EV Digest 4510
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Smart Charger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Very simple BMS
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Smart Charger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Very simple BMS
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: very simple BMS
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Prius
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Very simple BMS
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC/DC
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Smart Charger
by "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC/DC
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Very simple BMS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Very simple BMS ??
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Very simple BMS
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Very simple BMS ??
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC/DC
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC/DC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
by John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Very simple BMS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Fwd: Ship or leave - could be a free glider in Sacramento
by John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I was going to ask the same - define how smart is smart,
and also the type of the battery, is it lead acid?
Victor
Rich Rudman wrote:
Define smart charger.....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Smart Charger
Looking for:
132 volt
30 amp output
240 input AC
Smart Charger
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://electrofly.free.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=61
adjust resistor for your use et voilà
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: Very simple BMS
> Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
> battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
> appropriate size resistor?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this is all "smarts" you need, a $10 timer
from home depot cuttin off mains power in predefined
time will make any charger "smart".
If you use lead bateries, Rich's chargers are
your best choice. Ask for isolation option if this is
important for you, don't underestimate this importance!.
Victor
Sharon Hoopes wrote:
mainly "Turns its self off" do you have one.???
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Original Message]
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Date: 7/17/2005 8:10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Smart Charger
Define smart charger.....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Smart Charger
Looking for:
132 volt
30 amp output
240 input AC
Smart Charger
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, this is a copy of what I have here for my LiIons:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/clamper.jpg
but this is not what Chris is asking about.
He wants to use a zener to sharply load a battery
to a resistor, and I said resistive type of clamper's
load (linear) won't work.
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
http://electrofly.free.fr/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=61
adjust resistor for your use et voilà
Philippe
Before I blow up a few zeners, is it possible to build a rock simple
battery clamper (7.5 volt cutoff) with just a 7.5 volt zener and an
appropriate size resistor?
Chris
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Either I stumbled accross this or maybe Lee refered me to this but...
http://users.rsise.anu.edu.au/~luke/xr4000batbal.html
I haven't tried it yet but it seems simple and adjustable. However, his
voltage readings are a little bit of a concern, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 17, 2005, at 5:20 PM, djsharpe wrote:
I am considering getting a 2001 Prius for my daughter. Could a Prius
owner pl advise suitable web site to look at issues & give general
advice.
I recommend Graham's site about his Prius. He talks about his ownership
experience as well as accessories he has added plus very readable
information about how the Prius works.
<http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/PriusFrames.htm>
My wife drives a 2002 Prius. Real world mileage is about 45mpg, not bad
for a car the size of a Honda Civic with an automatic. Sometimes I get
to drive it :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their
> top end is 1.5 volts per cell.
The situation is very different between battery types.
Lithium-based cells *require* that you limit the voltage during
charging. You need to limit the voltage individually on *every cell*.
Lead-acids are more forgiving. Overvoltage during charging causes no
immediate problems, but in the long run increases water usage and
shortens life. Small amounts of overvoltage are used to equalize the
charge differences between cells.
Nicads basically don't care about the voltage during charging. You just
monitor the voltage as an indication of when they reach "full".
Overcharging just increases heating and water loss, which only affect
life if allowed to go to extremes.
With nicads, individual cell monitoring or limiting isn't normally
needed. At most, you may want to monitor the voltage at each cell, just
for diagnostic purposes (to spot a cell that has failed, or to tell you
when to stop discharging or charging).
We discussed a simple circuit to do this recently on John Lussmyer's BMS
list. I proposed a circuit with an optocoupler and resistor across each
cell. The LED inside the optocoupler has a turn-on threshold of about
1v, so the output side is completely off if the cell goes under 1v. By
sizing the resistor in series with the LED, you can determine the output
current when the cell reaches 1.5v (nominally "full"). Wire all the
output sides of the optocouplers in series, and a) it goes to zero
current when the first cell goes under 1.0v, and b) it goes over your
defined current when the last cell reaches 1.5v.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Do you do much night driving? What watt headlights do you currently
have? Have you considered installing maybe 60 watt or 40 watt lights?
I don't do much night driving. Even so, the current headlights are IMO
too dim as is... if I remember correctly they are 55/65 watt lamps.
Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
from those to the drainers if more light is needed..
