probing on a running motor can be
dangerous!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Use a 12 volt AC supply. Run 10 amp through the fields only.
> Move the brushes for the LEAST [AC] voltage. This is the REAL
> OH MY GOD nuetral point. Then advance or retard from there.
That's the neutral point at light or no load. This is how you would find
it for a motor that you want to run in either direction, or as a motor
and a generator.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee anmd All,
As I need a good DC generator in the near
future as an unlimited range extender, can I take a
standard series motor and rewind the field shunt style
then with correct timing use it eff just as a
generator?
Can I take shunt wound 48vdc GC motors and
with the correct timing, run it at 72vdc nom as a gen
to do this with the correct timing and a weaker field
to get the higher voltage?
Looking for 80-100 amp output at 82 or so vdc
preferably at 3600rpm.
Or a better choice?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Seems to me that it shouldn't be that hard to
> rewind a series motor,
> > like an ADC, into a sepex motor.
>
> Yes; replacing the series field winding with a shunt
> winding is easy.
> The challenge begins when you try to use it as a
> shunt generator or
> sepex motor.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm planning on making some bus bars for my set of Saft BB600s. I'm hoping
to get quite a bit of current out of them (2000A?) for brief periods, but
I'm a bit stuck right at the starting gate.
The problem is the terminals. These cells (and I assume the Marathon and
GE cells as well) have a terminal with an approximately 1/2" top surface
and a tiny M5 threaded hole, not much more than 12mm or so deep. At the
base of the terminal it flares out to almost an inch, but this seems
difficult to utilize as there is a small snap ring that seems to be in the
way.
Reference materials refer to "Elcon" and "Cannon" connectors (I have not
seen any illustrations), and this has turned out to be unhelpful for
searching as both of these manufacturers are huge and have thousands of
products.
Does anyone have pictures of these connectors? Has anyone seen a standard
bus bar with a recessed or "stepped" hole that tries to contact more than
the top surface? Should I try using a brass (or heck, aluminum) bolt for
better conductivity? Is there any such thing as a pure copper bolt?
--chris
Lee Hart said:
> Rush wrote:
>> I was thinking about the connectors for the Saft BB-600's... you
>> see them as solid flat connectors, no bends, no movement possible.
>
> These are nicads, not lead-acids -- quite a different animal.
>
> First, the aircraft nicad cells are *far* smaller and lighter, and the
> distance between cells is much less. This means the strain on the
> terminals from temperature, shock, and vibration is much less.
>
> Second, nicads do not normally swell as they age. Lead-acids swell
> considerably as they age.
>
> Third, the nicad cells are always put in a strong steel case that
> tightly restrains the cells so they can't move. In fact, this is done
> with industrial lead-acid cells, too. You'll see fork lift batteries
> made from individual 2v cells tightly pressed into a heavy steel case.
> This allows them to use straight flat copper or lead busbars to connect
> the cells.
> --
> "The two most common elements in the universe
> are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
You can get around 82V for charging with an eCycle MG2-24 and a 3-phase
bridge, at about 3900 - 4000 RPM I would estimate. 3600 RPM would be about
right for driving with the batteries kept closer to the nominal voltage and
100A output. This MG2-24 permanent magnet brushless DC unit weighs only
about 26 pounds and is quite compact at 8 inches square and less than 5
inches long. Also, there would be no problems with timing, brush arcing, or
varying the field, and it is more efficient with no power used for the
field.
If 60A would be useful from an even smaller 15 pound unit, I have an MG-24
which has only a couple of hours running time on it. That was the first
unit I bought, and the voltage output is not high enough for my 84-96V
vehicles at 3600 RPM, but perfect for a 72V system. ( I am using an MG-30
and an MG3-36 now).
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Genset
Hi Lee anmd All,
As I need a good DC generator in the near
future as an unlimited range extender, can I take a
standard series motor and rewind the field shunt style
then with correct timing use it eff just as a
generator?
Can I take shunt wound 48vdc GC motors and
with the correct timing, run it at 72vdc nom as a gen
to do this with the correct timing and a weaker field
to get the higher voltage?
