EV Digest 4579
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 914 FOR SALE
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Cost of electricity
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PORSCHE FOR SALE
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ET WebExclusive :: Clooney's Tango!
by Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cost of electricity
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Cost of electricity
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Cost of electricity
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PORSCHE FOR SALE
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Connecting the Heinemann to an EV.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Cost of electricity
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: PFC-30
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Cost of electricity
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cost of electricity
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: E-Meter Questions (woes)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cost of electricity
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: MPG vs. NGM
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 250 mpg Prius
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: MPG vs. NGM
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:25 PM 8/15/2005, Sharon Hoopes wrote:
YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE < http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/ >
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
You do? Sure can't tell from the web site.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power
The cost comparison will look better and better as fuel prices
increase. I like the EV for environmental and reduced maintenance
reasons.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharon,
Please quit typing in capitals, the messge is clear enough
if read in small letters. Also, attachments are
stripped out on EVDL, do not attempt to send them.
All everyone see is following:
Sharon Hoopes wrote:
YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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Thank you,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8/15/05, Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Slight twist on a Tango question...
>
> We know it's fast (or at least torquey... zippy at lower speed)
> We know it autocrosses well.
>
> What it the turning radius?
> I really hate driving a truck or small car around
> the city because its hard to park, make u-turns,
> and generally get around in congested areas.
> I hope the Tango is easy to maneuver in crowded areas.
Turning radius is controlled by exactly two things: (1) how much of an
angle the front tires can turn, (2) what the distance is between front
and rear tires.
I don't know what the first is, but given how much shorter the
front-to-rear distance is, I can only assume the turning radious is
pretty good.
> Also... did they install heat? Air Conditioning?
>From the commutercars.com specification page:
12,000 BTU Vintage Air air conditioning system driven by variable
speed AC motor for predictable climate control. 3,000 W electric
heater for instant-on, powerful heating.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very true. But also consider that if you mean fossil fuel prices
in general, not jsut a gasoline at the pump, the utility company
producing electricity for you by burning *that* higher priced fuel,
will jack up the price of electricity (as another form of "fuel")
as well, so unless you go solar don't expect prices
for electricity to lag *that* far behined the gas. No doubt electricity
it will be lower, but will also go up as everyone turns to it.
And at the rate California can brag about from recent own experience.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power
The cost comparison will look better and better as fuel prices
increase. I like the EV for environmental and reduced maintenance
reasons.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For my 1992 civic conversion, my cost per mile for electricity and
battery replacement is about ten cents per mile (counting the extra I
pay for "wind source" electricity). My civic takes about 220 w/hours
per mile from the battery, or about 275 watt/hours out of the wall.
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Cost of electricity
I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power so I
just thought I'd bring it up.
Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
Just throwing out some numbers let's say a 144v pack where you will use
80AH to go 20 mi for a midsize sedan. Is this basically realistic at
least for some vehicles? 1.736mi/KWH?
That same sedan might do 30 mpg, at $2.35/gal that means $0.0783 per mi.
Now looking at my electric bill, they do some funny math here. One rate
up to 500KWH, another above 500KWH, and another fuel charge for the
total usage. Assuming my house is going to use at least 500KWH, it
would be necessary to account for the extra usage at the higher >500KWH
rate. That combined with "fuel charge" puts it at $0.106 per KWH, and
combined with the earlier mileage WAG estimate, we get $0.061/mi to run
on electricity?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My stock Honda Insight cost about 4 cents per mile and it's a gasser. EV's
can be either more or less expesive than gas. My Electric motorcycle is
probably in about that same range as the Insight, although to be honest I'm
not sure how much my electricity costs even though I pay the bill every
month.
My experience from reading this list is that cost is usually a wash when it
comes to comparing EV's and gassers. For some people it is lower, but for
others it ends up being actually higher. Lot's of people drive EV's for
reasons other than cost.
