EV Digest 4441
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Regen issues
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:(AC/DC Hybrid) Regen issues
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fw: AeroVironment motor, Airships are cool!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BYU's EV 1 - Thanks to Power of DC Organizers
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "allstar5548" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) wiring questions
by John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fw: AeroVironment motor, Airships are cool!
by James Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: wiring questions
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: wiring questions -
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: wiring questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fw: AeroVironment motor, Airships are cool!
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise(?) still persists
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists (now, Electrocution)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
....... you must set your brush timing to neutral (compromising drive
mode efficiency) and you must limit the regen voltage and current to
avoid commutator damage.
Roger.
Wasn't this efficiency question hotly debated last year? As I recall, brush
timing (within the range of normal settings) has little to do with motor
efficiency, only brush and commutator life. Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the company website and history, It is "Dampf-Kraft-Wagen". The
web site is in German.
http://www.dkw-autos.de/update_start.htm
Jeff Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
I remember the fellow I met calling it that also. He told me it was a
nick-name
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 6:02 AM
Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
> RR,
>
> The DKW owner referred to it as De Kleine Wonder.
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Richard Rau
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> Sorry, I had a typo. I think it's Deutsche Kleines Wagen
>
> RR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Richard Rau
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> DKW= Deutsche Klein's Wagen= German small auto
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:38 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: lightweight 4wd Vehicles (was Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.)
>
> Der Klein Wunder?
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
> - Harold S.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
On 6/16/05, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Don needs to have his laptop's neg supply reference to the neg.
side of the battery pack, not to the chassy. This menas he
cannot use 12V sigarette lighter output to power
laptop. He needs a DC-DC converter fed from the pack.
I don't think so Victor - laptops tend to have isolated, switch mode
supplies. The laptop chassis will therefore be floating, however he
provides power to it's PSU.
I'm not talking about external in line brick - these indeed are
isolated, but he's not usin that. He needs an isolated PS fed
by a DC fromn the pack, this is special item.
Second, laptops have no "chassy", the y have common ground, local for
all their circuitry.
In my opinion that's a safety hazard. An isolator should be used in
the RS232 signal from the E-meter to the laptop, end of story!
This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for safety,
but the laptop is not a permanent part of the vehicle, Don only needs
to gather some data with it. You don't optically insulate a fluke meter
do you? Because it already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop
if supplied from own battery. We just talking about replacement
of that laptop's battery by a power supply.
Input isolation
in his case needed for noise reduction, not safety concerns.
There is no part of laptop you can receive the shock from.
Be reasonable and technical to make your point, "end of story"
based on paranoya or fear isn't very useful motivation :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting concept, until you remember that the reason the DC torque monster
can't go to high RPM's is it's tendency
to fly apart at those speeds.
AC motors can be made into low speed torque monsters too, they just need more
silicon in the controller.
DC motors can be made high speed also, especially now that Jim is on our side!!
And I don't think you want to throw the AC switches into parallel, you will
make quite an effective brake if you do.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Andre' Blanchard
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:14 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Regen issues
>
> Here is an idea that passes thru my head every once and a while.
> __________
> | FIELD |
> | REVERSING|
> | AND |
> __________| BYPASS |____________________
> | | CONTATORS| |
> | |__________| |
> --- __|__|__|__|__ _________ ____|____
> - | A1 S1 S2 A2 | |___| |
> --- __| | AC | | SPEED |
> - |__| SERIES DC | |---| |
> --- | MOTOR | MOTOR |___| CONTROL |
> - |______________|_________| |_________|
> | |
> |__________________________________________|
>
>
> The idea is to merge the low speed high torque of a series DC motor with the
> high RPM capability of an AC system.
> At low speeds the three sets of power switches in the AC control could be
> operated in parallel, effectively removing the AC motor from the system and
> getting max current thru the DC motor.
> At higher speeds the AC motor would be brought on line with the current
> still going thru the DC motor.
