EV Digest 4396
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Starting Shunt Motor (was Re: series wound rpm)
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What conversion kits would you be interested in? (long)
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) A few reasons to 'play' with battery stick welding.
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Welding angle-iron battery racks, was Re: FW: Is this Welding
idea...
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bob Lazar Hydrogen conversion kit
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A few reasons to 'play' with battery stick welding.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Starting Shunt Motor (was Re: series wound rpm)
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Battery breakthrough threatens fuel cells?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: series wound rpm
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT : Veggy oil (Forgetaboutit!)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dragsters at Power of DC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: EV on eBay
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Is this motor similar to what is going in purple haze?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Who has some EV videos?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Starting Shunt Motor (was Re: series wound rpm)
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What conversion kits would you be interested in? (long)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) I remember a teenage "arc" experiment - welding question
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I remember a teenage "arc" experiment - welding question
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by Larry Skidmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Is this motor similar to what is going in purple haze?
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: What conversion kits would you be interested in? (long)
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: series wound rpm
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Is this motor similar to what is going in purple haze?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: I remember a teenage "arc" experiment - welding question
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Motor tips in reponse to James Massey
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Cable Crimping
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: series wound rpm
The shunt wound motor can be started and run with just a contactor with no
fear of overspeeding as a series wound motor behaves.
You are correct, this is the same property as a Permanent Magnet motor.
A dc motor except for smaller sizes and lower voltage units needs something
to limit and control its starting current. This is true whether it's shunt
wound,
series wound or has a permanent magnet field. The motor will draw excessive
current until it gets up to speed and produces enough counter emf to limit
the
current. Excessive starting current can cause serious commutator arcing, a
tripped circuit breaker or blown fuse, an uncontrolled surge of starting
torque, great balls of fire and awed spectators.
Small, low voltage motors like accessory drive motors in an automobile get
by without any device to limit starting current because the supply voltage
is low
and there's enough winding resistance to keep the starting current down.
Some EV drag racers use just a contactor to start their motor and depend on
the
resistance of the batteries, cables and motor to keep things together
long enough to do a racing run.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear David
One of the reasons I was suggesting the wheel motor
idea is because... if you made a wheel motor to fit
say a chevy bolt pattern, it would fit any chevy
car... they used the same bolt pattern for the last 70
years... (probably longer) (except some trucks are
different)
This would allow you to have a motor, controller and
charger kit that would fit almost any chevy car from
the 50's to today. Wouldn't that be great! only
difference you'd have to plan for is the size of the
motor and battery racks and controller mounting
location!
I could see making a reasonable sized wheel motor(four
of them would replace the ice engine on most cars) and
supplying that with an option for a larger motor for
the performance enthusasts and larger vehicles. let
the car provide the brakes and allow for slight
changes to the mounting hardware(adapter plates). The
person that does this will have the market cornered!
Your conversion base would then be by manufacturer
rather than by model... that would take the pressure
off you!(toyota, vw nissan, ford, chevy, bmw ect.)
Tom
-----snip-----
I think you'll have trouble finding a single platform
that will please a large number of people.
The ideal might be to develop a kit that had several
components that would work for a few to several
gliders (probably all from one mfgr). One might
design a single adaptor that would work with several
years and lines of cars, a few different battery racks
or boxes each of which would fit 2 or 3 cars, then
have a variety of other parts to suit as needed.
Regrettably this would require a daunting financial
commitment to test all the possible combinations, and
it's tough to see it as justified by the potential
level of sales. I think that the Voltsrabbit kits
broke even eventually, but it took years IIRC (correct
me if I'm wrong about this), and that was for only one
(very common) car. Designing a kit of the sort I'm
advocating would probably not be fundable by an
investor. It would have to be a labor of love,
perhaps supported by a philanthropic source - private
or
public - which was willing to provide an out and out
grant for the development.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having read about the 'Ford' welder and about the fellow who used a long
length of #10 or #12 solid wire on a sheet of plywood as a variable current
source/inductor, I thought, "What a good idea for EV learning".
You get to 'play' with a few batteries. Learn about charging them,
measuring them, etc.
You learn about what currents can do to heat a wire and how sensitive the
length of wire is to current.
You can use the wire itself as a shunt to read current and learn about
current measurement.
