EV Digest 4664
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV Feeding Frenzy
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Lexus commercial
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV shipping question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 48V - 108V battery charger for sale
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV shipping question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Video problems, RE: White Zombie video
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: starting to research - boat
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: starting to research - boat
by "Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) White Zombie Rips a 12.598 @ 103.92 mph at the Woodburn Drags!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: starting to research - boat
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: White Zombie Rips a 12.598 @ 103.92 mph at the Woodburn Drags!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
HI all,
We can't just say that one battery is better than another just because the
are Labelled deep cycle. True, we do need some field testing. I base a lot
of my decision with Jerry's 626 battery pack and his 3 year replacement.
US batteries are too expensive here and the trojan's only cost 154 Aussie
dollars which is a lot cheaper than the quotes i have been getting on the
recent threads.
I'll just have to test these batteries out and see. Get some graphs and data
happening and then let you guys know. At the moment they pack the most
capacity per kg. US batteries, weigh a fair bit and do not have the same
capacity. Also the plates on these deep cycled SCS225 also offer starting
facilities and hence there plates are little thinner which may be good
because it can provide large starting currents when needed.
Does anyone know the peukert's number for this particular battery i really
need it to get my available capacity for that battery at different discharge
rates.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folk's,
I had my E-jeep (Geo Tracker) in Roanoke, VA on Ebay this week-end and people
from as far away as Co Spgs flew in to see it and take a ride. A couple guys
rode their motorcycles from Tennessee. A couple from PA wanted to strap a
windmill on the roof and drive forever, offered $9k but I ended up selling to a
guy in NY at $9.1k who got the final bid in the last 10 seconds of the auction
at 1:40am Monday morning.
I directed all the EV wannabees to www.evalbum.com to buy there. A lot were
"fair weather" EV'ers, clueless people who just want one cause the gas is high
and will probably comit "battricide" as Lee says. ( I've driven EV's for 30
years before EV's were cool). I felt like a carnival ride guy.
Now to work on the Bombardier I bought off Ebay last week for $4.2k from
Atlanta, drove a dump truck down to pick up. Say does anyone know where to get
or make hard doors for a Bombardier? If I can't find something, I was thinking
of using Lexan or aluminum plate.
Have a Renewable Energy Day, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the Lexus hybrid commercial this weekend, the one they used the Sparrows,
solar racers and other EVs in. It wasn't too bad, just lumped all the EV into
one bucket. I only saw it once and didn't realize this was the one until it was
half over.
They show a group of all EV going down the road in formation and the Lexus
weaving in and out of them and passing them by. It implies that EVs have no
performance. How come they didn't include White Zombie, Goldie, or any of the
other EV's we know so well?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any tips on how to view the videos (AVI format)?
I cannot view the videos on John Waylands web site either (MOV format).
I am running Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10. Are you guys using
Macs? Or something like Linux?
Thanks,
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
Jim Husted said:
> ...
> her by all was rewarded with a great showing. The last run brought an
> EMF flash-over that melted an eraser size hole in one brush holder and
> vaporizing the brush spring closest to the arc area. I have reviewed
> the tape several times and it clearly shows that after the burn out
> Motor Opp's (AKA Matt of Hi-torque) gave a no-go for flight after
> seeing the flash-over, at which point mission control (AKA John "break
> it" Wayland) overrode the warning and giving a go for throttle-up.
> The resulting run ended with a 104:14 run with only 15 of the 16
> brushes making contact. The lack of brush tension caused a bit of
> arcing on the rear motor comm. but did not appear to have burnt the
> armature to hard. I'll know more after getting my baby back from that
> mean man Wayland. I'll report what I find as soon as I get the twins
> apart.
I've put together footage from a couple different cameras into a video clip
of Tim's last run in the White Zombie, in which you can just make out John's
voice in the background giving the go-ahead after the dramatic arcing
incident. And it's a fantastic run:
http://ohmbre.org/video/woodburn_2005/waylandslastrun_284x288_divx.avi
(I've compressed it to divx format to save bandwidth; you'll need a
corresponding codec).