I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
Seems to me that appropriately sized emitters would also consume quite a
bit of power, not to mention being pretty expensive. However, I have
converted most of the other exterior lighting to LEDs already...
What gauge wire do you have the MR2 pump hooked up with? Or would
that not make any difference what so ever as to how much it draws?
10 AWG and it, though a relay and circuit breaker, is wired straight to
the main 12-volt distribution studs located next to the 12-volt battery.
So all the wiring from the battery to the P/S pump is new.
Have you thought about putting it on a switch and turning it off when
you are going straight(down the highway, long straight road, etc.)?
Yes, but I've yet to come up with a good way to implement an automatic
switching method.... and a manual switch in the dash doesn't seem like a
good solution to me. Currently I have it wired so it only comes on when
my foot is on the accelerator (using the potbox micro switch). This is
so it is not wasting power while I'm stopped at traffic lights, and so I
don't have to *hear* it whining all the time. Though, for short trips I
usually just unplug the pump all together...
Can your DC/DC be modified to put out a little more?
I doubt it...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YES. SIR.
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 7/18/2005 9:51:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Smart Charger
>
> I was going to ask the same - define how smart is smart,
> and also the type of the battery, is it lead acid?
>
> Victor
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Define smart charger.....
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Smart Charger
> >
> >
> >
> >>Looking for:
> >>132 volt
> >>30 amp output
> >>240 input AC
> >>Smart Charger
> >>
> >>
> >>Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Lee Hart wrote:
14.5v at the battery? That's actually a bit too high, and will
shorten battery life. Or 14.5v somewhere else in the system. In most
cars, there is a significant voltage drop between the alternator and
the battery.
You're right... At the battery the voltage is about 13.8 volts at idle.
At higher engine speeds battery voltage comes up into the 14 volt range.
Again, is this 14v to 13.2v change measured at the battery, or
somewhere else? It will help us to figure out where the problem is.
This was measured at the mains fuses for the 12-volt system, where most
all of the loads (and wiring to the secondary fuse-block) connects...
and it is almost always less than 14 volts (usually between 13.6-13.2
--with the P/S pump off)
Is the DC/DC converter's current capability too small?
Yes... at least when I try to run the P/S pump and/or a lot of the
accessories.
Or is it set for too low a voltage?
I don't know. I jumpered the two-position terminal strip on the Todd
which I thought is supposed to make it output ~14.4 volts. Though, I
don't think I've ever seen this unit output more than 14 volts (even
that only occurs at really light loads).
Or is its voltage regulation poor,
Definitely. The Todd DC/DC is terrible at holding a steady voltage, at
least in comparison to my DCP unit before it zorched. The Todd is also
much slower at keeping up with the load (i.e. if you suddenly turn on a
load everything browns out for a second until the Todd catches up; if
you turn off a load the voltage spikes up until the Todd catches up.
This is especially true when switching larger loads on and off)
Are the excess voltage drops in the wiring?
Not as far as I can tell. All the 12-volt mains wiring in my Jeep is new
wiring I installed during the conversion. That means all wiring from the
battery to the DC/DC to the main fuse block/ breakers is new. I had
drawn a nice schematic of all of this somewhere, but can't find the file
on my computer (not good!), If I find it while searching through my
backup CDs I'll get it online...
Is your Jeep's electric power steering pump something you added? If
so, it could represent a substantial new 12v load that hasn't been
accounted for in the stock 12v wiring, or in your sizing of the DC/DC
converter.
Yes, it's an addition. But the main wiring in the Jeep is new and (I
believe) sized properly. Yes, this extra large load was considered when
I was looking for a DC/DC converter. But once again, the options for a
good DC/DC converter in my voltage range seem to be very few. I mean,
what I really need/want is a good 1kW DC/DC (70 amps @ 14 volts). This
would very adequately cover all my 12-volt system needs.
If you replace a 60amp alternator with an undersized 30amp DC/DC,
then yes; you will have a weaker system with more voltage sag.
Exactly what I ended up doing... the Jeep's stock Alternator was 65 amps
and my DCP unit was/ my Todd unit is 30 amps. Again, I didn't exactly
want it to be this way, but didn't have many options as far as DC/DC
converters go.
If you run this DC/DC only while driving, the 12v battery isn't going to get
fully charged, and will fail sooner. So, with such a system, you need
to run the DC/DC or a separate 12v charger when parked.
