EV Digest 4755
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Who are the Avcon Guys.
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Peugeot 206 + 15kW Siemens (copy, with US units)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) BOB RICE!!
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Peugeot 206 + 15kW Siemens (copy, with US units)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Battery sourcing difficulties
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Peugeot 206 + 15kW Siemens (copy, with US units)
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) vw thing ev
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: article: Subaru Parent Sets Timeline for Electric-Car Development
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: vw thing ev
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: vw thing ev
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Vacuum Booster
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Which Nedra class?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 18khz?
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Which Nedra class?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: article: Subaru Parent Sets Timeline for Electric-Car Development
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Contactor controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by "stu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Weird wire bundle
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Siemens EV Motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Crimping, My Style
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) 2006 FL NEDRA Race - early details
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Can batteries be mounted up front ahead of the bumper?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: creaky rear struts in VoltsRabbit - slightly O.T.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: creaky rear struts in VoltsRabbit - slightly O.T.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
I have one but need it for my car. It works just fine with the PFC-20.
Call me or send e-mail if you need Acvon help.
Gary Graunke has a DS-50 wall unit. Otmar has one more more wall units.
I'm not sure if either is for sale though.
They come up frequently on eBay too.
Ralph
Rich Rudman writes:
>
> I need a Avcon Power pack.
>
> Ron was that you???
>
> I lent my Avcon power pack to a Fellow EVer... and it got Sold..
>
> I need to have one on hand and running so I can Tech Support Manzanita Micro
> chragers running under Avcon control.
> I am not looking for a hand out...
>
> Yes Rick Woodbury, That means you!!
> I am trying to reduce my Clueless ness of those early morning phone calls.
>
> Doing charger tech support while my lips and hands are still numb from sleep
> is getting old...
> Yes I was working on the 75K at midnight last night....
>
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo a few of things:
1. the motor and controller are a combination that always need to be
considered together. If the motor max power is 84kW, it becomes then a
limitation of the controller, whose max power is 80kW.
2. make sure you consider acceleration going up a hill. This is what will
take the most power.
3. make sure you consider holding speed going up a hill. For me, I do not
like it when going up a hill and the car slowly grinds to a crawl.
I will do a few acceleration tests today in the New Beetle and publish the
info for you. My running weight is approx the same size as your Peugeot.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: September 24, 2005 8:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Peugeot 206 + 15kW Siemens (copy, with US units)
On Sep 24, 2005, at 1:15 AM, Osmo Sarin wrote:
> I´m planning to convert Peugeot 206 as my first project, and I´ve been
> offered a Siemens 1LH5118 AC motor with 15 kW rated, 123 Nm max, and
> Simovert 6SV1 short inverter (110-380 V, max DC 280 A, max 80 kW).
>
> According to my own calculations (which may be incorrect) I would need
> much more power, but the seller says 15 kW is enough for my
> requirements, which are:
>
> -total weight (with passengers) 1400 kg (3090 lbs) -top speed 110 km/h
> (68 mph) -acceleration 6 sec 0-50 km/h (0-31 mph) = normal ICE-acc.
>
> -voltage about 300 V
>
> I´d appreciate any comments,
Peak power will be 84kW at 300 volts. 15kW is almost certainly the
continuous rating, because electric motors built for continuous duty are
generally rated for what they can handle continuously.
I suspect that 3100 lbs and 84kW will do 0-31 mph in less than 6 seconds.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, Call me on my Cell. Been trying to call ya and all I get is a "reorder
ring". Will be at Speedworld at 5:00 MST, but we should have some reception
even out there. David.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Osmo,
If you havn't already I would solicit opinion from the fellow on the list
that has the most Siemens AC drive experiance. IE: Victor T @ Metric Mind.
Good luck with your project.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Dennis,
Down at Home Depot to get the batteries you wanted but they seem to only
have 1 Pallet of the DuraCells. Would Eveready be OK? David.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3. make sure you consider holding speed going up a hill. For me, I do
not
like it when going up a hill and the car slowly grinds to a crawl.
