EV Digest 4296
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Alabama and Suggestions
by Richard Marcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Lithium safety (Re: Having second...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Energy content and ICE efficiency
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lithium safety (Re: Having second...
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EVLN(EDTA wants tax credit$, fleet flexibility, Robust fed inve$tment$)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Ford IRS
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Build an EV from the ground up
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lithium safety (Re: Having second...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Problem with T-Rex throttle setting
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Painting wire, was: Wire Gauge questions
by Matt Holthausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 4/20/2005 01:03 PM, Steve Marks wrote:
The plates you see are only mockups. The final plates will be webbed.
Here is an image of what they had in their CAD app before the motors
were moved to starboard to make room for the drivers' feet:
http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/CurrentTasks/MotorPlate.JPG .
Hopefully I'll get a new CAD drawing soon.
I am not a mechanical engineer, but that plate looks like every link will
end up with a different level of stress under load. Webbing should connect
to the outer edge in line with the torque. An example of even a small etek
mount is : http://www.robotcombat.com/images/store_etekmount-sm.jpg
A mechanical engineer could probably show the expected stresses as a color
gradient which would highlight where the shorter links would really bare
the brunt of the stress when the longer webs bent or stretched
slightly. And the combination of all three motors will be intense. Or is
that a 2" titanium plate? :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TS are definitely the more expensive lithium cells, we are seeing our 36V
50Ah TS pack dying after little more than 50 cycles (1/3 capacity lost),
never discharged to 0, never more than 100Amp (in fact the cells can't),
charged carrefully respecting Lithium typical algorythm CC/CV at C/10
current.
I think for the moment, Kokam is the way to have our money back out of
Lithium technologie.
For little quantities consider 2,25Ah Lipoly cells capable of 12C max (200
cycle), 500 cycle at 5C continuous, $14 each for 500.
Parrelleling would be easier than 18650 and other cylindrical cells.
look here:
http://www.maxamps.com/
though more expensive for few cells, Kokam would be cheaper and simpler(no
paralleling assembly), they quote me about $1,4/wh, caldendar life about 5
years and price go down fast with quantities, will test this on our scooter
soon...
Price FOB china.
Saft li-ion VL exist in 4,5ah and 6AH too BUT they are Robbery, same for
their EV sized module VL41 to VL45.
Philippe
just a question of time
:^)
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
> Fortu -- www.fortu.de -- is supposed to be coming out with such batteries
by
> the end of 2005. Of course, that's updated from the end of 2003 and the
end
> of 2004. :(
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:37 PM
> To: EV Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
>
> << So if 336 volts of AGM's weigh 1,120 lbs, how much does 336 volts of
> either ThunderSkys or Kokams weigh? How many of each brand will it
> take to get 336 volts? Can we pull ~2000 amps from the pack?
> ...
> How much do they cost...? O.o
> ...
> Any chance of getting some Li.* batteries that don't need a BMS? >>
>
> Which AGMs are you looking at? 16Ah Genesis batteries like drag racers use
> weigh
> 378lbs for 28, capable of maxing a Z1K, but maybe not a Z2K. It appears
that
> all
> lithium chemistries need some form of BMS, and as to cost, "If you have to
> ask..."! For non-drag-racing use, Thuder-Sky cells are the cheapest so
far.
>
> Milwaukee Tool's V28 battery runs $125 from Tool Authority (.com), but I
> wonder
> about that designation - if it's 7 cells, it should be nominally
25.2-25.9V
> (ion vs poly) and range from 21V or less fully drained to 29.4V fully
> charged.
> Do these have different voltage ranges than the lithiums Victor sells (TS
> and
> Kokam)? At 4Ah and 2# per pack, that's 20lbs and $1250/kwh.
>
> Does the casing have the BMS or is it dependent on the charger for max
> voltage
> cutoff?
>
> Can't find any listing of peak amp rate - anyone know what it is?