Looking for 80-100 amp output at 82 or so vdc
preferably at 3600rpm.
Or a better choice?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Seems to me that it shouldn't be that hard to
rewind a series motor,
> like an ADC, into a sepex motor.
Yes; replacing the series field winding with a shunt
winding is easy.
The challenge begins when you try to use it as a
shunt generator or
sepex motor.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> But that problem is ridiculously easy to solve. You put colored
> connectors, or colored heatshrink on the ends of the cable.
This certainly works. My own EVs have all used red/black colored cable
where I could, and red and black heatshrink or boots or tape on the ends
where I couldn't (like an inter-battery cable that is black on one end
and red on the other).
Industrial EVs have used color-coded connectors to identify pack voltage
for decades.
My concern is that the auto company's "solution" to make all cables
orange completely ignored all of the existing standards and practices.
And, I feel that their solution is *inferior* to these existing methods.
Victor Tikhonov replied:
> I can get you bright orange cable specifically made for HV
> circuitry in the vehicle from the same supplier BRUSA gets it from:
> http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_verschiedenes128.htm
> Equivalent to AWG 1/0, 2/0, 4/0, whatever common you may need.
> It is *available* to anyone. Whether it is affordable, as with
> everything, depends on whom do you talk to and how bad do you want it.
I was looking for it about 18 months ago to wire the Tango's battery box
and charging system. While many websites and suppliers listed orange
cable, shrink tubing, tape etc, the actual prices and lead times I was
quoted were outrageous.
It sounds like the situation is improving. But I don't yet know if
people are just doing what I did, and relying on websites, or if they
have actually bought these orange wiring products. If they did buy them,
I'm interested to know what they cost, and what standards they meet,
quality, etc.
> Should I stock this cable... for the benefit of those who want
> make their EVs look like OEM?
If it turns out that there are already domestic sources with adequate
specs at reasonable prices (per Reverend Gadget and Roger Stockton's
posts), then there is no need for you to duplicate efforts. But if it
turns out that EVers can't actually buy this wire (not stocked, minimum
orders, substandard quality or whatever), then it would be a good
service to provide.
> ... notice consumer gadgets... have green power button/switch?
But this is coming about as a voluntary de-facto standard. It is growing
naturally out of the "natural selection" process that selects good ideas
due to their success in the market.
> Same with orange in any car. Color per se does not benefit OEMs.
> And they certainly don't make HV orange to make your life as a
> hobbyist more difficult, c'mon.
The idea of marking all EV propulsion wiring orange came strictly from
the auto companies, without regard or input from anyone already in the
business. It's not that they were deliberately trying to hurt hobbyists
or industrial EVs -- they just didn't care! They did what was convenient
for them, and what seemed reasonable to them (with their limited
experience). It's called hubris.
Recognition of hazard benefits YOU. I think it is a good idea,
just like green button on consumer gadgets.
Reverend Gadget wrote:
> I use the Vu-Tron welding cable from McMaster-Carr supply
> (http://www.mcmaster.com/).
That's good to know! Have you actually bought it, or just seen it in the
catalogs?
> The 2/0 welding cable has 3300 strands where the standard welding
> cable has 1323 strands. The finer strands are better for the
> vibration an EV will experience and the finer strands are rated
> for almost double the amperage, and of course the cable is orange.
I would hope that the cables in your EV are well enough secured so the
difference between 3300 and 1323 strands is insignificant. The really
high strand count cables are usually used where they get flexed as a
continuous, regular thing.
Strand count has nothing at all to do with current carrying capability.
If the higher strand count cable has a higher current rating, it is for
some other reason (higher temperature insulation, specs assume a shorter
duty cycle, or only one wire in free air instead of bundled pairs, etc.)
Roger Stockton writes:
> The automakers have already made orange a standard for identifying
> 'high voltage' wiring in automobiles, and emergency personnel have
> been trained to recognise this. I don't think it is likely to go
> away no matter how poor an idea we may think it is, so my opinion
> is that we are best to take advantage of it.
