EV Digest 4709
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Catch the last bus (EV for sale)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What charger to use?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Anybody know this outfit?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fest-ev-a project update
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fest-ev-a project update
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of the
modern world.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fluke Digital Multimeters
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Anybody know this outfit?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Anybody know this outfit?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Fest-ev-a project update
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of the
modern world.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Catch the last bus (EV for sale)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Coax
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) China Pacific Trading Company
by "Ralph Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Question about battery connectors (Was: Re: Crimping cables!, getting
closer!)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Catch the last bus (EV for sale)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The car chassis needs to be grounded for personnel safety.
The green wire in the line cord is connected to case and the green wire in
the DC cable.
If the car chassis is not grounded, it can be several hundred volts from
ground producing a severe shock to someone who touches the car.
Typically, the green wire is used to safety ground the chassis. The red and
black wires supply the AC voltage whereas the white wire is neutral for any
120 VAC loads. The white wire and green wire are connected to ground at the
breaker panel.
The PFC chargers do not have any 120 VAC internal loads and therefore
operate with the white wire unconnected.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: PFC Ground and Pack Negative (was RE: Russco vs Zivan vs PF)
> Rich,
> A while back you wrote:
> > What I want in a leaky enviroment is the charger case insulated from the
Car
> > chassis, But VERY solidly plug bonded to AC ground and earth, using
the
> > Green wire in the AC Cord feed.
> > This gives a short circuit path from the charger case to the breaker box
and
> > GFI. This gives you safety should the charger have a issue. This is
basicly
> > required by common sense if not the law.
>
> In the case of a car that was designed with a three wire charging
> system (240V, two hots and a ground), should I splice the AC cord
> green wire to the white wire?
>
> This is in a flooded EV (leaky environment). The charger is already
> electrically isolated from the chassis. I'm currently not using the
> AC cord green wire.
>
> Richard Kelly
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the seller listed the batteries as "lead acid" but I am wondering if
this is really accurate? Would have thought it should have had some form of
Ni-Cad. What was in the one you bought? Although I havnt been to FLA in 25 +
years I would consider a trip down there to get the thing if it had the
batts I am looking for. BTW, love your Cross Country on $1.00 a day plan. I
wanted to do something like this 5 years ago with a S-10 that was sitting at
Tennessee L&P figured to fly down, buy a genset at Home Depot to throw in
the back. Just me, a tool bag, my laptop and one of my sons. Drive back
across country, recharge whenever and wherever we could, post updates to a
web page and just have an adventure of a life time. Meet lots of interesting
people and have a lot of neat experiances. Maybe write a book about it. Hope
YOU get it done before life catches up with you, wish I had the time to go
along. You get to Phx stop by. Will find some juice for ya! And we got the
best high octane sunshine in the country. Regards David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: Catch the last bus (EV for sale)
> FYI--
>
> There is one last hybrid-electric bus going into its last day of auction
> on eBay--
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4574213708
>
> Or if the link is broken, search for "Broward" in eBay Motors.
>
> This is the last of eight hybrid-electric buses that were auctioned off
> by Broward county. I bought mine early, non-operational, and am in the
> process of bringing it back to life. The current auction is for a bus
> that actually still runs, per the seller (although it is missing its
> APU, the Capstone microturbine).
>
> These buses were orphaned when the Chattanooga company that made them
> went out of business (theirs was a sad story of support failure, shoddy
> production, unrealistic fleet expectations, and reduced emissions
> standards which made EV fleets less appealing):-(
>
> They do have tons of Solectria stuff, with dual AC55's, UMOC445TF
> controller, 24 Deka GelTech batteries (dead, most likely), DC-DC
> converter, etc.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two other differences between cheap and good chargers are:
1) how they behave with an undervoltage or shorted battery (trickle,
regulate or fail) and,
2) how much current they put out just before the battery hits acceptance
voltage.
The first item affects reliability and the second affects charge time.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
> The difference between a cheap stupid charger and a expensive smart one
> lies in what it does during the last 20% or so of the charge cycle.
> Almost all consumer product chargers slow down their charging rate as
> the battery approaches full; but they don't actually measure or regulate
> just how full the battery really is. The assumption is that the consumer
> wants the battery "as full as possible", so the charger keeps right on
> trickling current in until the battery is overflowing.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always wanted to do something like that!
