EV Digest 4415
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Argggggggg. Another Wrecked electric vehicleNow clean cal vehicles.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Matching 2 motor set ups, was Re: Siamese Motors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Siamese Motors
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NAPA Battery Acid Filler (for watering)
by Phil Sobolik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Power of DC Lodging
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Spring broke inside EVT controller
by "Rodriguez, Jennifer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Pressing armature shafts
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Power of DC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BadFishRacing)
15) RE: Matching 2 motor set ups, was Re: Siamese Motors
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Selling scooters, Cal Law change
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Current measurement, was: Re: Another e-meter question
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What conversion kits would you be interested in? (long)
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Power of DC, Another One!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) PT Cruiser conversion kit
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: What conversion kits would you be interested in? (long)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: PT Cruiser conversion kit
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Matching 2 motor set ups, was Re: Siamese Motors
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Siamese Motors
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Siamese Motors
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Pressing armature shafts
by "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The motor reverses only if you reverse the polarity of the current through
the field windings relative to the current through the armature. Flip one,
not both.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has just got to be cheaper to send clean bodied gliders from California
than to do the body work on rusting vehicles. It's a losing battle. I'll
ship bodies to anyone back east if you grease my palm. Fifty bucks an hour.
Buy the vehicle and pay for shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Argggggggg. Another Wrecked electric vehicle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Argggggggg. Another Wrecked electric vehicle
I think we are mixing our wrecks.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/WreckElectravan/DSC00033.JPG This is not an
electrathon vehicle but it is an Electravan. LR.........>
Hi EVerybody;
Now we have our Rex streightened out. Oops that sorta slipped out<g>!
The
Electravan sure doesn't looked "wrecked" to me! The body looks fine,
repairs
are needed to fix the droopy bumper. Bolts sheared?Or if that was in New
England, home of Rust-O-Matic, there wouldn't be any frame left to hold
the
bumper up in place. Get out the Mig or Tig, and build up a new set of
frame
rails, start from there. But in FS, CA rust isn't the plague like here.
You
still have clean Rabbits to convert! I hafta do some serious remedial rust
repairs on mine.
Seeya at Power of DC
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and All,
I'm planning on putting 2 D+D 6.7" motors,
same as the ADC A89, nose to nose and was wondering
how to match them for my new production EV. They will
run in series/parallel direct drive with a Alltrak's
450 amp controller.
First to see if they are matched could I
run them in series while hooked together and see if
they take the same voltage?
Or run them seperately and note the amps?
Or other method?
Could their initial friction before break
in effect this?
I assume I should run then 5-10 hrs on
12vdc to break them in? Would that be enough?
And if they don't match, how should I
match them? Shimming the poles? Timing the brushes?
Ect? Easiest way possible would be nice.
These are '36vdc' motors running on
72vdc so I'm wondering should they be advanced timing
wise or worthwhile or is neutural ok?
Eff and long life is the main focus
here.
Jim, your posts have been very
interesting,
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- hi_torque_electric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>
> *The need for the cheapest, easiest, quickest ways
> to retrofit these
> two motors into a single shafted motor. I thought a
> lot about other
> options here, (Higher Tech / Higher dollar) or (no
> middle bearing at
> all) John insisted on a middle bearing so I opted to
> use existing
> materials. On John's Advance motors, OEM they hold
> the D.E. plate
> true on the outside of the housing. I simply
> machined one of his
> existing D.E. plates to fit on the inside of the 2nd
> housing opposite
> the outer gripping side, and this becomes the middle
> bearing and fan
> plate. I like the inside aligning style as it has a
> solid lip that
> runs the full depth of the plate and is much
> stronger than grabbing
> it the outside way. Leaving just a 1/8" thick outer
> edge lip to hold
> the plate true could be broken much easier. As you
> stated if / when,
> his middle bearing goes bad it will be a bit
> difficult getting an
> armature off just to change a bearing, but
>
> 1)He ran 4 seasons with these and I found just 1
> (smaller) C.E.
> bearing that was getting rough. (In 4 years he will
> be using triple
> 9's or something other than these. lol)
>
> 2)I believed this occurred only because his motors
> were not truly
> aligned putting stress there.