> At very high speeds the DC motor could be bypassed, possibly even have a
> system to pull the brushes away from the com.
> Regen could be done with or without the DC motor in the circuit
>
> Any possible advantage to this system could likely be bettered with a single
> wound rotor AC motor, but it makes for and interesting diagram.
>
> Now Lee can dig up a reference to this being done a long time ago.:)
> ___________ Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
>
>
> At 08:05 AM 6/15/2005, you wrote:
>>I have been following this thread for a few days and a question comes up.
>>
>>Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is
>>talking about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X? Is regen regen? I
>>was planning on an AC genhead on the front of my netgain 9" for some
>>regen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and All,
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: AeroVironment motor
> >
> >
> > > I just read an article in E-Drive magazine about
> > > AeroViroments new 40kW ironless core electric
> motor
> > > prototype intended to be used on the Lockheed
> Martin
> > > high altitude airship.
> > > They claim part-load efficiencies greater than
> 98%.
> > > Does anybody have more info on this motor?
> > > There was nothing on their web site.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rod
> > > Hi EVerybody;
> >
> > Howbout the high alitude AIRSHIP? That
> sounds like fun. Airships
> > usually like low altitude, more lift. Airships
> were a facinating facit of
Sorry Bob, but passenger carrying airships are
not going to happen as they can not cope with even
moderate weather.
I've lived near 2 airship, blimp bases for 15
yrs, both military and commercial, and many problems,
accidents happen all the time including the
destruction of many of the craft. Not a pretty sight.
But for what they are probably talking about,
very high altitude, 70,000' up, EV solar powered
airships to take the place of satilites for
communications is very promising as the costs of them
are much lower than satelites by probably a factor of
10!! And they can be repaired plus don't leave junk in
space after they are used up.
By using solar cells combined with fuel cells
instead of batteries and EV drives means in 10 yrs
they should start to take over much satelite work.
The Hindenburg's skin was made up of the same
chemicals we now use the the Space Shuttles booster
rockets as rocket fuel that when combined with static
electricity from when the landing ropes touched the
ground probably started the fire. That's what Zeppelin
thought even back then in their secert internal report
and recent test also bore out.
And anyone who works, plays around old
airplanes know you will be screamed at lighting up a
cigarette around one as they are such a fire haszard
if finished in the traditional way with nitrate dope,
cotton which is also how you make gun cotton, and old
cannon propellant.
I personally think a H2 filled very high
altitude airship with modern skin materials, coatings,
solar powered, EV drive has a great place in our
future!! Just not for people travel.
A nice, fat teardrop shaped wing about 2.5
wide as for/aft and deep, covered on top by solar
cells has much potential.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> > air travel. The Zeppelin Co. had a perfect safety
> record 'til the
> Hindinberg
> > mishap. It was BOMBED from within, an " Infernal
> Device" they were called
> > back then. I read that book, too.Early airships
> were battery electric,
> > suffering more than us with the battery weight
> problem! We can just add
> more
> > springs. Can't do that with an airship<G>!
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Erekson wrote:
> Getting a
> chain drive to handle the torque has been problematic -- we have broken
> chains, torn teeth off sprockets, stripped keys in shafts, twisted off jack
> shafts and half shafts, and so forth. We twisted off the jack shaft three
> weeks before the Power of DC event and had to redesign, build, install, and
> test a new jack shaft before we could leave for Hagerstown -- the new jack
> shaft worked flawlessly -- we actually got in three runs before we found
> the next weakest link in the mechanical drive.
Put one of these monsters in it...
http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-50.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
> Sunday.
>
> Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
> machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
> little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the
smoke
> cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
> desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
>
>
>
> Gloatingly,
>
> Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
Any pictures of your car, specs, etc. ???? A video would of been great.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for some input on wiring options for my
conversion.
What are the benefits and drawbacks of removing the
engine control computer (ECCS for my vehicle) and many
of the no longer used wires associated with the ICE?