So, if you doubled the array size you could charge in 1 day!
Though about deployable canopies? Need some shade for the
patio when you're parked anyway, might aswell make them work to.
Might also add come little wind generators, still "solar" power.
L8r
Ryan
Meta Bus wrote:
> Yes, that was a typo/brain fart. I meant 8 amps for 5 hours, or an
> accumulation of 40ah, into a pack with nominal 100ah (C/20). That means
> about 2 1/2 sunny days to accumulate enough for a one-hour drive
> (possible with the MPPT charge controller mentioned by Rush).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 04:53:59PM -0700, Sherry Boschert wrote:
<..snip..>
> Anybody know these folks? I'm skeptical of the claim
> that they get 125 miles on lead acid batteries. I
> haven't called him yet.
Yes, this claim seems highly suspect, however not impossible.
Note that they first mention cars that go 25-35 MPH on there landing page.
If you load a full size EV up with lead acid batteries and then limit it to
25 mph, it seems like you might be able to swing a range like this.
I noted that somebody else indicated that they might be using Thunder Sky
Liion cells. This seems improbable based on the estimated $450 pack
replacement.
>From the index page on www.fevehicle.com:
"Our batteries can run in 2 years. The cost to replace them is about $450.00."
Sounds par for a cheap PbA.
Thanks!
> --- morgan tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: "morgan tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: our plug in EV
> > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:03:04 -0700
> >
> > Sherry:
> >
> > got your EVA information from your partners, they
> > shown a battery car in the downtown last weeken.
> > introduce ourselfves, we are company in EV
> > experiment and production years.
<..snip..>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks a lot like an Aspire transmission. I've been told many parts are bolt
in compatable. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Fest-ev-a project update
Sparky looks good.
When you are done, your web-pages could be an instruction manual for
anyone who wanted to follow your lead.
Keep up the good work!
Stefano Landi wrote:
Hello everyone,
So what do you get when you decide to tackle an electric conversion of a
Ford Festiva on a shoestring budget with a garage full of household grade
tools? Well tired for one thing, a little frustrated and satisfaction
that I'm slowly accomplishing something special. I really am impressed by
many of the people on this list that have access to machine shops and
have the monetary wherewithall to carry out some of the more expensive
conversions. I'd love to be able to have that kind of money, but in my
case when I set about doing this conversion, the household CEO, aka the
wife, raised an eyebrow and asked me how much this would all cost. I had
to come up with an answer pretty quick and told her a figure of about
$4,500 CDN. So the challenge is on, to convert a Ford Festiva to an
electric vehicle capable of getting me to work and back (18 miles) every
day convincing both my wife and my non-believing friends that it can be
done. As you will see on my site, this conversion is fraught with all
sorts of problems and as it progresses it's almost turning into a
frame-off restore. Believe me I'm loving every minute of it. Just thought
you would all like to see the progress.
regards,
Stefano
http://fest-ev-a.slandi.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used Audi 4000 springs in the back of the Aspire. I just checked many
cars for GVW and took out the ones that were heavier and longer. Worked for
me. I think I used the rear springs from a Nissian 300zx for the front of
my Aspire. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Fest-ev-a project update
On 9/13/05, Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://fest-ev-a.slandi.net
Very good!
I had to laugh (sorry) at this bit though:
"The photo below shows the area where the current gas tank resides and
where the future battery pack will sit. I was very happy to see that this
area of the car is very solid and shows little rust damage. This is
excellent
as this part of the car will be bearing much of the weight of the
batteries."
Won't you be needing to cut out that one good bit of the car next, in
order to get the tall 6v batteries closer to the ground? Just a
thought :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:15:40 -0400, "David"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Any new energy source MUST follow that route. The existing
>> distribution infrastructure includes:
>>
>> Oil pipelines
>> natural gas pipelines
>> distillate pipelines
>> The natural gas pipelines
>> The electrical grid.
>> and on a more-or-less local level, petroleum tankers.
>>
>
>Oops! You forgot the most important one!
>
>The sun.