For just a few bucks you can buy a few welding sticks and a cheap helmet and
learn a bit about welding, perhaps enough to weld your battery boxes, and
certainly enough to be able to make an informed choice about welders,
helmets, etc.
Cheaper than any course and a 'hands on' learning experience.
Good idea for us graybeards?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had posted this Thursday and it bounced. I thought maybe Roden had kicked
me off, but I'm still receiving posts, so I'll try it again!
All,
Speaking of angle-iron, I remember welding the outside of both the
horizontal and vertical sides of all four corners, and then welding just
the inside of the horizontal piece (but not up to the corner), and grinding
that inside weld smooth. As Mark mentioned, you can't get a 4 1/2 inch
grinding wheel into the corners and the poly box needs to sit flat, so I
did as little welding on the inside as possible. BTW, I'm still using an
old DC buzz box, but would like a wire-feed welder when I grow up. As
progressive rednecks, our family spends too much money on organic "refried
beansprouts" and "granola crunching" type food (and yes, even red meat).
It's not easy being a rootin-tootin-nonpollutin "earth muffin"!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:17:35 -0500
>From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
<snippage>
>You can use flux core for everything, it does weld thicker and you don't
>have to deal with the bottle or the risk of running out of gas on a
>Saturday after the weld supply store has closed. (Flux core wire is
>available at the Home Depot and Lowe's in the more common sizes) The
>flux core wire sends splatters all around the weld area so you metal has
>a sandpaper appearance after welding. It takes a little grinding to
>clean this up which can be tough on inner corners of angle iron battery
>racks but no one ever sees those areas. Most light duty "MIG" welders
>come from the factory setup for flux core. Go ahead and experiment with
>the flux core first, and decide for yourself if the welds look "good
>enough" before buying the Inert Gas kit for your welder.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here�s my question: electricity flows on the outside of the >material, and
so doesn�t cable with a lot of smaller wires create >a larger flow capacity
than a solid of the same size?
Thanks to all
Jim Husted
Hi Jim
Welcome to the EVDL. I am already certain that you will be a greatly valued
addition to this list :^D
I believe your question is answered here-
http://amasci.com/elect/elefaq1.html#al
As are the answers to many other questions concerning electricity which I
believe is of great value to newbies and grizzled veterans alike-
http://amasci.com/ele-edu.html
Which is just a part of a much larger site-
http://amasci.com
Did Plasma Boy tell you how he got his nickname? :^D
HTH!
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Waddell wrote:
> Has anyone seen any contact information for Bob Lazar in new Mexico?
Yes. This is his website and the business he runs(and maybe his wife too):
http://www.unitednuclear.com/
You can meet him and spend the day with him for $75:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/joinus.htm
His hydrogen kit:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm
Address and phone number:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/customer.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I actually have an Elec-trak welder on the way to my house. It's a stick
welder; 36 volt system that seems to use resistor straps-n-taps to
control the arc. I've seen the kind of arc I can draw just from the
solar panel array (36 volt; 360 watt). Should be interesting to see what
the EV one can do.
Chris
Having read about the 'Ford' welder and about the fellow who used a long
length of #10 or #12 solid wire on a sheet of plywood as a variable current
source/inductor, I thought, "What a good idea for EV learning".
You get to 'play' with a few batteries. Learn about charging them,
measuring them, etc.
You learn about what currents can do to heat a wire and how sensitive the
length of wire is to current.
You can use the wire itself as a shunt to read current and learn about
current measurement.
For just a few bucks you can buy a few welding sticks and a cheap helmet and
learn a bit about welding, perhaps enough to weld your battery boxes, and
certainly enough to be able to make an informed choice about welders,
helmets, etc.
Cheaper than any course and a 'hands on' learning experience.
Good idea for us graybeards?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting, my other Zamboni has a shunt that just uses a contactor, 80
volts about 150 amps, I have used it this way for a couple of years, should
I be concerned, is there a visual sign that I may look for to see wether
this is too hard on the comm?
> > The shunt wound motor can be started and run with just a contactor with
no
> > fear of overspeeding as a series wound motor behaves.
> >
> > You are correct, this is the same property as a Permanent Magnet motor.
>
> A dc motor except for smaller sizes and lower voltage units needs
something
> to limit and control its starting current. This is true whether it's
shunt
> wound,
> series wound or has a permanent magnet field. The motor will draw
excessive
> current until it gets up to speed and produces enough counter emf to limit
> the
> current. Excessive starting current can cause serious commutator arcing,
a
> tripped circuit breaker or blown fuse, an uncontrolled surge of starting
> torque, great balls of fire and awed spectators.