Frankly, I think the opposite is true. The auto companies have crushed
or otherwise taken essentially all the "orange" EVs off the road. The
few that survive will probably become museum pieces, or get cut up by
college teams to make something else. Emergency personnel aren't going
to encounter any. A few years from now, it will be as if they never
existed.
But our "hobby" EVs will *stay* on the road! We're the ones who are
actually setting the de-facto standards for the future. By pulling out
of the market, Detroit has made their EV solutions become the "Betamax
VCR", and we are building the "VHS VCRs". Hobbyists and small EV
companies have already built more EVs, and have more EVs on the road
that all the big auto companies combined.
Rather than accept the auto company's self-serving "standards", we
should be developing our OWN standards that actually work in the real
world.
[Now I'll shut up -- this is enough stuff crowded into one email :-) ]
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rats, I'd forgotten about that.
It seemed so easy I just knew I was overlooking something.
Still, for a generator at a more or less fixed load, it would work...
provided you adjusted brush timing.
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Seems to me that it shouldn't be that hard to rewind a series motor,
>> like an ADC, into a sepex motor.
>
> Yes; replacing the series field winding with a shunt winding is easy.
> The challenge begins when you try to use it as a shunt generator or
> sepex motor.
>
> The ADC series motor has no compensating windings, because they assume
> the field and armature are always in series, so their magnetic field
> strengths always go up and down together. This minimizes changes in the
> optimal brush position to minimize arcing.
>
> If you weaken the field (such as by running low field current and a high
> armature current), the strong armature magnetic field drags the weaker
> stator field out of position. This seriously increases arcing. If you
> use it as a generator where the armature current (and its magnetic
> field) are reversed, you drag the field in the opposite direction, now
> the brushes are out of position in the opposite direction, again
> increasing arcing. The result is short brush life.
>
> The "correct" solution for this is to add compensating windings. These
> are interpoles (between the poles) and pole face windings that are in
> series with the armature, and carefully placed to exactly counteract the
> pole movement caused by armature reaction.
>
> But to fit these extra windings into the motor, the field structure has
> to be physically larger. A 9" motor without interpoles needs to be 10"
> or 11" in diameter if you add interpoles and pole face windings.
> Possible -- but a lot more work!
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> For a lightweight, front-wheel-drive car, do you think there would
> be enough power if you put the hydraulic motors on the rear wheels
> only and left the ICE connected to the front?
Lee Hart wrote:
<I am thinking of *exactly* this! I have my EV for around-town driving.
My wife drives a Toyota Prius hybrid, and loves it for its high gas
mileage. We also have a VW Eurovan, for the heavy hauling and
people-moving; but it gets terrible gas mileage. So I'm looking for ways
to make the Eurovan into a hybrid.
...
So, my thought is to add hydraulic motors to the rear wheels. Also add a
forklift-style motor+pump, a small battery pack, a hydraulic
accumulator, and a small hydraulic pump to the engine. Hook it all up
right and I should have a 'tribrid', with electric, hydraulic, or ICE
driving modes! >
I was thinking about this kind of option also, to connect to my Volvo
commuting vehicle.
What about having a "pusher" style connection? You could have the
batteries, controller, hydraulic pump and tank in the trunk. Then
have a wheel that the hydraulic motor drives connected to a standard
trailer hitch (maybe a chain instead of direct drive?), so it would
look like a unicycle connected to the back of the car. You could have
a "accellerator" pedal or hand grip by the steering wheel to remotely
control the controller to the hydraulic pump. This way, you could put
the ICE in neutral, and use the hydraulic for low speeds. No
disturbing the existing 12v system, ICE gas usage would just be idle.
Possible problems I could see:
1. What happens at highway speeds if the hydraulic pump is off? Will
the fluid just spin around? Would it generate too much loss?
2. Is the combination of efficiency losses (battery to controller to
hydraulic pump to wheel rotation) too great to get much benefit?