>
> Wonder if we can get just the individual cells - the size and weight looks
> like
> 26650 cells (common, but not as common as 18650's), and these typically
> average
> 3.2Ah/90gm each; if they were the new VT cells from SAFT, they'd be only
2Ah
> each, capable of 25C discharges, and wouldn't have been developed by
> Milwaukee
> Tool at all (unless they funded some of SAFT's R&D costs).
>
> In comparison, http://www.batterieswholesale.com/lithium_battery.htm as a
> source
> works out to 17lbs and $1925/kwh with a 7C constant/10C peak discharge.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, i talk few days ago (at EVS21) to a French lithium batteries
specialist who visit an independant battery testing near TS company, he said
the test room was still full of what you call "benign" results about
identified TS exploded and flamed cells parts.
The ONLY safe technologie is Valence Saphion and other brand i don't recall
anymore the name BUT certainly not TS or SAFT or all other brands based on
cobalt, manganese...
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: Having second thoughts on AGM's (weight)
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> >
> > After watching this video:
> >
> > http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
> >
> > Has someone taken a Thundersky and a Kokam and crushed them and poked
> > holes in them to see if anything happens or if they are benign?
>
> I haven't, but personally saw a video of this being done, just
> like valence video. TS ones are just as benign.
> I may be able to get that video.
>
> I can't comment on Kokam ones - haven't seen any similar info.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First, anybody in this group -- or anyone else known
-- in Northern Alabama/Southern TN? Here in
NASCARland driving an EV is a pretty big social
challenge!
Second, any suggestions?: I am troubleshooting. I had
that which we all hate most, dying while cruising down
the road. The pack (12 T-145s) is still charged (56v
by hand voltmeter). The motor is making the right
sounds. But when the "gas" is depressed the car
doesn't move (forward or reverse). The problem occured
suddenly (like when there is blown fuse or popped
wire). The line from the pedal itself has appropriate
tension and movement. Anyone have ideas on where to
begin investigating?
thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The plates will be 1/2 inch thick aluminum. I'm no mechanical engineer
either but I'm assured by the builder they'll take the 1000 ft lbs of
torque the motors can put out. However, since we have a tranny, it
seems unlikely we'll be able to use that much torque before breaking the
tires loose in first gear.
Are there any mechanical engineers here who could comment on this?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gordon Niessen
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
At 4/20/2005 01:03 PM, Steve Marks wrote:
>The plates you see are only mockups. The final plates will be webbed.
>Here is an image of what they had in their CAD app before the motors
>were moved to starboard to make room for the drivers' feet:
>http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/CurrentTasks/MotorPlate.JPG .
>Hopefully I'll get a new CAD drawing soon.
I am not a mechanical engineer, but that plate looks like every link
will
end up with a different level of stress under load. Webbing should
connect
to the outer edge in line with the torque. An example of even a small
etek
mount is : http://www.robotcombat.com/images/store_etekmount-sm.jpg
A mechanical engineer could probably show the expected stresses as a
color
gradient which would highlight where the shorter links would really bare
the brunt of the stress when the longer webs bent or stretched
slightly. And the combination of all three motors will be intense. Or
is
that a 2" titanium plate? :-)
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:55 PM 4/20/2005, you wrote:
At 4/20/2005 01:03 PM, Steve Marks wrote:
The plates you see are only mockups. The final plates will be webbed.
Here is an image of what they had in their CAD app before the motors
were moved to starboard to make room for the drivers' feet:
http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/CurrentTasks/MotorPlate.JPG .
Hopefully I'll get a new CAD drawing soon.
