EV Digest 4667
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: OTMAR and Others
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Contactor Controller (was "Re: Shunt motor regen setup")
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Alternator for psuedo-regen (was "Re: Shunt motor regen setup")
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OTMAR and Others
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EMF flashover was White Zombie Fireball Graph
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ADC 9inch troubleshooting
by "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nick?=" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV commercial
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Frustr. of AC vs. DC; batt. tech. for newbies; philosophizing
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Alternator for psuedo-regen (was "Re: Shunt motor regen setup")
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Iota DC/DC Decision
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EMF flashover was White Zombie Fireball Graph
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Contactor Controller (was "Re: Shunt motor regen setup")
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OTMAR and Others
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Lexus commercial
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery choices
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Iota converter. Will this work?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OTMAR and Others
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Dude:
It is pretty simple to shop on eBay. Just type IOTA on the search line....
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-IOTA-DLS-55-Power-Converter-RV-MARINE-HAM-CB_W0QQite
mZ4572567362QQcategoryZ50073QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-IOTA-DLS-55-Power-Converter-RV-MARINE-HAM-CB_W0QQite
mZ4573062189QQcategoryZ50073QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/45-amp-IOTA-DLS45-power-converter-converts-110v-to-12v_W
0QQitemZ4573144252QQcategoryZ111103QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-IOTA-DLS-55-Power-Converter-RV-MARINE-HAM-CB_W0QQite
mZ4573185397QQcategoryZ50073QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-IOTA-DLS-55-Power-Converter-RV-MARINE-HAM-CB_W0QQite
mZ4573737428QQcategoryZ50073QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/IOTA-DLS30-BATTERY-CHARGER-POWER-SUPPLY-12V-30AMP_W0QQit
emZ5806108137QQcategoryZ48708QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/IOTA-DLS30-BATTERY-CHARGER-POWER-SUPPLY-12V-30AMP_W0QQit
emZ5806117125QQcategoryZ48708QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I shouldn't have to hold your hand here. This link will teach you about
searching on eBay:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/find/index.html?fromFeature=Search%20Results
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:33 AM
To: Rick Barnes; [email protected]
Subject: Re: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
Got a URL? LR............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 5:40 AM
Subject: RE: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
>I bought a 55 amp 120 VAC model on eBay for $90. I am using it with a
>120 V pack, works fine. I do not need 55 amps for my car, it runs cool
>and the smart fan does not even need to run. This extra capacity may
>come in handy some day (possibly a sound system).
>
> Rick Barnes
> Aloha, OR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 12:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Iota DC/DC. What to use.
>
>
> Roderick Wilde is using a 120v Iota (30amp version) in Gone Postal.
> Gone Postal is 240vdc as far as I know. Others have used the same
> model at lesser voltages. One person said they used the 220v Iota at
144vdc. Does
> it make a difference? Why are these devices working at obviously varied
> voltages and above and below their ratings? I'd like to pay the least
> amount for one of these devices. I think I can get by with 30 amps.
> That one is close to 100 dollars. Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would shop for the computer CPU water coolers, they run on 12VDC.
http://computers.listings.ebay.com/Fans-Heatsinks-Cooling_Liquid-Water-Cooli
ng-System_W0QQcatrefZC4QQfromZR10QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQftsZ2QQsa
catZ80150QQsocmdZListingItemList
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cwarman
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 3:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: OTMAR and Others
Hey guys,
I got my Zilla 1k today and reading the manual about the cooling aspect
i had a question....
I found this link
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=35
It appears to have the pump built right into a reservoir, it states in
teh handbook if the reservoir
was big enough one may not have to cool the water any further. What do
you guys think about
this setup ?
Cwarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Stephenson wrote:
> To smooth the jumps with a contactor controller, what do you all
> think of this approach?