>
> Small, low voltage motors like accessory drive motors in an automobile get
> by without any device to limit starting current because the supply voltage
> is low
> and there's enough winding resistance to keep the starting current down.
>
> Some EV drag racers use just a contactor to start their motor and depend
on
> the
> resistance of the batteries, cables and motor to keep things together
> long enough to do a racing run.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Dekker wrote:
> If Toshiba's new Lithium-ion battery lives up to promises,
> it poses an interesting question of where we'd like to go
> with battery technology: Do we want micro fuel cells that
> last longer or better batteries that charge more quickly?
> In other words, do we really need to go the route of
> direct-methanol fuel cells if it only takes 60 seconds to
> charge that mobile phone or MP3 player?
>
>
http://tylerhamilton.blogspot.com/2005/03/battery-breakthrough-threatens-micro.h\
tml
>
> Wouldn't this also apply to Fuel cell vehicles?
You had better believe it...
Let's examine the difference between the "old" and new Toshiba
Li-ion cells. The old cells were capable of 4C rates and 500
cycles or so, While these specs are good enough to use in an
EV as demonstrated by ACP's T-Zero, they were just barely
up to the task. At 500 cycles we might expect to get about
150,000 miles of life from such a pack, not bad but not great.
Now let's consider what the Toshiba cells can do, they are
capable of 50C rate charge and discharges and go 1000 cycles
per 1% capacity loss, or 20,000 cycles to the same 80% mark.
So where a 300 mile pack was required to get enough power
density for a sports car, now a 24 mile mile pack can deliver
the same levels of power! Making them perfect for PHEV
applications. With a 300 mile 20K cycle pack we can expect
it to last 6,000,000 miles, some 40 times longer than the
old technology. Even with the minimal 24 mile pack at full
utilization (100% DOD) it would last 480,000 miles!
What about cost though? I would expect the cost of batteries
to fall as production climbs, but let's ignore that for the
moment and just stick with the $500/kWh figure of current
high production Laptop Lithiums. A 300 mile pack is about
50kWh and would cost some $25K which isn't really as
expensive as it sounds at 6 million miles of use, $0.004/mile.
Still this seems to steep for most people, so perhaps a
PHEV-20, 40 or 80 would be more acceptable for the masses.
20 miles requires less than 4kWh or a mear $2000, double
that for 40 miles and again for 80 miles. Drivers should
choose the size that would best fit their daily commute.
I might go for the $8000, 80 mile battery which will last
me 1.6 million miles and eliminate the first 80 miles
worth of gassoline per trip. In an Insight that's about
1 gallon of gas per day/commute, every day for 56 years!
Roughly 20K gallons for an $8000 investment, $0.40/gallon.
Of course you still have to add electricity, the actual
fuel. I pay $0.06 per kWh for HydroElectric and the 20 mile
pack stores 4kWh ($0.24), the 80 mile pack, 16kWh ($0.96).
So my fuel cost would be about $0.012, plus the battery
cost of $0.004 for a grand total of arround $0.016/mile!
So, In my opinion Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles are even more
of a waste of effort when currently available battery tech
is available which is quite clearly far superiour! Consider
for a moment the Charge/Discharge effeciency of the two
technologies, Li batteries 90+% in/90+% out, where as Fuel
Cells are near 50% in/ 50% out. It's just not fair. Oh,
and these Li-ion cells retains 80% capacity at -40deg C.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Many "series" forklift motors actually have a small shunt field as well.
> This field is powered all the time, and serves to limit the maximum
> speed (so a forklift rolling down a ramp won't overspeed). If you were
> able to apply 72v to a 36v motor at no load and it didn't overspeed,
> then it isn't a pure series motor; it has a shunt field.
Thanks Lee, there are two small wires coming out of the motor however I do
not have them hooked up, on an ohm meter they read zero so I am thinking
they may be a heat sensor, on the side of the motor is a cover that shows
what looks like a sensor with similiar wires so I think they are rerouted
out with the larger wires.
