EV Digest 4450
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Backhoe Front-loader conversions
by Speireag Alden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New bat pack break-in
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: cheap NIMH AA's
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Backhoe Front-loader conversions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Oozing Motor?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fast charging and battery revival. Does it work?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Possible donor cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Gasless on Greenwood 6/25/05
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: cheap NIMH AA's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Honeycomb Aluminum Composites
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Oozing Motor?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Fwd: Re: Oozing Motor?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) BEST race day video
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Welding on the cheap, part 2, DC
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fwd: Re: Oozing Motor?
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Motor Idea. ( Hybrid PM DC/AC )
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) More Motor Ideas. ( Hybrid PM DC/AC )
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sgrìobh John Wayland:
First...welcome, Speireag!
Thank you!
It all depends on how much space and weight bearing capacity areas
it has for batteries, and, how long you need it to run.
I'm guessing very roughly that the engine compartment would have
about 50 cubic feet. I don't know how much of that is taken up with
hydraulics, but I hazard a guess that it's not much.
In a backhoe, weight would seem to be a disadvantage, as you don't
want it sinking down into soft mud and dirt, making deep ruts, etc.,
right?
Not actually, no. I suppose there would be an upper limit which
would be too high, but I suspect that you'd run out of volume for the
batteries first. You want lots of weight, and low down, for
stability when you're digging at maximum extension with the backhoe.
Also you use the weight of the machine to drive back and forth over
loose material in order to pack it down. I don't think it would be a
problem to add a fair amount of weight.
Soooooo...what kind of run time to you expect?
It would really be best to get two hours. More would be nice,
but that's probably a fairly workable minimum. That would enable me
to plow a couple of driveways (I'm in rural NH), or move garden
materials before I have to get down and do ground work.
How much weight, after removal of all the heavy ICE stuff, can your
machine accept in batteries?
I'm not sure. I'll have to research it. I suspect that the
frame is tougher than it needs to be just to support the weight of
the engine, in order to deal with the torque from uneven ground and
the occasional shocks, like running into a buried rock when you're
going along with the blade down.
If you decide to go this way, I very often, come across good
condition pump motors with attached hydraulic pumps and can get them
for free out of trucks being scrapped out. If you decide to go this
way, and, you have a Portland, OR connection to do the labor, I
could arrange for a pumpendectomy on a discarded machine, if that
would help you out.
That would be great! I'll bear it in mind. I don't know anyone
in Portland, I'm afraid, though. What would be a fair price for such
work, and roughly what would cross-country shipping cost? If it's
prohibitive, perhaps instead you could tell me where I might discover
such pumps myself, out here?
-Speireag.
--
To keep your marriage brimming,
With love in the loving cup,
Whenever you're wrong, admit it;
Whenever you're right, shut up.
-Ogden Nash, author (1902-1971)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have a friend that just got a new battery pack, 24 T-125's, we're going to
put them in today. He bought a conversion from the EV list, a Ram -50 with a 9"
ADC, Auburn C600 controller, K&W BC-20 charger, Sevcon DC-DC. Batteries were
very dead...
How should the pack be broken in?
What should the charger be set at?
Any other helpful info about the components would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LR,
Some corrections on your math. For Nimh, 2 Ah is 2 Ah
even at 1C or 2C rate. Your 10.5 Ah SLA would be
about 4 - 6 Ah at 1C rate and worse at 2C
The AA Nimh batteries mentioned here would roughly
equal to a 4 Ah 12V battery in capacity. So, even for
Ah, it is not a bad deal.
The problem is how to use these in parallel.
Ed Ang
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do the math. 22 bucks for roughly two 2 ah 12v
> batteries. I can get 10.5
> ah batteries in SLA for 20 bucks each. So for the
> AH not a bargain. But
> for weight savings I wouldn't know. Need to know
> the single cell weight and
> can go from there. I'd cost hundreds to get a
> bigger pack ah. Not sure it
> is worth it. LR......Real good for flashlights
> though.................
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 7:22 AM
> Subject: cheap NIMH AA's
>
>
> > Could you string/parallel together enough of these
> to make a scooter?
> > They're durned cheap.
> >
> >
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001FZCQQ/ref%3Dnosim/bensbargaicenter/103-7496192-8191039
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
Hello Speireag and All,
First...welcome, Speireag! Nice to see you've joined the EVDL.