Personally I think they are better for the environment, although I'm not
sure that would be the case if there were millions of them on the road. Gas
cars were great for the environment until every one got one.
I also like the option of using more than one source of energy, but that's
kind of a preparedness issue for me that is manifest in other areas of my
life. I have more than one source of heat for my house and I've got a nice
sized gas powered generator in my garage if the electricity goes out.
I also think EV's are just plain cool. I love riding my electric motorcycle
around, but I would have to buy a lot of gas to make up for the $2500+ I
spent converting a 30 year old motorcycle into an EV.
damon
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Cost of electricity
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:03:48 -0600
For my 1992 civic conversion, my cost per mile for electricity and
battery replacement is about ten cents per mile (counting the extra I
pay for "wind source" electricity). My civic takes about 220 w/hours
per mile from the battery, or about 275 watt/hours out of the wall.
Lynn Adams
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Cost of electricity
I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of the EV power so I
just thought I'd bring it up.
Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
Just throwing out some numbers let's say a 144v pack where you will use
80AH to go 20 mi for a midsize sedan. Is this basically realistic at
least for some vehicles? 1.736mi/KWH?
That same sedan might do 30 mpg, at $2.35/gal that means $0.0783 per mi.
Now looking at my electric bill, they do some funny math here. One rate
up to 500KWH, another above 500KWH, and another fuel charge for the
total usage. Assuming my house is going to use at least 500KWH, it
would be necessary to account for the extra usage at the higher >500KWH
rate. That combined with "fuel charge" puts it at $0.106 per KWH, and
combined with the earlier mileage WAG estimate, we get $0.061/mi to run
on electricity?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharon,
YoUR CapS DoN'T BOTHer ME :-)
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PORSCHE FOR SALE
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:53:09 -0700
Sharon,
Please quit typing in capitals, the messge is clear enough
if read in small letters. Also, attachments are
stripped out on EVDL, do not attempt to send them.
All everyone see is following:
Sharon Hoopes wrote:
YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Thank you,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Oh O now I am confused. I was just going to drill two holes
> in the floor of my car, insulate the connections and bolt it
> down. My problem is I want to somehow mount it in the hump
> of my car so I can reach it.
This is exactly how I've mounted mine. I cut a rectangular hole in the
hump just under the e-brake handle (so the e-brake handle provides a
degree of protection from the toggle handle on the breaker from being
accidentally operated). The top of the jump is flat in this area on my
car, so it worked out nicely.
The breaker itself is under the car, inside an aluminum box so it is
protected from the elements. The box is made by Hammond and is
available relatively cheaply from DigiKey.
If you look closely at your breaker, you will notice two screw holes,
one above and one below the toggle. These holes are tapped for 10-32
screws (if I recall correctly). I'm using these to hold the breaker to
the floor of the car, just as they would be used to mount it in a
breaker panel. It takes a bit of searching on the Heinemann site, but
if you persevere you will find a document with complete dimensions for
the mounting cutout and specs on the threaded mounting holes.
Alternatvely, look at the sides of the breaker and you will notice a
pair of grooves on each side of the breaker, one above and one below the
toggle. You can use long skinny bolts with a strap across the bottom of
the breaker to securely mount it if you don't trust the strength of the
tapped holes in the molded housing.
> Maybe I got Vertical and Horizontal confused.
I think the confusion is because some seem to describe it based on the
orientation of the breaker body while others describe it as the
orinetation of the toggle handle.
The breaker is intended to be mounted in a standard wall-mounted breaker
panel, so the body of the breaker is upright (vertical) while the toggle
handle is (more or less) horizontal.
You (and I) want to mount it such that the toggle handle is pointing up
more or less vertical and the breaker body is parallel to the ground
(horizontal).
Horizontal mounting will affect the breaker's trip characteristics
because of the hydraulic componennt of the magnetic/hydraulic mechanism
but I haven't been able to get Hienemann to quantify the effect.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> Personally I think they are better for the environment, although I'm not
> sure that would be the case if there were millions of them on the road.