On the series runaway with the motor connected to the sundstund hydrostatic
transmission, there is a load all the time with the turning of the trans and
piggybacked hydraulic pump. I am thinking that the load is enough because of
the high current draw(175 amps) with the motor running and all controls in
neutral. When the machine is moving the draw goes up and the rpm goes down.
If this motor is strictly series (which is what the tag says) would a higher
hp series motor act in a similiar manner as the 4.6 hp motor? If not what
would I look for in a larger motor in rpm values?
Thanks
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
As someone who has been considering a (bio-)diesel generator to replace my
propane range extender (although I can't imagine it being cleaner), I think
this thread was VERY informative and on topic. Neon John even made a
contribution without calling anyone names!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:39:20 +1000
>To: [email protected]
>From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: OT : Veggy oil (Forgetaboutit!)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>At 07:00 PM 24/05/05 -0700, Tom Shay wrote:
>
>>I think we should continue to focus on electric vehicles.
>
>
>Well said. Please, people, this is an ELECTRIC vehicle discussion list, the
>veggy oil discusion has gone on about long enough. It has been interesting,
>but if it was a hybrid/EV discussion it would be relevant.
>
>I have things I could say, as a friend has 60,000 kilometers on refined
>recycled cooking oil, but I won't as it is not pertinant to the EV discussion.
>
>
>James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 5/29/2005 10:14:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Speaking of dragsters, I believe Jim Ludiker is still selling his.
Yes Chip, still up for grabs, the correct address is
_http://www.ghiamonster.com/ludiker/dragster.html_
(http://www.ghiamonster.com/ludiker/dragster.html)
Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded from private message from Justin Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
At 03:16 PM 5/29/2005, you wrote:
Hey guys...
Hope you are well. Sorry I don't have the ability to participate in the EV
List anymore. I'm hopeful that I'll be able to get something soon.
Was scanning eBay today, and found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4552239725&fromMakeTrack=true
Looks like a perfect condition properly stored and maintained '81 Escort EVA
conversion.
I figured I'd let you guys know since I can't subscribe to the list just now
for a single post. Could you spread the word? I'm sure someone out there
would be thrilled to find that this car is available.
And while I've got ya. Do you guys keep any blogs or update any websites with
your recent escapades?
Bill, I check up on killacycle.com often, and I'm thrilled to show my friends
such a quick bike when they either scoff at the idea of electric motorcycles,
or when they scoff in general about speedy bikes.
Dennis, I'm sad to see that CurrentEliminator.com is gone. Every now and
again
I am able google something, but doesn't seem like much has changed. Are you
still running that car?
John, So much stuff turns up on google for you. It's hard to sort the old
from the new.
Hope you are all in good health, here's to the future.
cheers,
j
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ebay item # 4551724091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a place to upload them to so we can all see them:
http://www.filecabi.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Starting Shunt Motor (was Re: series wound rpm)
Interesting, my other Zamboni has a shunt that just uses a contactor, 80
volts about 150 amps, I have used it this way for a couple of years,
should
I be concerned, is there a visual sign that I may look for to see wether
this is too hard on the comm?
No doubt, serious sparking at the brushes and commutator occurs when the
motor starts. If there is very little inertial load on the motor, it might
come
up to speed fast enough to minimize damage. If you can watch the brushes
and commutator while the motor starts in a darkened room, you will see
sparking.
It would be prudent to inspect the brushes and commutator for arcing
damage. I hope your brushes and commutator are easily accessible for
inspection and repair.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> Electricity flows on the outside of the material, and so doesn�t
> cable with a lot of smaller wires create a larger flow capacity
> than a solid of the same size?
DC (Direct Current) flows uniformly throughout the cross-section of a
conductor, so it doesn't matter if the wire is solid or stranded.
AC (Alternating Current) preferentially flows on the surface of
conductors. This is called the "skin effect". The higher the frequency
of the AC, the shallower the current penetrates. The skin effect is
about 1/2" deep at 60 Hz, and so can be ignored in solid conductors up
to 1" thick. Skin effect really only becomes important for high
frequency AC, 1 MHz and up.