It would give me a cleaner look, but I am somewhat
concerned out breaking circuits that I will need.
My vehicle is a 86.5 nissan king kab pickup and I will
be instlling a Zilla 1K, 9 inch ADC motor, a PFC-30
charger and a DCDC converter.
The dash has already been removed to get at the heater
core, therefore I have easy access to 95% of the
original wire bundles and harnesses.
Thanks in advance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for
> safety, but the laptop is not a permanent part of the
> vehicle, Don only needs to gather some data with it. You
> don't optically insulate a fluke meter do you? Because it
> already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop if
> supplied from own battery.
Bad choice of example, Victor ;^>
The Fluke 189 RS232 output *is* optically isolated (IR connection)
despite the meter having a plastic case and beign powered from its own
battery.
In general one may not add an external opto-isolator to their multimeter
RS232 output simply because the isolation is already built into most
DMMs. It is a very good idea to ensure that the data output is isolated
from the circuit under test; either the meter manufacturer does this for
you, or you add it yourself.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would definitely be interested in passenger travel in an Airship I
love them,
have a couple books on them and bought one of the remote RC airships. If the
EV Airship had an enclosed cabin could it not avoid the weather by ascending
above the weather for cross Continetal trips, I guess the problem would be
landing and leaving?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For what it's worth, I got the Factory Service Manual for my 1993 Geo Metro
and looked over the wiring diagram for the Engine Control Computer. I
determined that none of the wiring was necessary in my case.
The only change I had to make was that the "Check Engine" light was wired
through the ECC, and instead I rerouted it through the ADC's "overheat"
switch, and then to ground.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John OConnor
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: wiring questions
I am looking for some input on wiring options for my
conversion.
What are the benefits and drawbacks of removing the
engine control computer (ECCS for my vehicle) and many
of the no longer used wires associated with the ICE?
It would give me a cleaner look, but I am somewhat
concerned out breaking circuits that I will need.
My vehicle is a 86.5 nissan king kab pickup and I will
be instlling a Zilla 1K, 9 inch ADC motor, a PFC-30
charger and a DCDC converter.
The dash has already been removed to get at the heater
core, therefore I have easy access to 95% of the
original wire bundles and harnesses.
Thanks in advance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, for those of you who didn't pick up on the tongue-in-cheek game we were
playing, here is a portion of a reply to my drag race post-
>I was there and I will play witness, even if it wasn't john's fastest
scooter, ;). You better be careful with these guys though Richard or
they'll find a way to cube you up and use you as their new Hawkers : 0. I
was glad you brought your new toy to show and tell. Although I am a newbie
also it was fun to see some EV grins flock to your machine and change to
"human powered grins. Thanks for the show, not often John gets smoked.
Keep up the good work.
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric<
Truth is, the machine I was riding when John so boldly challenged me to a
race with his scooter is called a QuadraPed. Yes, all human power. This
latest model is a titanium/carbon fibre/aluminum/4130 version of my
production models.
Three wheels (two in front, steered) with arm pedals as well as leg.
If anyone wants one built they are going to have to wait until next year
when I'm done with my EV Civic conversion.
Glad you asked,
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of allstar5548
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:02 PM
To: Richard Rau
Subject: Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
> Sunday.
>
> Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
> machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
> little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the
smoke
> cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
> desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
>
>
>
> Gloatingly,
>
> Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
Any pictures of your car, specs, etc. ???? A video would of been great.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got a couple pictures of the bike, but they're not that great. If no
one else from that evening has any pictures, I'd be happy to post. Anybody
know where I can put them so that folks on the list can see them?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of allstar5548
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:02 PM
To: Richard Rau
Subject: Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
> Sunday.