>
> 3)I've pressed these armatures on and off shafts for
> 24 years now and
> it's easier for me to do this than buy a high dollar
> unit and then
> still have to fit it in.
>
> 4)By using an OEM part I know all my holes align
> together and keep
> coils aligned inline with each other. And is my
> cheapest option.
>
> Remember I consider this unit to be a proto type
> design just to see
> if everything will work like we hope it will. I feel
> as if I'm now
> falling a little behind in the project, do to shop
> load, and that we
> devoted time to completing the yellow beast. We are
> now into June
> and the need to get John up and running is ever
> pressing. There are
> many, many things that will not happen on this pair,
> just do to a
> need to get them on the track this year. Also the
> middle bearing
> area will be pressed onto the shaft with the same
> force used to keep
> armatures on.
>
> James wrote:
> Say for instance that the shaft was locked, and
> enough load was put on
> the armature; what's to keep it from spinning on the
> shaft?
>
> *The custom shaft made by Keith at Dutchman's is a
> work of art (I
> call it Excalibur and swing it around the shop,
> hehehe). It is
> different in design from OEM style shafts though,
> and is another
> proto type design.
> If you stall these armatures (let alone at high
> voltages) it will
> either burn the comm. With stall marks and burn up
> your armatures, or
> they could spin loose from the shaft. I've seen
> lots of spun loose
> armatures over the years.
> Whether these armatures stay put we'll just have to
> see.
> Lastly, I had intended that to be an E-mail just for
> John to give him
> a status of what was left to do, (My apologies to
> John and or the
> group).
> Hope this gives you some insight as to your why
> questions.
> Thanks all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does a 4.5kw motor mean? 4500 watt motor? That's ten times more
powerful than an average scooter motor. CCW is OK for left mounted
sprockets. Would this pump motor be any better or worse than any other
series wound motor? Feels solid and smooth. It is rated 23v 4.5kw for 5
minutes. Is this the melt down point? Wonder what the continous use would
be? Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
What have I got here? I hooked it up and thought I was lucky to
get the
motor direction right with the fan sucking air in at the brushes
and out the
vent holes. I thought I'd reverse the polarity and see what it
sounded
like. Suprise, the motor still rotated CCW. Is this a shunt
motor? It
has marked A & F connections. (ND 4.5KW. 23v 5 minute rate.) Just
two. No
other connections.
Response:
A motor with only 2 terminals means you've got a pump motor and it
will only run one direction. Unless it's a permanent magnet motor,
it won't reverse when you switch the "A" and "F" posts. With
forklift motors, a pump motors design has an internal connection that
locks one side of the field coil set to one side of a brush ring and
brush pair. It could be modified to reverse but you'd have to
disconnect the internal connection that jumps the field coils to the
brush ring. Look for a small cable jumper running from the field
coils that is screwed down to one of the brush holders. If you
separate this connection you create 2 extra terminal connection
spots. Remove that jumper and attach a piece of cable there to use
as a terminal this becomes "A2". The cable attached to the field
coils can be used as is, (or by extending it for easier connecting)
and becomes "F2". Connect "A2" to "F2" and you've reconnected you
motor, as it was, CCW with batteries still connecting at the now "A1
and F1" terminals. Switch "A1" with "A2" making "A2" now going to
battery and "A1" now jumping to "F2" the motor will now go CW. If
your connection is solid in nature, and not a cable lead jumper it
becomes a bigger fix.
Hopes this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
23v 4.5KW at the 5 minute rate. A little bigger than an A89. How many
volts in EV use? Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, why don't they make the motor frame out of aluminum?
If you mean the outer steel cylinder ( the endcaps are already aluminum)
that holds the field coils - that cylinder is part of the magnetic flux path
that pruduces the field. It has to be made of a magnetic material (aluminum
would not work at all).
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use a turkey baster myself...
At 03:58 PM 6/5/2005 -0400, you wrote:
Resending, message apparently wasn't delivered yesterday.
