EV Digest 4295
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Using two chargers on Elec-Trak
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EBEAA Rally this Saturday 4/23/05 10-4 in Pleasant Hill/Concord, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: about PHEV
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Deep discharge charging smells on the Electravan.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery Operating Voltages
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EDTA Calls for Electric Drive Support in Energy Bill
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fw: EDTA President Comments on National Energy Policy-April 20, 2005
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: about PHEV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) 13.5 hours charging
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just as a follow up on this, I tried it this past weekend. Not only did
it work, but even with a very (75%) discharged pack, and both Golf Cart
chargers giving 20 amps, they both ran out of the same electrical outlet
and did not trip a breaker or heat the wires more than just "slightly
warm". I didn't really expect to be able to do that, but I only had one
outlet at the time and thought, "what the hell, try it.."
Now I just need to come up with 6 new batteries for the I-5 so I can put
it's 3 year old pack into the E-12 to replace it's 10 year old pack.
1/2 acre per charge just doesn't cut it when you mow almost 2 acres.
James
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 12:57, Jim Coate wrote:
> Assuming that at least one of the two chargers is isolated (and most
> golf cart chargers would be... look for a transformer inside), then this
> should work fine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF RALLY ANNOUNCEMENT***********Topic: EV Servicing -
Aurenthetic EV MotorcycleDate: Saturday, April, 23, 2005Time: 10 am to 4
pm.Site: Diablo Valley College321 Golf Club Road, Pleasant Hill, CAPurpose:
Earth Day and public display/education/ridesOur Annual East Bay Rally in
Pleasant Hill / Concordis at hand - spring time and Earthdays. Hope we canhave
a healthy turnout, even with the distance some ofthe EVs need to be towed to
participate. At the end ofthe day/rally, we will award a prize for the
firstperson driving the loops to locate the homes with thePV panels on
them.Great opportunity to expose the general public to thevirtues of EVs. We
will be driving a circuit routearound the college, up and down hills, to
demonstratethe virtues of the EV. Those EVs which can carrypassengers provide
wonderful opportunities to discussthe EV mission to a captive audience.Instead
of the traditional distance rally, this yearwe have a route which travels
uphill and around t!
hecollege, to feature the performance of the EV.Main focus this year is to
display all types of EV:Electric Scooters, Electric Bicycles, Electric
Mopeds,Electric Motorcycles, Electric Cars, Electric Trucks.We'd like to see
any type of EV, from homemade eBikesto RAV4 EVs.See you
there.http://www.ebeaa.org**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
If you are using Hydro-Caps, make sure you have at least 3 inches space above
the batteries, with at least 1 inch space above the Caps to the battery box
cover. I did not do this, because of limits of space, so the Hydro-Cap told
me the next best thing was to have a good ventilation of filter air pipe in and
a all plastic vacuum fan pulling out the input air at the other end.
Also to keep the condensation down and the batteries cleaner, I install a 1
inch thick bed of baking soda for the batteries to set on.
I live in Montana, where it gets below -30 degrees, so I super insulated by
battery box with many layers of polystyrene Dow Corning 25 PSI sheet form, the
same blue stuff building contractors plaster over. You can also get 125 PSI
stuff that looks like white crystal glass that they pour building foundations
on.
I first build my battery boxes out of 1/4 thick fiberglass sheets that I had
the local fiberglass company make up in 4 foot by 8 foot by 1/4 inch sections.
One side is smooth and the other side is fiberglass cloth rough.
I cut the sections with a heavy duty power jig saw and assemble them together
using layers of fiber glass cloth and resin only on the rough outside. Leave a
crack or spacing at the joints of about 1/8 inch and fill that void in with
fiber glass putty on the inside.
My boxes have a 2 inch flange on top that goes outward, so there is a flat area
for a cover to seal down on. On the outside of the boxes, I than glue on the 2
inch thick foam. To keep the foam from physical damage, I also glue on a marine
type rug to the foam surface.
I plan to install the boxes in the bed of a pickup, not like I had before,
where they were in the open air. I therefore also fully insulated the inside
bed of the pickup with 2 inches of the same type of foam. You can carved the
foam with a electric bread knife to trim it. When install the foam on a metal
or even a concrete surface, space the foam at about 1/4 between all joints.
