EV Digest 4580
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Miracle car goes infinite distance on 1 gal of gas!
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: MPG vs. NGM
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Miracle car goes infinite distance on 1 gal of gas!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) G.Clooney and the Tango....
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: MPG vs. NGM
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Future transport, energy prices Re: Cost of electricity
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: PFC-30
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC-30
by "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 250 mpg Prius
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: e-meter and DC/DC - another possible part
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor mount, Brush and commutator questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: is the stock fan enough?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: is the stock fan enough?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) motor orientation
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: hybrid car gets "250 mpg"
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Opportunity power
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: motor orientation
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Thanks to all, I'm on the road
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Fwd: Opportunity power
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Reasonable limits for GC batteries
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: e-meter and DC/DC - another possible part
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: motor orientation
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 914 FOR SALE
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: e-meter and DC/DC - another possible part
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: motor orientation
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I put a one gallon gas container in my EVcort and drove 30 miles.
When I arrived I checked my tank and noted that I had used no gas!!!
Perhaps I should issue a press release. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The problem is that infinite mpg for the first X miles
> doesn't make sense to anyone, unless you're familure with BEVs
>
> In EV mode it's getting Infinate MPG...
>
> So, if it's got 10 miles of EV-Atonomy...
> Drive 10 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
> Drive 11 miles and you use 0.02 gallon @ 50mpg = 550 mpg
> Drive 12 miles and you use 0.04 gallon @ 50mpg = 300 mpg
> Drive 15 miles and you use 0.10 gallon @ 50mpg = 150 mpg
> Drive 20 miles and you use 0.20 gallon @ 50mpg = 100 mpg
> Drive 40 miles and you use 0.50 gallon @ 50mpg = 80 mpg
> Drive 60 miles and you use 1.00 gallon @ 50mpg = 60 mpg
> Drive 80 miles and you use 1.40 gallon @ 50mpg = 57 mpg
Infinite mpg still doesn't make sense in most cases that the EV is
recharged from the grid. Unless you are buying your electricity from a
green source, or have your own RE installation, or your utility uses
renewable sources (hydro, wind, etc.) exclusively, then anytime you
recharge from the grid you are consuming energy derived at least
partially form fossil fuel sources. So, you must include the gasoline
equivalent of this fossil fuel source in your mpg calculation.
Remember, this is what the TdS people did for the Prius plug-in hybrid,
and although there may be some question about the kWh-to-equivalent
gallons of gasoline factor they used, there is no doubt that this is the
correct way to representthe fossil fuel consumption of a vehicle.
Otherwise, I could throw a honking big LPG tank in the back of my
vehicle and drive on LPG most of the time and also claim "infinite" mpg
since I didn't consume any of the gasoline in my fuel tank...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool. I placed a small canister of gas on my bike and
pedalled to work and back. When checked after - the same
amount of gas was there.
Let's issue press release together!
Nick Austin wrote:
I put a one gallon gas container in my EVcort and drove 30 miles.
When I arrived I checked my tank and noted that I had used no gas!!!
Perhaps I should issue a press release. :)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the picture, from the Electrafying Times" site, but I have been
waiting to see int on "Access Holywood" or "ET" entertainment
tonight...or CBS Evening News...
Who is handling PUBLICITY out there in Spokane ??
To be sure, I and the rest of the EV community would like to have their
TIVO's and VCR's Ready and Waiting for such News...
Any one know when this NEWS is going to HIT the Big "little screen" ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Now just position the motor so that the bell housing will
> clear the tunnel by 0.5 to 1 inch. You do not want to have
> the motor and transmission exactly in line with the drive
> line or drive line in line with the rear axle U-joint.
>
> There should be about 4 inch off set per six feet for these
> U-joints to work. If you get them right in line, you will
> have a wobble in the drive line. This allows for the rear
> axle movement up and down while keeping the U-joints offset.
>
> So it is not critical to be place just so. Just leave enough
> clearance between the top of the bell housing and tunnel.