>
> Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
> machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
> little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the
smoke
> cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
> desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
>
>
>
> Gloatingly,
>
> Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
Any pictures of your car, specs, etc. ???? A video would of been great.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't already have it, it would be worth it to get a copy of the
factory wiring diagram to help answer that question. For my Toyota Echo
conversion, this is a 180 page book that shows all the circuits and what
everything does, including every connection on every connector in the car.
I found a copy on EBay for about $20. It is very complete and well
written ( if a bit oddly phrased, at times, probably because of being
translated from Japanese) Your Nissan's wiring diagram would probably be
similar
With that to look at - and it took some time to go over it and be sure - I
removed the engine computer (they call it ECU) and a LOT of wiring. In my
case, I did not need the computer. At first I thought is processed the
speedo signal, but it ends up that the speedo signal is processed and
displayed in the dash console unit (independently of the ECU) , and the
speedo signal is then sent to the ECU for other purposes.
I ended up tracing and labeling all of the wires in the engine compartment
and dash that I did need, and carefully removed most of the rest.
Also, if you plan to use existing wiring and switches for EV-related
purposes ( example - clutch switch to make clutch is depressed when car is
powered up - for safety, existing AC switch to control PTC heater element,
etc) the factory wiring diagram is well worth the price.
Phil
From: John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: wiring questions
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:20:28 -0700 (PDT)
I am looking for some input on wiring options for my
conversion.
What are the benefits and drawbacks of removing the
engine control computer (ECCS for my vehicle) and many
of the no longer used wires associated with the ICE?
It would give me a cleaner look, but I am somewhat
concerned out breaking circuits that I will need.
My vehicle is a 86.5 nissan king kab pickup and I will
be instlling a Zilla 1K, 9 inch ADC motor, a PFC-30
charger and a DCDC converter.
The dash has already been removed to get at the heater
core, therefore I have easy access to 95% of the
original wire bundles and harnesses.
Thanks in advance.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bill,
I have some studio shots of GenE, but they are hiding in my system and I
need some time to locate them. No website yet to refer to. If anyone is
interested, please contact me off list at email- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It may take several days to answer with a photo.
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
I've got a couple pictures of the bike, but they're not that great. If no
one else from that evening has any pictures, I'd be happy to post. Anybody
know where I can put them so that folks on the list can see them?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of allstar5548
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:02 PM
To: Richard Rau
Subject: Re: I drag raced John Wayland and BLEW HIS DOORS OFF!!
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John hosted a fun and informative EV gathering at his place this last
> Sunday.
>
> Little did he know when I arrived from Corvallis that I had brought a
> machine that would put him in his rightful place. The drag strip was a
> little shorter than we wanted, but we went full-on anyway. When the
smoke
> cleared, all I could see in my rear view mirror was John struggling
> desperately to stay within a furlong of me as I crossed the finish line.
>
>
>
> Gloatingly,
>
> Richard not-a-newbie-anymore Rau
Any pictures of your car, specs, etc. ???? A video would of been great.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
John OConnor wrote:
What are the benefits and drawbacks of removing the
engine control computer (ECCS for my vehicle) and many
of the no longer used wires associated with the ICE?
It would give me a cleaner look, but I am somewhat
concerned out breaking circuits that I will need.
I think it depends a lot on the model year of the vehicle and how
advanced (I mean complicated) the computer system is.
For example, my 1988 Cherokee used the rather primitive Electronic
Control Unit (ECU) system built by Bendix. It was some type of OBD-I
system but it didn't have the capability to store error codes. The only
thing this system controlled other than the engine itself was the A/C
compressor, A/C condensor fan, tachometer, "Maintenance" lamp and an
"upshift now" lamp. Well, the tachometer is driven through the Zilla,
the "upshift now" and "maintenance" lamps are utterly useless in an EV
(actually they were always useless), and I rewired the A/C system
anyways. So for me, there was no reason to keep that bulky metal ECU in
the vehicle, and I removed it with all the engine wiring harnesses.