If the individual strands of stranded wire are bare and touch each
other, then they behave just like a solid wire of the same
cross-sectional area. To reduce the skin effect, the individual strands
must be *insulated* from each other. Litz wire is an example of wire
where this is done.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Watson wrote:
> One of the reasons I was suggesting the wheel motor
> idea is because... if you made a wheel motor to fit
> say a chevy bolt pattern, it would fit any chevy
> car... they used the same bolt pattern for the last 70
> years... (probably longer) (except some trucks are
> different)
>
> This would allow you to have a motor, controller and
> charger kit that would fit almost any chevy car from
> the 50's to today. Wouldn't that be great! only
> difference you'd have to plan for is the size of the
> motor and battery racks and controller mounting
> location!
Electric wheel motors are a great idea that has not panned out well in
practice. The compromises you need to make to the design to fit it into
a wheel throw away most of the benefits they were supposed to provide.
Now, there *is* one kind of wheel motor that has turned out to be
practical -- hydraulic wheel motors are widely used in all sorts of
industrial, mining, and earthmoving equipment. It would be possible to
design a hydraulic wheel motor, install them in place of the normal
driven wheels of an ICE, and run them all from a central hydraulic pump
driven by an electric motor. Hydraulic lines are easier to route than
drive shafts.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I was about 14 I had a friend that did the following arc experiment:
He wired a light bulb in series of one leg of a 110 VAC line wire and
connected it to a piece of steel.
The other wire end was wrapped around a short length of graphite lead from a
pencil.
Using an insulator grip, if he touched the graphite to the steel, the 110
VAC went through the bulb and it lit.
If he backed the graphite off the steel, it struck an arc.
The bulb acted as a ballast. A really simple experiment.
If I wanted to do the same for stick welding with 12 VDC or 24VDC from
batteries, what ballast should be used to limit the current to approximately
100 Amps? Would one need a 'resistor' capable of dissipating 24 x 100 =
2400 watts if the arc shorted? What commonly available materials may be
used?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:43 PM 29/05/05 -0400, BoyntonStu wrote:
When I was about 14 I had a friend that did the following arc experiment:
<snip>
If I wanted to do the same for stick welding with 12 VDC or 24VDC from
batteries, what ballast should be used to limit the current to approximately
100 Amps? Would one need a 'resistor' capable of dissipating 24 x 100 =
2400 watts if the arc shorted?
What commonly available materials may be used?
Welding electrodes!
However, there is a reason that stick welders commonly use in the range of
50 to 70 volts open circuit, and if you try stick welding directly off 12V
you'll soon work out why. 24V you may get enough, but probably not. My
father used to go travelling the Australian outback and always had three
batteries on board, in order to do stick welding - series up the bateries
for 36V, clip in an electrode and weld away.
Hope this datapoint helps.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Finer stranding does suggest better usage (higher percent of copper) for a
given diameter. Know that you have to mix sizes of ball bearings (or sand,
rock and gravel) to most effectively "fill" a bucket. By analogy, wouldn't a
cable with multiple sizes of strands present more copper per cross section?
Also, from back when dirt was young and I was a bench tech., I remember a very
high strand count cable which was mad amazingly flexible by carefully laying
each layer of stranding in opposite "hands" (clockwise over couter-clockwise)
at about 45 degrees of twist. Fascinatingly flacid.
Would there be any benefit to graphite or silver dust among the strands?
Finally, some copper applications tout "oxygen free" copper; what are
benefits...higher conductivity.
How good could power cable be? Worth any effort? I know a really clever cable
manufacturer in Taiwan who starts by drawing copper to spec. Hmmm!
Larry Skidmore
Retired from and returning to Portland, OR
Puebla, Mexico for now
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim Husted wrote:
> Electricity flows on the outside of the material, and so doesn�t
> cable with a lot of smaller wires create a larger flow capacity
> than a solid of the same size?
DC (Direct Current) flows uniformly throughout the cross-section of a
conductor, so it doesn't matter if the wire is solid or stranded.
AC (Alternating Current) preferentially flows on the surface of
conductors. This is called the "skin effect". The higher the frequency
of the AC, the shallower the current penetrates. The skin effect is
about 1/2" deep at 60 Hz, and so can be ignored in solid conductors up
to 1" thick. Skin effect really only becomes important for high
frequency AC, 1 MHz and up.
If the individual strands of stranded wire are bare and touch each
other, then they behave just like a solid wire of the same
cross-sectional area. To reduce the skin effect, the individual strands
must be *insulated* from each other. Litz wire is an example of wire
where this is done.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ebay item # 4551724091
Actually that's a big GE. The GE number is the # listed 5BT1374A15.
