EV Digest 4646
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Monitor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: driving habits
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Buses talk...
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Monitor
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Hydraulic drive motorcycle
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Driving analog gauges
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Thundersky Batteries, Dougs post on his set ups,
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Dc / Dc Converter For Sale ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Kelvin connection
by "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Peugeot's EV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Driving analog gauges
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Best Flooded Battery
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Im nervous,
I know that my range will decrease by up to 30% in the winter ? Im
hoping that with my 144vlt setup..Warp9, Zilla1k that ill be able to
get 40miles (good possibility?) in the summer and 25-30miles in the
winter ? I have a 8 mile commute each way right now....
If keeping the batterys warm is a concern i really need to address it..
Cwarman
Mark Hastings wrote:
When in Connecticut I drove my EV to the train station every workday through a year. It was parked outside even in the blizzards for 14 hours 4 miles from my house when I had the 72volt rabbit and 10 miles from my house when I had my 144 volt blazer (I lived in different places with the different cars).
When I got home I'd spend time cleaning it off and then just drive em home and plug it in. I did have a heating pad which ran with the charger to help warm up the batteries while they sat in the EV outside. Yes there was less range and yes it was a little slower to get up and go but the range was more then enough to cover my 4-10 mile ride. If I remember correctly the large mass of the batteries with just a bit of insulation in the battery box will keep them somewhat warm for long enough if you drive and charge it most every day.
Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt
have a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short
commutes ?
Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
box..
Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
Anyone using one of these setups now ?
CWarman
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any difference between AGM and floodies when it comes to cold
weather performance?
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Cwarman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:04 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt have
a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short commutes ?
Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
box..
Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
Anyone using one of these setups now ?
CWarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may want to research how much temperature drop of 600lbs of batteries
(or whatever you battery weight is) with 1/2" of insulation from 70 deg F
with an ambient air temp of -40 deg F (or whatever your coldest temp is)
during the period you are at work. Look on the web, a rough formula is
pretty straightforward. If the temp drop is too much, then you may want to
consider a strategy whereby you can plug in your battery box heaters.
I strongly suspect that if it gets down to -40deg F in your location,
plug-ins will be available for block heaters. This will be more than enough
power for a set of battery box warmers.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwarman
Sent: August 31, 2005 10:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
Im nervous,
I know that my range will decrease by up to 30% in the winter ? Im hoping
that with my 144vlt setup..Warp9, Zilla1k that ill be able to get 40miles
(good possibility?) in the summer and 25-30miles in the winter ? I have a 8
mile commute each way right now....
If keeping the batterys warm is a concern i really need to address it..
Cwarman
Mark Hastings wrote:
>When in Connecticut I drove my EV to the train station every workday
through a year. It was parked outside even in the blizzards for 14 hours 4
miles from my house when I had the 72volt rabbit and 10 miles from my house
when I had my 144 volt blazer (I lived in different places with the
different cars).
>When I got home I'd spend time cleaning it off and then just drive em home
and plug it in. I did have a heating pad which ran with the charger to help
warm up the batteries while they sat in the EV outside. Yes there was less
range and yes it was a little slower to get up and go but the range was more
then enough to cover my 4-10 mile ride. If I remember correctly the large
mass of the batteries with just a bit of insulation in the battery box will
keep them somewhat warm for long enough if you drive and charge it most
every day.
>
>
>Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt
>have a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short
>commutes ?
>
>Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
>box..
>
>Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
>
>Anyone using one of these setups now ?
>
>CWarman
>
>
>.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats what im trying to find out......What kinda of heaters people are
actually using and if they are used whenever the truck is sitting around
the yard not doing anything. BEcause yes i can plug them in anytime its
not charging etc so they will always be warm etc this is no problem. Im
wondering what the optimum way is to keep your batterys warm.
Cwarman
Don Cameron wrote:
You may want to research how much temperature drop of 600lbs of batteries
(or whatever you battery weight is) with 1/2" of insulation from 70 deg F
with an ambient air temp of -40 deg F (or whatever your coldest temp is)
during the period you are at work. Look on the web, a rough formula is
pretty straightforward. If the temp drop is too much, then you may want to
consider a strategy whereby you can plug in your battery box heaters.