Then fill those joints in with a foam gun.
It is best to have the bed of a vehicle to be spray with a bedliner material,
before attaching the foam to. After I completely foam the inside of the pickup
box, I also cover it will marine type rug. This makes the battery box slide in
better without damage to the foam.
The R-Factor of this foam is 5 R's per inch. So I have 4 inches of foam at 20
R-Factor. The rugs, sheet metal and fiber glass box, adds about 2 R's for
about a total of 22 R-Factor.
Over the top of the fiberglass covers which has only a 1/2 thick marine rug
glue to, I have a lexan glass hatch cover that allows direct solar heating by
the sun, even on a clear day at -40 below zero!! I never added any additional
heating system to the batteries.
If you need any additional heating, apply the following calculation for the
amount of heating you will need.
Heating Formula:
Btur's = SF x u x TD
btur = measure of heat units per hour.
SF = Square foot of all external surfaces to the outside
ambient air.
TD = Temperature Difference between the ambient air
and the inside heated air.
For example, my battery box is 3.5 feet wide by 5 feet long by 12 inches high,
so the out side areas would be:
Top = 3.5 x 5 = 17.5 SF
Bottom = 3.5 x 5 = 17.5 SF
Sides = (3.5 + 3.5 + 5 + 5) x 1 = 17.5 SF
Total SF = 52.5
TD or Temperature Difference is what you want to choose
it to be. If you want to have the batteries at 70
degrees when its at 50 below, then your TD will be
120.
u = is U-Factor which is the R-Factor divided into 1.
Lets say the R-Factor is 22 than the U-Factor will be:
1/22 = 0.045
Therefore are heat loss formula is:
Btur's = SF x u x TD
= 52.5 x 0.045 x 120
= 283.5
If 3412 btu's = 1000 watts then:
283.5 = 83 watts
It will only take a 83 watts of energy to maintain 70 degrees of temperature
inside the battery box with 22 R-factor at 50 below zero.
If I cut the foam thickness from 4 inches to 2 inches, than the heat loss and
energy would double to 166 watts.
Therefore different foam thickness results would be for 50 square feet using
foam only:
Foam R-Factor TD Btur's Watts
4-in. 20 120 300 88
2-in. 10 120 600 176
1-in. 5 120 1200 352
.5-in. 2.5 120 2400 704
This is the additional heating wattage per hour if you let the car set out
side. I find running the EV, the battery heat adds to the energy heating. At
33 below, I can let the car set outside on a cloudy day for about a hour and
the battery box temperature is still above 75 degrees.
If it is sunny, I park the car with the glass cover to the sun and the battery
box heat is now above 80 degrees.
You can see this EV battery box system at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: mike golub<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:42 PM
Subject: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
I was going to build a battery box in a Suburu Station
Wagon. I was wondering which insulation material was
the best. My choices are fiberglass batt, cellulous
(recycle newspaper w/borax fire treatment) or foam.
I figure foam would be the easiest because it is
structural somewhat. But I was concerned about VOC,
off gassing and it can catch fire. Also I was
wondering about the long term effects of battery juice
on the foam.
The other two glass/cell would require a more
highly-structured frame. And are messy to work with.
Cellulose has some advantages with sound, when packed
tightly.
Also I wonder if that reflective foil would help any.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide<http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:12 PM -0700 on 4/19/05, Nick Austin wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2005 at 12:37:42AM -0500, Michael Hurley wrote:
At 12:35 PM -0700 on 4/19/05, Otmar wrote:
>Check out his website, I suspect he's earned the title.
I must have missed the link. I'd like to see it. What's the address? Thanks!
http://disgruntledpunk.com
Thanks!
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench is your guy for those temps.
In Boston we use and inch of rigid house insulating foam. And heaters.
But below -10F (no wind chill) is unusual. Nicads and insuation might
be a better idea, or go with a system like Roland has had luck with.
Seth
On Apr 20, 2005, at 5:27 AM, golubcu wrote:
I forgot to mention that I was going to make a sealed box with at
least R-15 all around. I was thinking about using those hydro caps.
I want to make this usable at -40 degrees in Alaska.