I haven't had time today, but I'll be putting up images and more video in
the next couple of days, and I'll post here when I do. Woodburn has been a
blast every year I've attended; this year was no different.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I couldn't remember when someone listed the car carrier shippers. I remember
www.intercitylines.com but wanted some others to price compare to ship a 4k lbs
Geo-Tracker to Long Island NY. Does anyone have the list floating around,
inquiring minds want to know?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I am selling my K&W battery charger. It will charge anywhere from 48V to 108V.
I initially was going to run 108V in my car, but decided to run with 144V, so
108V won't work as well. It hasn't been used, and just sitting around since I
ordered it, much to long ago. I haven't settled on a price, but I paid $595
for it, but will not ask that much. If you or anyone you know wants it, or
have any questions, you can email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED], which is the email
that I check much more regular.
Thanks,
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Sep 2005 at 8:19, Mark Hanson wrote:
> I had my E-jeep (Geo Tracker) on Ebay ... ended up selling to a
> guy in NY at $9.1k ....
>
> Now to work on the Bombardier I bought off Ebay last week for $4.2k from
> Atlanta ...
Most people go the other way - dispose of a low-speed EV to do a conversion
that is highway capable. Mark has come full circle now, from a Comuta-Car,
to a convertered Geo Metro and then the Tracker, now back to an NEV type
vehicle. From what I understand this was for a reason that's worth noting:
the heavier vehicles had battery amortization costs that he felt were too
high (even though they were flooded batteries).
Given the electronic design work that Mark puts into all his conversions,
I'm looking forward to hearing what he does to the Bombardier. A couple
years from now I suspect that little NEV's own mother won't be able to
recognize it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I bought a 55 amp 120 VAC model on eBay for $90. I am using it with a 120 V
pack, works fine. I do not need 55 amps for my car, it runs cool and the
smart fan does not even need to run. This extra capacity may come in handy
some day (possibly a sound system).
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 12:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
Roderick Wilde is using a 120v Iota (30amp version) in Gone Postal. Gone
Postal is 240vdc as far as I know. Others have used the same model at
lesser voltages. One person said they used the 220v Iota at 144vdc. Does
it make a difference? Why are these devices working at obviously varied
voltages and above and below their ratings? I'd like to pay the least
amount for one of these devices. I think I can get by with 30 amps. That
one is close to 100 dollars.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Robert,
This info is in the battery data of Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator Battery
Section, which refers you to the WEB address that is listed below.
For Model SCS225 using 10 batteries:
120 volts
660 lbs
1.27 Peukert's number
215 Peukert's capacity in ampere-hours
At [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> equiv. (POD/min) = 1.4%
At [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> equiv. (POD/min) = 3.8%
At [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> equiv. (POD/min) = 9.0%
POD is Percent of Discharge in a minute. So you could calculated how long these
batteries will take to discharge to the discharge level you want.
For other battery percent of discharge comparison, go to:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryPOD.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/batteryPOD.html>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Chew<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: Battery choices Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
HI all,
We can't just say that one battery is better than another just because the
are Labelled deep cycle. True, we do need some field testing. I base a lot
of my decision with Jerry's 626 battery pack and his 3 year replacement.
US batteries are too expensive here and the trojan's only cost 154 Aussie
dollars which is a lot cheaper than the quotes i have been getting on the
recent threads.
I'll just have to test these batteries out and see. Get some graphs and data
happening and then let you guys know. At the moment they pack the most
capacity per kg. US batteries, weigh a fair bit and do not have the same
capacity. Also the plates on these deep cycled SCS225 also offer starting
facilities and hence there plates are little thinner which may be good
because it can provide large starting currents when needed.
Does anyone know the peukert's number for this particular battery i really
need it to get my available capacity for that battery at different discharge
rates.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I google images and found VW jeeps- NEV-Planes and a
single wheeled EV cycle even- So what is this
Bombardier?
A Golf cart?
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 6 Sep 2005 at 8:19, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > I had my E-jeep (Geo Tracker) on Ebay ... ended up
> selling to a
> > guy in NY at $9.1k ....