Right. A DC/DC that can tolerate your pack's charging voltage is a
really good thing so you can leave it on all the time.
P.S. I really didn't mean to continue to lament about my DC/DC situation
in this thread... so sorry if I've strayed it from the original topic.
My original purpose for posting in this thread was to make the point to
the original poster that you'll be better off if you can leave the DC/DC
converter running at all times... (though I do appreciate your
responses Lee, Ryan, and all)
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Same way??/ no it's just a power source, But the Regs can control the
charger....to save thier Butt... and this becomes a different kind of charge
once the regs get into the action.
NiCADs NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking and
the start of thermal runaway.
Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless you
know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the Cell
temp is steady or climbing .
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Yes!
> > Lee Hart had a nice circuit for this.
> >
> > Joe and I had a LION tamer that really was a Zener and a Opto, and a
> > resistor. The Opto feed back to the PFC30 charger... and this gave
analog
> > cut back of the charger as well as cell to cell equalilzation.
> >
> Do you think I could make this work with Nicads, I believe their top end
is 1.5 volts per cell. It
> would have to be a simple (inexpensive) circuit because I would need over
300 of them. Does the
> PFC20 work the same way?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
6 volt Regs could help this particular charge state.....
But I can't say how much.....
Neat Idea, We can do it....
Do we need to???
Again... better keep a eye on temps... this IS the thermal take off
point....
The Gassing... the voltage peak.... the ones that are doing this are making
heat... But if you don't do this for a short while, it's just like not
finish charging a PbLa.
This is the chemistry that keeps all the cells in line... and the point
where you need to stop charging... once the last cell is bubbling... and
warming up.
The whole charge curve instructions are meant to get the cells to this
point, and not hurt them. By time, by amphours and by Delta temp of the
cells.
What us charger designers and all us EVers want, is to get them full as
fast and as safely as possible. And get back out on the road.
I can see having a 6 volt Reg... with a 110 Deg temp Switch..read VERY
agressive temp cutout sensor, on a couple of Cell packs.. the first to reach
this gassing point, or in defalut of knowing that ,one on EVERY battery
blcok This Covers your temp runaway, knocks the high down to reduce the
gassing on the Done ones... and kicks the system into off or hold mode
should the gassing and heating get...out of bounds.
More spendy boards and adjustments.... too keep the Lead and Nickel
alive....I know I know....more places to watch or have faila.... Well what
do we do??? Watch the meters like a hawk or, add stuff so we don't have
to????
I don't like it either... but it's what keeps packs alive for decades
instead of months.
I expect that I will have to add $5 to cost of My Regs...Even at $45 each I
can barley cover my costs. They are key items for Rapid charing....By the
way I am into the second decade of making Regs...
Man I am getting OLD!.
My Daughter was Well married this past weekend, Thanks for coming to John
Wayland and Father time(Don Crabtree) and Tom True. We had a Nice EV racing
table....I picked up the Tab...
Still got Beer and wine....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS
> > Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries? These BB600's seem to allow
> > a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
> > after they reach full charge.
>
> Well true, however I have noticed they start really bubbling along once
> they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH out have been
> replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to do is clamp packs of
> 5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time to catch up. Right
> now I stop the series charge when most of them come up to bubble land,
> and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard segments.
>
> Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll find out more after
> the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all blocks are fully
> charged.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NiCADs NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking and
the start of thermal runaway.
Well true, however I have not seen much of a voltage "saddle" (drop,
then rise) on these cells, just a voltage ramp up past 1.6 volts when
"over full". I monitor temp, but they don't seem to get warm at "over
full" either.
Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless you
know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the Cell
temp is steady or climbing .
So far these flooded Safts are kind of weird. I've watched them charge
and discharge using the E-meter and dumping the results every second to
a laptop. With Excel and pivot table it looks like they come up to 1.3
volts fast, then 1.4 volts, then sit at 1.40-1.49 volts for the bulk
charge. About the time the AH counter hits zero they start climbing to
1.5 volts, then thru 1.6 volts very quickly.
Not the same profile as say sintered plate or Prismatic NiMH cells.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In thinking about the cell temps, I wonder if the reason these don't
heat up much is because they do *not* have catalytic converters in the
cells. Saft road cells have that, and although it reduces water lossage
it does heat the cell a lot as the reaction starts.