> http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html
It will result in unequal discharge of the batteries, and thus requires
more batteries for a given range. It also uses more contactors than the
more typical series/parallel circuits.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Stephenson wrote:
>
> Good to know - that was going to be a later question. But I'm wondering if
> the belt-driven alternator's braking effect *when engaged* would be
> significant ("About like a light foot on the brake" or "It'll stop you
> dead!" is the sort of guesstimate I'm hoping for).
An alternator is around 60-70% efficient. You can estimate the braking
force from the output power it is delivering. For instance, a 12v 60amp
alternator can also deliver 60amps at 120v. 60a x 120v = 7200 watts.
7200w / (746hp/w) = 9.65 horsepower. At 70% efficiency that will take
9.65hp / 0.7 = 13.78 mechanical horsepower.
How fast this will slow you down depends on the weight of your EV. Since
this horsepower might accellerate you from 0-60 mph in 20 sec, it would
also decellerate you from 60-0 mph in about the same time.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it;s for 120v and I'll bet that's ac , so you would need an inverter , one
that if it shut down becuse of a brown out ( 12v batt dips to bleow 10.5 )
would come back on without having to be truned off and on ,most do not come
back on till you trun them off and on . This may or may not be a problem
for you , it has for me in the past and now I'm using a plane fuel pump that
runs off 12v ,,, I was looking at a camper rv water pump in J C witney , but
ended up with the nosie but not to nosie fuel pump which I don't hear when
driving but lets me know the trucks on when sitting .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <
Hey guys,
I got my Zilla 1k today and reading the manual about the cooling aspect i
had a question....
I found this link
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=35
It appears to have the pump built right into a reservoir, it states in teh
handbook if the reservoir
was big enough one may not have to cool the water any further. What do you
guys think about
this setup ?
Cwarman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the data Mark; being this is an event that is hard to capture it's
pretty cool to see it on paper, at least for me. I will make sure the twins
are equipped with the tach sencer when returned to John. As I'm new to the
game, I have only one other reference, which is on one of Johns old brush
rings. This one holder was arced at the corner ear areas both top and bottom
where they are closest to the comm. They were just two small-arced areas with
nothing removed from the actual brass material. Having removed the ears (so to
speak) from his holders and glyptaling the brass, the EMF was still able to
flashover. The damage I saw was located not on any type of ear area now, but
instead arced directly to the holder itself removing a nice amount of material.
I was wondering today on how to fuse this nasty little demon. If we can't
remove the problem then I was thinking that by running a small wire attached to
the holder by a diode or fuse, would it attract the voltage to an "arc here"
area and not to the fragile sheet brass the holder, or the soft underbelly of a
poor spring? Im thinking these would act like small little lightning rods to
divert the damage to an area that could take it or even better yet fuse it.
How cool would it have been to replace a screw in part and race some more?
Anyways, all comments welcome.
On a final note, Ive located a digital camera so Ill document the whole
repair process and will capture lots of damaged parts pictures for John to post
for the sick minded. ; )
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Still working on processing the rest of the data, but I figured I'd post
the most interesting stuff first.
During the Zombie's burnout before its final run of the day at Woodburn
2005 onlookers were treated to bright flashes under the car. Later
examination showed one brush housing had arced over. (The Zombie would
still go on to make a decent run with only 15 or 16 brushes in contact)
Without RPM data I can not make a positive diagnosis.. but here is the
graph and my interpretation. Comments are encouraged.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/graphics/plots/zombie-woodburn-2005-run6-burnout.png
or http://tinyurl.com/9q6vz
It appears the burnout pit was quite slippery. Without sufficient
traction the Zilla ran PWM up to 100% trying to get the amps up. John
never set a motor voltage limit on the Zilla, so at 100% PWM the motors
saw 287VDC.
Even with the high voltage the motors (and tires) were spinning up
rapidly and amps begin to fall off. John was not using the Zilla's drag
race mode, which allows the driver to override SP shifting during a
burnout and the Zilla commanded a SP shift.