Most RWD setups use a crossmember and mount under the tailshaft housing
of the tranny and rely on the motor mounts to locate the engine and
therefore the front of the tranny. The height of the bell-housing is
important because for minumum driveline vibration you want the tranny
output shaft to be parallel to the differential input (pinion) shaft.
It needs to be parallel both horizontally (i.e. side-to-side) and
vertically. Side-to-side should be fairly easy to get right; just
ensure the tranny input shaft is centered between the frame rails. The
vertical alignment could probably be gotten close enough by placing a
level on the input shaft and using a floor jack to raise/lower the
bellhousing until the shaft is level (or is at the same angle as the
pinion shaft if the pinion shaft is not parallel to the ground). Then
move the level to the output shaft and verify that it is parallel with
the pinion shaft at this height (this step is required since the input
shaft is often floating and so may not be quite parallel to the output
shaft until supported by the pilot bearing). Of course, you could put
the level on the output shaft in the first place and manipulate the
bellhousing height with a floor jack while observing the level from
beneath the vehicle.
Unless you are altering the rear crossmember that supports the tranny, I
don't think you need to worry about the vertical offset between the
output shaft and pinion, although as Roland observes, some minimum
offset is required in order for the u-joints to lubricate themselves
properly.
I'm not sure just how close to parallel the pinion and output shafts
need to be, but John Wayland can certainly tell you what is too far out
of alignment, based on his White Zombie experience.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is better to use cents per mile as the new basis for comparisons.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2005 10:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: MPG vs. NGM
Lightning Ryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The problem is that infinite mpg for the first X miles
> doesn't make sense to anyone, unless you're familure with BEVs
>
> In EV mode it's getting Infinate MPG...
>
> So, if it's got 10 miles of EV-Atonomy...
> Drive 10 miles and you use 0.00 gallon @ 50mpg = Inf mpg
> Drive 11 miles and you use 0.02 gallon @ 50mpg = 550 mpg
> Drive 12 miles and you use 0.04 gallon @ 50mpg = 300 mpg
> Drive 15 miles and you use 0.10 gallon @ 50mpg = 150 mpg
> Drive 20 miles and you use 0.20 gallon @ 50mpg = 100 mpg
> Drive 40 miles and you use 0.50 gallon @ 50mpg = 80 mpg
> Drive 60 miles and you use 1.00 gallon @ 50mpg = 60 mpg
> Drive 80 miles and you use 1.40 gallon @ 50mpg = 57 mpg
Infinite mpg still doesn't make sense in most cases that the EV is
recharged from the grid. Unless you are buying your electricity from a
green source, or have your own RE installation, or your utility uses
renewable sources (hydro, wind, etc.) exclusively, then anytime you
recharge from the grid you are consuming energy derived at least
partially form fossil fuel sources. So, you must include the gasoline
equivalent of this fossil fuel source in your mpg calculation.
Remember, this is what the TdS people did for the Prius plug-in hybrid,
and although there may be some question about the kWh-to-equivalent
gallons of gasoline factor they used, there is no doubt that this is the
correct way to representthe fossil fuel consumption of a vehicle.
Otherwise, I could throw a honking big LPG tank in the back of my
vehicle and drive on LPG most of the time and also claim "infinite" mpg
since I didn't consume any of the gasoline in my fuel tank...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and All,
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2005 at 09:30:26PM +0000, damon
> henry wrote:
> >
> > My experience from reading this list is that cost
> is usually a wash when it
> > comes to comparing EV's and gassers. For some
> people it is lower, but for
> > others it ends up being actually higher. Lot's of
> people drive EV's for
> > reasons other than cost.
>
> I completely agree.
But there is no reason for it to cost more!!! If
it is well designed as an EV from scratch, it will
beat a similar ICE by a factor of 2 or 3 in running
cost and about the same for inital purchase cost!!!
And one can rent/own a gen for unlimited range at
100mpg+.
>
> >
> > Personally I think they are better for the
> environment, although I'm not
> > sure that would be the case if there were millions
> of them on the road.