I am not a mechanical engineer, but that plate looks like every link will
end up with a different level of stress under load. Webbing should
connect to the outer edge in line with the torque. An example of even a
small etek mount is : http://www.robotcombat.com/images/store_etekmount-sm.jpg
A mechanical engineer could probably show the expected stresses as a color
gradient which would highlight where the shorter links would really bare
the brunt of the stress when the longer webs bent or stretched
slightly. And the combination of all three motors will be intense. Or is
that a 2" titanium plate? :-)
That was my first thought, not that my first thoughts have never gotten me
into trouble, the triangles should have the big end pointing at the motor
to put the ribs in tension/compression. As it is I think all the torque is
being taken by the flat plate and the only thing the ribs are doing is
keeping the plate flat.
___________
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have the tranny chosen yet? I have a specially made VW Syncro
tranny with a locking differential for an earlier iteration of the
Ghiamonster that's looking for a home. It's supposed to be pretty tough
but the builder wouldn't stand behind it for 1000 ft lbs ;o)
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
I am interested also in the belt routing. I have an exact duplication
of
your pattern in mind. Two motors only the third will be the motor input
to
a VW tranny. I want to use a Gates Poly Chain. LR>......
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
TS are definitely the more expensive lithium cells, we are seeing our 36V
50Ah TS pack dying after little more than 50 cycles (1/3 capacity lost),
never discharged to 0, never more than 100Amp (in fact the cells can't),
charged carrefully respecting Lithium typical algorythm CC/CV at C/10
current.
What makes you think that "Lithium typical" algorithm is suitable
for TS cells?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
Victor, i talk few days ago (at EVS21) to a French lithium batteries
specialist who visit an independant battery testing near TS company, he said
the test room was still full of what you call "benign" results about
identified TS exploded and flamed cells parts.
Was that french specialist a SAFT employee by chance?
The ONLY safe technologie is Valence Saphion and other brand i don't recall
anymore the name BUT certainly not TS or SAFT or all other brands based on
cobalt, manganese...
Philippe
Not to defend TS (ANY company has own problems, SAFT and Saphion
included), but I'd like to see objective data before commenting.
When he subjects Valence cells to exactly the same abuse tests
as TS ones, we will talk about results.
Valence is typical in screaming PR "we're the only company
making safe battery". THey have NO way of knowing who else
might come up with just as safe solution, which will invalidate
their propaganda, but who cares. People is trained not to believe
any of these statements anyway, smart ones need PROOF.
Valence can proof that their cellsare safe by showing its video,
but no way they can proof than ANY other company's product
but theirs is unsafe. Yet, they imply it and you seem to
have been bought into it.
Kokam will tell you exactly the same - I personally talked to
their CEO during out meeting in LA. He said with straight face to me
Our batery is safe, safest you can find. I told him: well might be, but
others claim the same thing. He replied "I don't care about others,
I know my battery is safe".
Take it at face value (you know what this means, don't you?)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inline...
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
Gates Poly chain is a belt
I am worried about all the torque and the mounting plates also.
What kind of motors?? Warp What? 7s or 8s?
They look different than the Warp 8s I handled for the Uof W team two
weeks
ago.
*****
These are Warp 8s with Split brushes rated for 350V and reinforced
interconnect cabling
*****
I would love to stuff 1000 amps into them and see what happens on the
Dyno.
*****
That would indeed be interesting though I thought you had already done
some tests with the Warp 8"ers. What'd you find out?
*****
A bit if historic warnings... the Megawatt monster of Bob Boyds, had
tripple motors and 2 sets. For 6 motors. This package has never
performed as
well as it should.
There was a LOT of parasitic losses and hard to ballence currents and
curves.
It should GO like heck. But it has not impressed me.
The Silver bullet of Tom True's has a single set of these motors
from
the Megawatt monster. I have driven it, it's fun and will rip your head
off.
But at 120 volts it's reliable and setting record as of last year.
But we shot for many more volts and all they did was break controllers
and
drive train parts. With a Raptor 1200 per motor, and 120 volts They can
atleast make many runs. They broke the rear end halfshaft at Vegas last
year, just playing with it in first gear. GOT torque. Now they need to
get
some high end pull. That's going to take more volts and more motor work.