3. Hydraulic connections through trunk might be difficult/expensive?
Does anyone have an approximate cost for such a setup? I don't have
any domain knowledge here. Are we talking hundreds of $$ or
thousands?
--
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If it turns out that there are already domestic
> sources with adequate
> specs at reasonable prices (per Reverend Gadget and
> Roger Stockton's
> posts), then there is no need for you to duplicate
> efforts. But if it
> turns out that EVers can't actually buy this wire
> (not stocked, minimum
> orders, substandard quality or whatever), then it
> would be a good
> service to provide.
I've already built two EV's(three if you count the
giant blender) with the orange cable. Love the stuff.
I give it a good shmeer with conductive paste, crimp,
color coded shrink tubing and go.. I have had no
problen getting the stuff. with the use of polarized
battery clamps and color coding make the rewiring or
changing batteries a cinch.
> > Same with orange in any car. Color per se does not
> benefit OEMs.
> > And they certainly don't make HV orange to make
> your life as a
> > hobbyist more difficult, c'mon.
I don't think it's all about the auto manufacturers.
the fire departments and tow companies have been
trained to recognize the orange wires as high voltage.
the training has been done. why should we as a group
of hobbyists try to get the standard changed. My
hybrid has all of it's high voltage wires orange and
it runs at a higher voltage than my EV's. The standard
is there. The training is done. The orange cable is
not unobtainium. It's better than the strandard black
or red cable. The jacket is chlorinated polyethylene.
I believe that it will last loger than the
thermoplastic on the standard cable. So why not go
with it? There are much more important issues to work
out in making a better EV, than the color of the
cable.
my two pesos
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< You can get around 82V for charging with an eCycle MG2-24 and a 3-phase
bridge, at about 3900 - 4000 RPM I would estimate. 3600 RPM would be about
right for driving with the batteries kept closer to the nominal voltage and
100A output. This MG2-24 permanent magnet brushless DC unit weighs only
about 26 pounds and is quite compact at 8 inches square and less than 5
inches long. Also, there would be no problems with timing, brush arcing, or
varying the field, and it is more efficient with no power used for the
field. >>
This got me to thinking: you can get about the same output from a 24 lb PMG-132
(110A, 74V, 3600 rpm, and no rectifier losses), but those German gems run $1K
apiece! Compare that to a $400 Etek that supplies 50V and 150A at the same
speed.
One more point: remember that Jerry is pretty happy with his ability to scrounge
cheap-to-free used and surplus electrical parts!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I believe that it will last loger than the
thermoplastic on the standard cable. So why not go
with it? There are much more important issues to work
out in making a better EV, than the color of the
cable.
my two pesos
Gadget>>
[[Maybe it just clashes with the color scheme under the hood...]]
Would the orange cable purchased elsewhere (like the solar guys out of AZ) still
have a more durable insulation just based on its color, or is that just for the
cable supplier you use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must be dense Rush but I as I have a great interest in aircraft and
oddities I looked at your site and I could not find the link you were
referring to. Can you point it out for me? David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: Post ww II elec 'car'
Hi all,
I don't know how many of you have checked out the link on my web site to
my conversion but the first picture on it is of an Airphibian. It was a
car/airplane that my father was part inventor, test pilot, engineer,
mechanic and chief bottlewasher. If you google it you'll see many more
pictures.
Anyway the point is that one of the 3 prototypes that were build and FAA
licenced as experimental one was an electric drive. The main engine, air
cooled, was the power source on land, it was hooked to a dynamo that drove
2 elec motors, one for each rear wheel. The motors were mounted in the
body under the seats and used a drive shaft with U joints to get power to
the wheels.