>
> I think that EV's would do much more good if there
> were more then an
> insignificant number of them on the roads. As it
> stands today, they are doing
> very little to reduce our reliance on foreign oil or
> smog, simply because
> they are displacing so little of the Gas fleet.
>
> Don't you think?
Yes I do but they would a whole lot better if they
didn't weight 3k-4k lbs just to move 1 butt around!!!
There is no good reason you need more than 1,000lbs
of EV to move one around. At least when the other
monster cars, SUV's leave the road in large numbers as
will happen in the next few yrs as the price of gas
rises. the recession will help clear the roads too
thanks to the Repubs so called 'Energy Policy'.
Our future will be much leaner on energy so we
will just have to adapt to it.
I have been saying it will on this and other lists
for yrs that the price of oil will greatly increase.
And it's even beat my expections as it looks more and
more like we have hit peak oil production with less
and less oil available.
I suggest anyone using fuel oil, NG for heat
prepay next month when oil, NG will go down a little,
insulate and prepare for a much higher oil, gasoline
cost next yr as this is just the begining.
You know it's bad when the market is relieved that
oil fell back to $66.34 today and NG is
$9.45mmbtu's!!! Both up between 200 + 300% since Bush
came into office and a direct result of his, repubs
energy policy designed to drive up the cost of oil!!
>
> > Gas cars were great for the environment until
> every one got one.
>
> Au contraire!
>
> What were cars replacing? Walking? Horses?
Horses!! And if you think cars were more
polluting than horses, you are seriously mistaken. Put
50,00 horses together on city streets and it quikly
becomes quite obvoius that the horse exhaust is much
worse than even old cars.
To be honest most still took trolleys in the
cities or horse coaches in other places as owning a
horse was rather expensive if not on a farm.
Of course in 1900 when there was more EV's than
any other kind of car, it was better.
The future solution will be 1-2 person very light
EV's weighing under 500lbs with 70 mph speeds and 100
mile range, easily doable even today with aero cabin
MCs. Add to that tilting 3 wheel EV's like a Lean
Machine type in EV or 4wh narrow Tango for those who
need more than 2 wheels.
Or my Freedom EV for those wanting side by side
seating, more cargo room. With Li-ion batts it's
weight will be under 1,000lbs with a 130 or so mile
range.
My molds are done and the first body will be out
next month.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> I think that cars were an environmental disaster
> from the first one onto
> today.
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes you pay but not as much. Maybe it could be expressed in cents per mile.
LR...............That's it cents per mile.........or CPM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lawler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Saying a plugin hybrid gets 250 miles per gallon is misleading. Why not
say
no gas used for one month or one week or a year. Or maybe no gas used for
50
miles at a time. Maybe someone can come up with a better expression. MNG
Miles No Gas. NGM No Gas Miles. Etc......When one says 250 mpg I think
of
a very small motor with no power....
Not to mention that the power still comes from someplace... and you pay to
plug in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
Can the PFC's be adjusted for a NiMH charging profile?
Thanks,
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 3:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: PFC-30
>
> You can't!
> They are that popular.
>
> I can make you one though.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro.
>
> I am going to be back ordered here this week. One left on the
> shelf, then it's going to be a couple of weeks before I can
> get more loaded and tested.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "ev" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:22 PM
> Subject: PFC-30
>
>
> > Bill hoopes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> > WHERE CAN I BUY AN used PFC-30 CHARGER???
> >
> > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any
distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended
recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich: I have 2 EV's Porsche 132v 105's X 22 & the festiva 72v 12X 154's.
Can I charger off 120vac 15amps for the festiva??? Thanks........Bill
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [Original Message]
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 8/15/2005 3:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: PFC-30
>
> You can't!
> They are that popular.
>
> I can make you one though.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro.
>
> I am going to be back ordered here this week. One left on the shelf, then
> it's going to be a couple of weeks before I can get more loaded and
tested.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "ev" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 12:22 PM
> Subject: PFC-30
>
>
> > Bill hoopes < [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> > WHERE CAN I BUY AN used PFC-30 CHARGER???