*****
Each of the Ghia's motors will have their own Zilla 1K HV controller
wired in parallel to a single 336V pack of 14ah SVR buddy triplets.
It seems that we should have plenty of voltage even at 50% sag to
fireball the motors if we don't set a motor voltage limit on the Zilla.
*****
The plates that hold the motor in line needs to be hell for stout, and
as
light as they can make it. There's gonna be thousands of pounds of force
trying to crush it and bend it.
And Joe is right in asking how the Brush end is going to be clear for
advancing efforts.
We will see. Steve needs to get it down the track acouple of times
before we
really decend on him for better designs. This one will work.
I have no doubts from the Flywheel clutch face back. The rest is about
as
good as it gets.
*****
Do you think 1/2 inch aluminum will be sufficient?
I just talked to the builder and he fully intends to put timing slots on
the plate. Now, we just need to figure which plate this is. Is this
the one on the pulley side of the motor or on the opposite side?
*****
I wish I had this toy Box of parts to play with....
Gone Postal is a Joke compared to the level of drive train parts that
this
Ev will have.
Frankly this level of drive train engineering is WHAT should have been
designed into GP, in the first place.
*****
If there's one lesson I've learned from the EV drag racing crowd, it's
to use stout components. From the Lenco (John Wayland's suggestion) to
the Strange rear end, we're building the car to go much quicker than the
batteries we can get today can push us. I expect it to be pretty
reliable.
*****
I am Green with envey.
Steve ???
Need a driver????
*****
I would love to have the many people that've been helping me with this
project take the car down the track when it's eventually complete. The
project's starting to pick up pace and I'm hoping that late this year it
will actually be drivable.
Madman, wanna come down to San Diego for a ride sometime? =o)
*****
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> Wow. All three motors mounted in thin sheet metal & using one of the
motors
> to be the drive shaft? Nice light plan. Nice three motor
installation.
> Otmar will be envious. That thing should fly. Are you going to use a
Gates
> Poly Chain or belt? LR...
>
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Marks wrote:
The plates will be 1/2 inch thick aluminum. I'm no mechanical engineer
either but I'm assured by the builder they'll take the 1000 ft lbs of
torque the motors can put out. However, since we have a tranny, it
seems unlikely we'll be able to use that much torque before breaking the
tires loose in first gear.
Are there any mechanical engineers here who could comment on this?
Steve
I'm not the one, but can relay what I've been told by one who made my
plate. ALl depends on the type of aluminum and temper.
You can have it almost as strong as steel, but it will be very brittle.
You'd *want* to reserve for some flex, but this means less strength.
He asked me why not make a plate out of webbed steel rather
than aluminum. Cutouts in steel may be larger for the same
strength and overall weight *may* end up be lower - depending
on how skillfully those webs are placed.
Radial links will brake when twisted, you have to make
them at the angles so they are compressed (or stretched),
but not bent. Look at the bycicle sprockets - most "links"
are not straight radial.
I couldn't comment on that.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
be carreful with torque and speed on synchronous belts, Gates poly chain is
one of the best polyurethane/kevlar belt (so strong she can outlife chain)
BUT you have to validate your design before testing, don't make same mistake
than Gone postal ;^)
You need Gates PolyChain 14M-PCGT2 or Powergrip 14M-PGGT3
pitch 14 (biggest available)
choose maximum width 90mm or 125mm, for your power level maybe you need two
side by side (so more than 1000KW transmission is ok)....
be carreful with belt speed because Polychain degrade faster after 4000
rev/m, Powergrip GT3 is ok up to 10 000 rev but have less torque resistance.
be carefull with motor pulley teeth number, not enough and torque is going
to kill belt teeth at launch.
I advise you to download free Designflex 2K to make all your calculation.
fascinating project,keep us posted please,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
> Gates Poly chain is a belt
>
> I am worried about all the torque and the mounting plates also.
> What kind of motors?? Warp What? 7s or 8s?