I strongly suspect that if it gets down to -40deg F in your location,
plug-ins will be available for block heaters. This will be more than enough
power for a set of battery box warmers.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwarman
Sent: August 31, 2005 10:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
Im nervous,
I know that my range will decrease by up to 30% in the winter ? Im hoping
that with my 144vlt setup..Warp9, Zilla1k that ill be able to get 40miles
(good possibility?) in the summer and 25-30miles in the winter ? I have a 8
mile commute each way right now....
If keeping the batterys warm is a concern i really need to address it..
Cwarman
Mark Hastings wrote:
When in Connecticut I drove my EV to the train station every workday
through a year. It was parked outside even in the blizzards for 14 hours 4
miles from my house when I had the 72volt rabbit and 10 miles from my house
when I had my 144 volt blazer (I lived in different places with the
different cars).
When I got home I'd spend time cleaning it off and then just drive em home
and plug it in. I did have a heating pad which ran with the charger to help
warm up the batteries while they sat in the EV outside. Yes there was less
range and yes it was a little slower to get up and go but the range was more
then enough to cover my 4-10 mile ride. If I remember correctly the large
mass of the batteries with just a bit of insulation in the battery box will
keep them somewhat warm for long enough if you drive and charge it most
every day.
Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt
have a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short
commutes ?
Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
box..
Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
Anyone using one of these setups now ?
CWarman
.
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:17 PM, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
The only 2 things that can be changed are:
1) The specific Voltages for Low battery and for Reset Low indicator.
2) If any inputs should be ignored (due to not having 10 batteries to
monitor).
Both of these can be set by connecting input lines appropriately, and
doing a 3 button reset.
It needs 6 to 18v power.
For 1.2V NiCad cells, I just hook the monitor board up to the cells
being monitored.
For a 12v Battery, you either power the monitor board from the lowest
battery being monitored, OR you provide a 12v isolated supply. (12v
isolated DC-DC is around $10 I think. I should probably keep a couple
around here.)
Powering from one battery does draw something like 13ma from it. For
a Daily driver that is insignificant. For occasional use or long
storage, it needs to be shut off.
When will these be available? It sounds like the right answer for
knowing when my little pack is getting unhappy. I get a warning right
away and then I can find out exactly what battery when I get home. I'd
like to know when a battery goes under 10 volts or so (the pack is old
and I am hard on them) and reset somewhere around 14 volts.
I have a question about the optional remote board. Does it supply or
ground to operate a light? On a related note, that output is the
vehicle 12 volt power/ground right? I'd like it to operate my unused
oil pressure light, I could take it through a small relay if needed.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to everyone who responded to my query. To add another answer
to my own question, at http://nhts.ornl.gov/2001/ there is a tool
which will allow you to do your own data analysis of the National
Household Travel Survey. For example, you can get the percentage of
trips that are longer than 20 miles categorized by trip purpose and
separated by U.S. state.
Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:28:20 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>RS-232 is still around because it is cheap, simple, and low power. For
>short cable runs in quiet environments, it still works fine. For
>instance, it's reasonable for connecting an E-meter to your laptop.
Yup, and surprisingly noise resistant when done correctly. Using a
high quality shielded twisted pair DB9 cable, the data logger on my
Altrax AXE controller works perfectly even though the controller is
surrounded by the traction cables. I can't recall an error showing up
in the data.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:29:24 -0400, Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thats what im trying to find out......What kinda of heaters people are
>actually using and if they are used whenever the truck is sitting around
>the yard not doing anything. BEcause yes i can plug them in anytime its
>not charging etc so they will always be warm etc this is no problem. Im
>wondering what the optimum way is to keep your batterys warm.
Being the cheap mutha that I am, I'm going to be using conventional
heating pads. "better" (read "more expensive") self-regulating
silicone rubber heaters are available from the likes of Watlow
Engineering and Omega Engineering. I can pretty much buy a case of
heating pads for what one or two of those cost. OTOH, one can get one
made to fit the battery box for little extra cost and have it made for
the specific voltage involved.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:26 AM 8/31/2005, Paul G. wrote:
On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:17 PM, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
The only 2 things that can be changed are:
1) The specific Voltages for Low battery and for Reset Low indicator.