> >
> > Now to work on the Bombardier I bought off Ebay
> last week for $4.2k from
> > Atlanta ...
>
> Most people go the other way - dispose of a
> low-speed EV to do a conversion
> that is highway capable. Mark has come full circle
> now, from a Comuta-Car,
> to a convertered Geo Metro and then the Tracker, now
> back to an NEV type
> vehicle. From what I understand this was for a
> reason that's worth noting:
> the heavier vehicles had battery amortization costs
> that he felt were too
> high (even though they were flooded batteries).
>
> Given the electronic design work that Mark puts into
> all his conversions,
> I'm looking forward to hearing what he does to the
> Bombardier. A couple
> years from now I suspect that little NEV's own
> mother won't be able to
> recognize it.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
> you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not
> reach me. To
> send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm
> period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = =
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
U-Haul or others, have car carriers which is a slant ramp on the back of a
2-ton truck. I did not want to have my EV transported in the open air and it
was suggested by the EV company, that this steep angle could leak out the
battery electrolyte and put too much stress on very large tie downs. So I
rented a enclosed U-Haul truck which is one of the largest one they had.
My EV is 6 feet wide and 22 feet long and weighs close to 8000 lbs. I drove it
from Detroit to Montana.
At the EV company, they nail down slant 4 x 4's front and rear of the tires and
add additional blocking to the front and side walls of the truck. Set the
brakes. The car never move after driving up and down and around and over bumps.
That is if you want to do it your self. It cost me $1000.00 for one way.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hanson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 6:37 AM
Subject: EV shipping question
Hi,
I couldn't remember when someone listed the car carrier shippers. I remember
www.intercitylines.com<http://www.intercitylines.com/> but wanted some others
to price compare to ship a 4k lbs Geo-Tracker to Long Island NY. Does anyone
have the list floating around, inquiring minds want to know?
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had to download a DIVX player the pull the file from
my windows temp file to play it. Looked good. Saw the
flash of the fireball during the burnout. Used Divx
5.2.1 from Download.com. Hope this helps those who
desire to see this video. Media Player 10, Realplayer
did not care for it.
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 12:25 AM 6/09/05 -0500, chris wrote:
>
>http://ohmbre.org/video/woodburn_2005/waylandslastrun_284x288_divx.avi
> >
> >(I've compressed it to divx format to save
> bandwidth; you'll need a
> >corresponding codec).
>
> OK, where from? the 4 video viewers I have just
> throw a fit when I try and
> view it.
>
> Thanks
>
> James
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch. I need to apologize to everyone -- Rick, you guessed it, I
converted the video to a divx AVI under Gentoo Linux using software called
M Encoder. The output looked great on both of the video players I had
installed, so I didn't expect any problems. I got to the office and tried
it on a Windows system (with the genuine divx player, www.divx.com) and it
wouldn't show anything.
I will try to fix the problem and if I can't I'll re-encode it as a simple
MPEG video. This will be a larger file, but should work for everyone.
--chris
Rick Barnes said:
> Any tips on how to view the videos (AVI format)?
>
> I cannot view the videos on John Waylands web site either (MOV format).
>
> I am running Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10. Are you guys using
> Macs? Or something like Linux?
>
> Thanks,
> Rick Barnes
> Aloha, OR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Robison
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:25 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
>
>
> Jim Husted said:
>> ...
>> her by all was rewarded with a great showing. The last run brought an
>> EMF flash-over that melted an eraser size hole in one brush holder and
>> vaporizing the brush spring closest to the arc area. I have reviewed
>> the tape several times and it clearly shows that after the burn out
>> Motor Opp's (AKA Matt of Hi-torque) gave a no-go for flight after
>> seeing the flash-over, at which point mission control (AKA John "break
>> it" Wayland) overrode the warning and giving a go for throttle-up.
>> The resulting run ended with a 104:14 run with only 15 of the 16
>> brushes making contact. The lack of brush tension caused a bit of
>> arcing on the rear motor comm. but did not appear to have burnt the
>> armature to hard. I'll know more after getting my baby back from that
>> mean man Wayland. I'll report what I find as soon as I get the twins
>> apart.