However, you might want/have to keep the computer in a newer car if it
has a more advanced OBD-II style system that controls other important
things like Anti-lock brakes, Air Bags, electronic speedo/instrument
cluster, etc...
Just my 0.333 kWh (=2 cents),
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Victor was equating the fluke meter with the laptop. Whatever
voltage you are measuring is present in the meter that you are holding in
your hands.
____________
Andre' B.
At 03:41 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for
> safety, but the laptop is not a permanent part of the
> vehicle, Don only needs to gather some data with it. You
> don't optically insulate a fluke meter do you? Because it
> already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop if
> supplied from own battery.
Bad choice of example, Victor ;^>
The Fluke 189 RS232 output *is* optically isolated (IR connection)
despite the meter having a plastic case and beign powered from its own
battery.
In general one may not add an external opto-isolator to their multimeter
RS232 output simply because the isolation is already built into most
DMMs. It is a very good idea to ensure that the data output is isolated
from the circuit under test; either the meter manufacturer does this for
you, or you add it yourself.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre' Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think Victor was equating the fluke meter with the laptop.
> Whatever voltage you are measuring is present in the meter
> that you are holding in your hands.
Agreed. The (significant) difference is that the meter is carefully
constructed such that there are *no* conductive parts that can be
touched. If the DMM has a DB9 connector for RS232 data output, it will
be isolated from the meter internally. And, its plastic bits are
designed to provide electrical isolation for the sorts of voltages that
the meter is designed/rated to measure. The plastic bits on a notebook
are cosmetic with unspecified electrical properties and no attempt is
made to prevent the user from easily contacting conductive metal bits.
As Victor acknowledges, a notebook's ground (and its chassis; yes there
is still a metal chassis inside decent notebooks) are referenced to its
supply ground. A notebook has various connectors on it (USB, DB9
(RS232), Centronics (parallel port/printer), PS2 (mouse, keyboard),
etc.), and the shield/shell of these as well as any ground pins will all
be referenced to the supply ground. If a non-isolated E-meter RS232
connection is made to the notebook, all of these are immediately
connected to the negative side of the traction pack.
The exposed metal parts on the notebook can then pose a safety hazerd.
The connection between the negative side of the traction pack and the
notebook can also pose a threat to the notebook/PC itself, for instance
if the computer is line-powered while logging a charge cycle. Just ask
those who have discovered/proven this the hard way...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Misunderstanding, I meant no one optically insulates
normal leads for voltage measurements, not data port
digital I/Os. (also applies to a meters without RS232
at all). Yes, there are way to optically isolate DC
voltages, just no need in this case because flukes
are isolated from outside.
Victor
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for
safety, but the laptop is not a permanent part of the
vehicle, Don only needs to gather some data with it. You
don't optically insulate a fluke meter do you? Because it
already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop if
supplied from own battery.
Bad choice of example, Victor ;^>
The Fluke 189 RS232 output *is* optically isolated (IR connection)
despite the meter having a plastic case and beign powered from its own
battery.
In general one may not add an external opto-isolator to their multimeter
RS232 output simply because the isolation is already built into most
DMMs. It is a very good idea to ensure that the data output is isolated
from the circuit under test; either the meter manufacturer does this for
you, or you add it yourself.
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
C'mon guys, you understand what I meant.
You don't put insulating gloves when you hold plastic Fluke
in bare hands and measure 240VAC line voltage with it via
non-insulated (optically from its internal cirquitry) leads.
So exactly the same here: plastic laptop you can have on
your lap while it's RS232 is connected to the battery negative
via non-isolated interface.
Victor
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
I think Victor was equating the fluke meter with the laptop. Whatever
voltage you are measuring is present in the meter that you are holding
in your hands.
____________
Andre' B.
At 03:41 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for
> safety, but the laptop is not a permanent part of the
> vehicle, Don only needs to gather some data with it. You
> don't optically insulate a fluke meter do you? Because it
> already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop if
> supplied from own battery.
