EV Digest 4449
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Heat sinking a Curtis controller?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Oozing Motor - bearing selection
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 4QD controls and Alltrax
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: MASM
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Oozing Motor - bearing selection
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Oozing Motor - bearing selection
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Welding on the cheap, part 1
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: MASM, try NASM
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Backhoe Front-loader conversions
by Speireag Alden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Welding on the cheap
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Oozing Motor?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: article: rMOTO Electric Superbike Expected in January 2006
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday 6/25/05 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday 6/25/05 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Backhoe Front-loader conversions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Welding on the cheap, part 1
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Gasless on Greenwood 6/25/05
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: cheap NIMH AA's
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Heat sinking a Curtis controller?
Recommended by Curtis. Experiences of users?
HEAT SINK! I can show you how to overheat a Curtis 1221 on a 1420lbs EV
in about 15 minutes (city drive in 3rd gear - with a rather low 1.32
third gear and 4.37 final drive.)
Actually, that result was not using a heat sink, but a piece of 3/8ths
inch thick aluminum to the bottom (top - its mounted base up.) Not a
small piece either - 10 inches by 15 inches with 1 1/2 inches of air
space above it.
The Curtis 1221 is not large enuf for more than a 2000lbs EV, IMHO. The
1231 is certainly good for more - perhaps 3000lbs??
Baby controllers for baby EVs - I own 2 Curtis 1221b controllers (one
in the EV buggy and one as a backup.)
Neon
<www.evalbum.com/125.html>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The biggest difference between shielded and sealed bearings seems to be
that while shields can keep the grease in, they don't keep moisture and
dirt out of the bearing. Seals do, and this is likely to be an
important distinction in an automotive application.
How about the temperature rating? If the sealed bearings are only good to
250F, is that a problem, since the motor itself can tolerate higher
temperatures than that?
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody tried a 4QD control on a golf cart?
In particular I was looking at this,
http://www.4qd.co.uk/prod/4qd.html
a 300Amp control rated for 48V operation.
I may just install an Alltrax 72Vdc control and have
some headroom for additional batteries.
http://www.alltraxinc.com/old/prod08.htm
Rod
P.S. the 4QD is about $200 cheaper but only rated for
48Vdc
I might just rebuild the Cursit control I currently
have with my electronic control as the brain, but I
have limited time and need to get the cart going :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 21, 2005, at 8:07 AM, Bill Dennis wrote:
Back in the Mesozoic (when desktop computers were still called "IBM"
PC's--man, am I getting old), I used to program in assembler. I've
got a PC
sitting around now that I'd like to use in DOS mode and write some
assembler
on for my EV. Anybody know where I go to get a version of MASM these
days
that doesn't require Windows? It seems like the one from Microsoft's
site
runs only under Windows.
Did you see this page?
http://users.easystreet.com/jkirwan/new/pctools.html
How about this one?
http://nasm.sourceforge.net/
(This message brought to you by Google. I haven't tried to download
any of this stuff and don't know if it works or not.)
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bake my armatures and field coils at 365 F. for just 2 hours and class H
insulation is good for around 100 hours at that temp. so if your running above
250 you got bigger problems. Sealed bearings are used because they keep things
out better than sheilded. I use sealed as I find them smoother and less prone
to noise. I use the SKF brand and I feel they give a good bang for the buck.
But for a few bucks extra one might consider throwing in a realling good
bearing. quality does matter and after all it is your power train.
Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From: "Roger Stockton"
>
>The biggest difference between shielded and sealed bearings seems to be
>that while shields can keep the grease in, they don't keep moisture and
>dirt out of the bearing. Seals do, and this is likely to be an
>important distinction in an automotive application.
How about the temperature rating? If the sealed bearings are only good to
250F, is that a problem, since the motor itself can tolerate higher
temperatures than that?
Phil
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--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How about the temperature rating? If the sealed bearings are
> only good to 250F, is that a problem, since the motor itself
> can tolerate higher temperatures than that?
I don't know that the motor itself can tolerate higher temperatures than
that. While the insulation in the motor may be rated for 180C (~350F),
a normal case temperature is about 140F. The heat is not generated in
the motor shaft or endbells, so the bearings will likely be nearer to
the 140F case temp than the temperature of the brushes or windings.