2) If any inputs should be ignored (due to not having 10 batteries
to monitor).
Both of these can be set by connecting input lines appropriately,
and doing a 3 button reset.
It needs 6 to 18v power.
For 1.2V NiCad cells, I just hook the monitor board up to the cells
being monitored.
For a 12v Battery, you either power the monitor board from the
lowest battery being monitored, OR you provide a 12v isolated
supply. (12v isolated DC-DC is around $10 I think. I should
probably keep a couple around here.)
Powering from one battery does draw something like 13ma from
it. For a Daily driver that is insignificant. For occasional use
or long storage, it needs to be shut off.
When will these be available? It sounds like the right answer for
knowing when my little pack is getting unhappy. I get a warning
right away and then I can find out exactly what battery when I get
home. I'd like to know when a battery goes under 10 volts or so (the
pack is old and I am hard on them) and reset somewhere around 14 volts.
I have them now. (Though I am still tweaking the software a bit.)
I have a question about the optional remote board. Does it supply or
ground to operate a light? On a related note, that output is the
vehicle 12 volt power/ground right? I'd like it to operate my unused
oil pressure light, I could take it through a small relay if needed.
The remote board operates the external signal (buzzer or whatever) by
pulling one line to +12v when active.
Yes, this is the vehicle 12v supply.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering, would not a couple of the heating pads used for water
beds work well? They are thin, relatively inexpensive, and throw out a
*TON* of heat. They are also thermostatically controlled.
I used one for a couple of years to heat my fish aquarium. I laid a
couple layers of thick towel down on the stand and put the heater on top
and the aquarium on top of that. The pad heated the rocks in the bottom
of the aquarium and kept the water any temp I wanted. I liked it a lot
better than the "insert" type heaters, but it would be a bear to replace
if it faild (tho mine never did).
James
On Wed, 2005-08-31 at 15:05 -0400, Neon John wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:29:24 -0400, Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Thats what im trying to find out......What kinda of heaters people are
> >actually using and if they are used whenever the truck is sitting around
> >the yard not doing anything. BEcause yes i can plug them in anytime its
> >not charging etc so they will always be warm etc this is no problem. Im
> >wondering what the optimum way is to keep your batterys warm.
>
> Being the cheap mutha that I am, I'm going to be using conventional
> heating pads. "better" (read "more expensive") self-regulating
> silicone rubber heaters are available from the likes of Watlow
> Engineering and Omega Engineering. I can pretty much buy a case of
> heating pads for what one or two of those cost. OTOH, one can get one
> made to fit the battery box for little extra cost and have it made for
> the specific voltage involved.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--
James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Charlotte Country Day School
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW, that actually sounds like a great idea........
Yes those waterbed heaters are VERY thin and work great...
Any others have thoughts on why this might not work ?
Cwarman
James Jarrett wrote:
I was wondering, would not a couple of the heating pads used for water
beds work well? They are thin, relatively inexpensive, and throw out a
*TON* of heat. They are also thermostatically controlled.
I used one for a couple of years to heat my fish aquarium. I laid a
couple layers of thick towel down on the stand and put the heater on top
and the aquarium on top of that. The pad heated the rocks in the bottom
of the aquarium and kept the water any temp I wanted. I liked it a lot
better than the "insert" type heaters, but it would be a bear to replace
if it faild (tho mine never did).
James
On Wed, 2005-08-31 at 15:05 -0400, Neon John wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:29:24 -0400, Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thats what im trying to find out......What kinda of heaters people are
actually using and if they are used whenever the truck is sitting around
the yard not doing anything. BEcause yes i can plug them in anytime its
not charging etc so they will always be warm etc this is no problem. Im
wondering what the optimum way is to keep your batterys warm.