> >
> > Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Steve on this. It was also on the Seattle TV evening news on
NBC or CBS or ABC. That part didn't matter to me. What did is the fact that
they made it clear if you only used your battery pack for a month of local
driving you would pay nothing for gas. After all of this BS hydrogen stuff
saying electric cars are dead, when in fact hydrogen cars ARE electric cars,
it was extremely gratifying to see the return of the battery operated
vehicle in the main stream press even if it was a hybrid. I will tell you
that it really made my day!
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 5:12 PM
Subject: 250 mpg Prius
This article also apeard in the Seattle Times this Sunday. I dont think
it does any harm to say that driving 250 miles it only used 1 gal. of gas.
I thought the point was made that the OTHER ENERGY came from charging a
larger than standard battery pack.
Ed Bagly Jr. liked the idea ( of course ) when we spoke with him here in
Seattle this Saturday. ( Boy ! does this guy like Electric Cars !! )
I have thought even a "Prius + LITE" could be done. All it would take is
1. a larger battery pack of the same voltage as standard.
2. The "E" button, which our friends here in Seattle at SEVA says it
takes about an hour to retro-fit
and 3. some way to CHARGE the slightly larger battery pack at home....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
For my e-meter isolation, I used Mouser part number 580-HL02U12S12Y
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=333042>.
It has worked well, and was only $8.88.
I used a zener controlling the base of a BJT and a couple resistors to
ensure that the input to the DC/DC doesn't ever exceed the ~13.2
specified as the maximum input voltage.
If anyone needs a schematic or more details on this, let me know.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland wrote:
>There should be about 4 inch off set per six feet for these U-joints
to work. If you >get them right in line, you will have a wobble in
the drive line. This allows for the >rear axle movement up and down
while keeping the U-joints offset.
That brings up a good point. A subtle, yet little known detail:
"How much driveline angle is right for my application?"
"Thats a loaded question. The best answer is....the least amount of
driveline or u-joint angle is the best amount of angle. Try to achieve
the least amount of u-joint angle but don't make it less than 1
degree. A little known fact about u-joints is that they require about
1 degree of operating angle to get the needle bearings rotating. If
they do not rotate they will fail. Too much angle will also cause them
to fail. The type of rear suspension also plays a big part in setting
the angles as well as the engine/transmission angle. Leaf spring cars
have a need for more downward pinion angle due to spring wrap-up while
coil spring cars control the situation better. Hard acceleration as in
the case of a drag race car requires a different setting than a street
driven car. Traction bars, ladder bars, 4 links, independent rears all
have special needs and requirements."
http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/html/faq.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, and Everyone,
Ryan wrote:
In regards to the stock fan in an Advanced DC or WarP motor, 8, 9, 11,
and 13 inch sizes: With the engine compartment sealed up from the
front, is the stock fan sufficient to keep the motor from over
heating?
http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=317
Or keep the factory front with the large openings that the stock radiator used?
First off, Netgain doesn't have any published method for cooling WarP
motors. I would think that the amount of air flowing through a sealed
nose or a vented one will produce a negligable difference on the motor
temperature. I invite other opinions on this.
One thing is certain - forced air into the com area is extremely
important in removing carbon dust that could build up and cause an
arc-over. I recommend a blower like the one at the top of this page:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_elec_components.php
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I recommend a blower like the one at the top of this page:
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_elec_components.php
I've thought about using one of those. Is it quieter then the stock motor fan?
Anyway to mount it to the motor in an elegant way or make a nice
looking duct for the motor if mounted remotely?
Will it reduce my range any vs's the stock motor fan?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
My 9" ADC, as it is mounted to the adapter plate, is oriented so that the
terminals A2 and S2 are at the bottom, south, and A1 and S1 are on the right,
east, when viewed from the front. To me it seems awkward that some of the
terminals are on the bottom, hard to access, must be disconnected when removing
motor. The only reason that I can see for that orientation is that if there are
components above the motor, then they won't interfere with the terminals.