Just a way point in the voyage of EV's
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Well Rick has been egging me on to get the hydrostatic garden tractor
project off the blocks so I guess I will need to start looking around for a
good deal on a motor. Since this will be more or less a steady state hydo
pump drive app I am curious as to whether a sep-ex or some kind of
compound/shunt wound motor would be best. Original ICE was a single cyl
Kohler of approx 11 Hp. What do y`all think, about 3.5-5Hp cont for the
motor? Need to keep it at no more than 48 volts for a reasonable battery
config. If someone has a suitable motor to sell or trade drop me an e-mail
OL. Thanks David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:30:27 -0000
From: "jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: mexican vehicles
Just to add my two cents to this thread I recently purchased 2 Zenn
prototypes thru
an odd deal. I have since found these were French Micro cars bought
from the
manufacturer without drivetrains and converted to electric by
Feelgood Cars in
Toronto.
I owned the EPA compliance Lab here in New York until 2001 and did
EPA testing
and some DOT conversion work. I can tell you that you can buy and
import anything
you want from Mexico If it doesent have a drive train. In particular
an ICE.This not
only includes the pickups but NEW VW bugs which already have been
mentioned on
this group as being an excellent conversion candidate. There is a
business doing
new Mexican vehicles converted and there is almost no DOT work
required for DOT
compliance and NO EPA considerations at all! Zenn it trying it thru
Canada and if
someone wanted to do Smart car conversions I can tell you how and
where to buy
the complete vehicles wo ICE for conversion. The only catch is that
you need to do
a large order of vehicles. I could go on so anyone who wants to
discuss this, catch
me off the group line and email me directly. I guess that was more
than two cents,
Thanks for listening, Jan vanderBaan
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought this little vehicle would make a great EV. LR......
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6467&item=4542866174&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> :
> Cheapest: Buy batteries with "L" or other terminals that have a flat
> spot with a hole thru it. Bolt the buss bars to it with a bolt and nut.
> Drawbacks: Better than the above, but still has problems at high
> currents and creep.
> :
This is the type of terminal on the batteries in my Solectria Force. I recall
reading _somewhere_ of adding Bellville spring washers to the bolt and nut to
keep the inteconnect ends firmly against the battery's terminals as thermal
expansion causes the L to creep.
I have not tried this, yet, but am thinking about it. Does anyone have any
experience using Bellvilles to prevent the connections from loosening?
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
This site may be of interest;
http://www.rmsconsult.co.uk/berlingo/
Regards,
brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> << You can get around 82V for charging with an
> eCycle MG2-24 and a 3-phase
> bridge, at about 3900 - 4000 RPM I would estimate.
> 3600 RPM would be about
> right for driving with the batteries kept closer to
> the nominal voltage and
> 100A output. This MG2-24 permanent magnet brushless
> DC unit weighs only
> about 26 pounds and is quite compact at 8 inches
> square and less than 5
> inches long. Also, there would be no problems with
> timing, brush arcing, or
> varying the field, and it is more efficient with no
> power used for the
> field. >>
Great little generators/ motors but more money than
I wanted to spend. And a shunt generator is less costs
and can be used to start the gen motor without
electronics, just a contactor.
For those who care, the Freedom EV's
uni-body/frame tooling costs have been raised and
finishing the male plug to make the tooling molds for
it now ;-)).
>
> This got me to thinking: you can get about the same
> output from a 24 lb PMG-132
> (110A, 74V, 3600 rpm, and no rectifier losses), but
They are close to the eCycle units in costs. Brush
losses are about what rectifier losses are at these
voltages but the rectifiers have less maintaince
hopefully.
> those German gems run $1K
> apiece! Compare that to a $400 Etek that supplies
> 50V and 150A at the same
> speed.
>
> One more point: remember that Jerry is pretty happy
> with his ability to scrounge
> cheap-to-free used and surplus electrical parts!
You are correct for myself, but in this case, I
need good new stuff as it will be a range extender for
the production EV we are doing.
So it needs to be done right vs my usual put it
together for almost nothing way from used stuff I do
for myself.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: Post ww II elec 'car'
Can you point it out for me? David Chapman.
David,
When you get to my site www.ironandwood.org, there is a list of links on the
left-hand side, clik on the "EV conversion 86 Mitsubishi" and then on that
page, the top photo is the one I am referring to. Also if you google
Airphibian, there are a lot more photos, but not much real info. We lived in
Bethel, near Danbury from 46 to 52 and my dad worked on the Airphibian for all
that time. I'll try and get some more info from him about it.