Besides that, the SKF bearings I looked up the specs on had identical
(150C/300F) temperature ratings for either shielded or sealed versions;
the temperature rating appears based on the specs of the grease, not the
mechanism that retains it.
Once again, I would point out that if the shielded bearing were better
for the application as well as being cheaper, then the manufacturer
would use them. You are unlikely to go wrong replacing the stock
bearing with an equivalent one, which in this case means a sealed
bearing.
I would definitely *not* use a shielded bearing on the comm end due to
the likelihood of water and dirt entering the bearing. You might use a
shielded bearing on the drive end since the tranny bellhousing may
greatly reduce the risk of water ingress, however, there is still the
possibility of dust from the clutch disc contaminating the bearing.
If you really want to go with a higher speed bearing than a standard
sealed unit, you might consider something like the KOYO 6207 2RD; this
is a "lightly sealed" bearing that approaches the performance of a
shielded bearing (6207 ZZ) while retaining the superior moisture and
dust ingress protection of a sealed bearing (6207 2RS). Other more
common (to North America) brands such as SKF might have something
equivalent to KOYO's RD series.
Bear in mind as you shop for bearings that different manufacturer's
6207's will have different speed ratings and different temperature
ratings, and there is no guarantee that a 6207 chosen at random will
match or exceed the performance specs of the original bearing. Check
the datasheet for the bearing you are considering before you buy!
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Enough people wrote something like:
I'd vote for keeping the welding thread, virtually every EV has been
welded or needs welding.
I am not an expert on welding, others will be far better experienced than I
am there. I have been fixing welding equipment for nearly 20 years, have
done some training on welding and on welding equipment. As such I can
contribute to the technical aspects of welding equipment. The part 1 that I
have added to the thread subject if for the following reason: I propose
that discussions of 'roll your own' DC converter and high frequency units
come as parts 2 and 3 of discussion.
There has already been a lot of discussion on welding processes, there is a
good level of information freely available on the web from manufacturers.
As such I feel a brief comment on processes with technical comments about
each will be enough from me, but a greater contribution will come in parts
2 and 3.
I will say at the outset, the most effective way of welding is a 'real'
welder from a quality manufacturer. Look at the time and cost it will take
to make a 'make-do' welder, and you will find that for the basic power
source it is often better to buy a used quality machine.
Part 1.1
MIG.
MIG comes first since it is a different beast. Where TIG and 'stick' are
constant current welding forms and are to some extent cross-over systems,
MIG stands alone. Apart from multi-process inverter power sources, a MIG
power source is not interchangeable. MIG requires between 16 and 50 volts
at 50 to 800+ (ish) amps, but the amps is a product of the wire size and
the feed rate, as long as the transformer can deliver it. Volts is only
needed to be adjusted to achieve the arc energy relative to the feed rate.
Lower priced (chicom & cheaper Italian (usually)) MIGs can deliver the
amps, but struggle to hold the volts up, resulting in poor welds. It is
very difficult to 'roll your own' MIG, as it means winding a transformer to
suit. Not impossible, but better to build one from parts that are designed
to be MIG parts.
If you want to MIG on the cheap, buy some dead/faulty MIGs and build up a
machine. A customer has built up a machine using a small quality machine
that had a failed power transformer, used as a remote wirefeed. Another
machine was cannibalised to be the power source. An effective solution.
It would be possible to MIG in a similar way using batteries as the power
source. Never tried that, never expect to, although I have thought about
it. The issue that I see is that of lack of small voltage steps.
Part 1.2
TIG/'stick' power source.
Although there are various ways to 'lash-up' a power source, they ideally
should be designed to be constant current. This is also difficult to
achieve, but not impossibe. 'Lash-up' means include 72V battery charger
transformer with big light dimmer, hacked microwave transformers, etc. But
by far the best is.... a secondhand 'real' welder power source. This could
be a choke-transformer welder or the 'guts' from a TIG that has other faults.
Part 1.3
Controlling your home-made stuff.