How so?
> Gas cars were great for the environment until every one got one.
How can that possibly be true?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
Well I finally started working on the conversion and pulled the motor. I need
to run it in and also have to get the dimensions for the motor mount bracket
and make it. I've got a couple questions -
This is an 94 S-10, I don't know the height placement of the motor or
Transmission. Does anybody have a measurement of where the top of the bell
housing is in relationship to the top front end of the body/chassis tunnel? Or
is a good guess, leaving room for drive shaft clearance, room for the motor
mount on the chassis cross piece, etc, ok?
Somebodies website, maybe John Waylands, had some pics of new brushes and well
seated brushes with a nice curvature to them. I seem to remember that the
brushes were sanded to a radius approximating the commutator and then placed in
the motor for final seating and they came out smooth and parallel to the edges
of the carbon. I took some pics of mine (www.ironandwood.org, clik on S-10
Conversion) and need some advice on how to proceed. Should I just continue
running the motor (I have 2 old T-105's that I can use and hook them up to a 12
vdc battery charger, 10 amps only)?
Also look at the commuator, you can see some lines that look like they are
already being etched/scratched in the armature. Or will they go away in time
when all the brushes are properly seated?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
>This is an 94 S-10, I don't know the height placement of the motor or
>Transmission. Does anybody have a measurement of where the top of the
bell >housing is in relationship to the top front end of the
body/chassis tunnel? Or is a >good guess, leaving room for drive shaft
clearance, room for the motor mount on >the chassis cross piece, etc,
ok?
Are you going to be using a transmission?
If so, I'd mount the motor to the transmission and install it all in
the vehicle then make the motor mount.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can't!
They are that popular.
I can make you one though.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
I am going to be back ordered here this week. One left on the shelf, then
it's going to be a couple of weeks before I can get more loaded and tested.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:22 PM
Subject: PFC-30
> Bill hoopes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> WHERE CAN I BUY AN used PFC-30 CHARGER???
>
> Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope I meant from a 4.11: 1 to a 3.25:1.
Lugs the motors longer and give a higher top end.
And for the Silver Bullet.... lets it gain something in the last 1/8 of a
mile.
Tire size and gear ratio are the same thing. One is greasier that the other.
Madman
It's not 4PM Rod and you are not answering your phone...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> Rich, in the world of automotive gear ratios the higher the number the
lower
> the ratio. I think you meant to say a higher ratio rear end.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>Roderick Wilde
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
>
>
> > Line at a time Ryan.
> >
> > Ft says 4.11: 1 Nice for Gas... not low enough for this motor
> > combo......at
> > the moment.
> >
> > Slicks??? this is a street legal Car, Gotta be Dot spec. But yea some
17
> > inch rims and a pair of Nitto 555D... would do this car very well.
> > Oh yea Plasma Boy.... did you spend any time in the burn out
> > box????
> > Real racers have to warm up the rubber. Those Dot drag tires of mine
> > need some time warming up. If you have wheel spin.... make more smoke
> > first!
> > 170 volts is the ARc limit of a AvDC motor with no brush mods and stock
> > timing and stock brush compounds. Ot did this way back, and I am finding
> > this holds on the Dyno also.
> > How does Netgain get to 192??? They don't. They have the exact same
> > brushes
> > and comms AvDC does. So....Your results may vary, but they have no
magic.
> > Add copy is a easy design goal. I know they have Arc issue on thier
> > Rail
> > dragster, as we all do ...Except for Dennis....
> >
> > The voltage regulation that the Zillas have does this by simply
limitiing
> > the voltage the motor sees, but lets the amp through if the motor can
take
> > it.
> > Some really high level military gear had sniffer brushes, but these are
> > not
> > usefull in our applications.
> >
> > Untill somebody gives me a real loss gain number, We won't be messing
with
> > drilling holes in hundreds of dollars of pulleys. If there is No gains
> > We want the strength.