Speireag Alden wrote:
Hallo, electrifiers.
So I've spent a couple of weeks working with a Kubota L48 backhoe
front-loader. Nice little machine. It occurs to me that it would be
even nicer if it were quieter and didn't produce fumes.
If you usually work on it around one spot, would it make sense to
make it corded (from overhead somewhere) and plug in 240VAC grid?
Use small(ish) batteries to drive it around to/from work
but the grid power to do actual work - after all back hoe
digs for long hours without moving anywhere...
Just a thought how I'd consider doing it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Lucky you's MY bearing was sooo loose that I had to
> dimple the shaft to snug it up so it wasn't loose. I hafta
> change thre bearings again, now, as they are noisy again.
> Gotta get a better than stock japanesy ones I guess?
Nothing wrong with Japanese bearings, Bob; it's the Chinese ones you
need to worry about.
If your bearing was loose on the shaft, the problem is that your shaft
is worn down and must be spray welded back up and then turned down to
the proper diameter for a press fit into the bearing. You've probably
got an out of balance flywheel/adapter/etc. that is hammering the drive
end bearing and causing it to fail prematurely. Fix the cause and the
bearing will start lasting like it should.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is from the NEV list.
Furthermore, there is little interest in two recent breakthrough
processes developed in the last two years: Battery Revival (no need
to recycle batteries, just revive them) and the 15-Minute battery
charge. The reason I say this is that the eBay listings for these
didn't get any bidders. OK, so one individual bought the 15-minute
plans, but he left a Neutral feedback, suggesting that he didn't
even bother to build the device. Another big yawn from that buyer --
obviously he didn't need the technology.
Could be there is little trust in these devices. Unless there is a proven
technology nobody is going to buy a pig in a poke. I have yet to see any
device that will revive batteries. Now you can fast charge batteries but it
costs money. A 50 amp buck charger at 48v on 4 12v batteries. 15 minutes.
No problem. Costs 3000 dollars. You going to cough it up? Pulse charging
is supposed to revive batteries. I know some that are building them.
Nobody has commented yet. I just don't know. But I'd like to find out.
Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4557267153&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4557132050&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4557490834&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4557505311&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4557306550&rd=1
this one is a little pricy but beautiful. Might be a bit heavy.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4555852921&rd=1
I've never seen an electric boat car. Maybe this could be the first.
http://www.craigslist.org/nby/car/79979463.html Is a Studebaker Lark too
heavy to convert?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My thoughts were that the torque converter would act as
> a flywheel, would not be much heavier than a
> clutch/pressureplate combo and would keep the vehicle
> from jerking when it was put in motion.
Nope. First, you don't need a flywheel on an electric motor because
there are no torque pulses to smooth out. Second, once you lock the
turbine (input shaft) to the housing (pump drive), you can't spin the
pump to build fluid pressure to apply the clutches without also spinning
the input shaft. Therefore, you cannot idle the motor to keep fluid
pressure built up and when you do start spinning the motor it will take
a second or two to build enough pressure to engage the clutches and so
the only jerking would be if the pressure builds quickly enough for the
clutches to engage abruptly.
> I need to spin the transmission anyway at about 200 rpms
> to keep my power steering pump working off the opposite
> end of the motor.
Then you must keep the torque converter stock. If you lock the turbine
to the converter housing, then anytime the motor spins, fluid pressure
builds in the tranny and engages the clutches and the input shaft is
spinning, so the car will try to creep. The only 'give' in the system
to allow the motor to spin without the vehicle moving is if the clutches
in the tranny slip (which would happen if the fluid pressure is low
enough), and you will wear them out in short order if this happens.
> The stock converter is a lockup type with a "sport" mode on
> the shift lever. Supposedly this improves performance. I
> suppose the switch could be forced on at all times by
> rewiring it accordingly if the converter stays stock.
'Sport' mode would disable the lockup while 'normal' allows it to
engage, however, when it engages would be controlled by logic other than
the button on the shifter. It may or may not engage when you are
driving in 1 or 2 (on many trannies the lockup feature is only enabled
when the shifter is in OD, or perhaps D if your tranny lacks the OD
selection).