If you have the skills to wire up an electric vehicle, you will have most
of the skills to wire up control of welding gear. MIG needs a (usually) DC
wire feed motor variable control that when you let go of the trigger will
brake (short the motor) immediately, a competent electronics enthusiast can
build this. A timing control that controls the power source and the gas
valve, and away you go. So a dead MIG with a good transformer can be
refitted, but varies depending on the situation.
Stick is usually 'hot' all the time, no control needed.
DC TIG with scratch start also needs no control.
TIG needs gas control - which can be a manual valve on the torch or a
solenoid valve.
DC TIG with high-frequency start needs means to turn off the high frequency
once the arc is established. A foot pedal or a switch on the torch
connected to a relay for the HF unit is all that is needed to get a start.
Nice TIG control has pre and post gas timing, automatic HF cutoff once arc
starts (for DC). Note that HF units generate a huge amount of electrical
noise, so any control electronics needs lots of filtering and bypassing.
It is possible to use high DC voltage to help start a DC TIG, if the
rectifier can handle it. Another customer 'hacked' his DC TIG machine and
has around 250VDC on a capacitor that is sitting across the output, but
through a resistor to the seperate isolation transformer and rectifier that
sources it. It makes DC TIG much easier to start, but is quite dangerous as
there is no way of knowing it is there (unlike HF which has a 'sizzle'
sound as warning). Control of this from a torch trigger would be much safer
than the way he has it, and would be closer to the "DC pulse" that some
manufacturers' use to start square-wave AC machines with no HF unit.
More to follow, opening discussion of DC converters and HF units, but I
need to get back to work now.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone for the responses and links! The info will no doubt head
me in the right direction.
My transmission requirements are different. I am going to use the Hundai
automatic transmission that is standard in my 95 (GM)Saab, but am going to
have the torque converter split on a lathe and the turbine welded in place
so it basically acts like a flywheel and turns the hydraulic pump. This way
my losses using the transmission are very low and I don't have to make any
radical changes by trying to find a 5 speed transaxle and convert it over.
My hub will be attached to the starter ring that attached to the original
engine. I should have the old engine (v6 that threw the timing belt) out
later this week. The car is pristine in every other aspect, is the size I
need and being a hatchback can handle a good battery pack without major
changes to the suspension. It is already equipped with powerful springs, 4
wheel disk brakes and sway bars, with no corrosion or rust even underneath.
I would describe it as a very "muscular" chassis.
As for the "automatic" operation of the transmission, I will not be using
the drive mode because it would attempt to shift at about 2000 rpms and I
will use it in 1 or 2 depending on requirements to keep the motor up to
efficient speed. I get pros and cons on using the automatic. I have spoken
to many who have used them for racing applications and they get great
results. I know there is a mentality in the EV world that it has to be MT
only, but I am determined to go a different direction in my project. I am
willing to sacrifice some range to have a really nice car. I turned down a
"free" Dodge Neon and Ford Taurus (both with MTs) . Most of my travels and
work are in a 5 mile radius and I can plug in at work if I really need to.
So I am willing to go for a 25-30 mile range which I believe I can get.
Mark Ward
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
How will you use the sprocket? There are taperlocks for ever size of
shaft. A local bearing house should carry everything you can imagine.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 10:24 AM
Subject: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
I am looking for the machine specifications (internal) for a taper lock
two piece type hub adapter. My transmission system will be unique and I
am going to have to get the hub machined locally to get the price within
reason and to avoid shipping my transaxle across country.
If anyone can provide me with the measurements or drawings (or a link to)
for the hub using a ADC 9" type motor, I would greatly appreciate it! I
don't want to risk some other system that could potentially fail. I have
heard the "horror" stories of failures from setscrews, etc.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I recommend NASM (http://nasm.sourceforge.net/wakka.php?wakka=HomePage).
I've used both MASM and NASM, and really like the latter.
I have some PIC EV projects in the pipeline. I used the think I was
hard-core and would go with the PIC assembly. I'm hooked on C though
now. I'll be posting the PIC projects when I get to them. They might be
useful for some of the rest of you doing conversions.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am going to use the Hundai automatic transmission that
> is standard in my 95 (GM)Saab, but am going to have the
> torque converter split on a lathe and the turbine welded
> in place so it basically acts like a flywheel and turns
> the hydraulic pump.