> >
> > I don't mind the sound, and neither does the rest of the team.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> >
> >
> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >>
> >> > It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires,
> >>
> >> What gear ratio does it have now? Slicks are about ~$300 for the pair.
> >>
> >>
> >> > The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of
> >> > Stock
> > EV
> >> > motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough
> > volts to
> >> > ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh...
> >> > What
> >> > next.
> >>
> >> Is 170 volts the absolute limit at all rpms? How does Netgain get 192
> >> from theirs?
> >>
> >> Is there some way to build some form of "arc detection" into a
> >> controller? For example, have a lead wire in the motor and if the
> >> motor arcs to it, have the controller trim the voltage down so it
> >> stops the arc?
> >>
> >> > I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies
> > would
> >> > do???
> >>
> >> I'd do it for the reduced noise alone. 1/16" bit or smaller? How
> >> many holes per valley? How easy are the pulleys to remove?
> >>
> >> Use a drill press and one of these and it will go real fast:
> >>
> >> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47993
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.8/71 - Release Date: 8/12/2005
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny and All,
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I haven't seen anybody discussing the economics of
> the EV power so I
> just thought I'd bring it up.
> Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand
> what kind of
> consumption they actually have, mainly just for my
> own information.
It depends on what EV, batteries you have.
>
> Just throwing out some numbers let's say a 144v pack
> where you will use
> 80AH to go 20 mi for a midsize sedan. Is this
> basically realistic at
> least for some vehicles? 1.736mi/KWH?
Only for the heaviest, worst Ev's converted from
ICE's that are not aero or reasonable weight.
Most EV's get between 100 to 400wthrs/mile which
is at $.10kwhr including fuel charge,is fairly cheap.
The best aero conversions like Karman Ghia's and
custom built as EV's like my E woody and probably my
new one, get 100wthrs/mile. Most conversions get
between 225 and 400wthr/mile.
Next is battery cost of which the best is Golf
cart batts at about $.02-.05/mile, Ni cad at $.03-.06/
mile.
And AGM batts which go for about $.05-.010/mile
So and EV can get between $.035 and .15/mile
including batts though if you murder your batt pack
that can go much higher.
But in ICE's you must include much more
maintance, repair costs that in many cases equal the
cost of batts, repairs on the EV's.
In my built as an EV my costs are around
$.035/mile for E and batts and about $.07/mile for all
costs where the gov is now giving $.40/mile for car
costs.
But for just fuel costs on mine I get about
250mpg cost equivilent, about 160 mpg energy
equivilent.
In the future the price of oil, gas will go up
quite a bit as what you have seen so far is just the
begining of it's push to about $5/gal within 2-3 yrs.
Where the Eff of making electricity and the many
ways it can be made and very little is made from oil.
it's cost rise will be 1/3 as fast.
For instance using coal or NG new plants use
cogeneration where the old ones where 30% eff, the new
ones are hitting 60% eff by first powering a turbine
and then it's exhaust making steam to gen more.
Add to that wind at $.045/kwhr, hydro at
$.01-2kwhr, Nuke at $.04kwhr, thermal solar at $.055,
and 25-100% eff improvements because fuel is not
longer dirt cheap and the price of electric will stay
rather low compared to oil, gasoline. Even Ethanol
will be a fair amount cheaper than oil.
At $5/gal, so many other bio fuels, coal/biomass
to liquid gas/diesel, tar sands and oil shale, ect
once they are up and running will hold the price to
that. Soon electric heat will be lower cost than fuel
oil, NG!!!
So do a light, aero EV like a Karman Ghia,
kitcar, ect and enjoy very low transport costs, high
speeds, long range like 100 miles for many yrs while
others go in debt trying to just get to work.
YMMV a lot,
Jerry Dycus
>
> That same sedan might do 30 mpg, at $2.35/gal that
> means $0.0783 per mi.