It's longer than the Haze's but the Allis Chalmers is inter-poled and
has larger fields in both mass and turns than this motor as John's
tested at 950 RPM at 12 volt and drew 23 amp's, with brushes set to
nuetral. This motor sports 4 field terminals and a 12-brush ring
assembly, which is a nice set up. This would be a fun motor to play
with and about as large as I can fit into my sand blast cabinet
without a mallet, lol. The price isn't bad but remember to factor a
pretty penny in freight, depending on your location. Maybe I should
place a bid on this, Drexlers are a bit rare these days thanks,
hehehe. Hope that answers your question
Cya Jim
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--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tom Watson wrote:
> > One of the reasons I was suggesting the wheel
> motor
> > idea is because... if you made a wheel motor to
> fit
> > say a chevy bolt pattern, it would fit any chevy
> > car... they used the same bolt pattern for the
> last 70
> > years... (probably longer) (except some trucks are
> > different)
> >
> > This would allow you to have a motor, controller
> and
> > charger kit that would fit almost any chevy car
> from
> > the 50's to today. Wouldn't that be great!
yes it would be great: except for the fact that
wheel motors have stationary hubs and just bolting on
a motor would not work without locking the drive train
up so the electric motor would have something to work
against.
maybe we could lock all the brakes and use regen to
stop the vehicle... would this be as a hybrid add on
or replace the ICE all together
> > difference you'd have to plan for is the size of
> the
> > motor and battery racks and controller mounting
> > location!
>
> Electric wheel motors are a great idea that has not
> panned out well in
> practice. The compromises you need to make to the
> design to fit it into
> a wheel throw away most of the benefits they were
> supposed to provide.
>
> Now, there *is* one kind of wheel motor that has
> turned out to be
> practical -- hydraulic wheel motors are widely used
> in all sorts of
> industrial, mining, and earthmoving equipment. It
> would be possible to
> design a hydraulic wheel motor, install them in
> place of the normal
> driven wheels of an ICE, and run them all from a
> central hydraulic pump
> driven by an electric motor.
what about losses and effeciency of hydraulics??
Hydraulic lines are
> easier to route than
> drive shafts.
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> If this motor is strictly series (which is what the tag says) would
a higher
> hp series motor act in a similiar manner as the 4.6 hp motor? If not
what
> would I look for in a larger motor in rpm values?
> Thanks
> Ellery
The size of the motor is not relivent. The size of the wire and the
amount of turns per pole is whats going to dictate RPM's You can take
and wind a coil using half the wire size but with twice the turns to
reduce a motors speed and amp's using the same armature. I don't
think advance makes shunts for an 8" motor but I'll call and ask
advance if they make any shunted 8" motors and what costs would be for
a set of coils and e-mail you info
Hope this helps Jim
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hi_torque_electric wrote:
> John's tested at 950 RPM at 12 volt and drew 23 amp's
What's the highest rpm that motor can handle and still stay together?
What's the weak link when talking about these motors and rpm?
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Larry Skidmore wrote:
> I remember a very high strand count cable which was mad amazingly flexible by
> carefully laying each layer of stranding in opposite "hands" (clockwise over
> couterclockwise) at about 45 degrees of twist. Fascinatingly flaccid.
Reading your post, I couldn't help but think of that "wet noodle" wire
used with RC cars:
"12 Gauge silicone wire with an unbelievable 1660 strands, it is so
flexible that it feels like a wet noodle! The highest grade of copper
and pure silicone insulation"
http://www.wsdeans.com/products/wire/index.html
The battery jig on that page is neat too.
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Would one need a 'resistor' capable of dissipating 24 x 100 =
>2400 watts if the arc shorted?
>What commonly available materials may be used?
Welding electrodes!
If a 3/16 Welding stick touches the steel, what current will flow short
circuit at 36 VDC?
However, there is a reason that stick welders commonly use in the range of
50 to 70 volts open circuit, and if you try stick welding directly off 12V
you'll soon work out why. 24V you may get enough, but probably not. My
father used to go travelling the Australian outback and always had three
batteries on board, in order to do stick welding - series up the bateries
for 36V, clip in an electrode and weld away.
Hope this datapoint helps.
James
Sure does. OK on more than 12 VDC.
Stu
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Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > Electricity flows on the outside of the material, and so doesn�t
> > cable with a lot of smaller wires create a larger flow capacity
> > than a solid of the same size?