You might rewire the switch so that it can directly control the lockup
feature rather than simply enabling and disabling it, however, beware
that the lockup feature is a clutch inside the torque converter and that
you will have to unlock it to allow the motor to idle with the vehicle
stopped, and that the more frequently you force the clutch to
lock/unlock, especially under load, the shorter its life will be.
Lockup torque converters are expensive.
> The electric motor of course isn't going to need any torque
> multiplication.
I wouldn't bet on that. If you are running a 'Zilla, you probably can
get reasonable performance with a locked converter, but you will get
better performance and stress the motor less by retaining the torque
multiplication.
Also, retaining a functional torque converter helps "idiot proof" the
conversion. One of the sure and easy ways to injure or murder a DC
motor is to operate it in a locked rotor condition, such as holding the
car on a hill by applying a bit of throttle. Problem is that the motor
isn't spinning and a "bit" of throttle can mean huge motor amps going
through a single set of comm bars. Even if the comm bars and brushes
survive, the material retaining them can get hot enough to soften such
that one or more bars lifts when the motor revs up while still hot.
Retain a functional torque converter and this issue disappears since the
motor can spin even while the vehicle is stationary.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If you live within striking distance of Seattle, stop by and check out the
SEVA group's
> great collection of EVs, and, join us for a day of fun. This car show is
HUGE!
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
I have Gone Postal in my shop at Manzanita Micro.... and I did get the front
drive to work last night before I quit for the night.
So Gp will be there, I can't make it all day... I have guests and a Wedding
Shower for my daughter on Saturday.
Read.... I gotta play Daddy, and stay domestic.
But.. Gp will be semi functional. Read back drives in operation.
The Front drive sounds like it's full of Rocks...even in neutral... So...
That won't be much help.
All the cross over bars in the reverser contactor... are purple...Don't give
Rod no Bull shit about making amps!
It's just that I don't like melting expensive parts doing it. Rod... that
reverser is sucking up about 50 Hp from the front motor... GET RID OF IT!.
Yes I am telling him how to break the tranny ...even faster next time....
The actual who's towing it and who's going to drive it from the un load area
to the show is still un known.
I bet it's me... but somebody else will need to drive her back to the Load
and Unload park.
There's only a few folks that dare drive Gp....
So I have a really big distraction in my shop and I need to build
chargers.... And it's pouring ... so Goldie and my Yale fork truck are in
the rain.....
Oh have I mentioned that I have a charger that made 400 amps last
night??.....LOTs of glowing steel load banks....It's been a good week on the
R& D side of things.
Gonna be a interesting week and weekend.
Madman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You should be
> able to fool the vacuum or some other sensor so the car always shifts
> at high rpm.
>
In general, an automatic transmission shifts based on load and speed. As the
speed increases the
transmission will want to upshift. As load increases the transmission will want
to downshift. It's
just a constant juggling act between the two. Load used to be monitored using
manifold vacuum or a
mechanical connection to the throttle linkage. As cars have gotten more
complicated some of this
has been replaced by electronics. Add in polution and performance controls and
the whole process
can be pretty complicated. When I worked at a Detroit Diesel/Allison dealership
life was very
simple. Mechanical linkage for load and centrifically actuated valve for speed.
If you are lucky you can hook up a mechanical linkage to your throttle and then
just adjust it as
you see fit. You could probably retrofit a vacuum system to work with a
mechanical linkage. This
will allow the transmission to do what it knows best and you just adjust it to
the shift range you
need.
Dave Cover
PS Beware of the fluid routing if you modify the torque converter. The fluid
provides lubrication
for a the bearings and other moving parts, don't starve anything. You will
definitely need to keep
the motor turning when you are stopped at a light.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> Some corrections on your math. For Nimh, 2 Ah is 2 Ah even at 1C
> or 2C rate. Your 10.5 Ah SLA would be about 4-6 Ah at 1C rate
> and worse at 2C.
>
> The AA Nimh batteries mentioned here would roughly equal a 4 Ah
> 12V battery in capacity. So, even for Ah, it is not a bad deal.
But Ah isn't the whole story. You need to look at the *energy* you can
get out of each battery at the intended rate. There is a significant
voltage sag for both. Depending on the specific batteries being
compared, the lead-acid could have less or more voltage sag than the
nimh.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Cover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: June 22, 2005 10:59 AM
> To: EVList
> Subject: Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
>
>
> --- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You should be
> > able to fool the vacuum or some other sensor so the car
> always shifts
> > at high rpm.