> They look different than the Warp 8s I handled for the Uof W team two
weeks
> ago.
>
> I would love to stuff 1000 amps into them and see what happens on the
Dyno.
>
> A bit if historic warnings... the Megawatt monster of Bob Boyds, had
> tripple motors and 2 sets. For 6 motors. This package has never performed
as
> well as it should.
> There was a LOT of parasitic losses and hard to ballence currents and
> curves.
> It should GO like heck. But it has not impressed me.
> The Silver bullet of Tom True's has a single set of these motors from
> the Megawatt monster. I have driven it, it's fun and will rip your head
off.
> But at 120 volts it's reliable and setting record as of last year.
> But we shot for many more volts and all they did was break controllers and
> drive train parts. With a Raptor 1200 per motor, and 120 volts They can
> atleast make many runs. They broke the rear end halfshaft at Vegas last
> year, just playing with it in first gear. GOT torque. Now they need to get
> some high end pull. That's going to take more volts and more motor work.
>
> The plates that hold the motor in line needs to be hell for stout, and as
> light as they can make it. There's gonna be thousands of pounds of force
> trying to crush it and bend it.
> And Joe is right in asking how the Brush end is going to be clear for
> advancing efforts.
> We will see. Steve needs to get it down the track acouple of times before
we
> really decend on him for better designs. This one will work.
> I have no doubts from the Flywheel clutch face back. The rest is about as
> good as it gets.
>
> I wish I had this toy Box of parts to play with....
>
> Gone Postal is a Joke compared to the level of drive train parts that this
> Ev will have.
> Frankly this level of drive train engineering is WHAT should have been
> designed into GP, in the first place.
>
> I am Green with envey.
> Steve ???
> Need a driver????
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:57 AM
> Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
>
> > Wow. All three motors mounted in thin sheet metal & using one of the
> motors
> > to be the drive shaft? Nice light plan. Nice three motor
installation.
> > Otmar will be envious. That thing should fly. Are you going to use a
> Gates
> > Poly Chain or belt? LR...
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
cowtown wrote:
> Replace the Metro's engine with one of these, and the same 50mph gives
> 79-88mpg.
Maybe. Are you getting those fuel numbers from the motor idling with
no load? Put a load on it and see how much fuel it needs. A Geo
going down the highway is going to put significantly more load on the
motor requiring more throttle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar,
I've been wanting to comment on the van thread, because I don't think a van
would be very good for floodies, unless he's going to cut holes in the
floor to access them. Even with sealed batteries, you still need to check
interconnects on a low voltage (144V), high current EV. Think pickup truck,
which is designed to carry extra weight, with a tilt bed to access the
batteries, which are hung down low...
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:35:40 -0700
>From: Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snip>
>Still, I really like his Van as a platform. Looks like a good base
>for a utility EV.
>
>Have fun!
>--
>-Otmar-
>
>http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
>http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll definitely be looking at replacement batteries once the car is up
and running. From all the posts on newbies murdering their batteries,
however, it seems wise to kill these first before looking for more
victims.
Anyways, maybe some kind of sponsorship for lithium somethings might be
possible by the time these batteries are completely worthless.
Dreaming's cheap anyways...
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: New pictures of the Ghiamonster
>
> Yes, it has been awhile - almost 4 years, I guess.
>
> I've been charging them six batteries at a time in parallel with an
old
> 12V ZAP charger. I've been told a constant float charge will shorten
> their lives if they're not properly cycled which they've never been.
>
> Did I hear correctly?
>
> Steve
> www.ghiamonster.com
Steve with your budget and the level of EV you are pursuing.... GET NEW
LEAD!
4 years of shelf life is foolish.
You need to cycle them, Toss the ones that don't make %80 capacity.
Then do a battery blast on each one... Not more than 950 amps and not
below
6 volts. If they don't make 850 amps a stay above 6 volts. Remove and
replace them.