No, I only listed things that are practical.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you're doing car-type work then the Fluke 88 is hard to beat. Over
$300 retail, I think. If you can get that puppy for around $100,
where do I sign up :-)
John
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:27:03 -0500, Ryan Stotts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Today at school, the instructor said something about they can get us
>Fluke meters at a discounted price.
>
>He thought but wasn't for sure that maybe it was the "Fluke 77" model
>for like ~$100.
>
>I'm unsure if I'll get one or not, depending on the price and the model.
>
>When I find out what price and model, and if all the models are
>available or not, I'll ask if there is a limit on how many a person
>can get or not. I'll do that if anyone here wants one at the
>discounted price. If so, does anyone here maybe want a meter
>depending on what's available and the price?
>
>Let me know, or otherwise, I won't ask him if one person can buy more
>then one meter...
>
>What's the best meter for the money and the lowest price you've seen it at?
>
>http://us.fluke.com/usen/home/default.htm
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It certainly might be possible at low speeds. It is not unheard of at EV
endurance events. Many EV's can top 100 miles by going slow. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sherry Boschert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 4:53 PM
Subject: Anybody know this outfit?
The San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association had a
booth at the Sierra Club's convention last weekend,
after which I got the email below about an EV
conversion business.
Anybody know these folks? I'm skeptical of the claim
that they get 125 miles on lead acid batteries. I
haven't called him yet.
thanks,
Sherry
--- morgan tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "morgan tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: our plug in EV
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:03:04 -0700
Sherry:
got your EVA information from your partners, they
shown a battery car in the downtown last weeken.
introduce ourselfves, we are company in EV
experiment and production years.
our EVs take regular car bodies, chassis, but it is
no engine, no cooling system, no gas tank.
we add our lead acid batteries, motor and other
parts on.
our first EV came out in the year 2000. this EV
still is the good condition.
Our EV run 125 miles in single charge, cost about
$1.00 on the electrcity( 14 difference in the meter
) in this 125 miles range.
when we make an option to, add a small generator(
when it is running, the generator continue to charge
the batteries).
it ran up to the range in 310 miles.
do your group like with me to build these plug in E
vehicles?
we can build them like the NEV models or like the
gasoline cars run on the freeway.
Our EV speed can go up to 70 miles per hour.
not much money to build our EV, about $6,500 can
make a 4-6 passenger seats EV.
we have our site: www.fevehicle.com
Morgan
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I live close by. I'm on it. I already emailed them. Will call them
tomorrow. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: Anybody know this outfit?
I've never heard of them, but perusing their website I can say that all
the pictures were taken in Mainland China. The pictures they show of the
batteries look to me like Thundersky's Lithium batteries, not lead-acid.
I also think I've seen the bus pictures before - I got to them from the
Thundersky site somehow. Whether they are legit or not I can't say but
seems they want to figure out how to import ev's from china into the us.
David
On Sep 13, 2005, at 4:53 PM, Sherry Boschert wrote:
The San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association had a
booth at the Sierra Club's convention last weekend,
after which I got the email below about an EV
conversion business.
Anybody know these folks? I'm skeptical of the claim
that they get 125 miles on lead acid batteries. I
haven't called him yet.
thanks,
Sherry
--- morgan tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "morgan tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: our plug in EV
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:03:04 -0700
Sherry:
got your EVA information from your partners, they
shown a battery car in the downtown last weeken.
introduce ourselfves, we are company in EV
experiment and production years.
our EVs take regular car bodies, chassis, but it is
no engine, no cooling system, no gas tank.
we add our lead acid batteries, motor and other
parts on.
our first EV came out in the year 2000. this EV
still is the good condition.
Our EV run 125 miles in single charge, cost about
$1.00 on the electrcity( 14 difference in the meter
) in this 125 miles range.
when we make an option to, add a small generator(
when it is running, the generator continue to charge
the batteries).
it ran up to the range in 310 miles.
do your group like with me to build these plug in E
vehicles?
we can build them like the NEV models or like the
gasoline cars run on the freeway.