Bad choice of example, Victor ;^>
The Fluke 189 RS232 output *is* optically isolated (IR connection)
despite the meter having a plastic case and beign powered from its own
battery.
In general one may not add an external opto-isolator to their multimeter
RS232 output simply because the isolation is already built into most
DMMs. It is a very good idea to ensure that the data output is isolated
from the circuit under test; either the meter manufacturer does this for
you, or you add it yourself.
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It appears that modern day Zeppelin-NTs were approved for passenger
service in 1997 and are now in tourist and general passenger service in
Germany and Japan...
See:
http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t4607.html
http://www.zeppelin-nt.com/index_e.htm
cheers,
Andrew
jerry dycus wrote:
Sorry Bob, but passenger carrying airships are
not going to happen as they can not cope with even
moderate weather.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
nitpicker :-)
Roger Stockton wrote:
The exposed metal parts on the notebook can then pose a safety hazerd.
What exposed metal part? You have to purposely try to get to the metal
shell around DB9 wanting to get shocked, touch it with one hand (you're
still insulated from the chassy if the pack floats) and find another
exposed metal part in your car (normally everything is
plastic/rubber/carpet around you) and touch it with other hand.
The chances for this to be "by accident" are no greater than you
touch across your pack with both hands "by accident".
Be reasonable Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:17 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
C'mon guys, you understand what I meant.
You don't put insulating gloves when you hold plastic Fluke
in bare hands and measure 240VAC line voltage with it via
non-insulated (optically from its internal cirquitry) leads.
So exactly the same here: plastic laptop you can have on
your lap while it's RS232 is connected to the battery negative
via non-isolated interface.
Except that on both my laptops, there are metal bits that ARE connected to
it's "ground", that ARE easy to touch. You can quite easily get a shock
off your laptop if the other side of the power touches you for some reason.
(like adjusting something while monitoring the data.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
C'mon Victor, read what I wrote.
__________
Andre' B.
At 05:17 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
C'mon guys, you understand what I meant.
You don't put insulating gloves when you hold plastic Fluke
in bare hands and measure 240VAC line voltage with it via
non-insulated (optically from its internal cirquitry) leads.
So exactly the same here: plastic laptop you can have on
your lap while it's RS232 is connected to the battery negative
via non-isolated interface.
Victor
Andre' Blanchard wrote:
I think Victor was equating the fluke meter with the laptop. Whatever
voltage you are measuring is present in the meter that you are holding in
your hands.
____________
Andre' B.
At 03:41 PM 6/16/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is emotional statement. An isolation has to be used for
> safety, but the laptop is not a permanent part of the
> vehicle, Don only needs to gather some data with it. You
> don't optically insulate a fluke meter do you? Because it
> already has insulative plastic case; so is a laptop if
> supplied from own battery.
Bad choice of example, Victor ;^>
The Fluke 189 RS232 output *is* optically isolated (IR connection)
despite the meter having a plastic case and beign powered from its own
battery.
In general one may not add an external opto-isolator to their multimeter
RS232 output simply because the isolation is already built into most
DMMs. It is a very good idea to ensure that the data output is isolated
from the circuit under test; either the meter manufacturer does this for
you, or you add it yourself.
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Anybody know where I can put them so that folks on the list can see them?
Upload them to one of these sites real quick:
http://www.imageshack.us/
http://www.imageuploader.net/
http://www.imagehosting.us/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> C'mon guys, you understand what I meant.
Actaully, I didn't. I thought you meant isolating the data output of
the DMM, not isolating its probes. In this case, I think the E-Meter is
equivalent to the DMM; no one is suggesting optically isolating the
E-Meter 'probes', but they are suggesting isolating its data output in
the same way as is done with DMMs.