Maybe that has something to do with it.
Chris
Rich Rudman wrote:
6 volt Regs could help this particular charge state.....
But I can't say how much.....
Neat Idea, We can do it....
Do we need to???
Again... better keep a eye on temps... this IS the thermal take off
point....
The Gassing... the voltage peak.... the ones that are doing this are making
heat... But if you don't do this for a short while, it's just like not
finish charging a PbLa.
This is the chemistry that keeps all the cells in line... and the point
where you need to stop charging... once the last cell is bubbling... and
warming up.
The whole charge curve instructions are meant to get the cells to this
point, and not hurt them. By time, by amphours and by Delta temp of the
cells.
What us charger designers and all us EVers want, is to get them full as
fast and as safely as possible. And get back out on the road.
I can see having a 6 volt Reg... with a 110 Deg temp Switch..read VERY
agressive temp cutout sensor, on a couple of Cell packs.. the first to reach
this gassing point, or in defalut of knowing that ,one on EVERY battery
blcok This Covers your temp runaway, knocks the high down to reduce the
gassing on the Done ones... and kicks the system into off or hold mode
should the gassing and heating get...out of bounds.
More spendy boards and adjustments.... too keep the Lead and Nickel
alive....I know I know....more places to watch or have faila.... Well what
do we do??? Watch the meters like a hawk or, add stuff so we don't have
to????
I don't like it either... but it's what keeps packs alive for decades
instead of months.
I expect that I will have to add $5 to cost of My Regs...Even at $45 each I
can barley cover my costs. They are key items for Rapid charing....By the
way I am into the second decade of making Regs...
Man I am getting OLD!.
My Daughter was Well married this past weekend, Thanks for coming to John
Wayland and Father time(Don Crabtree) and Tom True. We had a Nice EV racing
table....I picked up the Tab...
Still got Beer and wine....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS
Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries? These BB600's seem to allow
a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell voltage actually drops a bit
after they reach full charge.
Well true, however I have noticed they start really bubbling along once
they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH out have been
replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to do is clamp packs of
5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time to catch up. Right
now I stop the series charge when most of them come up to bubble land,
and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard segments.
Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll find out more after
the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all blocks are fully
charged.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
I was thinking more along the lines of adding the LEDS in addition to
your stock headlights like this:
For city driving where the streets/parking lots are so bright that you
can't tell a difference if the lights are on or off. Have the LED
headlights on in those cases(to comply with Johnny Law). Switch over
to the standard headlights when more light is needed.
> Yes, but I've yet to come up with a good way to implement an automatic
> switching method.... and a manual switch in the dash doesn't seem like a
> good solution to me.
For long stretches, turn it off to save power. I personally would
have it on a manual switch for more control over it.
Have you thought about using 2 DC/DC's?
http://www.powerstream.com/DC-HV.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everybody,
I am back online after a long race weekend at Moroso Motorsports Park but I
wanted to respond to this subject.
ProEV's Electric Imp is charged by a Manzanita Micro PFC50. In fact, #6 from
the production line. This incredible versatile and powerful charger is an
essential part of our effort to compete with ICE race cars.
The perfect example is running at the Homestead-Miami Speedway. This track
has numerous 50 amp 240 volt outlets. We are able to plug in and recharge
our Kokam lithium polymer 360 volt 70 amp-hr pack from dead empty to full in
less than 3 hours. This means that we can run hard in qualifying in the
morning and still start the afternoon race with a full charge.
For less perfect tracks, the PFC's ability to charge off of any 110 or 240
outlet comes into play. Moroso does not have modern 240 volt 50 amp outlets.
But as long as we can match the plug, the charger will work.
The track is out in the middle of a swamp and faces some challenges in
providing reliable power. The maps do not show it as actually
being in the Everglades but driving to the track, all the roadkill I saw
were alligators. The wiring is corroded and it is hard to draw full power.
Since the chargers are Power Factor Corrected (PFC), the charger allows you
to get the most from the outlet.
We started the weekend using the team's generator. This was a Honda 5000. It
was rated 5.0 kW peak and 4.5 kW continuous. We plugged the PFC50 into the
240 volt 30 amp plug and adjusted the current limit dial so that we were
charging the pack at about 330 volts and 12 amps. This works out to be about
4.0 kW but beyond this load the gas motor began to knock and splutter.