287 in series mode (287/2 = 143.5VDC) is still well within the accepted
voltage limit of John's motors. The Zilla's DAQ mode only records about
10 times per second, so we have no clear indication what happened
between samples. I would guess that as the Zilla went to 0% in
preparation for the SP shift the 500amps circulating in motor loop were
forced thru the flyback diodes, and momentary voltage spiked
considerably higher.
Fortunately the Zilla was still in its blanking period in preparation
for the shift, and the arc was quickly extinguished as current in the
motor loop dropped to zero.
I will post the remaining data as it becomes available.
Have fun...
Mark Farver
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm having trouble sending to the list, so pardon any duplication.
Hi Jim,
There is one more thing that I forgot to mention, that might make a
difference:
After I had the truck towed to the tranny shop, I was demonstrating the
problem to the mechanic and as it was twitching and jerking around, it
suddenly started working normally, at which point it was driven onto the
lift in the shop. After they worked on it, it ran normally just long
enough for the mechanic to get stuck around the block when it started
doing the same thing again during the test drive.
Does that make any sense?
Nick
Jim Husted wrote:
> When did the problem occur? If you can't get it wound at a good price local
> let me know and I'll look into what I'd need to get for one. First off pull
> the motor and then pull the armature and drive plate assy. from the motor.
> Don't even bother to try to remove the plate and bring it down to a local
> shop and ask them to growl test it. Maybe just maybe you have a short
> somewhere in the mica slots or along the riser and it can be undercut and
> removed. To answer your question sometimes windings just short out and I
> have seen many a new looking armature be shorted. Actually, having just went
> to your website you are not that far from me. I used to fish the Trinity
> river up by Burnt Ranch / Greys Falls area when I was younger. Be nice to
> swing by pick it up and drop a line while I was close, lol. As I am just
> diagnosing from description lets get that arm tested before you bumm out to
> hard and go from there. If in fact the armature windings are shorted, and a
> rewind jus!
t ain't in the budget (when is it) and you can spare some down time ship it up
to me and I'll try a couple of techniques I've used to successfully remove
shorted windings for others where money was a huge factor. I know it feels
like someone just shot your dog, but keep a stiff upper lip and lets all hope
for the best. Let me know if can help
>
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> How did I get a short in my armature? Could it be caused by corrosion? I
> don't have much of that, but all I've got is a Curtis 1221C controller, so I
> really don't think I've been over amping this thing....
>
> Nick
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>> From: Jim Husted Subject: Re: ADC 9inch troubleshooting
>> Sent: 06 Sep '05 23:27
>>
>> You have a text book short in your armature. I bet my last dollar that when
>> you pull the armature it will show that on a growler. I hate to break the
>> news but you have a hurt armature in need of rewinding. Hopefully you in
>> fact did need the bearings and at least that is now in good shape. Hope
>> this helps please keep me posted as I can use this as a tool to help me
>> diagnose online problems for others.
>>
>> Jim Husted
>> Hi-Torque Electric
>>
>> Nick wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am in need of some troubleshooting assistance. I have a 1992 S-10
>> conversion with an ADC 9inch motor and about 16,000 miles on it. When I try
>> to drive it, the motor will only move in short jerks and the truck does not
>> move. I took it to a transmission shop, which checked it out; they
>> discovered that the clutch and pilot bearing were very worn which they
>> replaced. They also checked the adapter hub on the end of the motor, but it
>> appeared to be fine - it was still tight, and the key was still in place and
>> did not appear to be sheared. After reassembling it, the problem is still
>> the same. I have removed and inspected four of the brushes and visually
>> inspected the other four, and they are still over an inch long and the
>> spring tension seems to be fine. I also measured the resistance across the
>> armature while rotating the motor by hand, and I didn't notice any
>> flutuations. The commutator does not appear to have any unusual wear on it,
>> but the problem persists. I also operate!
d the motor directly with a single 6-volt battery while watching the
commutator and it moved in the same jerky fashion, just slower. I didn't see
any sparks or any indication of arcing, although I did notice a faint odor like
electronics getting hot.