I forgot to mention hill climbing in my requirements, maybe because I
don´t know what "uphill-%" I should use. (I´ve planned to go with a
long spirit level to some road hill to find this out - I hope the
authorities won´t pick me up... :) But the hills are not very big in my
area. All the main roads are flat, the biggest hills are on smaller
roads where the speed is about 60 km/h.
I´ve used 2 % in my calculations, which gives total power 35kW in
constant 110 km/h speed.
Anyway, I would like to keep it up with the traffic also on hills. Do I
understand correctly that you would like to have a bit more power on
your Beetle, Don?
Then about acceleration: I don´t quite understand what does it mean
when my excel (like your drivepower.xls, which didn´t open correctly in
my mac, so I made my own) shows that on let say 80 km/h the power
needed to accelerate with a rate "6 sec 0-50 km/h" is 48 kW. Is it the
power needed to accelerate
a) from 0 to 80 km/h
b) from 30 to 80 km/h (80-50=30)
(c) from 80 to 130 km/h)
Or am I confusing power and energy here...
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I have the opportunity to buy a vw thing that has very little rust. Since
it is a convertible, would it be able to support a 72v or 96v battery pack? The
guy is selling it for $3500. I need to know quickly so if any of you are thing
experts please call me at 207-319-5989. It's 2:50 pm saturday afternoon and
I'll have my cell phone with me. Thanks.
John David
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So this time next year we should be able to get an EV Subaru?
Interesting. If true. We will see.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: article: Subaru Parent Sets Timeline for Electric-Car Development
> The good thing is that it is starting to happen. (again :-)
> Hopefully this time EVs from big manufacturers will make it a bit further
> down the path to high volume mass production.
> It will be interesting to see what becomes of the EV concepts from Asian
> car makers, as well as the current low volume EVs like the Reva from India.
> Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts Sent: Saturday, 24 September 2005 1:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: article: Subaru Parent Sets Timeline for Electric-Car
> Development
> "a one-year schedule for development of a new electric car. will
> develop and manufacture 10 prototype vehicles based on the Subaru R1e
> concept."
> Why don't they just take one or more of their production cars and use
> off the shelf components and their fancy batteries and have a rolling
> test bed / prototype up and running next week?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
As it's an off road military truck, it should eaily carry
the battery weight. If it's not running though, it's a bit pricy. And you won't
ge good high speed from it as it isn't aero at all so you would need to use it
forunder 50 mph except for short stretches as higher speeds will kill range.
You would be better of with a bug instead for much less money.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All,
I have the opportunity to buy a vw thing that has very little rust. Since it is
a convertible, would it be able to support a 72v or 96v battery pack? The guy
is selling it for $3500. I need to know quickly so if any of you are thing
experts please call me at 207-319-5989. It's 2:50 pm saturday afternoon and
I'll have my cell phone with me. Thanks.
John David
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Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry: The Thing ain't no Kubelwagon ;-]. The Kubel was the military "jeep"
I don't think anything is the same partwise between the two.
Things are getting to be quite collectable especially if in good
shape.
John: I'd suggest you consider buying it as an investment. If it is in good
shape they have sold for over $10K. Buy it drive it, clean it up, sell it,
and pay for your ev. Actually they are a blast to drive and you won't want
to sell it.
Dave
> Hi John and All,
> As it's an off road military truck, it should
> eaily carry the battery weight. If it's not running though, it's
> a bit pricy. And you won't ge good high speed from it as it isn't
> aero at all so you would need to use it forunder 50 mph except
> for short stretches as higher speeds will kill range. You would
> be better of with a bug instead for much less money.
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> All,
> I have the opportunity to buy a vw thing that has very little
> rust. Since it is a convertible, would it be able to support a
> 72v or 96v battery pack? The guy is selling it for $3500. I need
> to know quickly so if any of you are thing experts please call me
> at 207-319-5989. It's 2:50 pm saturday afternoon and I'll have my
> cell phone with me. Thanks.
>
> John David
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actiually, the air brakes I am familiar with are spring applied and air
released. That is why those wild skids occasionally on the highway when
someone looses pressure all of a sudden.
The electric vacuum pumps are order items, at least around here. so if
one goes out, you are down. {well everything is getting to be to work on
your car on sat start ordering on monday :-( } air compressors are
all over the place both at gas stations and as 12volt inflators at
autozones, etc.