Balkamp Battery Acid Filler -- Battery Filler, Automatic,2 Quart
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/search_results_product_detail.d2w/report?prrfnbr=15616588
Is this a good solution for routine watering of flooded lead acid batteries?
It says "Acid Filler", but it looks like it would work for just adding
water... and also seems like it would make the process faster and easier.
Glenn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably around 1Kw, maybe a little more if you get some cooling air into
it. I have some Pescos like that. 220 amps @ 24 volts for 1 minute out of
15. 17 lbs of dynomite!! I have one apart that I have started to work on the
splined shaft problem and plan to louver the sheet metal brush cover. Should
be an interesting scooter/minibike motor once its done.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
> What does a 4.5kw motor mean? 4500 watt motor? That's ten times more
> powerful than an average scooter motor. CCW is OK for left mounted
> sprockets. Would this pump motor be any better or worse than any other
> series wound motor? Feels solid and smooth. It is rated 23v 4.5kw for 5
> minutes. Is this the melt down point? Wonder what the continous use
would
> be? Lawrence Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Forklift motor rotates CW no matter the polarity.
>
>
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >> What have I got here? I hooked it up and thought I was lucky to
> > get the
> >> motor direction right with the fan sucking air in at the brushes
> > and out the
> >> vent holes. I thought I'd reverse the polarity and see what it
> > sounded
> >> like. Suprise, the motor still rotated CCW. Is this a shunt
> > motor? It
> >> has marked A & F connections. (ND 4.5KW. 23v 5 minute rate.) Just
> > two. No
> >> other connections.
> >
> > Response:
> > A motor with only 2 terminals means you've got a pump motor and it
> > will only run one direction. Unless it's a permanent magnet motor,
> > it won't reverse when you switch the "A" and "F" posts. With
> > forklift motors, a pump motors design has an internal connection that
> > locks one side of the field coil set to one side of a brush ring and
> > brush pair. It could be modified to reverse but you'd have to
> > disconnect the internal connection that jumps the field coils to the
> > brush ring. Look for a small cable jumper running from the field
> > coils that is screwed down to one of the brush holders. If you
> > separate this connection you create 2 extra terminal connection
> > spots. Remove that jumper and attach a piece of cable there to use
> > as a terminal this becomes "A2". The cable attached to the field
> > coils can be used as is, (or by extending it for easier connecting)
> > and becomes "F2". Connect "A2" to "F2" and you've reconnected you
> > motor, as it was, CCW with batteries still connecting at the now "A1
> > and F1" terminals. Switch "A1" with "A2" making "A2" now going to
> > battery and "A1" now jumping to "F2" the motor will now go CW. If
> > your connection is solid in nature, and not a cable lead jumper it
> > becomes a bigger fix.
> >
> > Hopes this helps
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
Here is the correct link for lodging for the Power of DC race. Thanks
for calling it to my attention.
http://www.masondixondragway.com/Hotels.htm
I believe people have camped out overnight the night before. I often
see big rigs pulling into the place as we are leaving and I think those
folks sleep overnight in their rigs.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
301-490-0657
cell 240-687-1678
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thought I'd update the list to let everyone know that Otmar was
able to fix my controller in about an hour! Fortunately, he had a
similar spring on hand. Now I'm going to take the broken spring and try
to find an exact (or at least close) replacement so I'll be ready for
next time.
Thanks, Otmar!
Jenn
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodriguez, Jennifer {Info~Palo Alto}
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Spring broke inside EVT controller
Argh! On my way to work this morning, all of a sudden there was no
spring-back on the throttle handle of my EVT 4000e scooter. This
happened to me once before, when I first got my (demo-model) scooter.
The spring on the throttle cable INSIDE the controller broke and I had
no real throttle control anymore. At that time, I got the controller
replaced under warranty. But that was two years and 6300 miles ago.
Thank goodness that the motor cuts out when the brakes are applied,
hopefully I'll be able to limp my way home. (I think it will be more
like ZOOM-coast-ZOOM-coast-ZOOM-coast...).
If anyone else has dealt successfully with this issue, I'd love to hear
about it. Todd Kollin says he heard that someone on the East coast was
actually able to replace the spring successfully, but Todd does not know
how/where to get the correct replacement spring.