Thanks
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
At 09:42 PM 4/19/2005, you wrote:
I was going to build a battery box in a Suburu Station
Wagon. I was wondering which insulation material was
the best. My choices are fiberglass batt, cellulous
(recycle newspaper w/borax fire treatment) or foam.
The insulation need not be very thick. My favorite is the
corrugated plastic (polypropylene?) that they make campaign signs
out of.
Use a couple of layers in perpendicular orientation.
Strong enough to take the weight of the batteries. Acid
won't
touch it. Easy to cut to shape. Looks sharp and stays looking
sharp.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<Hello Mike,
...
You can see this EV battery box system at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.htm\
l>
Roland>>>
All good info, but what do you know about this part of his question:
<<<I figure foam would be the easiest because it is
structural somewhat. But I was concerned about VOC,
off gassing and it can catch fire. Also I was
wondering about the long term effects of battery juice
on the foam.>>>
I'd especially like to know about off-gassing and VOCs - unhealthy stuff, that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow. All three motors mounted in thin sheet metal & using one of the motors
to be the drive shaft? Nice light plan. Nice three motor installation.
Otmar will be envious. That thing should fly. Are you going to use a Gates
Poly Chain or belt? LR...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "golubcu"
Subject: Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
>
> I forgot to mention that I was going to make a sealed box with at
> least R-15 all around. I was thinking about using those hydro caps.
> I want to make this usable at -40 degrees in Alaska.
Hydrocaps are great. I use them in my Photovoltaic setup on my T-105's. I only
need to water the cells ever 6 months and then only a couple oz of water. They
are expensive, about $10 apiece. For each cell you need one hydrocap, so on a 6
volt that is +$30/battery. I'm not sure that on a EV they are cost effective.
I'm planning to have at least a 180 V pack (15 batteries), so that would be
about $450 for the hydrocaps. I'd rather spend that on a Battery Management
System or even put it back into more batteries.
Rush
Tucson Az
www.ironandwood.org
Converting a 86 Mitsubishi truck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ultracaps:
>
> http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm
>
>
Victor, I assume this is your AC Honda, very nice job with those Ultracaps.
Looking at the
configuration, it looks a lot like what I'm going to build, but with NiCads.
Lot's and lot's of
connections. It looks like you use stainless steel webbing in your
interconnects. Correct me if
I'm wrong, but I believe your AC system has lower current levels than most DC
systems. What are
those interconnects rated for? If the Ultracaps are there to provide higher
currents than the
traction pack can provide, what is the most they've carried? The page mentions
150amps, is that
the most your controller will draw from any source? (Higher draw for a short
time?) Do they ever
get hot?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am interested also in the belt routing. I have an exact duplication of
your pattern in mind. Two motors only the third will be the motor input to
a VW tranny. I want to use a Gates Poly Chain. LR>......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get a specification sheet from DOW. I don't have any trouble with any gassing
or acid fumes on this foam, because it is out of the atmosphere of the
batteries.
The batteries are totally enclosed in a seal battery container which the foam
is under a second set of fiberglass panels cover by nylon rug and not in the
air flow of the filter input and exhausting of the battery compartments.
If you have Hydrocaps on the batteries, than there is no problem!!!
Even the aluminum trims on the battery box covers are not effected by fumes.
If you look at the raise covers on my battery box, you see that they are still
super clean after 15 years!!! The secondary effects is that the batteries are
totally electrical isolated from the frame of the vehicle.
Before I had these boxes made, the battery compartment would get a dingy yellow
color with acid fumes and had battery arc over to epoxy coated aluminum boxes.
You must have complete isolation in battery atmospheres, electrical and
explosion proofing to be at maximum effectiveness.
When you are talking about a Temperature Difference of 120 degrees or more,
than you should use the best effective insulation possible. If you are not
worry about cost, you could use Angel Hair like they use on MARS that is good
for 300 degrees Temperature Difference.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Which insulation for battery box?(MIG)
<<<Hello Mike,
...