Our EV speed can go up to 70 miles per hour.
not much money to build our EV, about $6,500 can
make a 4-6 passenger seats EV.
we have our site: www.fevehicle.com
Morgan
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.e-volks.com/geo.html This one is in good condition. For the
money it can't be beat. I'm sure they will sell you what you need if you
want to do much of your own fabrication. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Landi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fest-ev-a project update
Hi Tom,
Yes I'm a bit concerned as well, but I really don't have the money to get
anything better so I'm hoping to repair what needs to be repaired and see
what happens. In my case I think this project won't be ultimately the EV
in
the end, but the process by which I get there. A little bit like a T-shirt
a
friend of mine once sent me with the saying "Life is not journey, not a
guided tour." I'm hoping to have some fun with the car of course, but if I
end up selling it or worst removing all the EV parts in a few years and
having to scrap it so be it, I'm looking at this as a huge learning
experience, EV school as it were. The main concerns for me rust wise were
the shock mounts and the main frame rails. Both of these items seem to be
pretty solid in my glider so I've chosen to continue. I payed $350 Cdn for
the donor car so it wasn't a huge investment. So far I'm having a blast
taking everything apart as it's one big meccano set for me. I used to
tinker
alot with cars, but since buying newer vehicles with on-board computer
engine management systems I really haven't been able to toy around. This
project gives me a great opportunity to learn everything from fabricating
battery boxes, to wiring, to making motor mounts and the list goes on,
what
an experience. Again, yes I would love it if my EV was very functional or
even just moderately so, but it's the process that I'm living right now.
As for the amount I'm spending, well it's not much, but it was either not
do
it or do it for this amount. Again, my expectations are rather low really
and I'm taking a, "let's build it and see" attitude so even if it isn't a
100% success, I'll be happy knowing I did it instead of wondering for
another 12 years, which by the way is how long I've been wanting to do
this.
thanks for the interest and stay tuned as more fun stuff is on its way.
Stefano
On 9/13/05, Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks, Stefano, for sharing your story. I'm sure all of us wish your
project
succeeds. Please plan to continue sharing your story as your conversion
proceeds.
I'm concerned about rust which you mention several times. You shouldn't
try converting a vehicle with more than very minor rust problems. Get
another car if yours has severe rust. Confront your rust problems early
so
you can decide whether to keep your car or get another before investing
much
money or time.
$4500 Cdn isn't nearly enough money to do a good conversion even if you
have or can get most of the expensive parts like motor and controller
used.
Plan to spend at least twice that much.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Landi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Fest-ev-a project update
> Hello everyone,
>
> So what do you get when you decide to tackle an electric conversion of
> a
> Ford Festiva on a shoestring budget with a garage full of household
grade
> tools? Well tired for one thing, a little frustrated and satisfaction
that
> I'm slowly accomplishing something special. I really am impressed by
many
> of
> the people on this list that have access to machine shops and have the
> monetary wherewithall to carry out some of the more expensive
conversions.
> I'd love to be able to have that kind of money, but in my case when I
set
> about doing this conversion, the household CEO, aka the wife, raised an
> eyebrow and asked me how much this would all cost. I had to come up
> with
> an
> answer pretty quick and told her a figure of about $4,500 CDN. So the
> challenge is on, to convert a Ford Festiva to an electric vehicle
capable
> of
> getting me to work and back (18 miles) every day convincing both my
> wife
> and
> my non-believing friends that it can be done. As you will see on my
site,
> this conversion is fraught with all sorts of problems and as it
progresses
> it's almost turning into a frame-off restore. Believe me I'm loving
every
> minute of it. Just thought you would all like to see the progress.
>
> regards,
>
> Stefano
> http://fest-ev-a.slandi.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:51:47 -0500, Ryan Stotts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>
>> What I am positive of is that the solution(s) to future transportation
>> needs will not involve large quantities of batteries nor a wall plug.
>
>Even with low cost lithium batteries?
Batteries are not a distribution system. The power grid is.
>
>Let's imagine a hydrogen future for a moment. I pull up to the gas
>station and lets say I have 5, 10,000 psi tanks. How long is it going
>to take to refill these tanks?
I spent several days stranded in my MH in Detroit last summer next to
a gas station that served up CNG. I watched numerous people having
absolutely no problem refilling their high pressure CNG tanks.