> >
>
> In general, an automatic transmission shifts based on load
> and speed. As the speed increases the transmission will want
> to upshift. As load increases the transmission will want to
> downshift. It's just a constant juggling act between the two.
> Load used to be monitored using manifold vacuum or a
> mechanical connection to the throttle linkage. As cars have
> gotten more complicated some of this has been replaced by
> electronics. Add in polution and performance controls and the
> whole process can be pretty complicated. When I worked at a
> Detroit Diesel/Allison dealership life was very simple.
> Mechanical linkage for load and centrifically actuated valve
> for speed.
Yep; things used to be nice and simple; manifold vacuum for load, a
mechanical linkage from the throttle for kick down (passing gear), and a
govenor (centrifically actuated valve) driven off the output shaft for
speed sensing.
> If you are lucky you can hook up a mechanical linkage to your
> throttle and then just adjust it as you see fit. You could
> probably retrofit a vacuum system to work with a mechanical
> linkage. This will allow the transmission to do what it knows
> best and you just adjust it to the shift range you need.
With an older, mechanically controlled tranny, the better bet is
probably to simply install a full manual shift kit and drive it as a
"clutchless" manual tranny. Check with places like Transgo
<http://www.transgo.com/> for shift kits and performance tranny parts.
However, with electronically controlled trannies things are still
simple, just more costly. Aftermarket control boxes are available that
allow complete manual control over the tranny; some can even be
programmed to provide completely custom automatic control.
<http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html> offers such a
programmable box, and though they don't presently seem to support the
Hyundai/Saab tranny, they are willing to develop support for any tranny
provided a customer has the factory service manual so they can provide
the required wiring and control info. This control box isn't cheap
($700), but if using it eliminated the need to cut open/modify/weld
up/balance/etc. the torque converter a bunch of the cost would be
offset.
For someone only interested in using a Ford tranny,
<http://www.baumannengineering.com/elect.htm> offers a control box for
just $425.
I'm sure there are others out there, as I recall seeing them advertised
in the ATRA (Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association
<http://www.atra-gears.com/>) trade magazine, "Gears"
<http://www.gearsmagazine.com/>. You can look at the latest issue of
Gears online (.pdf) and check for ads from tranny control manufacturers.
Also, if your car happens to be one for which you can get a performance
chip to modify the ECU program, then there is a good chance that you can
have the supplier program you a chip that will modify the tranny shift
behaviour for you as these chips often modify both the engine control
behaviour and tranny control. If you can't find a performance chip
supplier willing to work with you, contact Bernie at
<http://www.brpowersource.ca/> and tell him I sent you ;^>
> PS Beware of the fluid routing if you modify the torque
> converter. The fluid provides lubrication for a the bearings
> and other moving parts, don't starve anything. You will
> definitely need to keep the motor turning when you are
> stopped at a light.
The fluid routing issue is a good thing to keep in mind, but I don't
believe there is any need to keep the motor turning when stopped. When
stopped, there are no moving parts in the tranny to require lubrication,
so stopping the motor is fine. The only issue is that with the motor
stopped fluid pressure will dissipate and the motor will have to spin a
bit to rebuild pressure before the car will move when you step on the
throttle again. This may introduce an unacceptable delay on takeoff
and/or may cause a bit of a jerk if the pressure builds quickly and the
clutches engage abruptly (this shouldn't be an issue if the torque
converter is retained, but could occur if the tranny input shaft and
pump drive are locked together).
If you retain the stock torque converter and idle the motor, do *NOT*
use a Curtis 'C' (whiner) controller! When idling, the controller will
whine continuously...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody worked with aluminum or composite honeycomb panels? I am curious as
to what kind of panels are used in automobile or boat applications and of their
cost.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
A big thanks to all that participated in this post... you've taught me a
lot about my motor!
After looking online at several places and locally, I decided to buy
from a local industrial distributor. They sold both SKF and Koyo
bearings, but I ended up buying the Koyo bearings because they were
about half the cost of comparable SKF bearings. It ended up being $19
for the main bearing (6207-2RDC3) and $15 for the comm-end bearing
(6305-2RDC3).