Being the cheap mutha that I am, I'm going to be using conventional
heating pads. "better" (read "more expensive") self-regulating
silicone rubber heaters are available from the likes of Watlow
Engineering and Omega Engineering. I can pretty much buy a case of
heating pads for what one or two of those cost. OTOH, one can get one
made to fit the battery box for little extra cost and have it made for
the specific voltage involved.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Relative to the recent discussion about hydraulic drive systems.
http://www.gizmag.com/go/2351/
A two wheel drive dirt bike using hydraulics to transmit to the in-hub
hydraulic motor on the front wheel. Looks like Yamaha is making it
work.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm looking at these docs:
http://www.egauges.com/Inst_PDF.asp?Cart=
Trying to find what kind of current (or power) standard automotive
fuel and temp gauges with moving coil consume, (ball park number)
but of course can't find it.
It appears that most senders (except for speedometers) are
resistive elements wired as rheostats and going from some
fixed (tens/hundreds of Ohms) resistance to near zero when the fuel
level/temp/whatever changes
Did anyone measure what current flows through the sender
wire?
Also, they describe installation tests and say if you disconnect
the sender wire, the temp should read zero (most left pointer
position) and fuel - full (most right position, +12 is on).
When you ground the sender terminal it's opposite.
When no 12V applied, both are in most left position.
Why they aren't both made the same way?
Also, for electronic speedometer senders:
http://www.egauges.com/pdf/vdo/0-515-012-051.pdf
They use hall effect as well as inductive senders.
Does anyone know any technical details (voltages, wave forms)?
I need to precondition these signals before feeding them in...
Thanks in advance,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and All,
Here is an earlier post from Doug on how he uses
his batts in his EV's
Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jerry, Jukka and all,
I will just add some details and distinguish between the two Thunder Sky
approaches "under test" in my 2 EVs:
1) The Skoda mini-pickup has 26 of the 100 and 200amphr cells/pairs, along
with a 7 DCS-33 AGM lead pack for peak power. So the TS nominal voltage is
93V, supported by 84V AGM pack (through a diode at first and after a bit of
discharge, joined directly by manually switching on a contactor.) So it
really is like a "good" 84V system. This vehicle has my "power booster"
feature that inserts a cheap 12V SLI flooded battery in series to the motor
controller when I need a burst of more power/speed. So it is part-time
equivalent to 96V under high load, which is still in the voltage range for
the Curtis 1221R-84V controller with regen. That hints at one reason for me
to do it this way - to be able to use the controller and DC-DC converters I
have. If I was starting from scratch, I would prefer a slightly higher
voltage system.
I do have regs on the ThunderSky batteries in this vehicle, the nice
efficient DC-DC converter style ones that I received from TS (no longer
available). The battery charger is made up of 2 48V nominal (55V), 9A,
isolated switching power supplies that run off either 120 or 240VAC. This
is low enough to not put these special 10A maximum rated TS regulators at
risk. There are no regulators on the AGM batteries, but current in is
limited to 1A through the light bulb and Zener diodes charger. (Except with
the contactor closed and regening current into them)
2) For the Skoda hatchback upgraded this past winter, I tried a different
approach which was to go heavier on the AGM batteries and lighter on the TS
cells and $, and a little higher voltage. The goal was to have a peppier
car at 400 pounds lighter, with just slightly more range, than with golf
cart batteries. In other words, I wanted a car that would do the same
commuting to work function as before, but do it with more reserves of speed,
acceleration, range, handling and braking, as a better EV experience. The
hatchback now has 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries and 28 of the 100 Amp-Hr TS cells.
The 2 battery pack strings are direct connected through a contactor whenever
the EV is running or charging. For this EV, it is the AGM batteries that
are the "main" pack and the li ion batteries that are helping, which is the
opposite to the pickup. It is a more like a "regular" 96V system. The TS li
ion batteries supply a portion of the current required when running and
recharge the AGMs during coasting and pauses. Note also that by charging
the AGM pack to the voltage it requires, the TS cells are only charged to
about 4V per cell. This means that the TS cells are not charged and used to
their maximum capacity, but this is not needed - neither for their health
nor my range needs - and they should actually last longer charged to only
this level. The TS string stays up near the final charged voltage after
charging has been stopped, while the AGMs soon drop down to their well known
lower resting voltage level. So I could freshen up the AGM battery string's
charge after a few days of sitting, just by turning on the battery strings
connecting contactor, to charge them from the TS string .