This is s 10 second test. Note the Bill Dube vented SVR14s with 950
battery
amps a about 5 seconds of full amps. His lead was new, less than 1 year
old.
You are going to Bust Butt keeping the SVRs on line and working to thier
best. Think Hawkers, and the Aero Spec ones. Also You need Regs. Or
some
way to keep them all ballenced .
You can have %15 unequalization force for every run down the track. 7
runs
and you will desprately need equalization efforts.
With the level of Ev you are shooting for. Accepting anything but tested
perfection is robbing you of the performance you expect.
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
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--- Begin Message ---
hi Victor :^)
this man knows about TS products since their begining and helped with a
French van conversion to TS cells instead of original Saft nicad (picture of
the van car on TS pages)
he is EDF (electricity of France) engineer paid to know about batteries,
certainly more than you and me together, he don't work for any battery
company and care only about independant test so i trust him when he told me,
actually only Valence can tell "my batterie is safe under all abuse".
to play a little with lithium, i tested individual 18650 i had from laptop
(1200mah to 2000mah) Nrg cells, Toshiba brand, sony and non identified cells
with same results than the Valence video (it give me idea to make it in
fact), positive side open with flames.
power supply to 2Amp, going up voltage from 4V to more and more waiting
"first bad result"
The better one (in my test) is Sony which needed more than 7V to open with
no flame, just very hot smoke.
ALL other opened with flames and hot smoke.
No Valence on my hand though...
cruching and pinching they ALL opened with flames VERY fast, no need to
press them more than 4mm to see bad result.
I meet the Kokam CEO at EVS21 (I talk to Valence and many other company
about lithium usual question), face to face like you said, where do you
think i had the 5 years MAX !!! calendar life answer...from Kokam CEO mouth,
very honest CEO...when you ask the good question :^)
it showed me interesting data about overcharge which is now (fourth
generation) more than 12V "charge" voltage before "annoying results",
crushing and pinching is >250�C smoke (level 3) and/or...fire.(level 4 risk
on his graph)
Lithium technologie is more dangerous than others, plating lithium metal +
O2 makes a little bomb, you can agree or disagree, no matter, it's a fact !
Valence Saphion use other electrode material (loosing few lithium
technologie advantage in the operation) to make their cell Safer, why ?
because this way (not enough cobalt) they can't produce lithium metal to
react with O2.
Writing "Safe lithium" is like "Black Sun", an oxymoron, though Valence
write it Saphion so it's ok ;^)
Valence is too expensive for the moment so we will test Kokam soon, safety
is top of check list to find secure solutions, nobody wants to have is house
fired by his EV...talking about better case here.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:50 PM
Subject: Lithium safety (Re: Having second...
> Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > Victor, i talk few days ago (at EVS21) to a French lithium batteries
> > specialist who visit an independant battery testing near TS company, he
said
> > the test room was still full of what you call "benign" results about
> > identified TS exploded and flamed cells parts.
>
> Was that french specialist a SAFT employee by chance?
>
> > The ONLY safe technologie is Valence Saphion and other brand i don't
recall
> > anymore the name BUT certainly not TS or SAFT or all other brands based
on
> > cobalt, manganese...
> >
> > Philippe
>
> Not to defend TS (ANY company has own problems, SAFT and Saphion
> included), but I'd like to see objective data before commenting.
>
> When he subjects Valence cells to exactly the same abuse tests
> as TS ones, we will talk about results.
>
> Valence is typical in screaming PR "we're the only company
> making safe battery". THey have NO way of knowing who else
> might come up with just as safe solution, which will invalidate
> their propaganda, but who cares. People is trained not to believe
> any of these statements anyway, smart ones need PROOF.
>
> Valence can proof that their cellsare safe by showing its video,
> but no way they can proof than ANY other company's product
> but theirs is unsafe. Yet, they imply it and you seem to
> have been bought into it.