Thanks!
Jenn
Yellow EVT 4000e
Santa Clara, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is mostly for Jim H but was wondering how one can safely press an armature
shaft in and out without damaging the commutator? Do you ever have problems
spinning the armature on the shaft? And how much does this cost? I have a # of
motors and starter/generators laying around that this would be very helpful
for. Especially if one can find a longer shaft that can be readily adapted. Hey
Jim, you want to build a mini Siamesed motor? I have some aircraft spec Pesco 4
hp units that are rated for 24V 220 amps intermittant. Might be a nifty drag
bike or ? motor. Series/parallel shift, maybe a motor guru like you could
figure out a good way to cool them for cont operation. 2 would probably weigh
around 30 lbs.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We'd love to have some West Coast people race at the PDC this year or
come out to visit.
I know that some people are spontaneous so if you leave soon you can
still get here in time.
Dennis, we'd really like to have another dragster out for the race. It
would be great for Discovery to get two dragsters going head to head.
I've heard you have a prior race scheduled but its something to
consider. The invite is always there.
The Brigham Young University Team plans to leave Tuesday from Utah.
We're hoping their final testing with their EV-1 goes smoothly on
Monday.
See ya,
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chip,
Sounds like this year's event is going to be much larger than last years!
Matt, Lowell and I are going to be loading up the bikes & Miramar's Porsche
and heading up on Thursday afternoon. We have a lot of testing to do this
week, (and Lowell has a new Z2K to wire up in the Porsche...) but we will be
driving up from Florida mid-afternoon on Thursday and hope to be getting in
mid to late Friday afternoon.
Are there any plans for pre-race get together Friday night anywhere?
We will be bringing a couple of new electric mini-bikes and parts for the
swap meet.
See ya up there! (And thanks for doing an amazing job at getting this
race/event together! You're awesome!)
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chip Gribben
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: West Coasters Invited out to Power of DC
We'd love to have some West Coast people race at the PDC this year or
come out to visit.
I know that some people are spontaneous so if you leave soon you can
still get here in time.
Dennis, we'd really like to have another dragster out for the race. It
would be great for Discovery to get two dragsters going head to head.
I've heard you have a prior race scheduled but its something to
consider. The invite is always there.
The Brigham Young University Team plans to leave Tuesday from Utah.
We're hoping their final testing with their EV-1 goes smoothly on
Monday.
See ya,
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Completed a bit of testing with the Piranha today. She's ready except for some
cosmetic and safety treatments.
We'll be in the area Friday evening.
Coming with swap meet parts.
Some freebees too.
See you all there.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First to see if they are matched could I
run them in series while hooked together and see if
they take the same voltage?
Or run them seperately and note the amps?
Or other method?
Could their initial friction before break
in effect this?
I've read before (on this list) about the idea of using the no-load current
(and/or no-load RPM) at a given voltage as a way to determing if motors are
"matched".
I don't think these are relevant measurements.
When I was breaking in my slightly used ADC 8", I noticed that the no-load
current ( and RPM) at 12V would change significantly if I pushed down on one
of the brushes with a finger while it was running. I was not adding a lot
of force, but, apparently, the no load current and speed was largely
determined by the drag torque on the unloaded motor. Some of this is the
fan and bearings, but obviously a large part is brush drag. I don't think
differences in the low levels of these drag torques would make an important
difference in real motor use.
Let's do a thought experiment:
1. Take two identical motors ( precisely the same in every respect - you
can do this easily in a thought experiment).
2. Now, stick an extra fan on the tailshaft of one of them. ( I forget to
mention they were double-shafted).
3. Run them both with no external load at, say, 12V.
4. The motor with the extra fan will run slower and draw more current.
( I know this, because I ran my motor on the bench with and without the
clutch bolted to the flywheel, and the added air drag of the clutch changed
the current draw from 28 to 33 amps - and slowed it down noticeably. Adding
the flywheel alone, which weighed much more than the clutch, but was
smooth-surfaced, had almost no effect. )
5. One might conclude that these motors are now not well matched ( based on
the no-load test). The RPMs could easily differ by 10 or 20%. But, if
you run these motors at, for example, 4000 RPM with 400 amps of current, the
difference in their torque outputs at that speed and current will be
insignificant. One will ouput less torque than the other, but the
difference will EXACTLY equal the extra torque necessary to turn the fan -
very little compared to the total output torque.