But since I will have clearance above the motor, I can rotate the motor on the
adapter plate to any one of the 4 positions allowed by the bolt holes, correct?
It just becomes a problem of taking off the clutch plate, clutch and flywheel
and then repositioning and rebolting everything.
Also while the flywheel is off I can have the teeth machined off to lighten the
load. Or is that not worth the effort?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay wrote:
Stories about hybrids often do report numbers like 250 mpg.
Does anyone know how to do a measurement and
calculation to get such a result? What does the result mean?
Can you start with a charged battery pack and one gallon of gasoline
and drive 250 miles or start with 4 gallons and drive 1000 miles?
Traditionally we think the mpg is the same during the "life" of the tank.
But with the PHEV having two "tanks", we now separate them. One is the
efficiency of the vehicle (MPG), but only while both tanks (gas and battery)
are full being used.
I've heard it put this way:
The Plug In Hybrid Prius gets XXX mpg during the first 50-60 miles (i.e.
while the larger battery pack is assisting). This range is for Li-ion. For
Cal-Car's lead acid pack, the useful assist is more like the first 20-30
miles.
If one were to drive on level ground at 55 mph with the cruise control on,
one could average 230 mpg for 50 miles.
Since most of us drive at variable speeds, up and down hills, our combined
fuel economy would be more like 100-150 mpg for the first 50-60 miles. The
Cal-Car's Prius averages about 80 mpg. Still quite impressive.
As many of us drive less than 60 miles per day for commuting, if we recharge
the car every night, you could effectively go 1200-1800 miles on one 12
gallon tank of gas.
So the reporter should have said, XXX mpg for the first YY miles, OR XXX mpg
in commuting driving.
If one drives 150 miles straight, the fuel economy for that distance would
be around 95-100 mpg.
If one drives 200 miles straight, the fuel economy for that distance would
be around 70-75 mpg, etc. The more one drives without battery assist, the
closer it will average out to typical Prius fuel mileage (45-50 mpg).
But in a commuting driving schedule with recharging every night, an "egg
under the pedal" driver could put 4-5 gallons of fuel in the car and
possibly drive 1000 miles (over several days).
Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I think there are some major advantages to be had if we marry
the limitations of alternative energy to how EV is stored.
For example, the big problem with wind power is it's inconsistent and
somewhat unpredictable to boot. If we can't guarantee the megawatts to
power the grid, you still have to build a fossil fuel generation plant
to make up the difference when it's not blowing. Coal fired plants
don't just turn on and off with a switch, or even throttle up and down
quickly, so the ability to make good use of inconsistent sources in the
grid is problematic at best.
Here in Austin they've been pushing an a/c thermostat that the power
station can remotely control by the power grid management system. I
presume this is to allow them to prevent blackouts without having to
build a great deal of excess headroom into generation and transmission
capacity for the worst case scenarios when all the A/Cs turn on at
once. I don't know if it works this way but realistically this could be
used to adjust the load to accomodate ups and downs in the wind making
wind power more acceptable.
My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a high power consumer
but also one where the exact time is charged may be somewhat elective,
could be handled the same way. In some situations you may not even care
if it gets charged today or tomorrow. In such a case solar and wind
power can be used on a "whenever you've got power to spare" basis.
Realistically electing to run on "as available" power at the decision of
the power company should earn you a lower power rate too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'll be building my battery holders. Should I insulate and cool them from the
heat? I can build the holders so that there is cooling line sandwiched between
layers and connected to the radiator. But obviously it is another system to
maintain. So my question is it worth it for the 3 or 4 months during the summer
when the outside temp is 100 or more?
I'll be using Trojan T-125's. lf the batteries start out at 70 deg for
instance, how many days at 100 deg will it take for them to rise to a
'dangerous' internal temp? At night how do I factor in the temp rise with the
charging so that I can safely figure where I am in the temp curve?