There are Rudman Regs on the 8 AGM batteries and no regulators an the TS li
cells, which is also the opposite situation to the pickup. The AGM
batteries need them, as you would expect, since they are being charged
directly by the charger like in any "normal" EV. The TS cells don't need
regulators as much since they are not being charged anywhere near 4.25
V/cell average pack voltage, so it is unlikely they will get out of balance
before I check them next. Until now, they are staying well in balance, but
I will eventually get regulators built or bought and installed.
The charger is made up of the original Czech 84V 20A 240VAC isolated
charger and 2 5V, 20A power supplies in series to boost the voltage up for a
96V system.
Overall, this second relatively "low cost" and simple approach has met or
exceeded my expectations, and I am pleased with it for the purpose intended.
Another observation on Li Ion batteries:
I think that Valence is a good battery choice that I expect will gain
market share. At the moment it seems more expensive up front, but
considering the expected cycle life, and the BMS included, looks very
attractive to me.
Best Regards,
Doug
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone has one, please reply to me with make, model and price
Cwarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After reading Rich's documentation, I had to google pretty hard to
figure out what a "Kelvin" connection was. It breaks down like this:
A Rudman Regulator, by default, use two wires, connected (one each) to
the poles of the battery. It does two things through these wires.
First, it measures voltage. Second, it passes current that is bypassing
the battery. The problem comes when the wires get long. At that point,
the resistence in the wires affects the voltage measurement, but only
when the current in the wires is non-zero. So your batts can get out of
balance because they are effectively equalizing to different voltages.
The solution is a "Kelvin" measurement setup, where you use separate
wires for measurement and current bypass. The second set of wires
carries no current and thus sees no voltage drop due to resistance. So
you get an accurate voltage at the regulator.
The problem is that Rich no longer populates the "SENSE" pads on the
regs with pins. So you have to do some fancy soldering to hook up the
extra set of wires. This was enough of an impediment to me that I
decided to just keep the lengths of the wire to my regs relatively
constant and relatively short, hoping that that would mean that my regs
would be uniformly wrong in their voltage measurent and, thus,
relatively in balance.
- Jake Oshins
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 10:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
My problem isn't burned regs. At least so far. My regs burned through
the
plastic with mild heating. I also want to put all the regs on something
more solid anyway. The plastic was 1/16 inch thick. The problem is
running long wires. I want to run 16 gauge wire from my back battery box
under the back seat to the motor compartment. I still don't quite know
what
a Kelvin Connection is really. Looking up the defination it says 4 wire
hookup. Lawrence Rhodes
> If you read the instructions for the regs you will notice that if any
reg
> comes on solid, the charger is set too high and needs to be turned
DOWN.
>
> To help remind you to do that, you can put a seat belt buzzer or
sonalert
> on
> the external load pins of the first reg to come on. When it blinks, it
> makes
> a sound and you know your charger is making the reg blink. If it comes
on
> continuously, turn the charger down.
>
> Once you know how to set the charger, you can remove the noise maker
and
> be
> reasonably confident that the regs won't burn up.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:02 PM
> Subject: Kelvin connection
>
>
>> I want to connect my regs to the batteries in the back of my Aspire.
8
> feet
>> or so. There isn't a good spot in the back anymore. I want them
under
> the
>> hood along with my other regs. What is a good material to attach
> everything
>> to. I used plastic last time and the external loads melted through
and
> even
>> melted into one battery. The REG ABUSER. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>> Lawrence Rhodes
>> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
>> Reedmaker
>> Book 4/5 doubler
>> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
>> 415-821-3519
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the coolest shape concept EV I've seen so far:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4506/
Images:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4506/gallery/
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is a formula you can used to determine how much insulation you need to
insulated battery box, to determine how much wattage you need per hour per a
temperature difference between the inside of the battery box you want to
maintain verses the ambient temperature.
Knowns: Poly Foam insulation = 5 R-Factor per inch
3412 Btur's = 1000 Kwr'S
u-factor = 1/R-factor
TD = Temperature difference between the
heated area and the outside ambient air.