SO, I think the no-load test is too sensitive to non-important differences
in the drag loads of the motors, and won't necessarily predict if a pair of
motors is too un-matched to work together well in a car.
If you want to really determine if motors are well matched, I think you have
to run them at typical in-use RPM, and reasonable torque ( for, example, on
a dyno) and compare their currents and outputs torques under those
conditions.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< All I am looking is the copy of the law that was originally posted. In
reading section 406(b) it contradicts 406(a). The law is rarely consistent,
and you may find that you can be charged under one section while another
completely exonerates you.
No need to argue the point with me, time is better spent arguing with a cop
or a judge if they decide to charge you under 406(b). >>>
Hey, Don, the 2 sections don't actually "contradict" so much as overlap in title
only: the term "motorized bicycle" in section (a) specifies mopeds, which can
max out at 30mph and are REQUIRED to be licensed, while section (b) uses the
exact same term but for bicycles that can also be powered by other means, can
max out at 20mph, and are not licensed.
Another point: if you have a moped [section (a)] that can be pedalled, you *can*
use it in the bike lane as long as the auxillary power is off. And then there
are the electric bikes that look like mopeds, have pedals, but only hit 20mph
and 1000watts of power - they can be ridden in the bike lane because, despite
looking like a moped, they are actually motorized bicycles [section (b)].
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*theoretically* a shunt is a resistor whose value does not change across
its' current range. This is why they survive excessive over-currents -
their resistance value changes when they are hot (outside design spec'),
and returns when they cool down (provided they didn't actually start to
melt).
This is from the technical FAQ on Empro's website (
http://www.emproshunts.com/eng.aspx )
" A: The operating temperature is dictated by the temperature coefficient
of the manganin. We recommend for optimum accuracy that the shunt be between
30-70 degrees C. If the temperature exceeds 80 degrees C. the output may
drift and if it reaches 140 degrees C the resistance will be permanently
altered. "
Manganin is an alloy used in good temperature-insensitive shunts. It
achieves it's temperature balance by careful heat-treating. When it's
heated above a certain temperature, it permanently alters its properties (
both its resistance and its insensitivity to temperature changes. )
SO. don't let your shunt EVER get too hot.,
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:04 PM 5/06/05 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
What does a 4.5kw motor mean? 4500 watt motor? That's ten times more
powerful than an average scooter motor. CCW is OK for left mounted
sprockets. Would this pump motor be any better or worse than any other
series wound motor? Feels solid and smooth. It is rated 23v 4.5kw for 5
minutes. Is this the melt down point? Wonder what the continous use
would be? .......
4500watts at 23V is 195amps, at [x] RPM.
If it is capable of running up to three times the RPM, then at [3x] RPM,
would be (approx) 3 times the voltage, so 13500 watts @ 195A. Still only 5
min rating, but probably capable of taking 20kW for 30 seconds or so. Now
if you can get to 4 or 5 times the RPM, and only need say 5kW, at (for
example) 72V (3x base) the amps is only 69.4 amps, probably in keeping with
its' continuous current rating.
Does it have a blower? My traction motor is rates a measly 4.5hp
@45V/2200RPM 1 hour, but no blower. I'm adding an external blower and will
be running it with a Zilla at up to 5000RPM. I'm going to put kevlar
wrapping around strategic points and get the rotor balanced before putting
it to work.
Is the motor female spline shaft with no stick-out? It would be possible to
have a new end machined that takes a larger bearing, that runs on the
outside of an adaptor shaft. Or if it looks worth it, a new complete center
shaft.
Just my $0.02
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
What, no Neon? I see those things all over the place, and there seems
to be a healthy aftermarket in performance parts. They're not
bad-looking, either. The most sensible choice?