I still haven't been able to get the end bell + bearing off the motor
shaft, but now that I've read your suggestions, I'll pull the whole
armature out tonight and give it another shot, then let you all know how
it went ;-)
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
--- "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anybody worked with aluminum or composite
> honeycomb panels? I am curious as
> to what kind of panels are used in automobile or
> boat applications and of their
> cost.
I have but rarely, only if someone else is paying
for it ;-)
Living near Seattle you should have aircraft
surplus yards you may be able to get slightly
defective or other fairly cheap. But new they are
$200-$500/4'x8' sheet. More if carbon fiber.
One can make their own with foam core fairly well
priced as I'll do the the Freedom EV. Not sure of any
American car using them. Only exotic sportscars would
for labor reasons and even few of them.
Some kit cars like the Valkrie use cores but few
use honeycomb as hard to make really lightweight as
the holes fill up if not done on a flat mold 1 side
down at a time. Prepeg composites help this for more
money.
Do you have an app in mind or just thinking? I've
built them from small hatch covers to 81' yachts from
it.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I still haven't been able to get the end bell + bearing off the motor
> shaft, but now that I've read your suggestions, I'll pull the whole
> armature out tonight and give it another shot, then let you all know how
> it went ;-)
>
I used a 2 jaw gear puller that just barely fit. I was just able to get the
jaws to catch the edge
of the housing. Be careful of whatever means you use, because the aluminum
housing will take the
brunt of the force. If you could drill a heavy steel plate with four holes to
match the mount
holes, you could make a nice simple puller. It would distribute the force
across the whole
housing.
When I used to pull really tight pulleys off of large diesels, one technique
worked pretty good.
We would tighten up the puller as tight as possible (to the point of almost
bending wrenches.) If
the pulley wouldn't come off, a good rap on the end of the puller with a 16 oz.
hammer, inline
with the shaft, ussually shocked it loose. You have to be pretty deliberate,
but not abusive.
Good luck
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Lawrence Tech used aluminum honeycomb panels in their ground-up hybrid at
the 1994 HEV Challenge in Southfield, Michigan. I think they placed second
in their class that year. I don't know what information might still be on
the web about that event. One source might be an SAE paper. A lot of the
schools, including mine (Maryland) had their technical presentations
published.
Good luck with the search,
Matt Graham
Nissan 240SX, 2XWarP 9/Z2K
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron (New Beetle EV) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites
Has anybody worked with aluminum or composite honeycomb panels? I am
curious as
to what kind of panels are used in automobile or boat applications and of
their
cost.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to everyone for the great info! I realize I am going to have to
throw some ideas out the door when dealing with an EV.
Yep; things used to be nice and simple; manifold vacuum for load, a
mechanical linkage from the throttle for kick down (passing gear), and a
govenor (centrifically actuated valve) driven off the output shaft for
speed sensing.
I am willing to accept the inefficiencies of leaving the converter alone
and go for modifying the behavior, etc. I see two sensors on the
transmission and what appears to be a vacuum line (was disconnected when
the top half of the engine was pulled. I will know more about all of this
when my Saab shop cd set arrives. I am guessing one sensor is used possibly
for the speedometer.
However, with electronically controlled trannies things are still
simple, just more costly. Aftermarket control boxes are available that
allow complete manual control over the tranny; some can even be
programmed to provide completely custom automatic control.
I have left all computers intact in the car. There are at least 3 I have
found and they all appear to be working fine. The Saab does have a
performance chip, but it might require other signals from the ICE to
operate. As an EE I am not intimidated by the electronic/electrical
aspects of the project. The only "scary" area to me is the transmission
adapter. The rest seems easy enough, rather simple in fact. I have already
figured out how to shut down some of the now useless warning lights with
resistors, etc.
If you retain the stock torque converter and idle the motor, do *NOT*
use a Curtis 'C' (whiner) controller! When idling, the controller will
whine continuously...
Cheers,
Roger.
I have heard this regarding the Curtis Controllers. I am pretty much set on
a Zilla 1K and don't like the fact there are so many "rebuilt" Curtis
controllers around. They also don't have liquid cooling (I am leaving the
radiator in my car for this and the transmission)Getting heat away from the
FETS is a priority and Curtis doesn't seem to concerned about heatsinking
like some of the other manufacturers do. They let the heat collect in the
top of the controller case for some reason. Curtis lacks the RPM output I
need to make my tachometer work again. NO WAY am I driving without knowing
my motor speed! It looks to me like the largest Curtis is marginal for my
144 volt system anyway.