>
> Now looking at my electric bill, they do some funny
> math here. One rate
> up to 500KWH, another above 500KWH, and another fuel
> charge for the
> total usage. Assuming my house is going to use at
> least 500KWH, it
> would be necessary to account for the extra usage at
> the higher >500KWH
> rate. That combined with "fuel charge" puts it at
> $0.106 per KWH, and
> combined with the earlier mileage WAG estimate, we
> get $0.061/mi to run
> on electricity?
>
> Danny
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Danny Miller wrote:
Now I don't have an EV but am trying to understand what kind of
consumption they actually have, mainly just for my own information.
Well, as you know that varies from vehicle to vehicle. ;-)
My experience so far with my Cherokee EV has been that it is cheaper to
operate per mile now than it ever was as a gas-powered vehicle.
According to my mechanical kWh meter and E-meter respectfully, my Jeep
is consuming an average of 720Wh/mile on the AC side, and an average of
430Wh/mile on the DC (battery) side. I'm not positive that both of these
numbers are correct (mainly because that would mean my charging/battery
efficiency is only about 60% -- which sounds too low), but for now I
assume that my mechanical meter is correct and that if error is
occurring anywhere it is at the E-meter.
Being that grid electricity here now costs about $0.07/kWh and my Jeep
uses .72kWh/mile from the grid, my Jeep costs about $0.05/mile to
operate. When it was a gas-powered vehicle, it's best efficiency was
about 20MPG (.05gal/mile). Assuming a gas price of $2.40/gallon, my Jeep
would cost $0.12/mile if it was still gas-powered today. So Electricity
vs. Gas for me is less than half the cost.
Of course, this doesn't take into account the cost of the battery pack,
but I don't believe that the per-mile operating cost of an EV should
include the cost of replacing the batteries if you are trying to compare
it to a gas-powered vehicle's fuel cost while *ignoring* the cost for
all the replacement parts needed to keep the ICE running over the same
time period.
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, the spam filter didn't allow this this message to be
delivered for a long time.
Rush wrote:
Victor,
I downloaded and read the manuel for the BCM
One thing that really caught my attention, on page 8, was - "The BCM
also is suitable for galvanic deposition application where deposition
rate of expensive material has to be monitored for the cost control."
How does that figure with EV's? Can the BCM be used for sputtering
metals?
This application has nothing to do with an EV. They are talking about
metal deposition (using electrolysis) rate which is proportional to the
current and the total film deposited is proportional to the current over
time (or Ah). So if you want, you could calibrate your system to deposit,
say, 5um layer of gold per each 8Ah passed through the
electrode. So if you're in a hurry but don't want to exceed the
thickness of the final layer thickness, you can crank up the amps and
the meter will tell when 8Ah has passed so there is 5um layer formed.
No wasted gold from the source electrode.
I think the ability to install it in a more confined space by cutting
the display board is pretty neat.
I find it useful as well. Since half of th circuit is on the shunt,
display module is pretty small.
So could the BCM be used in another battery system, such as PV or
Boat systems like where the Emeter, link 10, link 1000 etc was
originally designed for?
It can be (and is) used in any battery system, PV or anywhere
you need to track amp hours, spent or charged. Boats, cars,
planes, ststionary back up systems, you name it.
Rush Tucson AZ www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Tikhonov"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday,
August 03, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: Re: E-Meter Questions (woes)
Nick, the prices are on the web site, and haven't changed from day
one (just fluctuate with currency exchange rate).
David, I think Lee was referring to only Link 10 e-meter, not "an"
emeter in general.
Yes, BRUSA Ah counter *is* designed for EV from ground up. It is
totally isolated from the pack, the shunt can be installed anywhere
without damage, need a few mA of house 12V to operate, consumes
1-2mA from the pack to run conversion circuit. No prescalers
(covers 6...500V in one shot), no DC-DC converters. Has half-pack
tap input (if you want to take advantage of it) so allows to detect
the difference between both halves (e.g. any battery problem), Etc,
etc.