I just thought it might be a good option for vehicles tight on space,
needing to be really light, like racing(though they usually eliminate
the booster) and if you already have on board air.
I also think storage of vacuum is limited, once the tank is evacuated,
thats the volume you got. My guess is that that is equivilant to 14 psi
at that volume.
Pintball idea is a little out there but I take a paintball tank at 3000
psi 3000/14 = 214 activations! I wouldn't even expect to get half
that because of the volume and it would probably not be practal to go
fill it but how about this. a 1 Cu ft tank at 100PSI with a regulator to
14 for the booster. the 100 psi is available for adjusting the ride
hight on air bags or air shocks and for keeping your tires topped off.
The 12V el-cheepo air compressor is used if tank drops below 30psi, or
the paintball tank is used if same thing occurs, Other than that you
charge the 100psi when you charge the batteries. Of course I have air at
home and at work.
Last night I got a booster and I mad a little plug with 2 orings, I
plann to play on the bench with it just to see if the theory is sound.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good example of a Concept Vehicle would be the Tango.
http://www.commutercars.com/
If the vehicle is scratch built, street legal, and not converted
from a car that was originally and ICE, then it would fit into the Concept
Vehicle Class. The goal of the Concept Vehicle Class is to allow prototype
electric vehicles, intended for mass production for the general market, to
compete in NEDRA events.
It is a mystery why Dennis would care, however.
Since Dennis is not a NEDRA member, he can't set a NEDRA record.
It is a mystery why he would care what NEDRA class a car would fit into, or
why he would care what opinion (especially my opinion) NEDRA has about it.
Dennis resigned his NEDRA membership a few years ago. He also
actively disparages NEDRA quite consistently.
The irony is staggering. :^)
At 04:17 PM 9/22/2005, you wrote:
Dennis wrote:
> If a person had a pro street truck(NHRA)tube frame, fiber body fitted
in such
> a way as to be totaly street legal and driven on the street with a lic. and
> insurance which class would it belong to in nedra?
If this is the extent of the "rules", I'd say Street conversion...
"Street conversion vehicles are licensed and legal for driving on the
street. "
If not, then the "Concept vehicles" class..
http://www.nedra.com/records-sc.html
http://www.nedra.com/records-cv.html
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to find out for certain.
Bill Dube'
National Technical Director
National Electric Drag Racing Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Why 18 khz? Is this he optimum frequency for series motors?
Just asking because I'm thinking really hard today. I understand frequency,
rise and fall times, temperature relationship. What keeps us from going
above the human hearing range so we don't hear it? Or are we listening to
the harmonics?
Mark Grasser
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--- Begin Message ---
Thats a cool car! I dont think it is $39,000 cool though. Wow.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Which Nedra class?
A good example of a Concept Vehicle would be the Tango.
http://www.commutercars.com/
If the vehicle is scratch built, street legal, and not converted
from a car that was originally and ICE, then it would fit into the Concept
Vehicle Class. The goal of the Concept Vehicle Class is to allow prototype
electric vehicles, intended for mass production for the general market, to
compete in NEDRA events.
It is a mystery why Dennis would care, however.
Since Dennis is not a NEDRA member, he can't set a NEDRA record.
It is a mystery why he would care what NEDRA class a car would fit into, or
why he would care what opinion (especially my opinion) NEDRA has about it.
Dennis resigned his NEDRA membership a few years ago. He also
actively disparages NEDRA quite consistently.
The irony is staggering. :^)
At 04:17 PM 9/22/2005, you wrote:
>Dennis wrote:
>
> > If a person had a pro street truck(NHRA)tube frame, fiber body fitted
> in such
> > a way as to be totaly street legal and driven on the street with a lic.
and
> > insurance which class would it belong to in nedra?
>
>If this is the extent of the "rules", I'd say Street conversion...
>
>"Street conversion vehicles are licensed and legal for driving on the
>street. "
>
>If not, then the "Concept vehicles" class..
>
>http://www.nedra.com/records-sc.html
>http://www.nedra.com/records-cv.html
>
>Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] to find out for certain.
Bill Dube'
National Technical Director
National Electric Drag Racing Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
So this time next year we should be able to get an EV Subaru?