Regards,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello race fans! BEST (Bridging Engineering Science and Teaching) held
its 9th annual electric car races for 4th-6th grade future engineers on
May 26, 2005.
This year's event was filmed by our crack team of student journalists.
The full documentary runs an hour, but they edited it down to produce
this 3.5 minute mp4 video "movie trailer" at:
http://www.tcinternet.net/users/scottcl/movies_dir/BEST2005Trailer.asp
Scott Likely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, the team's mentor writes:
"The footage was shot by me and a student. While it is mostly about the
Webster Open School students, all cars appear in it, however briefly. It
will play in Quicktime or Realplayer. The file size is 10 MB."
"The 'number one' references are for dramatic effect, and a
tongue-in-cheek reference to our randomly-assigned team number. Our
students joked that they were number one no matter how they did. In the
end they didn't care, they just enjoyed being there and having fun."
Enjoy!
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am pretty much set on a Zilla 1K and don't like the fact
> there are so many "rebuilt" Curtis controllers around.
I wouldn't think the number of rebuilt Curtii should be a concern. It
probably reflects the reality that there are orders of magnitude more
Curtii in the field than DCP, Auburn, and Zilla controllers.
> They also don't have liquid cooling (I am leaving the
> radiator in my car for this and the transmission)
No need to do this; way too much weight and volume! For the tranny,
just get an aftermarket tranny cooler and plumb it into the two steel
lines that presently connect to the little cooler built into the stock
rad. For the Zilla, just get a heater core (or even just another tranny
cooler). You might even get tricky and simply plumb the tranny fluid so
it flows through the tranny cooler and then through the Zilla on its way
back to the tranny (so the Zilla sees the coolest fluid). This
eliminates an entire fluid (rad coolant) from the vehicle and the
fluid-fluid-air exchange that the stock system requires to dissipate the
heat from the tranny fluid and the whole corrosion issue with water
cooling. It also eliminates a dedicated pump for the Zilla cooling
loop, along with an inverter if you choose to go what appears to be the
popular route using a submersible aquarium pump; not sure why more
people don't use readily available submersible 12V bilge pumps
instead...
> Getting heat away from the FETS is a priority and Curtis
> doesn't seem to concerned about heatsinking like some of
> the other manufacturers do. They let the heat collect in the
> top of the controller case for some reason.
To be fair, it isn't so much Curtis that is at fault as it is the users.
The Curtis controller is designed to be attached to a heatsink surface
(either a real heatsink, or some massive piece of metal such as the
body/frame of a forklift, etc.). The heat does not collect in the top
of the case; the devices are attached to an internal heat spreader that
brings the heat out to the baseplate where it can be transferred to the
external heatsink. Many users are not aware that the Curtis needs an
external heatsink to achieve its rated output current and install it
with an undersized heatsink or no heatsink and then try to demand full
output for extended periods.
> Curtis lacks the RPM output I need to make my tachometer
> work again. NO WAY am I driving without knowing my motor
> speed!
As an EE, this should be a trivial detail your you to address. EV Parts
<http://www.evparts.com/> sells a slick magnet collar for the tail shaft
of your ADC and a matching hall-effect sensor that should allow you to
provide the factory tach with its desired 2-pulses per rev.
If you want to idiot-proof the conversion, add rev-limiting. Canadian
Electric Vehicles (<http://www.canev.com/>) uses and sells the ISSPRO
2-stage rev-limiter for use in conversions. I think EV Parts also
carries this device.
Of course, simply using a Zilla gets you rev-limiting and a tach output
signal for your factory tach, but you still have to install a sensor to
provide the Zilla with the motor speed signal.
> It looks to me like the largest Curtis is marginal for my
> 144 volt system anyway.
You will definitely be happier with a Zilla, but the Curtis would also
work.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Has anybody worked with aluminum or composite honeycomb panels? I am
> >curious as to what kind of panels are used in automobile or boat
> applications and >of their cost.