Yes, because of all this + Swiss made (not in China) it cost couple
of hundred more - no one expects it to cost the same. Yet, how
many people here care? Convinced people is stubborn, you know :-)
They will come up with unbelievable solution to save a buck *now*.
Just re-read this Steve's passage: ============ I;ve done this but
only becuse I didn;t have a dc to dc converter handy, I would have
to charge the meter battery once a week and it seemed to die when I
needed it most. all in all best get a dc to dc converter ,... along
these lines , I have though that if you have a few things that need
a isolated supply one could use a inverter to step up the voltage
and then a transformer to bring it back down and isolate it and use
some of the inverted 120ac to run a small fountan pump that people
use to cool there zilla's. ============ (Don't get me wrong Steve,
my hat's off to the geniuses of creativity. It is good, but just so
amateurish).
To me frankly it's sad but also funny to read about blown e-meters.
BRUSA counters were (and are) made for a long time and IMHO there
is no better instrument for an EV, but I stopped promoting it (or
any top notch hardware for that matter) on EVDL.
Normally I guess it would takes 2-3 blown e-meters to start looking
for something else, but it is natural inertia like with ADC motors.
e-meter has been used de-facto for long time by everyone thus must
be so good that common impression is that nothing else worth
considering. Or people just dislike Euro stuff for no real reason
(is it "made not here syndrome?), I can't explain it. I'm happy
with my Ah counter. Since anyone has this option, honestly, I don't
care; if people don't use it, they must have their reasons. All I
can see is that many are just missing out and could be far better
of with AH counter, but just talking about it again and again
changes nothing.
Victor
Nick Austin wrote:
On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 02:05:47AM -0400, David Roden wrote:
On 2 Aug 2005 at 22:56, Lee Hart wrote:
You have to understand that the E-meter wasn't designed for
EVs.
But the Brusa meters are not as cheap as the E-meter, so ...
Do you know how much they are?
Perhaps Victor sells them?
-- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 09:30:26PM +0000, damon henry wrote:
>
> My experience from reading this list is that cost is usually a wash when it
> comes to comparing EV's and gassers. For some people it is lower, but for
> others it ends up being actually higher. Lot's of people drive EV's for
> reasons other than cost.
I completely agree.
>
> Personally I think they are better for the environment, although I'm not
> sure that would be the case if there were millions of them on the road.
I think that EV's would do much more good if there were more then an
insignificant number of them on the roads. As it stands today, they are doing
very little to reduce our reliance on foreign oil or smog, simply because
they are displacing so little of the Gas fleet.
Don't you think?
> Gas cars were great for the environment until every one got one.
Au contraire!
What were cars replacing? Walking? Horses?
I think that cars were an environmental disaster from the first one onto
today.
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The problem is that infinite mpg for the first X miles doesn't
make sense to anyone, unless you're familure with BEVs
In EV mode it's getting Infinate MPG...
So, if it's got 10 miles of EV-Atonomy...
Drive 10 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
Drive 11 miles and you use 0.02 gallon @ 50mpg = 550 mpg
Drive 12 miles and you use 0.04 gallon @ 50mpg = 300 mpg
Drive 15 miles and you use 0.10 gallon @ 50mpg = 150 mpg
Drive 20 miles and you use 0.20 gallon @ 50mpg = 100 mpg
Drive 40 miles and you use 0.50 gallon @ 50mpg = 80 mpg
Drive 60 miles and you use 1.00 gallon @ 50mpg = 60 mpg
Drive 80 miles and you use 1.40 gallon @ 50mpg = 57 mpg
The target for this project is 20 miles of EV range.
Drive 20 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
Drive 40 miles and you use 0.40 gallon @ 50mpg = 100 mpg
Drive 60 miles and you use 0.80 gallon @ 50mpg = 75 mpg
Drive 80 miles and you use 1.00 gallon @ 50mpg = 80 mpg
With the option of up to 40 miles of EV range.