>>
>> The transmission mechanic suggested it may be a bad bearing in the motor,
>> but the motor turns smoothly by hand. Another member of the Humboldt
>> Electric Vehicle Association suggested that it could be a problem with the
>> field windings. Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Nick
>> www.heva.org
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, how about the EAA, NEDRA, CommuterCars, ACP, and all the little EV
shops and parts makers get together and run a TV add to show everyone!
Maybe Gadget or Clooney or someone can get together
a professional crew to film and edit it up?!
Nice little 30 second clip with the Zombie, Tango, T-Zero and as many
other fun and spirited BEV's "Playin" leap frog on the salt flats.
Have all the sponsers decals pealing off the various EVs due to the
outragious wind resistance to give them each their second of fame.
.. PFC Chargers .. (whoosh)
....... Zilla Controllers ... (wiz-zip)
Show everyone the kinds of things that happen at woodburn and PowerofDC.
Start it out with some ommonous soundtrack fading in with. (Thud Thud..)
?!?! SO YOU THINK YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT ELECTRIC VEHICLES DO YA ?!?!
Quick shots of some solar racers, commutacars, etc...
!?!? We're not talkin bout no wimpy econo-gas burning hyrbids !?!?
Quick shots of some hyrbids getting their doors blown off by some EVs
?!?! YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET, WE MAKE VIPERS AND VETTS CRY ?!?!
Bring out all the good footage of some screaming drag and autoX EVs
End it with a nice memorial fade out for Roger Hedlund
who made his 100mph run more than 32 years ago!
Force feed it to them in a nation wide prime time TV add!!!
.oO( Notice: No gas was burned in the production of this Ad )
L8r
Ryan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Obviously because they would look really bad having such EVs blow their
> doors of. They had to go with something that would make BEVs look bad in
> order for them to look good. The problem is that too many people will
> believe it...
>
> Jeff Wilson
> USA (Ret)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Cover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 7:28 AM
> To: EVList
> Subject: Lexus commercial
>
>
> I saw the Lexus hybrid commercial this weekend, the one they used the
> Sparrows, solar racers and other EVs in. It wasn't too bad, just lumped all
> the EV into one bucket. I only saw it once and didn't realize this was the
> one until it was half over.
>
> They show a group of all EV going down the road in formation and the Lexus
> weaving in and out of them and passing them by. It implies that EVs have no
> performance. How come they didn't include White Zombie, Goldie, or any of
> the other EV's we know so well?
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I think there's a better way to look at the problem. Higher
voltage is not required, you could put more cells in parallel for a
lower voltage higher current solution, but it won't change the fact that
each cell has a fixed power delivery limit.
The problem is that while they have the energy density in terms of both
weight and volume- watt-hrs per kg and watt-hrs per cubic centimeter-
they don't have the power delivery capacity in terms of watts per kg or
watts per cc, or even more relevant, watts per $. That's a very useful
way to look at it- if you need 30 KW peak power you're going to need "x"
many cells of a particular spec regardless of whether they're in series
or parallel. Or of course it could be viewed in terms of you're going
to need "x" kg, "x" cubic meters, or "x" $$$ of cells to get the needed
power delivery capability. The ladder often being the most important.
Arranging the cells to get the needed voltage is of course another issue
but it's a bit more flexible. And of course the net energy capacity
must be useful enough to ensure the range meets your needs. In
lead-acid it seems like the power delivery capacity is generally a given
with a reasonably capacity but the ratio of energy density to power
delivery density is different for current LiPo tech.
There's those Maxwell ultracaps that might be able to help, but it sure
will take a lot of them. They have enormous power delivery capacity per
unit of size, but no capacity to speak of.
Danny
Bob Bath wrote:
Let's see if I've got this straight...
If we want longer range and less space/weight in our
rigs taken up by batteries, the current solution is to
move from flooded lead acid to LiPo.