Generators seem to be rated a little optimistically.
This set up got us through test day. Saturday the generator labored and
labored. Finally it emitted a bad smell and relieved of it's load, began to
run much easier. The generator part was dead.
We were park next to RTR Motorsportz (www.RTRMotorsportz.com). They offered
us their extra generator. It had a 110 volt 20 amp plug. No problem for the
PFC50. Not wanting to do in a second generator, we limited our charge rate
at 5 amps simply by setting the current limit dial.
The downside was that the pack would need 14 hours for a full charge. We
went looking for outlets.
Outside the track, there is camper parking. Each spot comes with 20 amp and
30 amp 110 volt outlets. We had our cheater box and tried to combine two 30
amp 110 plugs to get 30 amps of 220 volt. Unfortunately all the 30 amp
outlets were one phase and all the 20 amp outlets were the other.
We then tried to use the 20 amp and 30 amp together but the 20 amp had a
built in GFI that would trip as soon as we plugged them together.
Finally we settled for the PFC50 running off the 30 amp 110 outlet. The pack
voltage was about 320 volt. We soon had the car charging at 10 amps. After
about an hour, the outlet went dead. We chased down a maintenance guy. He
reset the main breaker but told us that it was almost too hot to touch. We
ended up charging at 6 amps.
The moral of the story (besides that we need a bigger generator) is that the
flexibility of the PFC50 made it possible for us to find a way to get the
race car charged.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
It is not a replacement but compliment - the purpose of day time
running lights is to make a car more visible (which supposedly is
considered safer), not to illuminate the road. So high brightness
low luminosity light source like LEDs are very adequate
for it - you won't see anything illuminated by them, but everyone
will sure see *you*, which is the purpose.
The ICEs already have headlights and while it's waste to run them
in day time, it is cheaper than come up with extra lights, so
mfrs just use that. Some newer car's wiring is modified that you
can't even turn it off. My mom's VW Jetta is that way.
Victor
Nick Viera wrote:
Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
from those to the drainers if more light is needed..
I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
Seems to me that appropriately sized emitters would also consume quite a
bit of power, not to mention being pretty expensive. However, I have
converted most of the other exterior lighting to LEDs already...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Hi Chris and All,
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Are we sure it's NEEDED for NiCd batteries? These
> BB600's seem to allow
> > a fair amount of overcharging, and the cell
> voltage actually drops a bit
> > after they reach full charge.
>
> Well true, however I have noticed they start really
> bubbling along once
> they hit 1.5 volts and that's about when all the AH
> out have been
> replaced (thus meaning "full"). So what I'd like to
They need 110% replaced if fully charged before
discharged.
> do is clamp packs of
> 5 once they hit 7.5 volts, and give the others time
> to catch up. Right
> now I stop the series charge when most of them come
> up to bubble land,
> and use a dedicated smart charger on the laggard
> segments.
On my SAFT's they are not charged until 1.6v/cell
at least. So it looks like you are not fully charging
your cells.
While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
often. if not used every other day then you need the
higher charging more often.
I found over 6 yrs of using mine they, after
several charges after sitting a while, stablize
together quite well and never had the least need of
regs to stay that way. And my cells are at least 30yrs
old now.
I also noticed that after accidently
overcharging them badly, they put out much more power,
cap so I started charging them harder and was pleased
with the results. Mostly I charge to all of them at
least 1.6v/cell with some over 1.7v/c and they still
put out over rated power once a week.
So boil, only about 80% charged when they start
to boil, them some especially in the beginning and you
will be pleasently surprised with added power, cap.
It's little wonder yours make little heat!! It's
not untilthe start getting warm, they are charged.
Also be aware the batts on the ends can stay
much cooler than those in the middle.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Then again they might just be coming into sync. I'll
> find out more after
> the next set of runs with the tractor; right now all
> blocks are fully
> charged.
>
> Chris
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
>
> While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
> 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
> charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
> every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> often. if not used every other day then you need the
> higher charging more often.
My assumptions;
- I have all night to charge
- My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5 volts (for now at least)
- I don't want to water any more than I have to
- aggressive charging equals more watering
- I probably can't afford either a watering system or sophisticated BMS
So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I detect a high enough
voltage (~1.5/cell) or
high temperature (going into runaway) and go into second phase of charging. If
I have the time,
can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the charge and balance out? Or
do they need a
fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or rate?