I don't believe that is true. Earlier articles put the timeframe in the
"several years" category and I believe I remember 2010 being the
commercialization target.
Maybe the "one year" reference is until they have finalized the
concept/prototype stage and will unveil and reveal performance and start
taking the design to shows or something.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
D Franklin wrote:
> I am going to use a combination of diodes and contactors for a
> series parallel setup with the resistor as the first step. I have
> been trying to figure the best way to control the contactors.
> I would like this system to be hooked to the gas pedal for simple
> operation. I can envision using microswitches with the accelerator
> cable to select the different speeds.
Yes, that's the idea. The accelerator operates a cam or something to
sequentially actuate the microswitches as you press it.
> My first thought was to control the resistor with an on-delay timer.
You could, but it doesn't work too well. Suppose you're creeping into a
parking place. You generally bump back and forth between the Off and
Parallel-with-Resistor steps, tapping the accellerator briefly to roll
another foot or so. The timer might trigger too soon, and switch you to
Parallel-without-Resistor when you didn't expect it. Crash!
The other problem comes with hills. When you start out downhill, you
pick up speed much quicker; you'll want to switch the resistor out
sooner, or maybe just let the car roll up to 1-2 mph and then go
straight to Parallel-without-Resistor. Or, when you start out uphill,
the car accellerates slower. You may want to leave the resistor
in-circuit a bit longer to give the car time to gain enough speed so you
don't get a violent "lurch".
So it's best to give the driver control over when the resistor is in the
circuit.
> I have seen some other designs where they put a low voltage relay
> across the motor. When you start from a standstill, apparently the
> motor is pretty much a dead short and there is no voltage developed
> across it. As you gain speed, the voltage rises to the point where
> it would activate the relay... to take the resistor out of the circuit.
This might work, with some "fiddling". With the relay across the motor
dropped out, the resistor is in series with the motor. Once you have
enough motor voltage to pull it in, the relay is shorted out. "Flooring
it" from a dead stop should start you off with the resistor, and then
automatically bypass it when you get enough rpm so the current without
the resistor isn't too alarming.
> How do you keep someone from nailing the throttle to the floor from
> a dead stop, forcing the batteries into high voltage series operation
> and causing something to burn out or break the tranny?
You either use such a wimpy motor and skinny wiring that it can't get
enough power to break anything -- or you build everything strong enough
to survive (with lots of tire-spinning, pegged ammeters, "holy sh*t!"
from your passengers, etc.).
Seriously, the relay-across-the-motor scheme can prevent this. There are
others; my ComutaVan had a circuit that sensed motor current (actually,
the voltage across the motor's series field) to operate a relay that
inhibited higher voltage steps until the motor current was low enough.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Thinking about the 70/30 weight ratio as a goal for a hybrid 3 wheeler, I
wonder if there is a way to build a battery box way up front and the way of
supporting 500-600 pounds.
BTW The batteries may be a good shock absorber in a crash.
BoyntonStu
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--- Begin Message ---
At 05:23 AM 24/09/05 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I was wiring my sense wiring for the long range Rudman regs and the bundle
of 15 wires plus ground did something weird. I got a strange loop in the
bundle. One wire doesn't have a mate. I just don't get it and it has
continuity with a wire that it shouldn't.
Does that mean 15 wires at one end and 14 at the other? or 15/15 but one
wire doesn't connect through, but connects to an adjacent wire?
Maybe I should check for damage in the wire bundle. I just don't get
it. Are bundled wires ever wired like this? Two wires at one end going
to one wire at the other? This is really strange. I cut the thing off a
spool..... No I didn't it was a piece just laying there already
cut. Argggg. Maybe the cutter knew something I didn't. ....
What sort of wire is it? Twisted pairs plus one? Chicom or quality brand?
There can be 'funnies' at the start and end of a cable batch, but I've
never seen one like that.
James
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--- Begin Message ---
Stu wrote,
> Thinking about the 70/30 weight ratio as a goal for a hybrid 3 wheeler, I
> wonder if there is a way to build a battery box way up front and the way
of
> supporting 500-600 pounds.
>
> BTW The batteries may be a good shock absorber in a crash.