>
> DC (Direct Current) flows uniformly throughout the cross-section of a
> conductor, so it doesn't matter if the wire is solid or stranded.
>
Actually, it does. If the individual wires of a stranded wire are not square
wire that can
butt tightly against each other, thus mimicking a solid conductor, and they are
instead,
round (as is the majority of stranded type wire), then all those round wires
next to each
other create lots of non-conducting air passages between themselves...this
reduces the
amount of conducting material in a given gauge size. Two 8 gauge wires, one a
solid type
and the other multistranded, the solid one has more material and passes more DC
current
with less resistance.
Granted, a conductor with thousands of very fine strands comes close to a solid
conductor,
and in most instances, flexible fine stranded wire is the preferred choice
because it's
easier to work with and resists breakage from movement, but it still never gets
to the
same level as the identical diameter solid wire. Another way to look at it, is
this....take two 8 gauge conductors, one a solid type, the other stranded. If
you tightly
squeeze the solid one, it still stays the same diameter, but, if you tightly
squeeze the
stranded one deforming the round strands and mashing them closer together as
you eliminate
the air spaces, the overall diameter comes in at less than 8 gauge....now you
have two
different gauge of wire and they do not conduct the same.
Larry Skidmore wrote:
>Finer stranding does suggest better usage (higher percent of copper) for a
>given
diameter.
Correct. It really becomes apparent if you draw three identical circles on
white paper.
Fill one of them with say, 5 circles and solidly pencil in each of the 5
circles, then
look at all the white paper that represents air space between them. Now, fill
the 2nd
circle with 20 smaller circles and solidly pencil in each of the 20 circles,
then look at
the lesser amount of white paper that represents air space between them. This
is like
comparing a cheaper, not-so-flexible wire with very few strands, to a higher
quality, more
flexible multistranded cable and it's easy to see there is more conductor
material in one,
than the other. Now, solidly pencil in the entire third identical sized
circle...see any
white paper? This represents the solid conductor wire.
If Jim is still reading and following this thread, he should now understand why
I want
beefy buss bar on the outside of my Siamese 8 motor connecting the filed to the
brush
terminal on each motor segment. The studs don't move, so no flexibility is
needed, and
thick flat copper bars hug the motor diameter better than does bulky round
cable, plus,
there's no cable ends to deal with where reistance paths can creep in...you
just drill
holes in the bar and bolt it on.
See Ya...John Wayland
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On 21 May 2005 at 20:27, Tony McCormick wrote:
> a hammer
> crimper has been ordered and I'll use the suggestions and my vise to drive
> it.
Go for it. Hammer crimpers seem to have something of a bad name - though as
well as I can recall, this list is the only place where I've heard negative
comments about them.
When I first started doing EVs back in the late 1980s, I used to shove the
wire in the lug, put the assembly on the garage floor, and whack it HARD
with a large hammer. Then I soldered the bloody thing, using a propane
torch (trying to keep solder from wicking up into the wire too much), and
added a piece of heatshrink.
BTW, some of those lugs were commercial ones. Others were just lengths of
copper tubing. I'd stick the wire in halfway and smash them flat, solder,
then drill the part without the wire for the stud. Darn right they were
crude!
But none of these lugs ever failed or caused problems, not even the homemade
ones. In fact the one failure I had was a ^factory^ crimp on my Comuta-car -
one of the motor connections, which take a lot of flexing on C-cars.
However, in fairness I should say that my controllers in those days had
current limits of 350 to 400 amps, so the lugs and cables were not as
severely stressed as some of yours.
Now I have a hammer crimper. Same deal, put it on the floor and beat it
mercilessly with a big hammer, except that I don't feel the need to solder
any more. None of THESE crimps has failed either.
A hex crimper has the advantage that you can often crimp under the hood or
under the car on a creeper or (maybe) inside the back hatch. This is nice.
(At least I guess it would be, as I've never owned one.) It is also
probably preferable if you are building a high-powered EV and expect to draw
upwards of 1000 amps on a regular basis.
But the hammer crimper is the way to go for feeble weenies like me who have
lousy upper-body strength. And if you aren't shy about wielding the hammer -
and use a big one - you will get good crimps with a hammer crimper. They
may not be ideal for a drag racer, but they're quite adequate for the
average commuter EV.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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