Drive 40 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
Drive 60 miles and you use 0.40 gallon @ 50mpg = 150 mpg
Drive 80 miles and you use 0.80 gallon @ 50mpg = 100 mpg
So, you see if you remove the gas used at the beginning of your
drive and replace it with electricity they you may not use any
gassoline depending on the type of trips you take. I would
get the 40 miles option and rarely use any gas...
L8r
Ryan
ps. Technically the Prius can't run at freeway speeds without
bruning gas in the ICE, since It's not an EV, even with the
Plus upgrade. This is why we would be better off starting with
a BEV and adding to it gassoline range with an even smaller ICE.
So it would burn gas getting up to speed, but I believe it may
be capable of crusing at 60 without gas, anyway stay tuned...
Nick Austin wrote:
> The plug in Prius is a little strange in that it can only go up to ~40 mph
> before the engine needs to kick in, so if you are driving on the expressway,
> you are still using gas even if your battery is fully charged.
>
> The kicker is that the battery still provides assist to the engine thus
> giving you 250 mpg.
>
> I agree that the wording is clumsy, but I'm not sure how to improve.
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 11:47:47AM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
>>Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not
>>say no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used
>>for 50 miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better
>>expression. MNG Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says
>>250 mpg I think of a very small motor with no power....
>>Lawrence Rhodes
>>Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>>Reedmaker
>>Book 4/5 doubler
>>Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>>415-821-3519
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
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Hello Rush,
I am at the time also working on the dimensions of the adapter for the 1994
C-10 V-6 Vortex engine dimensions. The bell housing that fits these V-6
engines also will fit a V-8 and any Chevy transmissions.
My center line dimension from the motor shaft to the top of my bell housing for
a V-8 is 10.385 inches.
It is best to dry fit everything together. Assemble the motor to the adapters
to the bell housing and transmission and place it into position with a floor
jack modified as a transmission jack or with a engine lift if you have the
room. I design my EV, so I can remove it from the bottom without taking
anything else out that may be in front and above the motor.
Place the transmission mounting on the rubber mounting that goes on the rear
transmission cross mounting.
Now just position the motor so that the bell housing will clear the tunnel by
0.5 to 1 inch. You do not want to have the motor and transmission exactly in
line with the drive line or drive line in line with the rear axle U-joint.
There should be about 4 inch off set per six feet for these U-joints to work.
If you get them right in line, you will have a wobble in the drive line. This
allows for the rear axle movement up and down while keeping the U-joints
offset.
So it is not critical to be place just so. Just leave enough clearance between
the top of the bell housing and tunnel.
I made a floor lift, by using a small floor jack and drill a 3/8 hole through
the rotating pad. Bolted on a 2.5 inch U-channel to this pad. I had a steel
yard cut a 10 inch pipe about 4 inches long that is a 10 gage tubing that is 10
inches outside diameter. I than cut this 10 inch tubing in half to form a C
and welded the channel on to it.
This channel of the half pipe is then bolted to the channel on the floor jack.
This unit can now pivot and rotated in any direction. The curved part of the
pipe fits a 9 inch motor which is really about 9.625 in outside diameter.
I also had them cut me another 10 inch OD tubing 4 inchs wide which I will cut
in half to form a motor clamp on mounting. When I get ready, I will jack
everything into position and make some measurements to this motor mounting
clamp to a platform that has a standard engine mounting for a V-6 or V-8
engine. I will have to measure for a spacer between the motor mounting band
and the existing engine mounts because there is a .75 inch difference between
the two motors that fit this car.
I will then remove the motor band and weld on the spacer to the motor band and
tapped them for bolts.