Thanks for the help.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rush,
The teeth on a flywheel is call a ring gear. It is a ring that is press on to
the flywheel. You can have it press off very easily. About 10 minutes set up
and 5 minutes to pop off.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rush<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: motor orientation
Hi,
My 9" ADC, as it is mounted to the adapter plate, is oriented so that the
terminals A2 and S2 are at the bottom, south, and A1 and S1 are on the right,
east, when viewed from the front. To me it seems awkward that some of the
terminals are on the bottom, hard to access, must be disconnected when removing
motor. The only reason that I can see for that orientation is that if there are
components above the motor, then they won't interfere with the terminals.
But since I will have clearance above the motor, I can rotate the motor on
the adapter plate to any one of the 4 positions allowed by the bolt holes,
correct? It just becomes a problem of taking off the clutch plate, clutch and
flywheel and then repositioning and rebolting everything.
Also while the flywheel is off I can have the teeth machined off to lighten
the load. Or is that not worth the effort?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a big thanks to all of you who gave good advice on what to look for with
my problem with acceleration . After having the controller checked out and had
the motor cleaned and checked out and the potbox checked, it still didn't
always work. Today I finallychecked the adjustment of the micro switch on the
potbox and found it to be out of adjustment. Works great and I'm driving it to
work tomorrow. Can't remember who suggested using the light bulb to check the
controller but it help me out in finding the switch problem. Thanks again to
all for a great web site...
John in Tucson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Here in Austin they've been pushing an a/c thermostat that the power
>station can remotely control by the power grid management system. I
>presume this is to allow them to prevent blackouts without having to
>build a great deal of excess headroom into generation and transmission
>capacity for the worst case scenarios when all the A/Cs turn on at
>once. I don't know if it works this way but realistically this could be
>used to adjust the load to accomodate ups and downs in the wind making
>wind power more acceptable.
>My thought on that is that maybe EVs, as not only a high power consumer
>but also one where the exact time is charged may be somewhat elective,
>could be handled the same way.
One of the advantages of EVs is tied to the way most people use their cars. It
would be safe to say that most people drive during the day and park their cars
at night. Electric usage usually peaks during the day and drops off at night.
The rates, when there are differences, usually go up with demand. Higher during
the day and lower at night. If you follow this schedule then you will do most
of your charging during the overnight, low demand, lower cost times.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm back on the road again! 144V and a Zilla make
all the difference in the world compared to 96V and a
Curtis. I'm grinning from ear to ear! My Iota DC/DC is
in and working as well. What a difference! My
headlights are white, not yellow anymore. My wind
shied wipers move at about twice the speed.
Back to the subject of my post... When I program
my Zilla (tomorrow after work I hope) What would be
reasonable limits to program for maximum battery amps
and maximum voltage sag? Is 1.75V per cell a
reasonable number for sag? That works out to 126V on a
144V pack of 6V batteries. For the maximum battery
amps, will the be happy with a 400amp limit? I don't
want to limit the performance too much, but I want to
keep the battery life up there. Keeping the draw under
300 so far during the break in and it can run circles
around itself in it's earlier life at 96V and 500
amps!!!
I'm loving my EV again!
TiM
'61 Electric Rampside
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail for Mobile
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It won't take days. It depends on your insulation but a battery in a
hot compartment will probably have a thermal time constant of an hour or
several hours, not days. That is, for it to cover 100%*sqrt(2) of the
difference between the old and new temps.
Temp rise might be estimated by taking capacity and assuming like 80%
charge efficiency (it depends on charge rate though). So you can at
least estimate heating as 20% of the charge you're giving it. To calc
temp rise you need thermal capacity and cooling estimates too though.
Danny
Rush wrote:
Hi,
I'll be building my battery holders. Should I insulate and cool them from the
heat? I can build the holders so that there is cooling line sandwiched between
layers and connected to the radiator. But obviously it is another system to
maintain. So my question is it worth it for the 3 or 4 months during the summer
when the outside temp is 100 or more?