>
> Kokam will tell you exactly the same - I personally talked to
> their CEO during out meeting in LA. He said with straight face to me
> Our batery is safe, safest you can find. I told him: well might be, but
> others claim the same thing. He replied "I don't care about others,
> I know my battery is safe".
>
> Take it at face value (you know what this means, don't you?)
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(EDTA wants tax credit$, fleet flexibility, Robust fed
inve$tment$)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Subject: EDTA President Comments on National Energy Policy
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:58:22 -0400
Contact: Jennifer Watts
Phone: 202-048-0774
EDTA Calls for Electric Drive Support in Energy Bill
Washington, DC�April 20, 2005�The Electric Drive Transportation
Association (EDTA) calls upon Congress to pass comprehensive
energy legislation that includes meaningful incentives for
battery, hybrid and fuel cell electric drive vehicles and
infrastructure. EDTA is the trade association representing the
electric drive industry, including automakers, utilities,
technology suppliers and government agencies.
Electric drive is a proven solution for three critical issues
that America faces,� says EDTA President Brian Wynne. �The
widespread use of electric drive in the transportation sector
will decrease our dependence on foreign oil, reduce pollution,
and decrease greenhouse gas emissions.�
EDTA advocates the promotion of electric drive through the
inclusion of the following three provisions in comprehensive
energy legislation:
* Consumer-based tax credits for the purchase of electric and
hybrid electric vehicles;
* Flexibility in federal fleet purchase requirements to include
low speed electric and hybrid electric vehicles; and,
* Robust federal investment in hydrogen and fuel cell electric
vehicles.
America�s oil-dominant path in the transportation sector is not
sustainable,� says Wynne. �Our national energy policy should
include provisions that will accelerate the use of electric drive
vehicles by consumers and fleets, hasten progress toward the
adoption of fuel cell technology, and ultimately, make
sustainable mobility a reality in the United States.�
Energy and Transportation Facts:
* Every $10 increase in a barrel of oil equals a .5 to 1% loss in
Gross Domestic Product.
* By the year 2020, estimates project that the U.S.
transportation sector will consume twice as much petroleum as
the U.S. produces.
* A one-cent increase in the price of a gallon of gas represents
$1.3 billion more in costs to consumers.
* Although hybrids are up to 40% more fuel efficient than a
traditional vehicle, they are not eligible for the credit
requirements under the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (EPAct), which
requires that state and federal government fleets convert an
increasing percentage of fleets to alternative fuel vehicles;
thus, compliance with EPAct is increasingly difficult for fleet
managers.
Electric Drive Facts:
* Hybrid vehicles achieve up to 40% better fuel economy than
traditional vehicles, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions by up
to 50%.
* Sales of hybrid electric vehicles are estimated to reach
200,000 in 2005, accounting for just over 1% of the entire
automotive market in the United States.
* By 2006, 17 hybrid electric models will be available to
consumers and fleet owners.
* Battery electric vehicles produce no tailpipe emissions.
Media Availability Notice:
Brian Wynne, President of the Electric Drive Transportation
Association (EDTA), is available to address media questions
regarding the status of the energy bill in the Congress. To set
up an interview, call EDTA at 202-408-0774.
About EDTA:
EDTA is the preeminent industry association dedicated to
advancing electric drive as a core technology on the road to
sustainable mobility. Our membership includes a diverse
representation of vehicle and equipment manufacturers, energy
providers, component suppliers and end users. As an advocate for
the adoption of electric drive technologies, EDTA serves as the
unified voice for the industry and is the primary source of
information and education related to electric drive.
##
Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA)
1350 I Street, NW
Suite 1050
Washington, DC 20005
202-408-0774
www.electricdrive.org
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was it someone on this list that was looking at independant rear suspension
systems, and asked for some pictures of the Thunderbird unit? Sorry to be off
topic here.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All Mopar fans,
I've mentioned this to the list before, but it was a couple of whiles ago!