You can see this EV battery box system at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.htm\<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.htm/>
l>
Roland>>>
All good info, but what do you know about this part of his question:
<<<I figure foam would be the easiest because it is
structural somewhat. But I was concerned about VOC,
off gassing and it can catch fire. Also I was
wondering about the long term effects of battery juice
on the foam.>>>
I'd especially like to know about off-gassing and VOCs - unhealthy stuff,
that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's 10 and one half hours later. Meter on the Lester says 0 amps. No more
burning smell. It should shut off soon. Gees..............LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Deep discharge charging smells on the Electravan.
I discharged the Electravan to below 118vdc before bounce back. 26 miles
with a 1.5 hour opp. charge. The specific gravity was about 1150. The
voltage just about bounced bace to 120(119.95vdc) The SOC meter read about
22%after bounce back( 0% as I drove into the garage) It drove well clear
down to 0% climbed a steep hill with just a couple of mph less than normal.
(A half mile from my house.) Something doesn't add up. Today I
experienced the two lowest SOC's I have ever had in this vehice and on the
first opp charge I got the nylon burning smell that you get when you melt
the end of a poly rope. I only find some wires that are routed through the
controller(charge wires) that are warm and evidence of previous melting of
some connectors. Can't seem to localize where it's comming from. No
connections to any battery are hot. Smells like something is melting bad.
Actully burning. Anybody know a bad spot in the 750 Electravan charge
wiring? Also shouldn't the SOC meter read 0% at 120vdc???
All in all the range of this Electravan is dissapointing. Probably only
22 miles or so on a charge. Probably time to put the cap between the pack
and the controller.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortu -- www.fortu.de -- is supposed to be coming out with such batteries by
the end of 2005. Of course, that's updated from the end of 2003 and the end
of 2004. :(
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:37 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
<< So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
...
How much do they cost...? O.o
...
Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS? >>
Which AGMs are you looking at? 16Ah Genesis batteries like drag racers use
weigh
378lbs for 28, capable of maxing a Z1K, but maybe not a Z2K. It appears that
all
lithium chemistries need some form of BMS, and as to cost, "If you have to
ask..."! For non-drag-racing use, Thuder-Sky cells are the cheapest so far.
Milwaukee Tool's V28 battery runs $125 from Tool Authority (.com), but I
wonder
about that designation - if it's 7 cells, it should be nominally 25.2-25.9V
(ion vs poly) and range from 21V or less fully drained to 29.4V fully
charged.
Do these have different voltage ranges than the lithiums Victor sells (TS
and
Kokam)? At 4Ah and 2# per pack, that's 20lbs and $1250/kwh.
Does the casing have the BMS or is it dependent on the charger for max
voltage
cutoff?
Can't find any listing of peak amp rate - anyone know what it is?
Wonder if we can get just the individual cells - the size and weight looks
like
26650 cells (common, but not as common as 18650's), and these typically
average
3.2Ah/90gm each; if they were the new VT cells from SAFT, they'd be only 2Ah
each, capable of 25C discharges, and wouldn't have been developed by
Milwaukee
Tool at all (unless they funded some of SAFT's R&D costs).
In comparison, http://www.batterieswholesale.com/lithium_battery.htm as a
source
works out to 17lbs and $1925/kwh with a 7C constant/10C peak discharge.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IS there any way to revive a battery that had voltage reversal? I had
one battery that had cell reversal yesterday and today the specific gravity
reads nothing.
Larry Cronk 72
Datsun ELEC TK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
How much do they cost...? O.o
Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS?
How about range estimates on the non lead batteries if we were
figuring about 30 - 40 miles on the lead? I was only set on 336 volts
AGM because that was all I could fit! Now we can take it to the
"limit" at 348!..
Otmar, any chance of making the Zilla handle 400+ volts nominal?
Victor, what will it take to make your ACRX a terror at the drag strip?
*This* ACRX - not a chance - this is my daily commuter.
Another one - no problem it will take about 50-70k to do it.
As I and many said, speed costs money. I firmly believe anyone can
buy record speed (but not necessarily respect associated with it).
Basically it is buying record speed hardware - very little driver's
skill needed - stomp on accelerator and keep the car straight
for 1/4 mile.
All the respect should go to designer(s) and builders. And you
can buy designers and builders (their time).
Buying bragging rights to be the quickest for that much money is not
worth *for me*. If I had free 50k laying around, I'd rather
produce few more versions of BMS.