Thanks
Dave Cover
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It's not time or rate, it's amphours. The best way to charge them correctly
is to keep track of how much you have taken out and put 110% back in.
However, many scenarios other than that are good enough. Unless you are
constantly taking your EV to it's range limit, you don't need to worry about
getting a perfect charge everytime.
I know my motorcycle uses about 2.5 ahrs per mile, so when I get back from a
ride I adjust my rather crude variac charger to a voltage that seems like it
will put back in a bit more than I took out and set the timer. If it does
put back in a bit more than I took out, great, if it doesn't that's fine
too. These are nicads and don't need a perfect charge everytime you use
them. If I know that I am going someplace that will be close to the end of
my range, I charge to around 70 volts (1.6 volts per cell), then make sure
the current is in the 3 - 6 amp range and let it go for another 30 - 60
minutes.
If I had an emeter, I would probably be more precise because I could easily
do it, but I don't have an emeter and that batteries really don't care all
that much. As long as I don't let them get too hot, I don't let them dry
out, and I avoid reversing the cells they are happy.
damon
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EVList <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ni cad charging, Re: Very simple BMS
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT)
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
>
> While this is cool and even prefered for 4 out of
> 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed to
> charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell about
> every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> often. if not used every other day then you need the
> higher charging more often.
My assumptions;
- I have all night to charge
- My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5 volts (for now at least)
- I don't want to water any more than I have to
- aggressive charging equals more watering
- I probably can't afford either a watering system or sophisticated BMS
So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I detect a high enough
voltage (~1.5/cell) or
high temperature (going into runaway) and go into second phase of charging.
If I have the time,
can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the charge and balance
out? Or do they need a
fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or rate?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
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Hi Dave and All,
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > They need 110% replaced if fully charged before
> discharged.
> >
> > While this is cool and even prefered for 4
> out of
> > 5 charges to reduce watering, lower power needed
> to
> > charge, they must be fully charged to 1.65v/cell
> about
> > every 5th charge to stay in balance, cap if used
> > often. if not used every other day then you need
> the
> > higher charging more often.
>
> My assumptions;
> - I have all night to charge
> - My cells, Marathons, are probably full at 1.5
> volts (for now at least)
No they are not and will go out of balance, die if
you keep doing that.
> - I don't want to water any more than I have to
> - aggressive charging equals more watering
> - I probably can't afford either a watering system
> or sophisticated BMS
>
> So, what do you need for the final phase? Suppose I
> detect a high enough voltage (~1.5/cell) or
> high temperature (going into runaway) and go into
Those plus a timer would be great though I'd go
to a higher voltage of about 1.6v/c.
Then turn off for your average charge. Then more
every 3-5 charges to 1.65/cell.
As you learn your batts, you'll be able to
estimate the time needed to set the timer.
I use to use my batt for 4-7 days before
charging them to cut watering. That gave me 5-6 or so
trips to the store which I used it for mostly.
> second phase of charging. If I have the time,
> can I just let them boil at a low rate to finish the
> charge and balance out? Or do they need a
Fast or slow, as long as you put 110% back in at
least every 3-5 charges. Undercharge the other times
to keep watering low. There is no reason to have to
water more than 1/month if charging correctly.
> fairly aggressive rate to balance? Is it time or
> rate?
Amount!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Hello All,
I am in need of advice.
Currently in Sacramento Ca, I am smack in the middle
to converting my Nissan pickup. However I have
accepted a job in Holyoke Mass. Now I need to decide
if I want to ship the truck, or leave it here and
start fresh on the east coast.
So far I have removed all ICE components and
disassembled the dash, and un-loomed most of the wire
looms.
Initial quotes indicate a shipping price of about
$2,000 including the camper cap bed cover, and
ElectroAuto is in the process of making me an adapter
plate.
While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only spent 2
winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with the
rest of the time in NC, eastern WA and CA, so other
than the needing a new paint job it is in good shape.
Leaving out the sentimental factor of having driven
this truck for close to 20 years, it seems that it
makes sense to leave it here in CA, if I can get a
replacement donor in Mass for about $1,000.
Anyone willing to hazard a guess as to the possibility
of finding a suitable donor in Western/Central Mass?