But LiPos can't have hard current pulls. So we have
to compensate with higher voltages.
But our DC series wound (cheap) motors can't take the
higher voltages, but _are_ made for higher current.
So we upgrade to an AC controller and motor that does
_best_ with higher voltages & lower current.
But the LiPo batteries also need careful thermal
regulation on current both on driving, and on
charging. And the controllers in some cases need
water cooling, adding yet another layer of complexity.
In summary, we either drive a $6-9,000 DC floodie EV
with short range, or we drive a $50,000 AC LiPo EV
using some parts from corporations (Siemens, Metric
Mind), and others that either our fellow hobbyists are
cranking out, or which we cobble together from a
schematic ourselves.
Ummm, door number three, people? (Bide our time for
LiPo regulation to become more ubiquitous? Wait for
the Subaru and Mitsubishi EVs to hit the markets?)
Is that about where us on-roaders are, or am I missing
something after 6 years on the list?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can I suggest using a video format compatible with both Mac and PC? (is
there such a thing?)
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: White Zombie video, Re: Woodburn NEDRA Nationals
On Sep 6, 2005, at 5:28 AM, Rick Barnes wrote:
> Any tips on how to view the videos (AVI format)?
>
> I cannot view the videos on John Waylands web site either (MOV
> format).
>
> I am running Windows XP and Windows Media Player 10. Are you guys
> using Macs? Or something like Linux?
>
The movies on John Wayland's web site require Quicktime. Apple makes
versions for both Mac and Windows. I just watched all the movies on his
site this morning.
The other video from Christopher Robinson requires DivX. I can't get it
to work on my Mac. Perhaps because it requires version 6, which is not
yet available for Mac, or because the file is corrupted. DivX 5.2.1
plug in for Quicktime reports an unexpected end of file error.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would an ~90% efficient Etek/Lemco style, direct drive, PM motor do
during regen for % efficiency? Operating as a generator during regen,
my guess is better than the belt driven alternators' 70%. Anyone have
some data? Thoughts?
Tim
Lee Hart wrote:
Tim Stephenson wrote:
Good to know - that was going to be a later question. But I'm wondering if
the belt-driven alternator's braking effect *when engaged* would be
significant ("About like a light foot on the brake" or "It'll stop you
dead!" is the sort of guesstimate I'm hoping for).
An alternator is around 60-70% efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded Message
From:"Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:"Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>Subject:Iota DC/DC DecisionDate:Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:35:56
-0700
Plain Text Attachment [ Download File | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
I've heard that the Iota 120 version works at a very high voltage. The
220version works at 144 I've heard. What is the consensis? Should a 144v
vehicle get the 220 or 120 version? My Controller came and it is rated by the
rebuilder at 700amps.120 to 144vdc.Lawrence
RhodesBassoon/ContrabassoonReedmakerBook 4/5 doublerElectric Vehicle & Solar
Power [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi Lawrence,
First off if I murder this this format here it's my first attempt at digest
mode.
I am currently on vacation until next monday. I'm hoping I will have my
hairball back when I return and I can put everything back together and get the
car
going as it should finally. I will then be able to let you know how the IOTA
fairs
at 144 volts under load and such. So if you can hold out for another week or s
I can tell you for sure how it's going to work.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Without RPM data I can not make a positive diagnosis.. but here is the
graph and my interpretation. Comments are encouraged.
Watching the video I have to completely retract my theory. The
flashover occurs much later in the burnout than my theory would explain
(the series parallel shift occured at about x=1).
The video shows two flashes, one at about 3 seconds, and one about 1
second later.... looking at the graph you can see two drops in the motor
voltage at about x=3.5 and x=4.25.
At that point motor voltage was a much more reasonable 164V, but the
motors were in parallel, so each saw the full voltage.
164VDC is getting into the danger area... but it is still not fully
explainable.
Odd..