I still have my first car, a 1965 Dodge Coronet that originally had a tired
383 high performance engine (dual point distributor etc.), so I put 440
cubic inches of gas guzzling Detroit steel in it, from a 1966 Monaco. This
beast has been sitting in the barn for a number of years, like since I got
into EV's. I mentioned converting it to the list way back when, and the
"reality check" response was similar to the Madman's. It's just too portly
and inefficient, unless you want to do some serious vehicle dieting, along
with multiple motors, but you would still have a very very short range
buggy! Actually, with some 50 amp outlets (charge stations) strategically
placed, and a PFC-50, the Madman should be encouraging these Detroit pigs
for EV conversions!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:12:33 -0700
>
>Mr. Khaos..
>
>for one thing on this list we mostly go by our REAL names....
>
>And I like you love the old Mopars. But.. they are Really old really rusted
>and really heavy compared to the Econ boxes that most if us run.
>And there are reasons for that.
> Weight and front drive trannys are the most eff drive train that we
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
hi Victor :^)
Hi Philippe, pity I had no chance to meet you at EVS21...
Writing "Safe lithium" is like "Black Sun", an oxymoron, though Valence
write it Saphion so it's ok ;^)
Valence is too expensive for the moment so we will test Kokam soon, safety
is top of check list to find secure solutions, nobody wants to have is house
fired by his EV...talking about better case here.
Philippe
My only point was what Valence did is in principle new (cells
starving for oxygen thus preventing bad reaction), but this doesn't mean
others can't come up with similar or better solutions, and may be they
have - just we and Valence are not aware of it.
In general saying we're the best in the world is meaningless
since no one knbows what else out there being done or has been done.
And while promoting own product is good, promoting it by
trashing competitor's product or using scare tactics is not.
Did you notice Valence asking in the movie "Is YOUR LiIon battery safe?"
The answer is may be, but they want you to believe ONLY their
product is safe. Who else's cells this french man tested?
I believe among handful of manufacturers Valence was the best.
But there are many more out there. When you confront them
with this, they'd say "we don't care", but this proves nothing.
Fortu's cells may well be safer ones, no one just had chance to
try them. How Valence then can claim what they claim?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
I am oh-so-ready to start EV grinning...and I do have that grin...but I
have been unable to get the throttle ramping set on the T-Rex 1000 in my
new-to-me Porsche.
I wasn't able to get the yellow LED to light no matter what we did, and
I can't seem to get it set so that I can leave a stop as fast as a 36
volt golf cart...
This is running at a nominal 204 volts with Yellow tops (17 batteries on
its way to 20) and the 1K t-Rex which moved the BMW (which was a much
heavier EV) nicely at 192 volts.
Anybody had experience with this?
Thanks-
MIchael B.
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if it won't attack the insulation, but I've seen vinyl
spray paint that's supposed to remain flexible after dry, solving the
chipping off problem...
On Apr 18, 2005, at 9:11 PM, jimevdl wrote:
Not sure about the rubber insulation on welding cable, but I tried
painting some waterproof flexible conduit (the gray plastic stuff from
Home Depot). The orange paint didn't come out very bright, and after
several hours of "drying", the paint attacked the plastic, and made a
sticky mess. Even if the color was correct, the tackiness would
attract dirt to the point where it would be dirt colored in no time.
Spray paints have some nasty solvents, that I wouldn't want around my
HV cable insulation. Also, if it did cure properly, any amount of flex
would probably chip the paint right off.
A guy at the Texas Plug In mentioned he knew where to buy orange loom.
I'll give him a call and post the source when I find out.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Apr 18, 2005 5:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Wire Gauge questions
Rush wrote:
http://store.solar-electric.com/wc--2-0.html
They don't have it, tried to order it and the don't know when they
will get it again. Nobody has orange or even knows where to get it.
Someone mentioned spray painting the wire... is that an option which
would allow us to get quality welding cable and in the color orange?
Would spray painting the wire have any negative effects on the
insulation?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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