Not auto or boat.. but a nice pic of the stuff and some info:
http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/2004_02_15/bigParts.jpg
http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=245
More:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&as_qdr=all&biw=1259&q=honeycomb+site%3Aarmadilloaerospace.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
As BoyntonStu pointed out, nothing comes cheaper than three batteries and
some jump leads. But that leaves you with little control. Good for
emergency welding, but hard to do good work with (my Father used to wander
the Australian outback and did a fair bit of welding that way).
The best way to have a DC Stick/TIG is to buy one. The second best way is
to buy or build a DC converter to attach to a basic AC welder. This allows
DC stick welding (once you've used DC you probably won't go back to AC),
and DC TIG with scratch start.
All you need to make it happen is a bridge rectifier (4 diodes) that can
cope with the amps, and a big inductor to keep the amps going (after the
rectifier). The diodes need to be able to carry about 75% of the welder
output as a minimum (they only work 50% of the time, but that would be a
bit too close).
Using capacitors to smooth the welding DC is a bit of a balance, as they
increase the voltage. A pi filter of an inductor and two capacitors can
work well.
The inductor is usually the issue, not enough inductance and you can add
capacitors to help. Too much inductance can make it hard to start and get
massive arcs on each stop. The biggest issue with the inductor is getting
one with low enough DC resistance. I guess it is possible to wind your own
inductor onto a core from a microwave oven transformer. I don't have a DC
converter in the shop to measure the inductor, and the manufacturers' specs
don't show the values (naturally enough). An inductor from a dead MIG would
probably do.
I mentioned hot start in part 1, adding a bit of circuitry to up the output
volts to make the welder 'flash' the start of the arc. Very dangerous to
add to a stick welder (since you keep grabbing the electrode), probably
safest to not add it, but if you do, set up contol off a TIG torch switch
and add a noisemaker for when it is running. A MIG rectifier probably would
not have the voltage rating for hot start.
The case only needs to keep the mice out, and let the heat get away off the
rectifier. The rectifier may need to be fan cooled, depending on what it
came from (MIG rectifiers usually need fan cooling).
Notice MIG parts get mentions? the rectifier, fan and the inductor. A MIG
with a dead transformer is often not worth repairing (although that is
often the last thing to fail). You may be able 'score' a dead MIG with the
necessary parts still in it for free (doesn't come cheaper than that!).
High frequency will get a discussion in part three (which will probably be
long).
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you can get at it - tig some bits of steel to the outer race to give the
puller some grip and tig the two races together making sure obviously not to
weld it to the shaft
then stick the puller on it whilst it's still hot
this often works - tap it with a hammer as dave says also helps
as does using a hydraulic rather than screw puller (don't hit the hydraulic
puller for obvious reasons
this is general advice for removing stuck bearings as i have no idea what your
motor looks like or if you can get at the bearing
reb
Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Nick Viera wrote:
>
> I still haven't been able to get the end bell + bearing off the motor
> shaft, but now that I've read your suggestions, I'll pull the whole
> armature out tonight and give it another shot, then let you all know how
> it went ;-)
>
I used a 2 jaw gear puller that just barely fit. I was just able to get the
jaws to catch the edge
of the housing. Be careful of whatever means you use, because the aluminum
housing will take the
brunt of the force. If you could drill a heavy steel plate with four holes to
match the mount
holes, you could make a nice simple puller. It would distribute the force
across the whole
housing.
When I used to pull really tight pulleys off of large diesels, one technique
worked pretty good.
We would tighten up the puller as tight as possible (to the point of almost
bending wrenches.) If
the pulley wouldn't come off, a good rap on the end of the puller with a 16 oz.
hammer, inline
with the shaft, ussually shocked it loose. You have to be pretty deliberate,
but not abusive.
Good luck
Dave Cover
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I've been thinking about what might be a new idea for motor
design based on a merging of the E-Tek and IMA-ish BLDC motors.
Here's how it works, we start out by inverting an E-Tek placing the
Perminent Magnets on the rotor and making the coils fixed and
stationary or even intigrated directly into the case.
Now if a portion of the stationary coil were exposed one could
attach a rotating brush housing setup to the rotors shaft and
then connect DC to this rotating brush housing via slip ring
brushes. Yes there are now two sets of brushes but their use
is optional and the entire brush housing could be removed.
Such a motor would opperate with an external controller as a
brushless ?2-phase? motor by powering the stationary coils directly.
Perhaps it could be configured as a 3-phase, but I'm not sure.