The Neon has been a poorly rated car for many years. Poor interior fit
and finish, high wind and engine noise. It is not exceptionally
inexpensive either (compared to some of its competitors)
For fun, I like the Toyota MR2 Spyder convertible. Too expensive, not a
Toyota has cancelled the MR2. The MK3 was a great car, but it made a
Miata look spacious. 1.9 Cubic feet of storage.. (behind the seats, no
trunk at all) They are fairly affordable used, many owners find
themselves unable to cope with the impracticality of the car. I wanted
to do one as a conversion but after several hours crawling around on I
decide it would never hold enough batteries.
It looks like an impossible task, but if enough batteries could be
crammed into a Mini, it would be really cool. There's now a convertible
Mini would be fun, but they are still pricy.
The Honda Insight? Most efficient car around, and already partly
converted. Probably have the best range.
Somewhat limited availablility.. I am not sure how much longer Honda
will be producing them. (They claim less than 5000 were sold last model
year)
The Prius? See above, with four doors and a back seat.
$$ -Used and new Prius' are typically sold above book.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Power of DC
> Completed a bit of testing with the Piranha today. She's ready except for
some cosmetic and safety treatments.
> We'll be in the area Friday evening.
> Coming with swap meet parts.
> Some freebees too.
>
> See you all there.
>
> Darin Gilbert
> BadFishRacing
>
Hi All;
OK ! Snap decision. I'll tow the Rabbit, which I have dubbed " Led Sled"
down for the races, Leave CT Fri AM, trusty Rusty Ford Van, origional Slow
Boxy Thing, Rabbit in tow. Sleeping stuff aboard, Arrive Fri Nite. at the
track. Yes you can camp out there, we have before.
Watching the Rabbit run should be exciting as watching grass grow or
paint dry. But whatthehell, EV's are fun. It aint a racing thing, but with a
stronger clutch, no time to change it NOW!Weeded out a few tired batteries,
should help beat Acela times?Off the line, anyhow?
Seeya There!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I and a few EV friends went to the dealer and spent about 30 minutes
crawling around a PT Cruiser. The dealer didn't have any new Cruisers
on the lot, and the sales guy said they sold oddly. A big batch would
sit on the lot for months, then they'd sell out in a weeklong rush. Not
sure what to make of that.
The good news is the PT is a pretty good conversion choice. The area
behind the rear axle is average with the spare tire well removed. There
is space under the rear seats (gas tank) although the complicated
mounting system for folding/removable rear seats will make it somewhat
difficult to fit boxes in.
The convertible version appears to be identical to the standard version
from the windows down. (The convertible top eats up the top half of the
"trunk" area behind the rear seats.) Kits would probably fit both cars.
Bad news is that underhood spacing is very tight. I didn't have a tape
but a 9" motor may not fit between the frame rail and the tranny face.
The raked front grill means the top accessible area is about 2 x 1.5
feet. The engine probably can only be removed from the bottom.
The salesman did say the front clip/grill was easily removable, which
might make things easier. The standard (2.4L) version and the
turbocharged convertible did not appear to share the same transmission.
(Both were manual). Wiring harness looks good. All the engine
sensors appear to be on a seperate harness from the lights and indicators.
So.. I am going to look into the PT first... while it is a bit heavy the
optional convertible is a big plus, and the distinctive styling is a
nice addition.
A new PT Cruiser:
Standard Base: $13,622
Standard w/power: $15,500
Convertible Base: $19,700
Convertible w/Power options (Touring Edition): $23,000
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 5, 2005, at 8:48 PM, Mark Farver wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
For fun, I like the Toyota MR2 Spyder convertible. Too expensive,
not a
Toyota has cancelled the MR2. The MK3 was a great car, but it made a
Miata look spacious. 1.9 Cubic feet of storage.. (behind the seats,
no trunk at all) They are fairly affordable used, many owners find
themselves unable to cope with the impracticality of the car. I
wanted to do one as a conversion but after several hours crawling
around on I decide it would never hold enough batteries.