Ordinary people, not geeks. It took no longer than filling with
gasoline. The filling station uses dump tanks. The filling rate is
limited only by how much heat of compression the car's tanks can
withstand.
>Ever refilled any propane tanks?
Thousands of times.
>Not fast and not fun.
Having operated a small fleet of propane powered delivery trucks, I
beg to differ. A propane fueled vehicle refuels much faster than a
gas fueled one, depending on the capabilities of the fill station.
Mine would pump in excess of 10GPM which meant a fillup took a little
under 2 minutes. Once one becomes familiar with the process and gets
the hang of it, a propane refill is actually faster than a gasoline
refill. "Fun" is too subjective to comment on. I thought the process
kinda cool but my wife hated it. OTOH, she hated filling up with gas
too, judging by where the gas gauge hand tended to reside....
> I'd much rather plug in my car in my garage after I
>get home from work(or sometime during the course of the evening) and
>let it recharge while I'm either eating, doing something else, or
>sleeping. Not spending ~15 minutes at the fuel station..
I agree, I'd never want to spend 15 minutes refueling a vehicle. I
can't imagine anyone designing a system that would require that. Of
course I'd not want to spend all night "filling it up" either. Kinda
screws up those impromptu "Hey honey, let's go to Chattanooga (30
miles each way) for dinner and a show." "Sorry, babe, but the car
won't be charged until dawn." Not gonna get any tonight....
>
>Any why bother with a hydrogen fuel cell? Why not hydrogen ICE?
Because hydrogen is a difficult fuel to burn in an engine without
detonating. It burns rapidly and at a very high temperature which
makes the NOX problem much worse than with gasoline-fueled engines.
>
>How much money does a 10,000 psi tank(or close to that) currently
>cost, and how many years is it good for before I need to get it
>inspected? If those tanks are carbon fiber, it just seems to me all
>the pressurization/depressurization cycles would be detrimental to the
>integrity of the tank?
Feel free to google for the precise answer but I believe the first
inspection (visual only) interval is 17 years for a CNG tank and 5
years thereafter. Irrelevant to hydrogen, however, as it will
invariably be stored in some chemical compound - a hydride or ammonia
or some other compound at from atmospheric pressure to a few hundred
psi. Hydride tanks are already available commercially, in case you
ever wanted to experiment.
BTW, CNG is now a common motor fuel. MARTA (Atlanta metro bus
service) has converted almost all of its buses to CNG. Many utilities
and other fleet operators are using CNG fueled small vehicles. There
is a little penetration into the civilian sector as evidenced by the
CNG fueling stations popping up around large cities. Aviation
applications for composite high pressure tanks date back to at least
the Korean war era. If there were to be fatigue problems with the
tanks, the problems would already be news. They aren't.
>
>Let's say for example peak oil happened and now oil is not low cost
>anymore. Would GM and Ford, etc, convert their current line of
>vehicles to all be propane and natural gas? Or they could do battery
>powered for extra convenience.. Out of all the production EV's so
>far, I think the Toyota RAV4 EV has been the most impressive and
>showed the most potential. What'd it get, 100+ mile range and for all
>intents and purposes, could be considered just a "normal" vehicle?
>Highly underrated vehicle. At least I think so.
Since a step change isn't going to happen, your argument is a
strawman. Anything any of us say at this point is just a guess.
Actually, the path the big OEMs and government has set forth is pretty
clear - natural gas fueled hydrogen fuel cell cars. I think that is
the correct choice over the short term and frankly, my crystal ball is
a bit too blurry to attempt a prediction for the long term. NG fueled
fuel cell technology is one that can be brought online in an
evolutionary method with no major infrastructure changes being
required.
If the average joe ever plugs his car into something at home, I
predict that it will be a high pressure NG or hydrogen line, depending
on where the reformer ends up being located. Arguments can be made
for either location. I'd prefer mine at home so that I could use the
waste heat for other things such as hot water and comfort heating.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:31:41 -0700, "David Chapman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I saw the seller listed the batteries as "lead acid" but I am wondering if
>this is really accurate? Would have thought it should have had some form of
>Ni-Cad.