Just curious, but why would you retain the heavy torque converter after
locking it up so that it cannot provide any torque multiplication?
Every torque converter I've ever seen drives the pump via the simple
tubular neck of the outer housing and has an internal spline that
engages the tranny input shaft (locking it to the 'turbine').
If I were doing this conversion I would either leave the torque
converter stock (since you've already stated that your range needs are
very modest and so the 10% greater losses aren't really an issue), or I
would split the torque converter and scavenge the splined hub from the
turbine and the neck that drives the pump and simply weld those together
and attach them directly to a taperlock hub. Envision it this way: cut
the neck out of the housing, perhaps leaving a 3-4" diameter 'flange' on
it, then weld the turbine to this, and cut it down to the diameter of
the flange. Simply center the flange on the hub and drill holes to
allow the two to be securely connected. Of course, you need to ensure
that this assembly is oil-tight, but now you have a nice small adapter
without the weight of the torque converter (easily 20-25lbs) plus the
weight of the 2-3 quarts of tranny fluid it holds, plus the weight of
the flex plate (that attaches the torque converter to the
crankshaft/motor).
I'm not doing this conversion, of course, but I still wonder why you
would choose an approach that retains such a massive component after
rendering it largely useless.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In racing vehicles they modify torque converters all the time, albeit for
ICE applications. My thoughts were that the torque converter would act as
a flywheel, would not be much heavier than a clutch/pressureplate combo and
would keep the vehicle from jerking when it was put in motion. It would
seem to me that the "clutchless" type of adapters might lurch or jerk in
their operation. I could be looking at it incorrectly, however. This is
based on what I am reading here and elsewhere. I need to spin the
transmission anyway at about 200 rpms to keep my power steering pump working
off the opposite end of the motor.
The stock converter is a lockup type with a "sport" mode on the shift lever.
Supposedly this improves performance. I suppose the switch could be forced
on at all times by rewiring it accordingly if the converter stays stock.
The electric motor of course isn't going to need any torque multiplication.
Regards,
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am going to use the Hundai automatic transmission that
is standard in my 95 (GM)Saab, but am going to have the
torque converter split on a lathe and the turbine welded
in place so it basically acts like a flywheel and turns
the hydraulic pump.
Just curious, but why would you retain the heavy torque converter after
locking it up so that it cannot provide any torque multiplication?
Every torque converter I've ever seen drives the pump via the simple
tubular neck of the outer housing and has an internal spline that
engages the tranny input shaft (locking it to the 'turbine').
If I were doing this conversion I would either leave the torque
converter stock (since you've already stated that your range needs are
very modest and so the 10% greater losses aren't really an issue), or I
would split the torque converter and scavenge the splined hub from the
turbine and the neck that drives the pump and simply weld those together
and attach them directly to a taperlock hub. Envision it this way: cut
the neck out of the housing, perhaps leaving a 3-4" diameter 'flange' on
it, then weld the turbine to this, and cut it down to the diameter of
the flange. Simply center the flange on the hub and drill holes to
allow the two to be securely connected. Of course, you need to ensure
that this assembly is oil-tight, but now you have a nice small adapter
without the weight of the torque converter (easily 20-25lbs) plus the
weight of the 2-3 quarts of tranny fluid it holds, plus the weight of
the flex plate (that attaches the torque converter to the
crankshaft/motor).
I'm not doing this conversion, of course, but I still wonder why you
would choose an approach that retains such a massive component after
rendering it largely useless.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hallo, electrifiers.
So I've spent a couple of weeks working with a Kubota L48 backhoe
front-loader. Nice little machine. It occurs to me that it would be
even nicer if it were quieter and didn't produce fumes.
As far as I can tell from running it, everything in the machine
runs off the hydraulics, including the drive system. So I would
think that in order to electrify it, I would only need to replace the
existing motor with an electric motor for hydraulic compression, and
enough batteries to keep the motor in power.
However, I have no experience in this area. I wired my house by
following the books carefully, and managed not to kill or hurt
anything, but that's about the extent of my electrical experience.
If I can find a similar machine with a shot engine, would this be
a pretty straightforward conversion?
-Speireag.