>
> I've put together footage from a couple different cameras into a video
> clip
> of Tim's last run in the White Zombie, in which you can just make out
> John's
> voice in the background giving the go-ahead after the dramatic arcing
> incident. And it's a fantastic run:
>
> http://ohmbre.org/video/woodburn_2005/waylandslastrun_284x288_divx.avi
>
> (I've compressed it to divx format to save bandwidth; you'll need a
> corresponding codec).
>
> I haven't had time today, but I'll be putting up images and more video in
> the next couple of days, and I'll post here when I do. Woodburn has been
> a
> blast every year I've attended; this year was no different.
>
>
> --chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Rick Barnes wrote:
I cannot view the videos on John Waylands web site either (MOV format).
I am running Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10. Are you guys using
Macs? Or something like Linux?
Thanks,
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
Yes, proudly running Macs. At the video page, since yesterday the
opening paragraph says /'Videos are in Quick Time Player format.'
/ Quick Time is readily available for Windows users on line, just as is
Windows Media Player for Mac.
Rick, congrats on driving your EV to and from Woodburn. You helped make
Woodburn fun this year by bringing it. Thanks too, for bringing it to
the Electric breakfast show. Lots of interested folks found your car to
be a great example of how a simple and reliable EV can be made from a
basic vehicle. Now go download Quick Time Player and enjoy the videos at
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
See Ya...John Wayland
/
/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
You have lots of options when it comes to sailboats
turned electric! I've been watching this for a while
and have found your recharge abilities are greatly
enhansed over a land vehicle.
One company puts out a wind charger that converts to a
generator with a prop that you hang off the back rail
and drag while sailing... that's a good mixed use
unit. Others build recharge into the drive unit so
it's already set up for regeneration. what in mainly
comes down to though is how much do you want to spend
and how much of the work can you do yourself...
batteries will be a large part of the equation, as
well as motor and controller.
I didn't have much time this morning but here's a
couple of links;
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm
http://www.rayeo.com/
Tom
I would like to start researching converting my
sailboat aux. engine to electric. 30', 10,000 lb
vessel that uses engine only for about an hour a trip,
although a trip south is planned in the future that
would require ~ 10 hour days of motoring.
There is presently a 30 hp gasoline engine, that does
not come close to using 30 hp, at the low rpm it runs,
I am told it only gets to about 15. Some conversions
have been replaced with 13 hp diesels.
So, where do I start to find out what I require to do
the job, where to look for parts, etc. I have looked
through evparts.com, and although they have some
pricing, there is no place to determine what I need,
what batteries will do the job, how many I need, etc.
Thanks for the help!!
Joe
__________________________________________________________
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to mention electric trolling motors that have been in use for years and
years, some up to 5 horse power maybe more..
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: starting to research - boat
> Hi
> You have lots of options when it comes to sailboats
> turned electric! I've been watching this for a while
> and have found your recharge abilities are greatly
> enhansed over a land vehicle.
>
> One company puts out a wind charger that converts to a
> generator with a prop that you hang off the back rail
> and drag while sailing... that's a good mixed use
> unit. Others build recharge into the drive unit so
> it's already set up for regeneration. what in mainly
> comes down to though is how much do you want to spend
> and how much of the work can you do yourself...
> batteries will be a large part of the equation, as
> well as motor and controller.
>
> I didn't have much time this morning but here's a
> couple of links;
> http://www.econogics.com/ev/evboats.htm
> http://www.rayeo.com/
>
> Tom
>
>
> I would like to start researching converting my
> sailboat aux. engine to electric. 30', 10,000 lb
> vessel that uses engine only for about an hour a trip,
> although a trip south is planned in the future that
> would require ~ 10 hour days of motoring.
>
> There is presently a 30 hp gasoline engine, that does
> not come close to using 30 hp, at the low rpm it runs,
> I am told it only gets to about 15. Some conversions
> have been replaced with 13 hp diesels.