But I can imagine others will spend any kind of money to be
on top for a while, as in any record setting sport. And I respect
that, including guys in Woodburn racing on budgets. Constrains
always inspire creativity and enginuity - the qualities I respect
the most.
I have access to the hardware I think capable of making
a car very quick if not the quickest on the drag strip or oval track.
Buy my time and right hardware I specify and you're set.
I'll be very excited to build a beast - perhaps I like the process
more than outcome.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Washington, DCâApril 20, 2005âThe Electric Drive Transportation
Association (EDTA) calls upon Congress to pass comprehensive energy
legislation that includes meaningful incentives for battery, hybrid and
fuel cell electric drive vehicles and infrastructure. EDTA is the trade
association representing the electric drive industry, including
automakers, utilities, technology suppliers and government agencies.
âElectric drive is a proven solution for three critical issues that
America faces,â says EDTA President Brian Wynne. âThe widespread use
of electric drive in the transportation sector will decrease our
dependence on foreign oil, reduce pollution, and decrease greenhouse gas
emissions.â
EDTA advocates the promotion of electric drive through the inclusion of
the following three provisions in comprehensive energy legislation:
Consumer-based tax credits for the purchase of electric and hybrid
electric vehicles;
Flexibility in federal fleet purchase requirements to include low speed
electric and hybrid electric vehicles; and,Â
Robust federal investment in hydrogen and fuel cell electric vehicles.
âAmericaâs oil-dominant path in the transportation sector is not
sustainable,â says Wynne. âOur national energy policy should include
provisions that will accelerate the use of electric drive vehicles by
consumers and fleets, hasten progress toward the adoption of fuel cell
technology, and ultimately, make sustainable mobility a reality in the
United States.â
Energy and Transportation Facts:
Every $10 increase in a barrel of oil equals a .5 to 1% loss in Gross
Domestic Product.
By the year 2020, estimates project that the U.S. transportation sector
will consume twice as much petroleum as the U.S. produces.
A one-cent increase in the price of a gallon of gas represents $1.3
billion more in costs to consumers.
Although hybrids are up to 40% more fuel efficient than a traditional
vehicle, they are not eligible for the credit requirements under the
Energy Policy Act of 1992 (EPAct), which requires that state and federal
government fleets convert an increasing percentage of fleets to
alternative fuel vehicles; thus, compliance with EPAct is increasingly
difficult for fleet managers.
Electric Drive Facts:
Hybrid vehicles achieve up to 40% better fuel economy than traditional
vehicles, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions by up to 50%.
Sales of hybrid electric vehicles are estimated to reach 200,000 in
2005, accounting for just over 1% of the entire automotive market in the
United States.
By 2006, 17 hybrid electric models will be available to consumers and
fleet owners.
Battery electric vehicles produce no tailpipe emissions.
Media Availability Notice:
Brian Wynne, President of the Electric Drive Transportation Association
(EDTA), is available to address media questions regarding the status of
the energy bill in the Congress. To set up an interview, call EDTA at
202-408-0774.
About EDTA:
EDTA is the preeminent industry association dedicated to advancing
electric drive as a core technology on the road to sustainable mobility.
Our membership includes a diverse representation of vehicle and
equipment manufacturers, energy providers, component suppliers and end
users. As an advocate for the adoption of electric drive technologies,
EDTA serves as the unified voice for the industry and is the primary
source of information and education related to electric drive.
Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA)
1350 I Street, NW
Suite 1050
Washington, DC 20005
202-408-0774
www.electricdrive.org
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
After watching this video:
http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Has someone taken a Thundersky and a Kokam and crushed them and poked
holes in them to see if anything happens or if they are benign?
I haven't, but personally saw a video of this being done, just
like valence video. TS ones are just as benign.
I may be able to get that video.
I can't comment on Kokam ones - haven't seen any similar info.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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No, the ultracaps interconnects are made the same way as LiIon
interconnects - braded strip and crimped lugs. See
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/wire.htm
Only the cell studs and washers/nuts are stainless steel.
The battery current is 150A max at hard acceleration.
The system allows up to 280A but I was never able to take
advantage of it - the car doesn't grip and loose traction
if I press hard. The only time when I can get it peg
is if I accelerate while already at high speed.