--
To keep your marriage brimming,
With love in the loving cup,
Whenever you're wrong, admit it;
Whenever you're right, shut up.
-Ogden Nash, author (1902-1971)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If I am not interested in a particular Subject, I ignore.
>
> In the case of Welding, I have learned so much from others.
>
> I vote keep it.
>
>
> My $0.02
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of James Massey
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 11:37 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Welding on the cheap
.
> >Hi All;
I like the welding thread, too. It's time for me to move on from an old
buzz box stick welder to technology's better.
Seeya
Bob
> >Chris Seeley
>
> Can I have some indication of whether to continue this thread on-list,
> please? Although welding is relevant to EV builders, roll-your-own welding
> accessories are getting a bit off topic. If enough listees are interested,
> then I guess that'd be a statement of being on-topic still.
>
> Please don't tie up bandwidth to say "take it off list" as no responses
> will indicate that. If only two or three want to keep it on-list then I'll
> discuss homebrew welding accessories with them directly off-list. If more
> than that request to keep the thread going then that's what we'll do.
>
> So, do we keep this thread on-list?
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Oozing Motor?
> .
> >
> > I just had my ADC 9 apart and I had a little more trouble than you
> > mentioned. I needed a puller to
> > get the housing/bearing off the shaft, it was a VERY tight fit.
> Hi EVerybody;
Lucky you's MY bearing was sooo loose that I had to dimple the shaft to
snug it up so it wasn't loose. I hafta change thre bearings again, now, as
they are noisy again. Gotta get a better than stock japanesy ones I guess?
Seeya
Bob>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's cool and all. I wish them luck, but I was looking at some of
their other stuff and saw the Vectrix Scooter. Are these just vaporware
or can you buy one? It would be absolutely perfect for my daily commute
if it *REALLY* exists.
James
On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 21:26, Paul Wujek wrote:
> A high-powered electric motorcycle expected to go into production:
>
> http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/1458
>
> Gizmag article:
>
> http://www.gizmag.com/go/4105/
>
>
> The manufacturer's site:
>
> http://www.robrady.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF RALLY ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: EV Battery Chemistry for Dummies
Date: Saturday, June, 25, 2005
Time: 10 am to 12 noon
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church, meeting room
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
There's a lot of discussion these days about batteries - what types are
available and how can we use them. Many of the higher capacity batteries are
not yet available in the sizing needed for EV usage, although there might be
some creative ways to get there.
General Chemistries:
* PbA (Lead Acid - as Flooded, AGM and GEL).
* NiCd (Nickel Cadnium).
* NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydrid).
* Lith (Lithium - various forms).
We will explore EV related issues of:
* charging requirements.
* discharge performance.
* use of parallel vs series string arrangements.
* temperature controls.
* other issues.
As we progress forward, battery technology *is* improving, through the
continued development of computer and other technologies. The use of battery
packs in Hybrids contributes to the development of batteries worthy of EV usage.
Come join us for this exciting topic. There will also be Chapter member EVs on
display in the parking lot afterwards for further interaction. Even though the
automakers aren't currently producing EVs, there are electrics you can own and
drive today.
See you there.
http://www.ebeaa.org
Calendar of summer schedule:
June 25 Sat 10-12 Alameda
EV Battery Chemistry for Dummies - why so different?
July 4 Mon 9-12+ Alameda
Independence Day Parade (participation)
July 23 Sat 10-12 Alameda
EV Battery Space Layout for Dummies - how they fit
August 27 Sat 10-4 Hayward
Fall EV Rally - at Chabot College
Sept 24 Sat 10-4 Palo Alto
SVEAA EV Rally - participation at PA High School
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF RALLY ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: EV Battery Chemistry for Dummies
Date: Saturday, June, 25, 2005
Time: 10 am to 12 noon
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church, meeting room
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
There's a lot of discussion these days about batteries - what types are
available and how can we use them. Many of the higher capacity batteries are
not yet available in the sizing needed for EV usage, although there might be
some creative ways to get there.
General Chemistries:
* PbA (Lead Acid - as Flooded, AGM and GEL).
* NiCd (Nickel Cadmium).
* NiMH (Nickel Metal Hybrid).
* Lith (Lithium - various forms).
We will explore EV related issues of:
* charging requirements.