There's still an MR2 Spyder convertible.
http://www.toyota.com/mr2spyder/index.html
Unless they have failed to delete it from their web site.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
> A new PT Cruiser:
> Standard Base: $13,622
> Standard w/power: $15,500
>
> Convertible Base: $19,700
> Convertible w/Power options (Touring Edition): $23,000
2005 PT Cruiser: $9988
http://www.normandodge.com/
(scroll down a bit, read fine print below sale ad)
Also, a few 3/4/5 thousand dollar ones listed:
http://motors.listings.ebay.com/Chrysler_PT-Cruiser_W0QQfclZ3QQfromZR12QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ3QQsacatZ15285QQsbrsrtZlQQsocmdZListingItemList
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try this with series motors:
Measure the amps, volts and RPM of the motor(s) in motion and compute the
dynamic resistance of the motor from the equation:
Ohms/RPM= Volts/Amps/RPM
The same motor should read the same dynamic resistance regardless of the
voltage or drag.
The static resistance is measured with the motor stopped and is computed
from the equation:
Ohms= Volts/Amps
The current that the motor draws at any particular RPM is:
Amps=Volts/((dynamic resistance*RPM)+static resistance)
If a pair of motors have similar static and dynamic resistance's, the motors
should behave very much alike.
If the timing is different, the dynamic resistance will be different.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:55 PM
Subject: RE: Matching 2 motor set ups, was Re: Siamese Motors
>
> > First to see if they are matched could I
> >run them in series while hooked together and see if
> >they take the same voltage?
> > Or run them seperately and note the amps?
> >Or other method?
> > Could their initial friction before break
> >in effect this?
> >
>
> I've read before (on this list) about the idea of using the no-load
current
> (and/or no-load RPM) at a given voltage as a way to determing if motors
are
> "matched".
>
> I don't think these are relevant measurements.
>
>
> When I was breaking in my slightly used ADC 8", I noticed that the no-load
> current ( and RPM) at 12V would change significantly if I pushed down on
one
> of the brushes with a finger while it was running. I was not adding a lot
> of force, but, apparently, the no load current and speed was largely
> determined by the drag torque on the unloaded motor. Some of this is the
> fan and bearings, but obviously a large part is brush drag. I don't think
> differences in the low levels of these drag torques would make an
important
> difference in real motor use.
>
> Let's do a thought experiment:
>
> 1. Take two identical motors ( precisely the same in every respect -
you
> can do this easily in a thought experiment).
>
> 2. Now, stick an extra fan on the tailshaft of one of them. ( I forget to
> mention they were double-shafted).
>
> 3. Run them both with no external load at, say, 12V.
>
> 4. The motor with the extra fan will run slower and draw more current.
> ( I know this, because I ran my motor on the bench with and without the
> clutch bolted to the flywheel, and the added air drag of the clutch
changed
> the current draw from 28 to 33 amps - and slowed it down noticeably.
Adding
> the flywheel alone, which weighed much more than the clutch, but was
> smooth-surfaced, had almost no effect. )
>
> 5. One might conclude that these motors are now not well matched ( based
on
> the no-load test). The RPMs could easily differ by 10 or 20%. But, if
> you run these motors at, for example, 4000 RPM with 400 amps of current,
the
> difference in their torque outputs at that speed and current will be
> insignificant. One will ouput less torque than the other, but the
> difference will EXACTLY equal the extra torque necessary to turn the fan -
> very little compared to the total output torque.
>
>
> SO, I think the no-load test is too sensitive to non-important differences
> in the drag loads of the motors, and won't necessarily predict if a pair
of
> motors is too un-matched to work together well in a car.
>
> If you want to really determine if motors are well matched, I think you
have
> to run them at typical in-use RPM, and reasonable torque ( for, example,
on
> a dyno) and compare their currents and outputs torques under those
> conditions.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had one question nagging at the back of my brain....
How are you going to bolt the second housing to the center DE plate in a
sanitary and clean looking geometry.
I know the first one bolts to it with the four original bolts. How do you
attach the second one so it does not rotate when the motor is torqued?
How do the four bolt holes in the second housing line up with the four bolt
holes in the first housing?
If they are not clocked correctly, the two armature end housing bolt
patterns will be rotated relative to one another.