Or you could sit in front, and use a front-opening door like the old BMW
Isetta, and put the batteries amidships. The rollcage/door connection, the
steering wheel placement , and what (or who) absorbs crash forces should be
considered. But you have to admit that popping out of the front would shake
people up a bit...
http://www.cqql.net/bmw.htm
-Tim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> The sad fact is that there is no real reason why an AC motor
>> "has" to be matched to its inverter, any more than a series
>> DC motor has to be matched to its PWM controller.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> This is what BRUSA thinks about it, and they know their stuff:
> http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_motoren108.htm
That doesn't say WHY they think this.
If you want peak performance and efficiency, then you match the motor
and controller. But if you can accept a modest reduction in performance
and efficiency, then there can be some degree of mismatch.
For example, a standard 120vac 60hz induction motor can be operated on
other voltages and frequencies. Let's say you have a 1hp 120vac 60hz
motor -- what happens if you operate it at 120vac 50hz?
1. Frequency determines speed; 50hz is 20% lower, so it runs 20% slower.
2. Voltage and frequency should change proportionately to keep the motor
current the same. At 50hz, we should have decreased the voltage to
100vac. But we didn't, so now we are applying 20% too much voltage.
This causes the current to be about 20% higher.
3. Current determines torque; 20% more current means we have 20% more
torque.
4. Since we have 20% lower speed and 20% more torque, horsepower is the
same! We *still* have a 1hp motor.
5. However, resistive losses in the windings go up as the square of
the current. 1.2 times the current means 1.2^2 = 1.44 times more
heat is produced in the windings. The winding's temperature rise
will be about 44% more (if they ran 30 degrees hotter than ambient
at 120vac 60hz, they will run 30 x 1.44 = 43 degrees hotter at
120vac 50hz).
6. Iron losses will increase in proportion to the volts x frequency
increase. This also increased 20%. Iron losses are normally about
3%, so we may have increased them to 4%; another 1% increase in
heating.
Note that most motors have a 20-30% safety factor before the core
saturates; we don't have to worry about this yet. But if we tried
a 2:1 increase in volts x frequency, we would have saturated the
core and gotten a *huge* increase in loss!
7. This extra heat production from the winding resistance and core
loss reflects itself in a slight loss in efficiency. If the motor
was 80% efficient at 60hz (20% losses), and this goes up by 20%,
the losses become 20 x 1.2 = 24% losses; its now 76% efficient.
8. If the motor is cooled by an internal fan, the fan is less
effective at 50hz. The motor will heat up quicker, and settle
to a higher temperature.
So what do we have; a 20% shift away from the optimal operating point
lowered speed but raised the torque. We still have our horsepower, but
lowered the efficiency by 4% and increased the temperature by 15-20
degrees. That's not bad at all -- certainly not a show-stopper.
This is what I was getting at. If you don't match the AC motor and
controller, you can expect a modest loss of efficiency, and an increase
in operating temperature. Nothing drastic happens unless you "cross the
boundaries" of its safety factors; too much speed, too much voltage, too
much current, etc.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I've never done crimping before, so I just want to make sure I'm going it
right. I've got a crimper. The lugs for my 2/0 cable are circular for
about 3/4 inch, then taper down toward the bolt hole. Do I cut 3/4 inch
back on the insulation and insert the cable until it reaches the start of
the taper? Or do I cut off more than 3/4 inch of insulation and jam some of
the stranded wire as far as I can into the taper?
Many neophyte thanks,
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
I personally would not recommend batteries up front
of the bumper. First off when the case cracks there
will be a haz-mat situation with the acid. And you may
be fined for the spill. Secondly I would be worryied
about the amount of energy released when the batteries
shorted out. It has to go somewhere. As demonstrated
by Valance in what happens to Lithium-ion when shot.
And there is no telling where the energy of a possible
explosion would go.
--- stu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thinking about the 70/30 weight ratio as a goal for
> a hybrid 3 wheeler, I
> wonder if there is a way to build a battery box way
> up front and the way of
> supporting 500-600 pounds.
>
> BTW The batteries may be a good shock absorber in a
> crash.