Or using the brush adapter the same motor could be opperated as a
low cost brushed DC motor without any fancy external AC controller.
Or both could be used at once turning the motor into a sort of DC/AC
converter or "Hybrid" AC/DC PM motor.
What do you think? Am I missing something, maybe they already exist?
L8r
Ryan
ps. to clarify the whole brush thing...
- Idealy there would be no brushes and one would use an external
. DC-AC controller to energize the stationary coils.
Withough such a controller in place:
- Since the coils are stationary, the brushes must rotate to
. provide the mechanical DC to AC switching, attaching a rotating
. set of brushes to the output shaft should serve this function.
- Now that the brushes are rotating and "floating" such that they
. can be simply wired to a second set of brushes is required to
. deliver the DC to the rotating mechanical AC brushes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
--- Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, I've been thinking about what might be a new
> idea for motor
> design based on a merging of the E-Tek and IMA-ish
> BLDC motors.
>
> Here's how it works, we start out by inverting an
> E-Tek placing the
> Perminent Magnets on the rotor and making the coils
> fixed and
> stationary or even intigrated directly into the
> case.
I'm sitting on a dead E tek so I too was thinking
of building a BLDC motor from it.
You idea is quite interesting as I have every thing
needed almost.
My idea was to just use one of the the magnet rings
and spin it on a shaft with coils mounted on
transformer lams that cover 2 magnets for a total of 4
coils on the 8 magnets.
You could use brushes, hall effect or other way to
commute it quite easily and speed could easily go
8,000rpm if balanced well thus with larger coils,
produce more power than the E-tek/magnet ring or 2
motors as the e tek has 2 rings.
One could use sensors or small timing brushes to
power fets to power the coils thus cut, eliminate
brush wear.
To reverse the current in the coils you could use 2
coils, plus and - to cut the fets to a 2/coil set.
By turning on 3 coils to start and adding the other
5 more for more power, a simple switch would work as a
speed, power controller and be modular, thus simple to
build, easy to repair.
Using a 120vdc batt pack with + and - 60vdc give
good power with ease of charging.
Or go to a fet bridge on each coil and use the
whole pack voltage.
>
> Now if a portion of the stationary coil were exposed
> one could
> attach a rotating brush housing setup to the rotors
> shaft and
> then connect DC to this rotating brush housing via
> slip ring
> brushes. Yes there are now two sets of brushes but
> their use
> is optional and the entire brush housing could be
> removed.
>
> Such a motor would opperate with an external
> controller as a
> brushless ?2-phase? motor by powering the stationary
> coils directly.
> Perhaps it could be configured as a 3-phase, but I'm
> not sure.
Not sure either. Depends on how you do it timing
wise.
>
> Or using the brush adapter the same motor could be
> opperated as a
> low cost brushed DC motor without any fancy external
> AC controller.
>
> Or both could be used at once turning the motor into
> a sort of DC/AC
> converter or "Hybrid" AC/DC PM motor.
>
> What do you think? Am I missing something, maybe
> they already exist?
I think they are great ideas and the brushed version
is what B+S was going to do to replace it but didn't.
e Cycle is threatening to do the same with their BLDC
motors.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> ps. to clarify the whole brush thing...
>
> - Idealy there would be no brushes and one would use
> an external
> . DC-AC controller to energize the stationary coils.
Using sensors and fets on the coils is my main
idea. Turning each fet on or off controls power,
speed. More like a series speed wise I'd think.
Eventually a more powerful version of this I'd like to
make to run my Freedom EV on but rather busy to do it
now but will in the future for high eff, low costs,
low weight, regen though I have no idea on how to do
regen with this set up. Anyone?
Anyone have some useless transformers with
3" x 2"-3" lams hopefully easy to take apart? I
could use a couple to make coil lams for this.
What's the best way to take transformer lams
apart? Soak it in alcohol?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Withough such a controller in place:
>
> - Since the coils are stationary, the brushes must
> rotate to
> . provide the mechanical DC to AC switching,
> attaching a rotating
> . set of brushes to the output shaft should serve
> this function.
>
> - Now that the brushes are rotating and "floating"
> such that they
> . can be simply wired to a second set of brushes is
> required to
> . deliver the DC to the rotating mechanical AC
> brushes.
>
>
__________________________________
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