SF = Square Foot of surface expose to the
outside ambient air.
The Btur's loss formula:
Btur's = SF x u-factor x TD
Lets say your battery box square foot area is 100 SF which would by the top,
bottom and sides.
The insulation you used is 1-inch poly foam which is rated at 5-factor or
(1/5-factor= 0.2 u-factor)
The temperature difference you want to maintain at -40 below is 110 degrees TD.
Which is 70 degrees to -40 degrees range.
The Calculation:
Btur's = SF x u x TD
Btur's = 100 x 0.2 x 110
Btur's = 2200
Watts = (2200 x 1000)/3412
Watts = 644 at -40 below
A heater of 644 watts would be on continues to maintain a temperature of 70
degrees F.
Watts require is proportional to either the thickness of the insulation and/or
temperature.
Example:
Watts required Insulation Width TD Temp.
644 1-inch 110 -40
322 2-inch 110 -40
161 4-inch 110 -40
322 1-inch 55 15
161 1-inch 27 44
80 1-inch 13 57
80 4-inch 55 15
Heating Test Data:
I heat my 100 SF battery box with a round heat tape that has 120 VAC 6 foot
module sections where you could cut at the 6 foot section or 12, 18, 24-foot
and etc. I wrap my batteries which have about 1/2 space all around between the
batteries and the sides of the battery box.
This cable is self regulating made by HEAT WAVE. The same people that makes
floor radiated heating systems. You can get it a Home Depot.
My battery box is insulated to 4 inches or poly foam which is two layers of
foam with about 4 inch dead air space between the two 2-inch foam sheets.
The foam is also cover with a marine nylon rug which is glue to the foam to
prevent damage and than cover by two layers of metal and a insulated double
wall cover.
Starting out with a battery temperature of 80 degrees, I can be gone all for 8
hours at -30 below and still the inside of the battery box is still just above
70 degrees if its cloudy out. If its -30 below and sunny, I have measure the
battery box compartment ABOVE 80 DEGREES. Used solar gain by parking the car
with the battery compartment facing the sun.
I now park the EV inside a 70 degree building and do not used the in box
heating anymore. I do not park the EV outside more than two hours at a time,
so the insulation works good without extra heating.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Cwarman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt
have a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short
commutes ?
Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
box..
Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
Anyone using one of these setups now ?
CWarman
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--- Begin Message ---
Looks like most of the ones on that page aren't "real" meters in the
sense that they seem to have extra electronics inside them.
I know some replacement analog meters used for automotive have 1000 ohm,
10mA coils, meaning they can be driven directly by 0-10V.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Hi All,
I'm looking at these docs:
http://www.egauges.com/Inst_PDF.asp?Cart=
Trying to find what kind of current (or power) standard automotive
fuel and temp gauges with moving coil consume, (ball park number)
but of course can't find it.
It appears that most senders (except for speedometers) are
resistive elements wired as rheostats and going from some
fixed (tens/hundreds of Ohms) resistance to near zero when the fuel
level/temp/whatever changes
Did anyone measure what current flows through the sender
wire?
Also, they describe installation tests and say if you disconnect
the sender wire, the temp should read zero (most left pointer
position) and fuel - full (most right position, +12 is on).
When you ground the sender terminal it's opposite.
When no 12V applied, both are in most left position.
Why they aren't both made the same way?
Also, for electronic speedometer senders:
http://www.egauges.com/pdf/vdo/0-515-012-051.pdf
They use hall effect as well as inductive senders.
Does anyone know any technical details (voltages, wave forms)?
I need to precondition these signals before feeding them in...
Thanks in advance,
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Thanks for the insight....This helped a TON!
I unfortunately will haveto leave my EV parked outside all winter long
and will have her battery warmer plugged in all the time.....
CWarman
Roland Wiench wrote:
Here is a formula you can used to determine how much insulation you need to insulated battery box, to determine how much wattage you need per hour per a temperature difference between the inside of the battery box you want to maintain verses the ambient temperature.
Knowns: Poly Foam insulation = 5 R-Factor per inch
3412 Btur's = 1000 Kwr'S
u-factor = 1/R-factor
TD = Temperature difference between the
heated area and the outside ambient air.