* discharge performance.
* use of parallel vs series string arrangements.
* temperature controls.
* other issues.
As we progress forward, battery technology *is* improving, through the
continued development of computer and other technologies. The use of battery
packs in Hybrids contributes to the development of batteries worthy of EV usage.
Come join us for this exciting topic. There will also be Chapter member EVs on
display in the parking lot afterwards for further interaction. Even though the
automakers aren't currently producing EVs, there are electrics you can own and
drive today.
See you there.
http://www.ebeaa.org
Calendar of summer schedule:
June 25 Sat 10-12 Alameda
EV Battery Chemistry for Dummies - why so different?
July 4 Mon 9-12+ Alameda
Independence Day Parade (participation)
July 23 Sat 10-12 Alameda
EV Battery Space Layout for Dummies - how they fit
August 27 Sat 10-4 Hayward
Fall EV Rally - at Chabot College
Sept 24 Sat 10-4 Palo Alto
SVEAA EV Rally - participation at PA High School
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Hello Speireag and All,
First...welcome, Speireag! Nice to see you've joined the EVDL.
Speireag Alden wrote:
> Hallo, electrifiers.
>
> So I've spent a couple of weeks working with a Kubota L48 backhoe
> front-loader. Nice little machine. It occurs to me that it would be
> even nicer if it were quieter and didn't produce fumes.
Amen!
>
> As far as I can tell from running it, everything in the machine
> runs off the hydraulics, including the drive system. So I would
> think that in order to electrify it, I would only need to replace the
> existing motor with an electric motor for hydraulic compression, and
> enough batteries to keep the motor in power.
Yup, just like an electric forklift. Electric pump motors do a terrific job of
running
hydraulics, far better in my opinion, than do ICE's that are loud, vibrate like
crazy, and
need to be revved up for any power delivery as they belch fumes everywhere.
>
> If I can find a similar machine with a shot engine, would this be
> a pretty straightforward conversion?
>
It all depends on how much space and weight bearing capacity areas it has for
batteries,
and, how long you need it to run.
Digging deep into dirt, lifting and scooping heavy material, etc., all takes a
lot of
energy. In our EVs powered by affordable lead acid batteries, energy is
something we try
to make the most efficient use of so as to get reasonable range performance out
of them.
Industrial electric forklifts can work an 8 hour shift at very high power
loads, because
they have very BIG batteries, from 1600 lbs. (that's a little one) to 4000
lbs., with a
3000 lb. battery pretty much an average size. In a forklift, extreme battery
weight works
out to be an advantage in that it serves to counter balance the truck so it can
lift heavy
mast loads.
In a backhoe, weight would seem to be a disadvantage, as you don't want it
sinking down
into soft mud and dirt, making deep ruts, etc., right? Sooooo....if you keep
battery
weight down to where the machine isn't any heavier (or at least not too much
heavier), you
then limit the run time of the machine. Keep in mind, that an electric motor
being pulled
down hard driving a hydraulic pump, sucks BIG amps, just as an ICE uses lots of
fuel doing
the same.
Other than the amount of stored energy vs the weight and mass a large battery
pack would
bring to the party, an electric backhoe is very doable and would probably
outperform its
gas or diesel counterpart while making no exhaust stench and far less noise.
Soooooo...what kind of run time to you expect? How much weight, after removal
of all the
heavy ICE stuff, can your machine accept in batteries? If you decide to go this
way, I
very often, come across good condition pump motors with attached hydraulic
pumps and can
get them for free out of trucks being scrapped out. If you decide to go this
way, and, you
have a Portland, OR connection to do the labor, I could arrange for a
pumpendectomy on a
discarded machine, if that would help you out.
See Ya.......John Wayland
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Welding on the cheap for an EVer?
Use 3 12 Volt batteries that you already own and a welding rod.
Nothing comes that cheap!
Has anyone ever used a bare rod and some shielding gas as a MIG stick
welder?
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 11:47 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Welding on the cheap, part 1
Hi All
Enough people wrote something like:
>I'd vote for keeping the welding thread, virtually every EV has been
>welded or needs welding.