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The following came from an MSDS for Potassium Hydroxide...
Contact with metals such as aluminum, tin and zinc causes formation of
flammable hydrogen gas.
I remember reading, probably on the EVDL, that you should NEVER use aluminum
with NiCad Batteries. Maybe that's why?
Or maybe KOH is extremely corrosive to aluminum.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Robison
> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:37 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: BB600 Terminals - was Re: bus bars versus wire
>
> I'm planning on making some bus bars for my set of Saft BB600s. I'm hoping
> to get quite a bit of current out of them (2000A?) for brief periods, but
> I'm a bit stuck right at the starting gate.
>
> The problem is the terminals. These cells (and I assume the Marathon and GE
> cells as well) have a terminal with an approximately 1/2" top surface and a
> tiny M5 threaded hole, not much more than 12mm or so deep. At the base of
> the terminal it flares out to almost an inch, but this seems difficult to
> utilize as there is a small snap ring that seems to be in the way.
>
> Reference materials refer to "Elcon" and "Cannon" connectors (I have not
> seen any illustrations), and this has turned out to be unhelpful for
> searching as both of these manufacturers are huge and have thousands of
> products.
>
> Does anyone have pictures of these connectors? Has anyone seen a standard
> bus bar with a recessed or "stepped" hole that tries to contact more than
> the top surface? Should I try using a brass (or heck, aluminum) bolt for
> better conductivity? Is there any such thing as a pure copper bolt?
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> Lee Hart said:
>> Rush wrote:
>>> I was thinking about the connectors for the Saft BB-600's... you see
>>> them as solid flat connectors, no bends, no movement possible.
>>
>> These are nicads, not lead-acids -- quite a different animal.
>>
>> First, the aircraft nicad cells are *far* smaller and lighter, and the
>> distance between cells is much less. This means the strain on the
>> terminals from temperature, shock, and vibration is much less.
>>
>> Second, nicads do not normally swell as they age. Lead-acids swell
>> considerably as they age.
>>
>> Third, the nicad cells are always put in a strong steel case that
>> tightly restrains the cells so they can't move. In fact, this is done
>> with industrial lead-acid cells, too. You'll see fork lift batteries
>> made from individual 2v cells tightly pressed into a heavy steel case.
>> This allows them to use straight flat copper or lead busbars to
>> connect the cells.
>> --
>> "The two most common elements in the universe
>> are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
> As I need a good DC generator in the near
> future as an unlimited range extender, can I take a
> standard series motor and rewind the field shunt style
> then with correct timing use it eff just as a
> generator?
> Can I take shunt wound 48vdc GC motors and
> with the correct timing, run it at 72vdc nom as a gen
> to do this with the correct timing and a weaker field
> to get the higher voltage?
> Looking for 80-100 amp output at 82 or so vdc
> preferably at 3600rpm.
> Or a better choice?
What are the chances for just using an entire motorcycle rear end,
engine and all? It would be much more efficient (best fuel economy) to
directly drive the rear wheel, rather than use the ICE to drive a
generator to charge the batteries to run the elecric motor that drives
the wheel.
Yes, you can use a shunt golf cart motor as a generator. Since they
aren't "proper" generators, the brush timing will be off and you'll
probably get too much arcing at 72v and 100 amps. But, it is probably
acceptable at 72v and 25 amps.
The cheapest and lightest solution is an automotive alternator.
Efficiency stinks, though.
How about mounting the ICE in-line with the traction motor, and
connecting it with a centrifugal clutch? When the ICE is off, it does
nothing. When the ICE is idling, it freewheels until its speed goes
above (say) 1000 rpm. Then it can pick up the load.
We could add a small shunt winding to the traction motor, so it is (say)
75% series, 25% shunt. Use the shunt field as a way to make it work as a
generator, for mild regen. It is also a way to provide automatic rpm
limiting in case the belt breaks, or to adjust motor speed without a PWM
controller. This is what the old Baker EV I described did.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
> I'm planning on making some bus bars for my set of Saft BB600s.