>
> So, where do I start to find out what I require to do
> the job, where to look for parts, etc. I have looked
> through evparts.com, and although they have some
> pricing, there is no place to determine what I need,
> what batteries will do the job, how many I need, etc.
>
> Thanks for the help!!
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 9/5/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
It's Monday, the day after....whew! This will be a short (for a Wayland
type) post, as I've got a car on a trailer to unload, a 200+ lb.
generator in the back of my service truck to unload (thank goodness I
have a forklift), chargers, cords, chains and other stuff to unload, and
a shop to get back in order after 4 days of excitement. There will be a
more complete posts to follow in the next day or so.
From my friend John Westlund:
Congrats on the mid 12 second runs. At this rate, you'll be
into to the 11s before long...
Thanks, it feels 'real' good today after a much needed restful sleep! I
cannot begin to thank everyone enough for all their help and support
this past year of preparation....but thank you all!
If you have Qucik Time Player, a must see is the video of the 'EV from
hell video' of White Zombie smoking the tires, arcing and throwing out
molten metal parts, then ferociously launching and rushing to a 104 mph
top speed. Check it out in the video section at:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
I'll try to thank some now, no order of importance is intended:
A very special thank you has to go to Hawker and the guys at
AeroBatteries for their joint sponsorship of the insanely stout pack of
29, 12V - 26ahr modules. Throughout the entire weekend of drag racing
the batteries simply did as promised and delivered steady power with
absolutely no problems whatsoever. Because we were in a rush to finish
things, and knowing the batteries were all so close to one another in
charged voltage, and because they were all date coded the same and very
closely matched, I decided to not use the Rudman Regs for this past
weekend. Checking batteries at the track proved they were all staying
very close to one another throughout the extreme discharge and fast
charge cycles. Today, each and every battery was sitting at 13.01 -
13.04V, or within 3/100V of each other. However, now that the crunch is
over, the first order of business is installing all 29 of the sponsored
regs from Manazanita Micro to keep this pack healthy.
Thank you, Rich Rudman and Manzanita Micro for the support, and thanks
for being a friend and believer all this time.
Thank you George Tylinski too, for handing me your brawny PFC50
charger...again!
Thanks to Otmar's Cafe Electric for their sponsorship and help with the
all-important Zilla Z2K controller....geesh, it's so damn powerful!
Thanks to super support from Keith 'The Dutchman' of Dutchman
Motorsports for building the Street-strip rear end setup fitted with the
mondo 31 spline racing axles, and for the killer stainless steel
extra-long Siamese 8 motor shaft he made, and all the other great stuff
the Dutchman folks did behind the scenes to make it all come together.
Thanks to Inland Empire Drivelines for the sponsored aluminum racing
driveline...tough as nails, light, and strong! The new driveline, though
huge in overall size and beefier than ever, shaved off 13 lbs. over the
old steel driveline and its requisite carrier bearing mount, and a full
10 lbs. off the rotational mass at 15 lbs. vs 25 lbs. (+ 3 lbs. for the
mount).
Thanks to my employer, NW Handling Systems, for the generous use of my
forklift service truck as a rolling shop on wheels.
Thanks to Chip Gribben for his wonderful artwork and help with
everything he does for NEDRA, too.
Thanks to Marko Mongillo for his creative skills and metalwork
craftsmanship, as always. In addition to all the work over the last
months making battery boxes, under hood brackets and mounts, motor mount
parts, etc., Marko was also in my EV shop Friday race day, making up
much needed brackets and such.
Thanks to Jim and Matt Husted for their tireless work on that killer motor!
Thanks to the techno geek guys Mark, Chris, and Shawn from the Austin EV
gang. Shawn pulled off a last minute DC-DC-endectomy to repair and
convert a 2nd generation 30 amp Todd to run post voltage doubler at 370+
volts off the car's pack...it performed flawlessly over the racing
weekend keeping the under-hood 12V system 16 ahr Hawker Genesis battery
at 14+V to run the cooling pump, four contactors, relays, and the car's
normal 12V loads. Mark Farver and the crew had a telemetry system hooked
up that recorded valuable data to plot graphs of the car's runs. Two
from Friday night's runs are up and can be viewed here:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/graphics/plots/
Of course, a HUGE thanks to Tim Brehm for his untiring help and a day of
heavy footed driving :-)
Thanks to Mark Dodrill for manning the generators and chargers and for
keeping White Zombie's new battery pack perfectly charged.