I'll be using Trojan T-125's. lf the batteries start out at 70 deg for
instance, how many days at 100 deg will it take for them to rise to a
'dangerous' internal temp? At night how do I factor in the temp rise with the
charging so that I can safely figure where I am in the temp curve?
Thanks for the help.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple of newbie questions here. I've been reading Bill Dube's AGM
charging advice with great interest. Here is the context for my question. Six
Optima
YTs in a 72v series string, no balancers. Charger is a K&W Engineering B20.
Question 1)
I assume that the K&W charger is constant voltage dictated by the V pot
setting, with current tapering off. The voltage it puts out is ~84volts, with
current starting in the 10 amps (according to the gauge which doesn't appear
accurate) and decreasing to 2 - 3 amps in about 8 hours. How does one verify
and
"adjust" this charger to make sure the settings are accurate (for YT's)?
Let's assume for a minute that this charger is adequate for my application
for the main charging stage. I know that I should eventually get the balancers
issue addressed.
Question 2)
How do people on this list typically provide the 2 amp constant current
(that Bill Dube mentions) for the finishing charge phase? And how long does
this
typically take for a YT in good condition. I see some discussion of using a
power supply, but is this what people are typically using or do the PFC
chargers provide the finishing charge phase automatically?
Thanks,
Mike Bachand
New Grin - 1994 Kawasaki EX500 Ninja EV
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
For my e-meter isolation, I used Mouser part number 580-HL02U12S12Y
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=333042>.
It has worked well, and was only $8.88.
Where does it say that this DC/DC converter is isolated? Looking at the
data sheet and Mouser catalog pages seem to indicate that part number
580-HL02U12S12Y is not an isolated converter!
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Rush wrote:
My 9" ADC, as it is mounted to the adapter plate, is oriented so that
the terminals A2 and S2 are at the bottom, south, and A1 and S1 are
on the right, east, when viewed from the front. -snip-
But since I will have clearance above the motor, I can rotate the
motor on the adapter plate to any one of the 4 positions allowed by
the bolt holes, correct?
The position of the motor terminals doesn't matter. For a while I had
the motor in my Jeep installed such that two of the terminals pointed up
(north), and the other two pointed to the right (east) when looking at
the motor from the front of the vehicle. Now I have the motor oriented
so that two terminals point to the right (east) and the other two point
down (south), just as yours is now. I've found that having the motor
installed this way is good because it is much easier for me to visually
inspect the terminals and check for loose connections now than when I
had two terminals pointing up (under the battery racks).
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think they might be talking about the blue one.
What is the cost and location?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: 914 FOR SALE
> At 01:25 PM 8/15/2005, Sharon Hoopes wrote:
> >YES! I HAVE A "71" 914 PORSCHE FOR SALE < http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/ >
> >
> >Bill & Sharon Hoopes
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> You do? Sure can't tell from the web site.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might be. The spec sheet doesn't mention being isolated in its
features. However, there is no purpose that I can see in making an
unregulated 12v-12v converter other than isolation. There are separate
"-" pins for Vin and Vout, though in some cases this is used as a
pseudoground. However it lists 500v "isolation" in the specs. They
don't mention what it's isolating but I'm reading it as input-to-output.
Danny
Nick Viera wrote:
Ryan Bohm wrote:
For my e-meter isolation, I used Mouser part number 580-HL02U12S12Y
<http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=333042>.
It has worked well, and was only $8.88.
Where does it say that this DC/DC converter is isolated? Looking at
the data sheet and Mouser catalog pages seem to indicate that part
number 580-HL02U12S12Y is not an isolated converter!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Also while the flywheel is off I can have the teeth machined off to lighten
> the load.
2 pics of the starter ring gear:
http://www.reverendgadget.com/subpage3.html1.html
I'd get it rebalanced after you remove it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rush,
I am also using Trojan T-145's which is in a totally enclose insulated epoxy
coated fiber glass box. The is cover all around except for the top with 2 inch
thick Dow Corning Blue foam that is good for 25 lbs per sq.in. This foam is
than cover with a marine rug to keep it from damage.