In building and modify a EV or any car or machine, the dry fitting method is
the best. You will find that you may have to install items and remove them
several times, until you get it right.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rush<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
Hello all,
Well I finally started working on the conversion and pulled the motor. I
need to run it in and also have to get the dimensions for the motor mount
bracket and make it. I've got a couple questions -
This is an 94 S-10, I don't know the height placement of the motor or
Transmission. Does anybody have a measurement of where the top of the bell
housing is in relationship to the top front end of the body/chassis tunnel? Or
is a good guess, leaving room for drive shaft clearance, room for the motor
mount on the chassis cross piece, etc, ok?
Somebodies website, maybe John Waylands, had some pics of new brushes and
well seated brushes with a nice curvature to them. I seem to remember that the
brushes were sanded to a radius approximating the commutator and then placed in
the motor for final seating and they came out smooth and parallel to the edges
of the carbon. I took some pics of mine
(www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>, clik on S-10 Conversion) and
need some advice on how to proceed. Should I just continue running the motor (I
have 2 old T-105's that I can use and hook them up to a 12 vdc battery charger,
10 amps only)?
Also look at the commuator, you can see some lines that look like they are
already being etched/scratched in the armature. Or will they go away in time
when all the brushes are properly seated?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>
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This article also apeard in the Seattle Times this Sunday. I dont think
it does any harm to say that driving 250 miles it only used 1 gal. of
gas. I thought the point was made that the OTHER ENERGY came from
charging a larger than standard battery pack.
Ed Bagly Jr. liked the idea ( of course ) when we spoke with him here in
Seattle this Saturday. ( Boy ! does this guy like Electric Cars !! )
I have thought even a "Prius + LITE" could be done. All it would take
is 1. a larger battery pack of the same voltage as standard.
2. The "E" button, which our friends here in Seattle at SEVA says
it takes about an hour to retro-fit
and 3. some way to CHARGE the slightly larger battery pack at home....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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Rush wrote:
> Somebodies website, maybe John Waylands, had some pics of new brushes
> and well seated brushes with a nice curvature to them.
This site has the brush pics listed under the photos heading:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/download.htm
>I seem to remember that the brushes were sanded to a radius
approximating the >commutator and then placed in the motor for final
seating and they came out >smooth and parallel to the edges of the
carbon. I
Subject: Re: Motor tips in response to James Massey
Jim Husted ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) wrote on May 29, 2005 12:38 PM:
"I sell a really nice finish grade comm-stone that is 8" X 3/8" X ¾"
and would last an individual years, as long as its not dropped or
chattered to hard while stoning the comm. as it is a bit on the
brittle side, not nothing like the white chalky stuff most people use.
I have it custom made and have to buy 50 pieces min. so this item
would be a little harder to get for those far away. I sell them for
12.50 a stick plus ups or mail postage. I have never meet anyone who
does not love this stone."
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On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 04:54:15PM -0700, Lightning Ryan wrote:
> The problem is that infinite mpg for the first X miles doesn't
> make sense to anyone, unless you're familure with BEVs
>
> In EV mode it's getting Infinate MPG...
>
> With the option of up to 40 miles of EV range.
> Drive 40 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
The numbers make sense for a car that uses the EV mode then once
the batteries is dry switches to using gas.
The Prius+ does not necessarily operate that way. You can do this if you
don't accelerate hard, and stay under 40. Most likely you will be driving
that higher speeds. If you look at the equation, it gets more complex.
Here is an example:
Drive 3 miles to high way on ramp, 0 Gallons = Inf mpg
Drive 10 miles on high way, .05 Gallons = 170mpg
Note that you are getting this crazy good mileage because the electric motor
is absorbing the load that the engine would normally handle.
>
> ps. Technically the Prius can't run at freeway speeds without
> bruning gas in the ICE, since It's not an EV, even with the
> Plus upgrade.
I think this is due to the size of the DC/DC converter between the
battery and the max RPM on the motor. If you make these simple tweaks,
you could have an EV that went expressway speeds.
> This is why we would be better off starting with
> a BEV and adding to it gassoline range with an even smaller ICE.
I think you're right, a pure EV first, and ICE second would be better.
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