Thanks to Bob Rice for being a gopher the past 3 days, for some great
video coverage, and for your friendship over the years.
Thanks to everyone who was at my place Friday helping us put the car
together!
More thanks will come later as I remember all those I'm forgetting right
now.
Yeah, the car is an animal now, plain and simple. We never did crank up
the power all the way as it's uncontrollable off the line even on a
sticky drag track. Tim and the Zombie were in a battle to see who was
the boss....on this day, the Zombie pretty much had it's way with Tim,
though towards the end he was starting to get the upper hand. The best
launch was at 1500 amps and 'only' after a smoky, tire melting
burnout....if you don't heat up the tires to get them sticky, there's no
launch and all you get is about 40 feet of both tires rolling smoke out
the rear fenders. However, light those rear tires up for about 5-7
seconds, then stage right away and launch, and you get a street EV that
is now running sub-8 second 1/8th mile times....that puts White Zombie
into the Pro Stock drag racing class for 1/8 mile drags! At 1700 amps in
series mode, even after a smoke'n burnout, the car cannot hook up off
the line...the mighty Zilla's full 2000 amps from rest with the hammer
down puts the car completely out of control, as I found out Friday night
at the first 'Wayland Invitational' electric street drags!! The perfect
combination for now, seems to be 1500 amps in the series mode with the
full 2000 amps in the parallel mode. The 348V battery pack was never
asked to give more than 900 amps. According to data from the geek crew,
it appears that the initial sag of the pack at 900 amps was only down to
240V or so, much better than I had hoped for. It did sag lower as time
went by during the run, all the way down to 160V at the end of the run,
that's about 5 volts higher than where the 240V pack of Exides fell to
at the end of the run. I haven't seen the data from Sunday's runs, but
with ever increasing trap speeds that got as high as 104 mph, it's a
sure bet that as the pack got broken in and warmed up, their sagged
voltage rose to higher potentials that I'm guessing were in the 165V
range....Mark?
Tim did a great job (I knew he would) driving. I yelled at him after a
wimpy burnout that was followed by a wimpy launch on his second 'ever'
run down the track. I told him to blister the tires 'just so'. He
listened, he did it perfectly, and the car simply stuck, barked the
tires once, then catapulted off the line like I've never seen it do! It
seems I've come up with a good formula for drag racing success with this
latest combination of the Siamese 8 motor, the lighter and stronger
aluminum driveline, the Z2K Zilla, the pack of awesome Hawker
AeroBatteries at 348V, and the lower car weight due to all the
aforementioned changes.
As to the arcy-sparky bit on the last run, I still haven't viewed the
data, but I think we've come up with a likely scenario. Not knowing
where to set things exactly yet, I made the decision to not impose a
motor voltage limit via the Zilla. Keep in mind, the fully charged pack
sits at 378 volts. Since the mayhem happened in the burnout pit, here's
what I and others think happened.....the series-parallel shift toggled
on, the motors went way up in rpm as did the tires, resulting in a
sudden wall of carbon-rich tire smoke (Chris Robison's concept) that
migrated towards the motor compartment. As the motor voltage went sky
high and with things on the verge of arcing, the addition of the thick
tire smoke enveloping the rear motor section was the final straw that
lit off the molten metal parts. We'll know a lot more after Mark gives
us a data report, and, after Jim and Matt do a post mortem on the motor
this week. It's a curable condition that should be easily taken care of
with a motor voltage limit imposed in the series mode, and, with the
steering wheel button connected to the Zilla to momentarily toggle-off
the series-parallel shift feature (Tim and Mark's idea) during a burnout.