I know that the clocking on the DE end does not matter because the brush
timing is governed by the clocking of the brush end.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "hi_torque_electric" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ryan Stotts" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Siamese Motors
> *The need for the cheapest, easiest, quickest ways to retrofit these
> two motors into a single shafted motor. I thought a lot about other
> options here, (Higher Tech / Higher dollar) or (no middle bearing at
> all) John insisted on a middle bearing so I opted to use existing
> materials. On John's Advance motors, OEM they hold the D.E. plate
> true on the outside of the housing. I simply machined one of his
> existing D.E. plates to fit on the inside of the 2nd housing opposite
> the outer gripping side, and this becomes the middle bearing and fan
> plate. I like the inside aligning style as it has a solid lip that
> runs the full depth of the plate and is much stronger than grabbing
> it the outside way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found it interesting that the photo did not show a commutator or a fan.
Any idea why?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Siamese Motors
> James wrote:
>
> > Pressing the armature off in order to replace the center bearing sounds
a
> > lot of work,
>
>
> Say for instance that the shaft was locked, and enough load was put on
> the armature; what's to keep it from spinning on the shaft?
>
> http://www.imagehosting.us/himages/ihnp-510863.jpg
>
> How's it held in place?
>
> Also, why don't they make the motor frame out of aluminum?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> This is mostly for Jim H but was wondering how one can safely press
an armature shaft
This responds to several posts
First, only armatures with bake-a-lite comm.'s can be pressed off
reliably. If they have steel types the shaft needs to be bored out
passed the riser, so that you don't crush the comm. If you have the
bake-a-lite type you might be able to press it yourself. First of
all you need to grab the armature from the outer edge of the body.
You may have to remove some balancing putty to do this, just take a
file and remove enough to seat body edge to cup lip (you can use some
JB Weld to replace the putty for a close touch up for balance). You
will need to machine a pressing cup (tough enough for 20 to 30 tons)
that allows the body to slip into the steel cup (allow some slop)
about an inch into it, where it will bottom out on a lip that might
only be 1/10 of an inch thicker. You can press from the top of a
pressing cup, but the armature can kick out so be careful. If you
try to press from the inside area next to the shaft with a small bore
tube it pinches the shaft making it harder to press out.
Next I heat the armature in my oven to 365 degrees F. See if
armature still fits, it should if you machined a little slop. Next,
set the armature into the cup comm. up and apply something like WD40
in between the bake-a-lite comm. and the shaft, and let it sip in for
a minute or two. While the armature is still hot use a press to
press the C.E. Shaft down and out the back. If all goes well you
should hear a load bang as your shaft pops loose and has probably
moved a good � inch, continue pressing until shaft is out. If all
did not go as planned your comm. is now � inch lower and probably
looks kind of funny like it had too many beers lmao. Anyways that's
all there is to it. I would crush around 10 % of any type if I
didn't know where to stop and when to start boring it out, which can
be a bummer to do also. To replace a new shaft make sure that the
comm. can slide over the new comm. area on the shaft or you will
press the comm. out trying to get it back in. I recommend lock-tight
and a good dip and bake before returning it to service but hey�
About small twins
I'd love to take a look at some motors for a small twin version.
Timing is not right for a fast built time being as I'm busy at the
shop right now and with John's pair needing finishing. If it's a no
rush work as you can ship a pair out to me or at least some pic's. I
do feel these smaller ones will need to be bored out, but still not
to hard.
About aluminum housings
Furthermore I did once build an all aluminum aircraft starter 20
years ago that was made of all aluminum except for the armature body,
pole shoes, and shaft. So you can make a motor with an aluminum
housing. Motor looked a 100 pounds weighed about 30 and I almost
threw my back out lifting the little monster to be lol. It was going
to be used for an electric car, which I never saw (bummer).
About timing and rpm's
As the twins will both drive a fan, the same fan we will have the
same load on it as we will have on the preset timing on OEM side of
the motor. One fan and an extra armature. We will be at least able
to time the second motor fairly close to the set side and will be
closer than any two OEM motors would be as they come from factory.
This maybe a very small but then sometimes you might just need
another tenth of a second to make a record right??
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-torque Electric
541-548-6140
--- End Message ---