Everything AVS built was based on bog-standard forklift-type lead acid
traction batteries, formed up in standard dimension battery packs. The
handling and charging stands look straight out of any large factory
forklift operation. The bus pulls into the depot at end of tour, a
forklift operator yanks out the old pack, sticks a new one in and the
bus is ready for the next shift.
AVS, despite all their hype, was not advanced at all. They used
proven, mature technology (except for the microturbine, perhaps) that
worked well. That the company officials were more interested in TV
face time than in running a profitable company doomed them in the end.
I visited the AVS factory on several occasions and never did see
anything "high tech" other than the microturbine.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 13, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
I like the idea of fiber optic. ... It is great from point to point
but hard to imagine connecting 25
regulators via fiber.
Why? A quick Froogle search shows a 3 foot TOSlink cable priced at
US$7.49, a not outrageous price for a moderate number of regs. I don't
know what it would cost to implement the TOSlink interface on the regs,
but it doesn't require lasers or exotic optics, just LEDs and something
that can detect the light, such as this US$3.69 part:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?
catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-640
or the 10mhz parts on this page:
http://www.hobbyengineering.com/SectionLD.html
It's probably more expensive than EVILbus or ARCnet or CAN, but think
of the noise immunity, and the potential bandwidth! And the
overwhelming coolness!!! Or not.
Earlier I heard mention of Arcnet and how it is still around(devicenet
is industrial version?) Correct me if I am wrong but it's popularity
in
control systems is because it is not collision based. It is token based
and, athought slower, has a predictable and guarenteed latency.
ARCnet has a number of features that make it work nicely in an
industrial automation or embedded system setting. The deterministic
latency is a good one for real-time applications. The hardware takes
care of a number of things for you that Ethernet requires higher-level
software support for, such as bad packet retransmission and flow
control. It's incredibly forgiving of noise and bad cabling - I've
seen (and done!) some stuff that would curl your hair. It's also
pretty cheap - for instance, a passive hub is a box with four female
coax connectors on the outside and some resistors inside.
Here's a page with some marketing information:
http://www.arcnet.com/abtarc.htm
Here's a nice brief page with some more technical details, for the Lee
Harts among us:
http://ckp.made-it.com/arcnet.html
And while we're on the subject of old computer networks, I'm also
rather fond of LocalTalk, the RS-485-based network for the original
Macintosh computer, which ran a protocol called AppleTalk. Probably
too chatty for EVILbus, though - LocalTalk ran at 230kbps and was slow.
And while I can babble on interminably about the grand old days of
computer networking, we're probably straying off topic for the EVDL.
Followups should probably go to the EV Tech list.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been looking at vehicles suitable for use as a “neighborhood vehicle”
but on private property. Of course a golf cart of some of the neighborhood
vehicles such as a GEM would work fine. I’ve seen ads on ebay for the China
Pacific Trading Company. Has anyone seen one of their vehicles. If so,
what’s it look like? Electrical, quality, etc?
Thanks!
Ralph
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 12, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Doug Weathers wrote:
Oh yeah, I'm making my cables now, too :)
And on that subject, the local battery store is selling automotive
crimp battery connectors for $7.80 each. I don't think I can afford
those for my 16 batteries, so I thought I'd ask the list about the
connectors for sale on EVParts (QuickCable) and EVSource (brand
unknown).
I bought a couple from the local store to play with. The local product
weighs about 2.5 ounces and is stamped with the legend "A-C ORG", if
that helps. No paint marks, like EVSource's connectors and unlike
EVParts'. (Note: they look a lot like the one in this famous picture,
except my bolts are shiny: <http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm> )
I've heard here before that the QuickCable connectors are high quality.
Can anyone come up with a good reason why my local battery shop wants
more than twice as much for their no-name brand as EVParts and EVSource
wants for theirs? Opinions?
One final question: I also bought some 3/4in diameter shrink tube with
glue inside. It seems to work fine, but looking on the web it looks
like everyone recommends the 1in diameter tube for 2/0 cable. Any
opinions? It seems like the 1in stuff would shrink up more and get
stiffer, which doesn't sound ideal.