All of the other DAQ data collected for Woodburn is now online. Still
have to upload the acceleration data.. that will take a little more time
as I try to recall how to calculate speed from acceleration...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I like this approach a lot! I've used a variation of it on my EM for
about 1500 miles. It is an inexpensive way to get more voltage steps from a
given number of batteries since it uses low cost (dare I say "cheap") spst
contactors. The imbalance to the batteries tends to balance out due to the
speed variations in normal urban driving. All the batteries tend to get
used about the same. If I do notice a place on the throttle that feels a
little mushy, I just avoid that spot on the throttle until I get home for a
recharge.
I am interested to see how long my Power Sonic batteries will last, since
they are not talked about much on the list. After 1500 miles and maybe 200
recharges, no sign of capacity loss yet.
I use about 20 cents of electrical energy to get to and from work, vs. $4 it
would cost me now in the minivan. I like that even more! Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Contactor Controller (was "Re: Shunt motor regen setup")
Tim Stephenson wrote:
To smooth the jumps with a contactor controller, what do you all
think of this approach?
http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html
It will result in unequal discharge of the batteries, and thus requires
more batteries for a given range. It also uses more contactors than the
more typical series/parallel circuits.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Yes, the braking is abrupt with the contactor and permanent magnet motor
combination. When I had it on the minibike, I soon adjusted by staying at
speed longer and braking closer to the stop signs. That's probably not as
efficient as the coasting strategy used to save ev energy, but it was a lot
of fun. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Shunt motor regen setup
Mark Thomasson wrote:
As another option, an easy way to do regen is with a permanent
magnet DC motor and a contactor controller. While cruising at a
given voltage and speed, drop down to a lower voltage and the
motor regens down to the speed corresponding to that voltage level.
The more the voltage is dropped, the stronger the regen. No
reversing contactor is needed. Simple and elegant.
Yes, that works. The main drawback is your control of the regen (and
motoring) current is very abrupt. A good PM motor like the Lynch, Lemco,
or Etek tries hard to turn at a constant speed (proportional to the
applied voltage. This means when you change voltage step (say, 24v to
48v), there is a drastic increase in motor current and a strong "lurch"
as it tries to instantly accellerate to its 48v rpm. Likewise, when you
switch back down from 48v to 24v you get a huge regen current and abrupt
braking as the motor tries to instantly slow down to its 24v rpm.
Series motors aren't nearly so abrupt; their current (and thus torque)
changes less than 2:1 for a 2:1 voltage step.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Great idea, Lee.
What would your target selling price be?
Would you use flooded golf cart batteries?
Would you use a boat anchor Lester charger or a new high frequency one?
Marc Kohler
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: EV Feeding Frenzy
David Roden wrote:
Most people... dispose of a low-speed EV to do a conversion that
is highway capable. Mark has come full circle now, from a Comuta-Car,
to a convertered Geo Metro and then the Tracker, now back to an NEV
type vehicle. From what I understand this was for a reason that's
worth noting: The heavier vehicles had battery amortization costs
that he felt were too high (even though they were flooded batteries).
I'm thinking along the same lines. I live in a small town. Most of my
driving is local; less than 10 miles round trip where the speed limit is
never over 40 mph. I have a Prius hybrid long trips, and it is clear
that nothing I build in my garage is going to be able the match it.
I thought back to what car "put America on wheels". It was the Ford
model T. It was slow, uncomfortable, unreliable -- but simple and cheap!
Today, the auto companies have abandoned such cars (no money it them).
But I think the need for such cars still exists. People are forced to
satisfy it with used cars, but they aren't all that cheap either. And
given the tremendous complexity of modern cars, cheap used cars are
often broken, and difficult and expensive to fix.
So I'm thinking... What if there was an EV "model T"? Simple, reliable,
with performance good enough for the usual around-town driving. And
above all, cheap (or Joe Average will ignore it).