SF = Square Foot of surface expose to the
outside ambient air.
The Btur's loss formula:
Btur's = SF x u-factor x TD
Lets say your battery box square foot area is 100 SF which would by the top,
bottom and sides.
The insulation you used is 1-inch poly foam which is rated at 5-factor or
(1/5-factor= 0.2 u-factor)
The temperature difference you want to maintain at -40 below is 110 degrees TD. Which is 70 degrees to -40 degrees range.
The Calculation:
Btur's = SF x u x TD
Btur's = 100 x 0.2 x 110
Btur's = 2200
Watts = (2200 x 1000)/3412
Watts = 644 at -40 below
A heater of 644 watts would be on continues to maintain a temperature of 70 degrees F.
Watts require is proportional to either the thickness of the insulation and/or temperature.
Example:
Watts required Insulation Width TD Temp.
644 1-inch 110 -40
322 2-inch 110 -40
161 4-inch 110 -40
322 1-inch 55 15
161 1-inch 27 44
80 1-inch 13 57
80 4-inch 55 15
Heating Test Data:
I heat my 100 SF battery box with a round heat tape that has 120 VAC 6 foot module sections where you could cut at the 6 foot section or 12, 18, 24-foot and etc. I wrap my batteries which have about 1/2 space all around between the batteries and the sides of the battery box.
This cable is self regulating made by HEAT WAVE. The same people that makes
floor radiated heating systems. You can get it a Home Depot.
My battery box is insulated to 4 inches or poly foam which is two layers of foam with about 4 inch dead air space between the two 2-inch foam sheets.
The foam is also cover with a marine nylon rug which is glue to the foam to prevent damage and than cover by two layers of metal and a insulated double wall cover.
Starting out with a battery temperature of 80 degrees, I can be gone all for 8 hours at -30 below and still the inside of the battery box is still just above 70 degrees if its cloudy out. If its -30 below and sunny, I have measure the battery box compartment ABOVE 80 DEGREES. Used solar gain by parking the car with the battery compartment facing the sun.
I now park the EV inside a 70 degree building and do not used the in box
heating anymore. I do not park the EV outside more than two hours at a time,
so the insulation works good without extra heating.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Cwarman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Battery Boxes / Heat pad ?
What are people doing with thier EV in the winter months, if one doesnt
have a garage and this vehicle is gonna be used each day for short
commutes ?
Ive read about some people that will have a heat blanket in the battery
box..
Does this not have to be on, while the truck is being used ?
Anyone using one of these setups now ?
CWarman
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Im trying to find the best performance/best price flooded 12vlt battery
out there...
Any suggestions where i can start looking and price..
I wanna start to design the battery boxes this weekend, but trying to
get my battery choice lined up so i can get some dimensions..
Cwarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Lee Hart worte:
>> If I were to rank buses for suitability in an EV, I'd say
>>
>> SPI worst
>> RS-232 bad
>> RS-485 good
>> CAN better (because software adds error detection and correction)
>> EVILbus best
Neon John wrote:
> I'd have to put RS-485 at the top of the list. Fast, multi-drop
> and practically immune to even awful noise environments.
RS-485 is good, but it didn't work in my situation. I had to communicate
with modular chargers mounted right on top of the batteries in a 300v
1500a EV. If the RS-485 line even passed over one of those battery
cables, coupling between them would inject too much noise for it to
work.
The problem comes from the very low voltage used for RS-485 switching
levels. The receivers only need 0.2v of signal to see it as "data". Then
it's up to your software algorithms and hardware deserializers to sort
out meaningful data from noise.
> I should note (maybe someone already has, I haven't been paying
> attention) that RS-485 is strictly a serial hardware spec. Any
> error-correction or communications protocol can be added on top.
Yes. The problem is that these add cost and complexity, and aren't
foolproof; there is always a chance that the noise imitates a valid
message. So, it's best to have a bus in which the noise is below the
threshold that the receivers detect. Then the nominal error rate is
zero, and you don't need to depend on hardware or software error
detection and correction to make it work.