Thanks,
Doug
p.s. I bought my 2/0 orange welding cable from our local Airgas welding
supply store for $2.85 a foot. I borrowed Jonathan Dodge's Bill
Dube-style crimpers. It turns out that if you use the big angle
connector boots with a straight connector, you can cover both the
automotive post and the stud post on the Orbital with it (so you can
use the stud terminals to hook up your regulators). I'm currently
sketching out where all the wires and boots will go. This is exciting.
I am a huge nerd.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darn and here I am on the wrong side of the world.
That thing would make a dandy Electrcic RV. Cover the roof in solar
panels and tour the US (slowly)
I don't suppose anyone in Florida would be willing to pick it up and store
it for me until next Summer? I'd be happy to pay for your time and space.
Cheers, Pete.
> FYI--
>
> There is one last hybrid-electric bus going into its last day of auction
> on eBay--
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4574213708
>
> Or if the link is broken, search for "Broward" in eBay Motors.
>
> This is the last of eight hybrid-electric buses that were auctioned off
> by Broward county. I bought mine early, non-operational, and am in the
> process of bringing it back to life. The current auction is for a bus
> that actually still runs, per the seller (although it is missing its
> APU, the Capstone microturbine).
>
> These buses were orphaned when the Chattanooga company that made them
> went out of business (theirs was a sad story of support failure, shoddy
> production, unrealistic fleet expectations, and reduced emissions
> standards which made EV fleets less appealing):-(
>
> They do have tons of Solectria stuff, with dual AC55's, UMOC445TF
> controller, 24 Deka GelTech batteries (dead, most likely), DC-DC
> converter, etc.
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a fun idea, I'm actually thinking of something similar.
However, I believe you've made a major error in your calculations.
This bus has a frontal area of approx 75 sqft. Assuming it has a Cd of
approx 0.5, that means that it will require approx 90kw to move at 55 mph.
The Peukert effect reduces your 100AH @ C20 to /maybe/ 50AH at 4C.
The original 48 Deka's only store approx 13kwh of useable energy at this
power level.
This means that your range, @ 55 mph, is approx 7-8 miles.
If you replace the Deka's with something that stands up better to these
high power levels, say Optima YTs or Excide Orbitals, you can maybe extend
that to 10-11 miles.
If you use back roads and drive at 35 mph, you can probably go 20 miles
per charge.
Of course on the plus side, it will take you less than 2 days to recharge.
Cheers, Pete.
P.S. I had to estimate some factors, rolling resistance, Cd, etc. so my
estimates might be off by as much as 20%. This means you /might/ get an
extra mile of range, or you might get a mile less.
> Yes, that was a typo/brain fart. I meant 8 amps for 5 hours, or an
> accumulation of 40ah, into a pack with nominal 100ah (C/20). That means
> about 2 1/2 sunny days to accumulate enough for a one-hour drive
> (possible with the MPPT charge controller mentioned by Rush).
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiousity, how much head room (floor to ceiling) is their
inside this bus?
CHeers, Pete.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get a composting toilet and you won't need to dump, ever. Use energy saved
to charge your batts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
Fantastic!!!
2.5 kw of panels.... wow. So every square inch of your roof is covered
with PV. Be sure to make them be able to pivot so you can track the sun
when you are parked. And don't forget a Max Power Point Tracker. I think
Outback products are really great.
If you don't know about BLM land here in the west, check it out. Free
camping for a 14 day period on most BLM land, even leased. A lot of
state/federal parks will let you dump for a small fee, you can even sneak
in at times.
Keep us informed!
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:07 PM
Subject: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
Hi Keith,
My EV is the aforementioned now-defunct-AVS 22'7" hybrid-electric
shuttle bus. Mostly Solectria stuff. See my fledgling site:
http://www.metabus.org
My plan is to convert it into a solar-charged recreational EV. I have a
one-year re-engineering plan which has me spending my money on solar
panels for the roof (14 Sanyo 190-watt HIT modules) and ultracaps for
terrain (120 Maxwell BCAP350's). The bus already sports a Capstone
microturbine as an APU, but I am hoping to keep that (reconfigured) as
an emergency generator, which I hope to never need.