The box is slid into the bed of my El Camino that is also cover with the same 2
inch foam and rug cover. There is about 6 inch dead air space around the
battery box and seal down with covers that have rug on top and foam below.
The battery box covers are hinge and double ribbed gasket and and cover with
rug only.
A custom made trunk light hatch is over the bed of the El Camino which is seal
and ventilated also.
It can get 130 degrees plus in direct sun light on the surface of the EV. I
only charge it when its 70 degrees inside the box with a exhaust fan pulling
cool air through the box from corner to corner while its charging with the
cover close.
After charging, I leave the fan run for a while to purge and fumes out and to
maintain a 70 degree temperature. Then I close the covers and hatch back covers
so as to keep it cool.
When the temperature is at 100 degrees, I can park it for two hours and still
have a temperature of a maximum of 75 degrees. At 8 hours in direct sun light,
you could get up to 85 degrees. Cloudy days it will be below 80 degrees.
You won't go for days at any temperature above that, unless it's 100 degrees at
night and you cannot cool it off my opening the covers or running the fans.
Two inches of foam has 10 R-factor. The four inches has 20 R-Factor. A 3/4
inch of dead air space has a 3 R-factor. The rugs have 2 R-factor per inch.
The fiberglass and sheet metal is about 1 R. I calculated the R-factor around
the box is about 25 R-factor.
Now you divide the R-factor into 1 or 1/25 = 0.04 U-factor. The U-factor is
the BTUR'S that is loss through 1 square foot of insulating material at 1
degree temperature difference. For example :
BTUR'S = Sq.Ft. x U-Factor x Temperature Difference
= 1 SF x 0.04 x 100 degrees - 70 degrees
= 1 x 0.04 x 30
= 1.2
Or you gain 1.2 bturs per hour at 100 degrees per sq.ft. from out side ambient
air to inside the battery box.
If a battery box has 50 sq.ft. then 50 x 0.04 x 30 = 60 bturs gain per hour.
This converted to electric heat where 1000 watts = 3412 btus. Therefore 60
bturs would be equal to 17.5 watts.
If it takes 4500 watts to raise the temperature 90 degrees difference in 60
minutes then :
4500 watts = 90 degrees rise = 60 minutes
4500 watts = 9 degrees rise = 6 minutes
45 watts = .9 degrees rise = 6 minutes
17.5 watts = .35 degrees rise = 6 minutes
Therefore you will have about 1 degree rise in 18 minutes. That would be about
3 degrees per hour. If the ambient temperature is 100 degrees than it would
take 8 hours to rise 24 degrees or 70 + 24 = 94 degrees.
My maximum temperature was only 85 degrees, because the ambient temperature
starts at or below 70 degrees in the morning at 8:00 AM and by 10:00 it just
start to rise and may peak at 100 degrees by 3:00. So the average time is less
than 8 hours of 100 degrees temperature.
You can used the same BTUR formula for heat loss from the battery box to the
ambient air when its colder than 70 degrees in the winter time. I have
maintain 50 degrees after 8 hours inside the battery box when it was 35 degrees
below zero which is a 105 degrees temperature difference.
Sometimes on a clear sunny day at this low temperature, I will park the car
with the glass hatch cover toward the sun. I can maintain a battery
temperature above 70 degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rush<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Battery insulating/cooling in AZ
Hi,
I'll be building my battery holders. Should I insulate and cool them from the
heat? I can build the holders so that there is cooling line sandwiched between
layers and connected to the radiator. But obviously it is another system to
maintain. So my question is it worth it for the 3 or 4 months during the summer
when the outside temp is 100 or more?
I'll be using Trojan T-125's. lf the batteries start out at 70 deg for
instance, how many days at 100 deg will it take for them to rise to a
'dangerous' internal temp? At night how do I factor in the temp rise with the
charging so that I can safely figure where I am in the temp curve?
Thanks for the help.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org<http://www.ironandwood.org/>
--- End Message ---