> nitpicker :-)
Guilty as charged ;^>
> What exposed metal part? You have to purposely try to get to
> the metal shell around DB9 wanting to get shocked, touch it
> with one hand (you're still insulated from the chassy if the
> pack floats) and find another exposed metal part in your car
> (normally everything is plastic/rubber/carpet around you) and
> touch it with other hand.
Perhaps your notebook is constructed differently from those I've got.
On mine it is quite easy to touch the exposed metal connectors along its
back edge, for instance, while holding it on my lab with one hand and
reaching for something else with my other hand.
Your car may also be quite different from mine. Mine has lots of
exposed metal in the interior (gearshift lever, handbrake lever, doors,
a-pillars, b-pillars, and, at the moment, the entire floor pan is
exposed (no carpet), etc.). Most of this metal is painted, but there
are numerous screws and bolts that pierce this coating and are
conductive.
> The chances for this to be "by accident" are no greater than
> you touch across your pack with both hands "by accident".
I disagree; it is *more* likely for such an accident to happen with the
notebook/PC because you don't expect it to be connected to the pack.
That is, if I am reaching into my pack, I take great care because I
expect the potential for a shock, but I can easily
overlook/neglect/forget that risk when reaching for something with a
data logging notebook on my lap or in my hand because I don't associate
the notebook with a traction pack connection in my mind.
I fully agree that one can usually 'get by' simply tossing a notebook on
the seat (so it has no contact to anything metallic on the car) and
using a non-isolated connection to the E-Meter. It is still unsafe and
can be made safe with the addition of just a few dollars worth of
hardware, so I see little justification for not doing so, especially if
one plans to log data regularly instead of just once ever. The most
probable accident is not going to be getting a shock from the notebook,
but rather frying the notebook (or at least its serial port) and/or the
E-meter.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having had a couple of personal experiences already with 312V, I want to
avoid any other potential occurrences. My laptop, like some of the others,
does have exposed metal parts. I would prefer to be safe than sorry.
Roger, know of any places I can order an RS232 isolator in Canada? Most on
the web are mail order from the states.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:22 PM -0700 6/16/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
nitpicker :-)
Roger Stockton wrote:
The exposed metal parts on the notebook can then pose a safety hazerd.
What exposed metal part? You have to purposely try to get to the metal
shell around DB9 wanting to get shocked, touch it with one hand (you're
still insulated from the chassy if the pack floats) and find another
exposed metal part in your car (normally everything is
plastic/rubber/carpet around you) and touch it with other hand.
The chances for this to be "by accident" are no greater than you
touch across your pack with both hands "by accident".
Wow Victor!
Comparing the insulation of a DMM to a Notebook. That's quite a stretch!
You claim that your pack is insulated from the Chassis. But you seem
to be forgetting that it's only DC isolation. As was previously shown
as soon as you put the car with a Siemens drive in gear the chassis
is AC coupled to the controller output. And all that plastic you are
touching? Most cars have metal keys (modern ones do have plastic
covers) and the key slot is almost always grounded. Maybe you don't
use the key.
My fluke is rated to be safely used at 1000V. As was said before but
you seemed to ignore, they are designed to do that. Yet, anything
I've seen with exposed connections like a laptop is good for no more
than 50V.
My laptop, and I think this applies to all current Apple Powerbooks
and more rugged PC laptops as well, is an all aluminum case and it is
grounded to the computer system ground. At least it's easy to imagine
the potential problem there.
I have a junky laptop here too, this one happens to be a Vaio. It may
give the illusion of safety since it's plastic, but you would only
have to grab it by the side (as is natural when adjusting the screen
angle) to hit the grounded Firewire port with bare skin. There are
several places just like that all around it.
I agree with the others. It's very unwise to collect data from a
E-Meter without a isolation stage in-line first.
On the bright side it could win you a Darwin award! But unfortunately
Darwin award recipients generally don't live to enjoy them.
In case I didn't make my point clear:
Please do not follow Victors advice on this!
It could be fatal. I'm not exaggerating.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