The plan is to drive my REV across the country, taking my time, using
only the sun to recharge. RV's are made for this application, as is
semi-retirement. I'll drive an hour, at highway speeds, and find another
place to stay for a few days. I have enough roof space to give me about
8 amps per hour (at 300v), average 5 hours of insolation-- should just
make my 10% charge acceptance rate, and giving me about 20 miles per
day, with 60% DOD, and a lot of time and patience.
I call this plan my LSD trip :-) where LSD is a long-slow-distance. I
have a lot of work to do-- I am not sure my bus would make it over the
Rockies as it is today. When I embark, though, I will be embarking on a
sun-powered adventure. By my calculations, it will take me a year to
make the round-trip, Florida to Northern California.
Of course, you know what that say-- "If you want to make God laugh..."
Keith Richtman wrote:
Maybe I missed it (and can't find it in my archive), but what is your EV
Meta Bus?
Keith
Meta Bus wrote:
<snip stuff about AC55 motors and other cool Solectria parts>
my EV
>
> <snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/14/05, Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Get a composting toilet and you won't need to dump, ever. Use energy saved
> to charge your batts.
Never mind that, build a portable anaerobic digester and run a
generator off the methane!
The bus RV thing sounds like a nice idea but I think it's going to be
a bit impractical with such a large, heavy vehicle. Might be better
to strip it and build something lighter and more aerodynamic (I'm
starting to sound like Jerry here :) )
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps a methane hybrid? Naaah...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
> Get a composting toilet and you won't need to dump, ever. Use energy saved
> to charge your batts.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 9:40 PM
> Subject: Re: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
>
>
> > Fantastic!!!
> >
> > 2.5 kw of panels.... wow. So every square inch of your roof is covered
> > with PV. Be sure to make them be able to pivot so you can track the sun
> > when you are parked. And don't forget a Max Power Point Tracker. I think
> > Outback products are really great.
> >
> > If you don't know about BLM land here in the west, check it out. Free
> > camping for a 14 day period on most BLM land, even leased. A lot of
> > state/federal parks will let you dump for a small fee, you can even
sneak
> > in at times.
> >
> > Keep us informed!
> >
> > Rush
> > Tucson AZ
> > www.ironandwood.org
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Meta Bus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:07 PM
> > Subject: LSD Tripping in my REV (was: More motors -> More speed?)
> >
> >
> >> Hi Keith,
> >>
> >> My EV is the aforementioned now-defunct-AVS 22'7" hybrid-electric
> >> shuttle bus. Mostly Solectria stuff. See my fledgling site:
> >> http://www.metabus.org
> >>
> >> My plan is to convert it into a solar-charged recreational EV. I have a
> >> one-year re-engineering plan which has me spending my money on solar
> >> panels for the roof (14 Sanyo 190-watt HIT modules) and ultracaps for
> >> terrain (120 Maxwell BCAP350's). The bus already sports a Capstone
> >> microturbine as an APU, but I am hoping to keep that (reconfigured) as
> >> an emergency generator, which I hope to never need.
> >>
> >> The plan is to drive my REV across the country, taking my time, using
> >> only the sun to recharge. RV's are made for this application, as is
> >> semi-retirement. I'll drive an hour, at highway speeds, and find
another
> >> place to stay for a few days. I have enough roof space to give me about
> >> 8 amps per hour (at 300v), average 5 hours of insolation-- should just
> >> make my 10% charge acceptance rate, and giving me about 20 miles per
> >> day, with 60% DOD, and a lot of time and patience.
> >>
> >> I call this plan my LSD trip :-) where LSD is a long-slow-distance. I
> >> have a lot of work to do-- I am not sure my bus would make it over the
> >> Rockies as it is today. When I embark, though, I will be embarking on a
> >> sun-powered adventure. By my calculations, it will take me a year to
> >> make the round-trip, Florida to Northern California.
> >>
> >> Of course, you know what that say-- "If you want to make God laugh..."
> >>
> >> Keith Richtman wrote:
> >>> Maybe I missed it (and can't find it in my archive), but what is your
EV
> >>> Meta Bus?
> >>>
> >>> Keith
> >>>
> >>> Meta Bus wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> <snip stuff about AC55 motors and other cool Solectria parts>
> >>>>
> >>>> my EV
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > <snip>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/05
>
>
--- End Message ---