> I'm hoping to get quite a bit of current out of them (2000A?)
> for brief periods...
>
> The problem is the terminals. These cells... have a terminal
> approximately 1/2" top surface and a tiny M5 threaded hole, not
> much more than 12mm or so deep.
The screw is not intended to carry much current. It just provides the
contact pressure. Almost all your current flows directly from the 1/2"
dia. flat surface to the flat buss bar.
To get the best contact, the buss bars are usually nickel, or nickel
plated copper. For your high currents, nickel plated copper is best. You
want nickel because the terminal is nickel -- if you use any other
metal, you have dissimilar metals that will be wetted with electrolyte,
and so will get corrosion.
I would just clean the contact surfaces thoroughly, make sure they are
smooth and flat, and use a small amount of vaseline or contact lubricant
grease. Torque the screw to the specified value.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
> I don't think it's all about the auto manufacturers.
> The fire departments and tow companies have been
> trained to recognize the orange wires as high voltage.
> The training has been done.
A little history: When the auto and oil companies were fighting against
EVs, they hired lobbyists and publicists to run FUD (Fear Uncertainty
and Doubt) campaigns. For example, Anita Mangles and Ralph Craven (yes,
those were the names) went to firefighter's associations and incited
them against EVs on the basis that they were deadly, and would kill
firefighters. They made it sound like EVs were deadly bombs that would
poison, electrocute, explode, and murder any emergency workers who came
near them.
When the lobbying failed and it became clear that CA was not going to
back down on its ZEV mandate, and that they had to produce EVs after
all, the auto companies switched tactics. They had already alarmed the
firefighters; now they had to placate them so they could build EVs
without being sued. They came up with the orange cable plan as a "feel
good" solution. It was the auto companies that pushed to alert and train
emergency personnel that orange means dangerous.
> why should we as a group of hobbyists try to get the standard changed?
Because I distrust expedient solutions worked out behind closed doors,
by people with no real-world EV experience, who have demonstrated their
interest in *blocking* the success of the technology!
Now, maybe orange cable is a good idea -- I don't know; I don't have all
the facts. But before we blindly accept it as a standard, shouldn't we
study the matter ourselves, and decide for ourselves if it makes sense?
Look at it this way; suppose Microsoft appointed themselves as the
standards committee for Linux. Would you trust their standards to be
fair and objective? Or, would you worry that they might be just a teensy
bit self-serving and anti-competitive?
> The jacket is chlorinated polyethylene. I believe that it will
> last longer than the thermoplastic on the standard cable. So why
> not go with it?
This is a good example of what I mean. If the insulation really is
polyethylene, than it is different than every other wire. It has a low
melting point. It burns ferociously, and the residue is highly
conductive. It easily cold-flows, so a wire crossing a hard corner will
gradually push thru the insulation and you have a short. It has poor
abrasion resistance, and easily wears thru. Ask a wire manufacturer;
nobody uses polyethylene for electrical insulation!
> There are much more important issues to work out in making a
> better EV, than the color of the cable.
Yes! I agree completely! We can't just wire EVs with orange cable and
say "There; now it's safe!"
As an engineer, I start by defining the problem. What are the
requirements?
- voltage rating
- current rating
- temperature rating
- flammability rating
- abrasion and cut resistance
- resistance to flexing and vibration
- independently tested (UL, CSA, CE etc.)
- environmental resistance (water, solvents, salt, etc.)
- life expectancy
- availability
- cost
and oh yes, as a minor consideration
- color
If all these factors are right except color, we can change the color;
use tape, or sleeving, or dye or something to get the color we want.
But if any of the important requirements aren't met, then the wire is
USELESS for the application even if it *is* orange.
Let's see what our REAL specifications are; then see if any of the
orange cables meet them. If we CAN, then we can decide among ourselves
that this is our "standard" high voltage EV wiring cable. Of course we
can't enforce it -- but people will naturally want to comply because we
will have so many good reasons to use it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