That is when it consumes or supplies (regen) ~150A battery current.
Around 110A (average) of it comes from ultracaps and 40A
- from the battery. If acceleration lasts longer than 10
sec, the currents become about equal, but by then I'm
*usually* at the speed I want to be at.
The strips are gauge 4. Will handle 100A very easily.
In steady driving ultracaps do not participate at all,
so continuous rating won't matter at all.
Dave Cover wrote:
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ultracaps:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm
Victor, I assume this is your AC Honda, very nice job with those Ultracaps. Looking at the
configuration, it looks a lot like what I'm going to build, but with NiCads. Lot's and lot's of
connections. It looks like you use stainless steel webbing in your interconnects. Correct me if
I'm wrong, but I believe your AC system has lower current levels than most DC systems. What are
those interconnects rated for? If the Ultracaps are there to provide higher currents than the
traction pack can provide, what is the most they've carried? The page mentions 150amps, is that
the most your controller will draw from any source? (Higher draw for a short time?) Do they ever
get hot?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it has been awhile - almost 4 years, I guess.
I've been charging them six batteries at a time in parallel with an old
12V ZAP charger. I've been told a constant float charge will shorten
their lives if they're not properly cycled which they've never been.
Did I hear correctly?
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <>
> Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here
;o)
>
> Steve
>
yes it looks like its comming along , looks like a fast one :-) , been
awhile on those batteries , are you charging them once in a while .?
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lee Hart"
Subject: Re: Batt-Bridge monitor
> I published a very simple circuit on
> the EV list in July 2004 to do this.
Lee,
I got to the archives at crest.org and they only have prior to 2003, could you
repost the circuit or if it is at another site, post the link?
I do want to have a monitor of battery charge and what is happening. What I
really want is some sort of BMS. My other option is your Balancer that is
posted at
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/index.htm. Are there any
updates on the circuits? Do you or anybody have any plans to build one and
order boards or parts? I would certainly put in for a set or 2.
Thanks
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After discharging and the voltage returning to 120vdc. I charged for 13.5
hours to get a full charge. This vehicle has a major parasitic load. It
aught to be able to go a long way. The amp draw does not justify the drain.
Maybe a different ammeter or cleaning the contacts is in order. LR.........
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All the motors, I believe, will be turning the same direction. Are you
concerned about tensioning?
The plates you see are only mockups. The final plates will be webbed.
Here is an image of what they had in their CAD app before the motors
were moved to starboard to make room for the drivers' feet:
http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/CurrentTasks/MotorPlate.JPG .
Hopefully I'll get a new CAD drawing soon.
The motors were advanced by NetGain for racing. Will there be a reason
to adjust this timing later? What do you think would be the best place
to put these access holes and how large should they be?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
Is one motor turning the opposite direction of the other two?
Are you leaving slots in the mounting holes to allow the motor timing to
be
changed?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Just added a couple more pictures to
> http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html showing all three motors mounted
> to the adapter place mockups.
>
> Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here
;o)
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Steve Marks
> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> ...can be found at http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html .
>
> The builders have done a nice job in installing rails for the battery
> boxes to mount to near the rear of the vehicle. Towards the bottom of
> the page are pictures of mockups of the adapter plates the motors and
> bellhousing are to mount to.
>
> Steve
>
>
> The information contained in this email message is being transmitted
to
and is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is
addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
you
are hereby advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
this
message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error,
please immediately delete.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gates Poly chain is a belt
I am worried about all the torque and the mounting plates also.
What kind of motors?? Warp What? 7s or 8s?
They look different than the Warp 8s I handled for the Uof W team two weeks
ago.
I would love to stuff 1000 amps into them and see what happens on the Dyno.
A bit if historic warnings... the Megawatt monster of Bob Boyds, had
tripple motors and 2 sets. For 6 motors. This package has never performed as
well as it should.
There was a LOT of parasitic losses and hard to ballence currents and
curves.
It should GO like heck. But it has not impressed me.
The Silver bullet of Tom True's has a single set of these motors from
the Megawatt monster. I have driven it, it's fun and will rip your head off.
But at 120 volts it's reliable and setting record as of last year.