I am not an expert on welding, others will be far better experienced than I
am there. I have been fixing welding equipment for nearly 20 years, have
done some training on welding and on welding equipment. As such I can
contribute to the technical aspects of welding equipment. The part 1 that I
have added to the thread subject if for the following reason: I propose
that discussions of 'roll your own' DC converter and high frequency units
come as parts 2 and 3 of discussion.
There has already been a lot of discussion on welding processes, there is a
good level of information freely available on the web from manufacturers.
As such I feel a brief comment on processes with technical comments about
each will be enough from me, but a greater contribution will come in parts
2 and 3.
I will say at the outset, the most effective way of welding is a 'real'
welder from a quality manufacturer. Look at the time and cost it will take
to make a 'make-do' welder, and you will find that for the basic power
source it is often better to buy a used quality machine.
Part 1.1
MIG.
MIG comes first since it is a different beast. Where TIG and 'stick' are
constant current welding forms and are to some extent cross-over systems,
MIG stands alone. Apart from multi-process inverter power sources, a MIG
power source is not interchangeable. MIG requires between 16 and 50 volts
at 50 to 800+ (ish) amps, but the amps is a product of the wire size and
the feed rate, as long as the transformer can deliver it. Volts is only
needed to be adjusted to achieve the arc energy relative to the feed rate.
Lower priced (chicom & cheaper Italian (usually)) MIGs can deliver the
amps, but struggle to hold the volts up, resulting in poor welds. It is
very difficult to 'roll your own' MIG, as it means winding a transformer to
suit. Not impossible, but better to build one from parts that are designed
to be MIG parts.
If you want to MIG on the cheap, buy some dead/faulty MIGs and build up a
machine. A customer has built up a machine using a small quality machine
that had a failed power transformer, used as a remote wirefeed. Another
machine was cannibalised to be the power source. An effective solution.
It would be possible to MIG in a similar way using batteries as the power
source. Never tried that, never expect to, although I have thought about
it. The issue that I see is that of lack of small voltage steps.
Part 1.2
TIG/'stick' power source.
Although there are various ways to 'lash-up' a power source, they ideally
should be designed to be constant current. This is also difficult to
achieve, but not impossibe. 'Lash-up' means include 72V battery charger
transformer with big light dimmer, hacked microwave transformers, etc. But
by far the best is.... a secondhand 'real' welder power source. This could
be a choke-transformer welder or the 'guts' from a TIG that has other
faults.
Part 1.3
Controlling your home-made stuff.
If you have the skills to wire up an electric vehicle, you will have most
of the skills to wire up control of welding gear. MIG needs a (usually) DC
wire feed motor variable control that when you let go of the trigger will
brake (short the motor) immediately, a competent electronics enthusiast can
build this. A timing control that controls the power source and the gas
valve, and away you go. So a dead MIG with a good transformer can be
refitted, but varies depending on the situation.
Stick is usually 'hot' all the time, no control needed.
DC TIG with scratch start also needs no control.
TIG needs gas control - which can be a manual valve on the torch or a
solenoid valve.
DC TIG with high-frequency start needs means to turn off the high frequency
once the arc is established. A foot pedal or a switch on the torch
connected to a relay for the HF unit is all that is needed to get a start.
Nice TIG control has pre and post gas timing, automatic HF cutoff once arc
starts (for DC). Note that HF units generate a huge amount of electrical
noise, so any control electronics needs lots of filtering and bypassing.
It is possible to use high DC voltage to help start a DC TIG, if the
rectifier can handle it. Another customer 'hacked' his DC TIG machine and
has around 250VDC on a capacitor that is sitting across the output, but
through a resistor to the seperate isolation transformer and rectifier that
sources it. It makes DC TIG much easier to start, but is quite dangerous as
there is no way of knowing it is there (unlike HF which has a 'sizzle'
sound as warning). Control of this from a torch trigger would be much safer
than the way he has it, and would be closer to the "DC pulse" that some
manufacturers' use to start square-wave AC machines with no HF unit.
More to follow, opening discussion of DC converters and HF units, but I
need to get back to work now.
James
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Hello to All,
Roy LeMeur wrote:
> Howdy Folks
>
> I haven't seen this EVent mentioned on the EVDL yet.