If I decide not to ship it, there would be a free
glider available in Sacramento, and I'll be willing
make a deal on an EA adapter plate!!!
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Interesting....
It looks like voltage detect works very well on the THESE NiCds....
Hummm
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Very simple BMS
> > NiCADs NEED a amp counter .... or some way to detect voltage peaking
and
> > the start of thermal runaway.
> Well true, however I have not seen much of a voltage "saddle" (drop,
> then rise) on these cells, just a voltage ramp up past 1.6 volts when
> "over full". I monitor temp, but they don't seem to get warm at "over
> full" either.
>
> > Looking across a cell at voltage, is not going to tell you much unless
you
> > know what you took out, how much has been put back in and weather the
Cell
> > temp is steady or climbing .
> So far these flooded Safts are kind of weird. I've watched them charge
> and discharge using the E-meter and dumping the results every second to
> a laptop. With Excel and pivot table it looks like they come up to 1.3
> volts fast, then 1.4 volts, then sit at 1.40-1.49 volts for the bulk
> charge. About the time the AH counter hits zero they start climbing to
> 1.5 volts, then thru 1.6 volts very quickly.
>
> Not the same profile as say sintered plate or Prismatic NiMH cells.
>
> Chris
>
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--- Begin Message ---
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > They need 110% replaced if fully charged before discharged.
> > >
I'm getting there, albeit slowly. I'm trying to understand if I can set up a
charging process
that's as close to plug-and-play as possible. (Unless there's a magic wire I
can hook from my
Emeter to a PFC.)
So here's a made-up scenario to help me understand. Is this more like it?
Let's assume 44AH pack, running them down to 90% DOD = 40 AH taken out.
Charging 110% means 44AH going back in. (Pretend these are close enough.)
So I can charge at 10 amps for 3.5 hours and then taper down to 1 amp for
another 9 hours?
Do they gas less at lower rates?
If I only run 38AH out of them and then apply the same charge as above, what
happens?
Overkill or battery kill?
Thanks
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
--- John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am in need of advice.
>
> While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only spent 2
> winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with the
John, a couple of points;
- You may never find $1000 vehicle around here without any rust.
- You've done half the work already, and that can be the worst/dirtiest part of
the job.
- Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
- There may not be as many EVers out here, but you won't be alone. I'm about an
hour from Holyoke
and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer. (Bob R, who's up that way?)
When are you going to be out this way?
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
ProEV [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We started the weekend using the team's generator. This was a
> Honda 5000. It was rated 5.0 kW peak and 4.5 kW continuous.
> We plugged the PFC50 into the 240 volt 30 amp plug and
> adjusted the current limit dial so that we were charging the
> pack at about 330 volts and 12 amps. This works out to be
> about 4.0 kW but beyond this load the gas motor began to
> knock and splutter. Generators seem to be rated a little
> optimistically.
Your generator was rated fairly accurately; you just forgot that your
charger is not 100% efficient.
330V @ 12A = 3960W (3.96kW) output. At 90% efficiency, the input power
is 4400W (4.4kW). Add to this the fact that while the PFC's power
factor is quite good, it still isn't perfect, and you were probably
running the genset right at or just over its rated output.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Dave points out what I figured would be a problem -
rust.
However, even if I can get the vehicle to MA cheaply
via my relocation package, we will be renting for a
while and I am somewhat concerned about dealing with a
non-operational vehicle while renting. If I store it
until we buy a house then those dollars will begin to
add up.
Do you Northeast converters "import" your donors, do
you just have to be patient and wait for the right
candidate, or just pay more for a relatively rust free
vehicle?
As for timing, I'll be a New Englander again in
September.
The more I think about it the more I think there will
be a free glider available in Sacramento.
John
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- John OConnor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I am in need of advice.
> > While almost 20 years old the vehicle has only
> spent 2
> > winters in a region that salts roads (Maine) with
> the
>
> John, a couple of points;
>
> - You may never find $1000 vehicle around here
> without any rust.
> - You've done half the work already, and that can be
> the worst/dirtiest part of the job.
> - Is your new employer providing any moving expense?
> - There may not be as many EVers out here, but you
> won't be alone. I'm about an hour from Holyoke
> and I'm pretty sure there are others even closer.
> (Bob R, who's up that way?)
>
> When are you going to be out this way?
>
> Dave Cover
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