> Though not called out in the spec, the defacto connector spec has
> become the RJ45 modular plug just like Ethernet.
RJ45 is not sealed, shielded, vibration proof or designed for the
automotive environment. It can work if kept clean and dry (which means
nowhere near the batteries, motor, or controller).
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> If I were to rank buses for suitability in an EV, I'd say
>> SPI worst
>> RS-232 bad
>> RS-485 good
>> CAN better (because software adds error detection and correction)
>> EVILbus best
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, this comparison is a bit misleading and last paragraph have to be
> emphasized:
It's just my opinion. And I'm biased, of course. (Isn't everyone? :-)
> You built an optoisolated transceiver for a 2 wire bus. This is
> not a "bus". RS485, CAN, and many other use twisted pair as a bus,
> and EVil bus is no different.
I don't understand. Why isn't it a "bus"? It's a system for connecting
up to 32 nodes together so they can exchange data over the same set of
wires. I designed the transceiver itself, terminators (two 150 ohm
resistors to +12v and ground), picked a standard connector (RCA phono),
and cable (audio shielded cable).
> I could connect your optoisolating transceivers to my CAN nodes
> and it would be optoisolated CAN network (bus), not EVil bus.
CAN is a software and data format standard; not a hardware bus standard.
RS-232, RS-485, EVILbus etc. are hardware bus standards; they don't deal
with the software or data format.
So, you can use CAN with RS-232, RS-485, EVILbus, or many other hardware
bus schemes.
But it's not as easy as you described. The EVILbus transceiver circuit
is equivalent to an RS-232 or RS-485 transceiver IC (MAX232 or SN75176,
for example). You have a separate transmit and receive data line going
in from your micro or whatever, and a single pair of wires that goes to
the EVILbus. To build a CAN-to-EVILbus converter, you'd have to deal
with separating the transmit and receive data on the CANbus, and then
sending it on the EVILbus. Since EVILbus data rates are much lower,
you'd have to deal with buffering messages. So your converter would need
a micro as well.
> Likewise, RS-485 user can connect your transceiver just to gain
> isolation, it remains RS-485 bus (bits sequence, protocol, etc).
RS-485 has no defined bit sequence or protocol. (Neither does EVILbus,
for that matter).
> So if you compare physical interface noise immumity, I trust
> EVILbus excels. You can't compare its power consumption to other
> transceiver without mentioning penalty you paid to achieve it
I did. The low power and high noise immunity is "bought" with the lower
data rate.
> transceivers naturally *have* to draw current
> if drive fast.
Correct. All things being equal, the higher the data rate, the higher
the power consumption. But the drawback to designing for a high data
rate is that even if you run it much slower, power consumption is still
high. Not as high, but higher than it would have been if you designed
around the lower data rate in the first place.
> If EVil bus would run about 100 times faster than it currently can
> (to be the same as CAN), transceivers would draw far more than
> 0.5mA per node.
That's a complicated question; there's no easy answer. The bit rate of
EVILbus, with its current cheap optos and simple termination, is 9600
bits/sec. We're sending 10-bit words (1 start, 8 data, 1 stop) so each
word is 80% data. Packet overhead costs another 10%, so the effective
data rate is around 6700 bits/sec.
CANbus is normally 500 kbits/sec. Packets only carry 6 bytes of data,
but have 21 bits of ID, 16 bit CRCs, another dozen or so control bits,
and required idle times; thus the effective data rate is around 200
kbits/sec. Thus CAN is about 30 times faster, not 100.
We already know how to make EVILbus much faster if necessary; high-speed
optocouplers, active terminator, etc. It just isn't necessary so far.
> This is by no means to diminish your design, you've solved
> difficult problem. I just want people to understand that
> you've built a very simple (2 optos + 2 transistors) and
> slow bus transceiver, not a complete bus node.
Correct. It's the sort of thing you connect to your existing micro's
serial port, and use it to send/receiver serial data.
I'd like to establish a 'standard' software protocol for EVILbus, but
getting programmers to agree is like herding cats. Everyone does their
own thing, and doesn't care if it's compatible with anyone else's.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