>
> The Seattle Electric Vehicle Association (http://www.seattleeva.org/) has
> gathered together a great group of EVs to carry the EV flag at the Greenwood
> Car Show (http://www.greenwood-phinney.com/pages/special_events/carshow.asp)
> in N. Seattle on 6/25/05.
>
> People tell me that this is the largest and best attended car show in the
> Northwest.
>
>
This year, I sadly missed both the VEVA Candain EV show and my beloved NW
Datsun Owners
giant west coast picnic-show & shine held right near my Portland location :-(
The three
day, 700 mile round trip to the Canadian show would have consumed a good junk
of my EV
racing budget money in car hauling fuel costs, lodging, and food expenses,
plus, that
weekend was used to work day and night in the metal shop, the Dutchman machine
shop, and
in my backyard EV shop building racing motors, brackets, etc. I really, really
missed
going to the see my Canadian friends this year, but, feel I made the right
decision to
advance the racing schedule here, and the money saved will go towards a Detroit
locker for
Purple Phaze :-)
The much closer Seattle car show, however, is doable. The big crunch over
machine shop
stuff for the Siamese 8 motor has wound down, and Jim is still doing work on
the Siamese 8
motor, so we can use up the weekend having a little 'show fun'. My wife's
sister and her
husband live in the Seattle area and take us in as wandering show goers, so it
makes it
easy for us, and more relaxing for my wife, to return to visit our Seattle EV
friends.
This year, we are taking Blue Meanie to this great car show. Last year, White
Zombie
turned a few heads and the EV race videos won over many gear heads.
If you live within striking distance of Seattle, stop by and check out the SEVA
group's
great collection of EVs, and, join us for a day of fun. This car show is HUGE!
See Ya......John Wayland
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Are you sure you don't already have a lockup torque converter? If so
you might not have much efficiency penalty, you'd take off faster,
you could idle the motor, and have smoother shifts. You should be
able to fool the vacuum or some other sensor so the car always shifts
at high rpm.
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the responses and links! The info will no
> doubt head
> me in the right direction.
>
> My transmission requirements are different. I am going to use the
> Hundai
> automatic transmission that is standard in my 95 (GM)Saab, but am
> going to
> have the torque converter split on a lathe and the turbine welded
> in place
> so it basically acts like a flywheel and turns the hydraulic pump.
> This way
> my losses using the transmission are very low and I don't have to
> make any
> radical changes by trying to find a 5 speed transaxle and convert
> it over.
> My hub will be attached to the starter ring that attached to the
> original
> engine. I should have the old engine (v6 that threw the timing
> belt) out
> later this week. The car is pristine in every other aspect, is
> the size I
> need and being a hatchback can handle a good battery pack without
> major
> changes to the suspension. It is already equipped with powerful
> springs, 4
> wheel disk brakes and sway bars, with no corrosion or rust even
> underneath.
> I would describe it as a very "muscular" chassis.
>
> As for the "automatic" operation of the transmission, I will not be
> using
> the drive mode because it would attempt to shift at about 2000
> rpms and I
> will use it in 1 or 2 depending on requirements to keep the motor
> up to
> efficient speed. I get pros and cons on using the automatic. I
> have spoken
> to many who have used them for racing applications and they get
> great
> results. I know there is a mentality in the EV world that it has
> to be MT
> only, but I am determined to go a different direction in my
> project. I am
> willing to sacrifice some range to have a really nice car. I turned
> down a
> "free" Dodge Neon and Ford Taurus (both with MTs) . Most of my
> travels and
> work are in a 5 mile radius and I can plug in at work if I really
> need to.
> So I am willing to go for a 25-30 mile range which I believe I can
> get.
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Do the math. 22 bucks for roughly two 2 ah 12v batteries. I can get 10.5
ah batteries in SLA for 20 bucks each. So for the AH not a bargain. But
for weight savings I wouldn't know. Need to know the single cell weight and
can go from there. I'd cost hundreds to get a bigger pack ah. Not sure it
is worth it. LR......Real good for flashlights though.................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: cheap NIMH AA's
Could you string/parallel together enough of these to make a scooter?
They're durned cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001FZCQQ/ref%3Dnosim/bensbargaicenter/103-7496192-8191039
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