Strangely enough, I think the old CitiCar/ComutaCar/ComutaVan is the
best example of this concept. They were simple, reliable, and cheap.
They were fully street-legal and licensed as normal cars (not NEVs). My
ComutaVan had a top speed of 55 mph, allowing (careful) freeway use.
These cars came out after the 1974 Arab Oil Embargo, and thousands were
quickly sold. I see a similar situation today; if CitiCars were
available now, they would sell fast!
But, these old designs were tragically flawed. Built in a hurry by a
tiny inexperienced company, they had *lots* of design errors and quality
problems. The concept was good, but the implementation was bad.
Then I think back to the "best buy" EV I have ever seen. It was a 1916
Detroit Electric. 30 mph top speed, 80 mile range. Over 50% of its
weight was in batteries; 18 6v (the original Edison cells were still
being used!) 5.5hp compound-wound motor. 5-step contactor controller.
Regenerative braking. 30" high-pressure low-rolling resistance tires.
Huge, comfortable 5-passenger interior. Silent, smooth, reliable, easy
to drive... all for just $2700 new. This car makes modern NEVs look like
toys.
So what if the engineering elegance and fit-and-finish of the antique
Detroit was combined with the CitiCar/ComutaCar/ComutaVan components.
You could have an elegant, comfortable, reliable EV built out of common,
ordinary components. Buy an old junked Citicar just to get the title.
"Restore" it like a Detroit Electric!
The Detroit is minivan-sized and over 6 feet tall (people could wear top
hats inside). 3/4 scale would be about the size of the CitiCar.
The Detroit might actually be more streamlined; looking down from above
the body cross-section is rounded (rather than horizontally rounded like
most cars).
Copy the Detroit controller, but use a modern golf cart sepex motor and
rear axle. Change to skinny motorcycle-like tires to lower rolling
resistance. Keep the batteries low and under the seat for low C.G. Put a
solar panel on the roof. You could even install a 120vac air conditioner
(running on an inverter) for heating and air conditioning.
What do you think?
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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FWIW, a friend of mine is doing pretty well with a coolant booster pump from
a V6 Volkswagen. He says it cost about $100.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 6 Sep 2005 at 14:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> They had to go with something that would make BEVs look bad in
> order for them to look good.
I don't think this is all bad by any means. Unlike some others, at least
they're not dismissing EVs or pretending they don't exist. The very fact
that they included them in the spot indicates they acknowledge them as
competitors.
Some of the viewers who see this ad just might think, "Hmm, I wonder where I
could get one of these EVs."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 6 Sep 2005 at 11:36, Lee Hart wrote:
> Then I think back to the "best buy" EV I have ever seen. It was a 1916
> Detroit Electric. ... all for just $2700 new.
That was probably a good buy for its time, when all automobiles were mostly
hand-built. But adjusted for inflation, that $2,700 would be $46,550 today.
If a high-end converter were to build a limited-production luxury EV based
on a good quality midsize car such as a Toyota Camry, that's pretty close to
what I'd expect it to cost.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 6 Sep 2005 at 10:11, Paul G. wrote:
> The movies on John Wayland's web site require Quicktime.
The Nedra2005 clip plays nicely with Quicktime Alternative v1.48 (which,
unlike the Genuine Article, doesn't nag you ;-).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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The SCS225 is not a high current battery. It was designed for trolling
motors at a 25 amp load.
According to BCI specs, an SCS225 should deliver only 300 80% cycles at such
a load (25 amps). Even if your EV requires only 25 amps at cruise (a very
efficient EV), cycle life will still be only 300. You'll get a year's worth
of use - if you're lucky. Its life will be pitifully short at higher
currents and/or at high temperatures. I've seen similar batteries choke in
a summer's worth of use in an early Solectria Force (180 amps peak).