Tim and I are already discussing ways to get the car even quicker, and
we now both believe it's possible to get into the high 11's some day
without gutting the car, without tubbing the rear body, without wrinkle
walls, and all the while keeping the car in the spirit of being street
legal in all ways. We were in a hurry to get the car completed so a few
items were left out that we will be putting back in, like the horn we
moved but didn't relocate and a working reverse circuit. Other than this
these two items and a functioning rear seat, the car is still a stock
Datsun 1200 sedan with all its original body panels, bumpers, window
glass, interior panels, dash, carpets, etc.
More to come later....
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
'We blow things up, so you don't have to'
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I went pretty rapidly through two sets of SCS225's in my Rabbit
conversion and then replaced them with EV-145's. These batteries are
completely different. The SCS225 is a Marine/Deep Cycle and the
EV-145 is a 12V Golf Car style. The Trojan equivalent to the EV-145
is the 5SHP.
The SCS225 is cheaper, has better rated energy density and less
internal resistance. It runs out of charge suddenly, potentially
making it hard to get home, whereas the EV-145 gradually loses power.
I think the EV-145 gives up less capacity in cold weather. The SCS225
has a much shorter lifespan in EV use, and in my experience is prone
to sudden failure, whereas the EV-145 loses capacity slowly over a
long period of time.
I would not again use SCS225's in an EV.
Ken Olum
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At 9/6/2005 04:34 AM, you wrote:
I would like to start researching converting my sailboat aux. engine
to electric.
You might check out http://ecyclemarine.com/ as they have already
built systems for this.
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John Wayland wrote:
Mark Farver and the crew had a telemetry system hooked up that
recorded valuable data to plot graphs of the car's runs. Two from
Friday night's runs are up and can be viewed here:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/graphics/plots/
Some points of interest on the two plots that have been posted:
Runs 1 and 2 for Friday night are unavailable.. we were still getting
the bugs out and data was not captured. There is no speed or RPM
information becuase in the rush to finish the Zombie the motor RPM
sensor was forgotten. The time on the bottom is wholly inaccurate but I
will use it as a label to point out areas.
Run 3 (the first record setter) John did a solid burnout and the tires
were nice and sticky. Other than a slight tire slip at time=.75, Amps
(green line) shot up nicely to the 1500 amp motor limit and fell until
time=3.75 when the Zilla series/parallel switch occurred. A quick peak
to the 1800 parallel amp limit then falling until time=16. At time=16
(or approx 10.75 seconds really) motor voltage (blue) equals battery
voltage (orange). So for the last 2 seconds of the run the Zombie was
voltage limited and was no longer accelerating, just cruising at its max
speed.
This was the first time the Zombie had been used with automatic
series/parallel switching. The Zilla automatically switches when the
amps in series mode fall to approx 1/2 of the max amps in series mode.
(IIRC) John was quite surprised at how early this happened in the race,
about 3 seconds, much earlier than he would have manually switched.
Run 4 was done just as the track was closing, and John did not perform a
burnout. The effects are obvious as current rises rapidly until about
time=.5. The tires break free and current drops until about time=1.25
when the tires start to hook. At time=2 the tires have gripped again
and amps reach their max for the first time... Series/parallel is almost
.5 seconds late.. even so with the batteries hot the Zombie makes a
good, but not record setting run.
Notice how fast the Hawker's recover.. Starting out the pack is at about
370V... during the series parallel shift the hawkers recover to over
360V in less than .25 seconds. At the end of the race, after being
pulled down to nearly 160V they recover to nearly 350V in a fraction of
a second.
The data from the 5 recorded runs (we missed the first) at Woodburn is
still being pulled together. We added data from an accelerometer,
recording a peak of 3.3G's during one run, and 1.5G's most other runs.
I will post those plots to PlasmaBoyRacing.com as soon as possible.
Overall, I think gathering data during a race is proving extremely
valuable. Gone Postal with its higher number of variables (two drives,
gear choice on front drive) especially could benefit. I will have to
roll a turnkey Data gathering system during the winter.
As a final note: notice that in both runs the potbox (light blue) line
is held rock steady at 100% for the entire run. Now we have proof...the
Plasmaboy never, never lifts.