But we shot for many more volts and all they did was break controllers and
drive train parts. With a Raptor 1200 per motor, and 120 volts They can
atleast make many runs. They broke the rear end halfshaft at Vegas last
year, just playing with it in first gear. GOT torque. Now they need to get
some high end pull. That's going to take more volts and more motor work.
The plates that hold the motor in line needs to be hell for stout, and as
light as they can make it. There's gonna be thousands of pounds of force
trying to crush it and bend it.
And Joe is right in asking how the Brush end is going to be clear for
advancing efforts.
We will see. Steve needs to get it down the track acouple of times before we
really decend on him for better designs. This one will work.
I have no doubts from the Flywheel clutch face back. The rest is about as
good as it gets.
I wish I had this toy Box of parts to play with....
Gone Postal is a Joke compared to the level of drive train parts that this
Ev will have.
Frankly this level of drive train engineering is WHAT should have been
designed into GP, in the first place.
I am Green with envey.
Steve ???
Need a driver????
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> Wow. All three motors mounted in thin sheet metal & using one of the
motors
> to be the drive shaft? Nice light plan. Nice three motor installation.
> Otmar will be envious. That thing should fly. Are you going to use a
Gates
> Poly Chain or belt? LR...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Yes, it has been awhile - almost 4 years, I guess.
>
> I've been charging them six batteries at a time in parallel with an old
> 12V ZAP charger. I've been told a constant float charge will shorten
> their lives if they're not properly cycled which they've never been.
>
> Did I hear correctly?
>
> Steve
> www.ghiamonster.com
Steve with your budget and the level of EV you are pursuing.... GET NEW
LEAD!
4 years of shelf life is foolish.
You need to cycle them, Toss the ones that don't make %80 capacity.
Then do a battery blast on each one... Not more than 950 amps and not below
6 volts. If they don't make 850 amps a stay above 6 volts. Remove and
replace them.
This is s 10 second test. Note the Bill Dube vented SVR14s with 950 battery
amps a about 5 seconds of full amps. His lead was new, less than 1 year old.
You are going to Bust Butt keeping the SVRs on line and working to thier
best. Think Hawkers, and the Aero Spec ones. Also You need Regs. Or some
way to keep them all ballenced .
You can have %15 unequalization force for every run down the track. 7 runs
and you will desprately need equalization efforts.
With the level of Ev you are shooting for. Accepting anything but tested
perfection is robbing you of the performance you expect.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The front braket... the brush end mounting holes will need to be slotted.
The Flywheel plate will be the one that has to be hell for stout.
The Brush end just needs to keep the motor end from dancing and shaking.
Timing is a art. One single setting only gives you a single operational
performance point. Adjustment is going to as you need it.
As I recall Warp is using 12+ Deg of advance. This could be too much, or
could be about perfect. The point is give your self the option.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> All the motors, I believe, will be turning the same direction. Are you
> concerned about tensioning?
>
> The plates you see are only mockups. The final plates will be webbed.
> Here is an image of what they had in their CAD app before the motors
> were moved to starboard to make room for the drivers' feet:
> http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/CurrentTasks/MotorPlate.JPG .
> Hopefully I'll get a new CAD drawing soon.
>
> The motors were advanced by NetGain for racing. Will there be a reason
> to adjust this timing later? What do you think would be the best place
> to put these access holes and how large should they be?
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:21 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Is one motor turning the opposite direction of the other two?
>
> Are you leaving slots in the mounting holes to allow the motor timing to
> be
> changed?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:50 PM
> Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
>
> >
> > Just added a couple more pictures to
> > http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html showing all three motors mounted
> > to the adapter place mockups.
> >
> > Against my better judgment I'm starting to get kind of excited here
> ;o)
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > Behalf Of Steve Marks
> > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:58 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> >
> > ...can be found at http://www.ghiamonster.com/tasks.html .
> >
> > The builders have done a nice job in installing rails for the battery
> > boxes to mount to near the rear of the vehicle. Towards the bottom of
> > the page are pictures of mockups of the adapter plates the motors and
> > bellhousing are to mount to.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > The information contained in this email message is being transmitted
> to
> and is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is
> addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
> you
> are hereby advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
> this
> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
> error,
> please immediately delete.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