OTOH, the 5SHP and EV-145 are higher current batteries, with construction
similar to golf car batteries. Even with everything else being equal, they
will last at least twice as long. Here's what Nawaz Qureshi, US Battery
electrochemist, said about the EV-145 in 1999:
"USBMC's EV-145 uses rectangular grids, just like all of the other "jumbo"
deep cycle products from all manufacturers of good batteries. On the bench
test the USBMC's EV-145 will go from 650 to 1000 BCI cycles."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Hi Alain,
A man walking his dog flagged me down on Lakeshore road Thursday morning while
I was on my way to work in the Skoda hatchback. It turns out he was David
Yates who writes for the Gazette. He wanted to do a story related to my
electric car and the high price of gasoline (which was about to reach a high of
$1.47/liter that day). He came to the house Friday night, just after the
Gazette photographer, Gordon, who arrived in a Smart car. The article appeared
in this morning's Gazette and it prompted a call from CJAD radio for a live
interview over the phone.
The article was headlined "Motorist gets a charge out of ignoring gas pumps"
The well composed picture included my 8 year-old daughter Melissa on her
electric 3-wheel scooter as well as me beside the open hood of the hatchback,
with the nose of the Prius and the Skoda pickup behind. The article
(unfortunately not online on the Gazette site) starts: "Douglas Hartley is the
envy of a lot of motorists these days. His daily commute to work - a round
trip of 25 kilometers - costs him a paltry 50 cents, thanks to the electric car
he bought three years ago." The article finished with many of the links I had
provided: www.evworld.com, video documentary: The End of Suburbia available
from www.globaloutlook.ca, www.after-oil.co.uk, www.vehiclevert.org, and the
EVDL.
Overall, I think it was some good exposure for EVs at a time when many people
are receptive.
Best Regards,
Doug
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http://search.ebay.com/Iota-55-DLS_W0QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsojsZ1QQssPageNameZRC0021
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Just run it through the heater core of your EV. That is if it still
functions. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 3:46 PM
Subject: OTMAR and Others
Hey guys,
I got my Zilla 1k today and reading the manual about the cooling aspect i
had a question....
I found this link
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=35
It appears to have the pump built right into a reservoir, it states in teh
handbook if the reservoir
was big enough one may not have to cool the water any further. What do you
guys think about
this setup ?
Cwarman
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Way to go Doug!
For those of you Windows or Mac based PC's that can view pictures, video
and even that new-fangled .html here is Doug's article:
http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/montreal/story.html?
id=023c0dc6-e42c-4094-b125-c38bddb71575
For those with *nix - oh well... :)
Go Canada!
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Hartley
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:59 PM
> To: Alain St-Yves
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
>
> Hi Alain,
>
> A man walking his dog flagged me down on Lakeshore road
> Thursday morning while I was on my way to work in the Skoda
> hatchback. It turns out he was David Yates who writes for
> the Gazette. He wanted to do a story related to my electric
> car and the high price of gasoline (which was about to reach
> a high of $1.47/liter that day). He came to the house Friday
> night, just after the Gazette photographer, Gordon, who
> arrived in a Smart car. The article appeared in this
> morning's Gazette and it prompted a call from CJAD radio for
> a live interview over the phone.
>
> The article was headlined "Motorist gets a charge out of
> ignoring gas pumps" The well composed picture included my 8
> year-old daughter Melissa on her electric 3-wheel scooter as
> well as me beside the open hood of the hatchback, with the
> nose of the Prius and the Skoda pickup behind. The article
> (unfortunately not online on the Gazette site) starts:
> "Douglas Hartley is the envy of a lot of motorists these
> days. His daily commute to work - a round trip of 25
> kilometers - costs him a paltry 50 cents, thanks to the
> electric car he bought three years ago." The article
> finished with many of the links I had provided:
> www.evworld.com, video documentary: The End of Suburbia
> available from www.globaloutlook.ca, www.after-oil.co.uk,
> www.vehiclevert.org, and the EVDL.
>
> Overall, I think it was some good exposure for EVs at a time
> when many people are receptive.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Doug
>
>
--- End Message ---