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David Roden wrote:
> Most people... dispose of a low-speed EV to do a conversion that
> is highway capable. Mark has come full circle now, from a Comuta-Car,
> to a convertered Geo Metro and then the Tracker, now back to an NEV
> type vehicle. From what I understand this was for a reason that's
> worth noting: The heavier vehicles had battery amortization costs
> that he felt were too high (even though they were flooded batteries).
I'm thinking along the same lines. I live in a small town. Most of my
driving is local; less than 10 miles round trip where the speed limit is
never over 40 mph. I have a Prius hybrid long trips, and it is clear
that nothing I build in my garage is going to be able the match it.
I thought back to what car "put America on wheels". It was the Ford
model T. It was slow, uncomfortable, unreliable -- but simple and cheap!
Today, the auto companies have abandoned such cars (no money it them).
But I think the need for such cars still exists. People are forced to
satisfy it with used cars, but they aren't all that cheap either. And
given the tremendous complexity of modern cars, cheap used cars are
often broken, and difficult and expensive to fix.
So I'm thinking... What if there was an EV "model T"? Simple, reliable,
with performance good enough for the usual around-town driving. And
above all, cheap (or Joe Average will ignore it).
Strangely enough, I think the old CitiCar/ComutaCar/ComutaVan is the
best example of this concept. They were simple, reliable, and cheap.
They were fully street-legal and licensed as normal cars (not NEVs). My
ComutaVan had a top speed of 55 mph, allowing (careful) freeway use.
These cars came out after the 1974 Arab Oil Embargo, and thousands were
quickly sold. I see a similar situation today; if CitiCars were
available now, they would sell fast!
But, these old designs were tragically flawed. Built in a hurry by a
tiny inexperienced company, they had *lots* of design errors and quality
problems. The concept was good, but the implementation was bad.
Then I think back to the "best buy" EV I have ever seen. It was a 1916
Detroit Electric. 30 mph top speed, 80 mile range. Over 50% of its
weight was in batteries; 18 6v (the original Edison cells were still
being used!) 5.5hp compound-wound motor. 5-step contactor controller.
Regenerative braking. 30" high-pressure low-rolling resistance tires.
Huge, comfortable 5-passenger interior. Silent, smooth, reliable, easy
to drive... all for just $2700 new. This car makes modern NEVs look like
toys.
So what if the engineering elegance and fit-and-finish of the antique
Detroit was combined with the CitiCar/ComutaCar/ComutaVan components.
You could have an elegant, comfortable, reliable EV built out of common,
ordinary components. Buy an old junked Citicar just to get the title.
"Restore" it like a Detroit Electric!
The Detroit is minivan-sized and over 6 feet tall (people could wear top
hats inside). 3/4 scale would be about the size of the CitiCar.
The Detroit might actually be more streamlined; looking down from above
the body cross-section is rounded (rather than horizontally rounded like
most cars).
Copy the Detroit controller, but use a modern golf cart sepex motor and
rear axle. Change to skinny motorcycle-like tires to lower rolling
resistance. Keep the batteries low and under the seat for low C.G. Put a
solar panel on the roof. You could even install a 120vac air conditioner
(running on an inverter) for heating and air conditioning.
What do you think?
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Sep 6, 2005, at 5:28 AM, Rick Barnes wrote:
Any tips on how to view the videos (AVI format)?
I cannot view the videos on John Waylands web site either (MOV format).
I am running Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10. Are you guys using
Macs? Or something like Linux?
The movies on John Wayland's web site require Quicktime. Apple makes
versions for both Mac and Windows. I just watched all the movies on his
site this morning.
The other video from Christopher Robinson requires DivX. I can't get it
to work on my Mac. Perhaps because it requires version 6, which is not
yet available for Mac, or because the file is corrupted. DivX 5.2.1
plug in for Quicktime reports an unexpected end of file error.
Paul
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On Sep 6, 2005, at 4:41 AM, Robert Chew wrote:
Does anyone know the peukert's number for this particular battery i
really need it to get my available capacity for that battery at
different discharge rates.
The SCS225 has a Peukert's exponent is 1.25.
The 5SHP has a Peukert's exponent of 1.15.
Paul
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