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
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My thoughts exactly. Just because batteries are safe when handled
correctly sure doesn't mean they can't be made dangerous. All it would
take is one tap and you've got acid, boiling vapor from the internal
shorts, and possibly fire. Hazmat is likely. An easy way to give EVs a
bad reputation.
Danny
Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
I personally would not recommend batteries up front
of the bumper. First off when the case cracks there
will be a haz-mat situation with the acid. And you may
be fined for the spill. Secondly I would be worryied
about the amount of energy released when the batteries
shorted out. It has to go somewhere. As demonstrated
by Valance in what happens to Lithium-ion when shot.
And there is no telling where the energy of a possible
explosion would go.
--- stu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thinking about the 70/30 weight ratio as a goal for
a hybrid 3 wheeler, I
wonder if there is a way to build a battery box way
up front and the way of
supporting 500-600 pounds.
BTW The batteries may be a good shock absorber in a
crash.
BoyntonStu
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> My thoughts exactly. Just because batteries are safe when handled
> correctly sure doesn't mean they can't be made dangerous. All it would
> take is one tap and you've got acid, boiling vapor from the internal
> shorts, and possibly fire. Hazmat is likely. An easy way to give EVs a
> bad reputation.
>
> Danny
>
> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>
> >I personally would not recommend batteries up front
> >of the bumper. First off when the case cracks there
> >will be a haz-mat situation with the acid. And you may
> >be fined for the spill. Secondly I would be worryied
> >about the amount of energy released when the batteries
> >shorted out. It has to go somewhere. As demonstrated
> >by Valance in what happens to Lithium-ion when shot.
> >And there is no telling where the energy of a possible
> >explosion would go.
> >
Didn't CommutaVans have battery packs in the bumpers? I think I remember listees
mentioning how horrible the handling was (something about "polar motion"?)
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Hey Everyone,
I have the early official details for the 2006 NEDRA race in Florida.
The race will be held Jan. 21st 2006; gates open at 4:30PM and race to start
soon after. The race will be held at Moroso Motorsports Park in West Palm
Beach.
http://www.morosomotorsportspark.com/Newsite/Default.asp
Once we have a name and website, I'll post those details as well.
The race is going to be the 2006 NEDRA Season Opener, and first ever NEDRA
race in FL. So how wants to come to FL in the winter????
I have several people who have already committed to coming down and bringing
their EV's out to race. We are expecting between 15 and 20 vehicles. We
would love to have more!!!
The track is at a good size motor sports park and the managers are very
supportive of having an EV race here. I am thrilled to see their support so
early on.
Besides the racing, we are also working on other events and contests that
will be held during the race.
If anyone has any questions, please email them to me at: shawn (at)
suncoast.net
Bring the cars, bikes and families and let's race!
Thanks,
Shawn Waggoner
FL EAA / NEDRA
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Danny Miller wrote:
> My thoughts exactly. Just because batteries are safe when handled
> correctly sure doesn't mean they can't be made dangerous. All it
> would take is one tap and you've got acid, boiling vapor from the
> internal shorts, and possibly fire. Hazmat is likely. An easy way
> to give EVs a bad reputation.
Except that car batteries are routinely mounted in the "crush" space
under the hood of cars, and routinely get smashed in accidents. Nothing
particularly bad happens when you crush a lead-acid battery -- certainly
it's far less dangerous than gasoline, antifreeze, motor oil, or
transmission fluid. If it was an AGM that was crushed, there wouldn't
even be any acid spill.
As I recall, the hasmat proceedure for a lead-acid battery is "pick up
the pieces, neutralize with baking soda, and wash it away with plenty of
water".
Lead acid batteries won't burn; their water content is more likely to
extinguish a fire.
Shorting a fully-charged battery can boil the electrolyte, so there is
some risk of burns from steam. The case can also rupture from the
internal pressure. But they don't store enough energy to boil it all
away.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi Bob,
I'm inclined to tighten the hell out of them, since it certainly
sounds like the torque I have on them now is allowing things to
flop around. It sounds like things are loose in there, and that
the rubber is sliding around against the bottom of the body. I
don't recall seeing any left vs right indication on the strut
assemblies or in the factory service manual. Both sides look the
same. I think the noise is from the top of the strut, at least
the rubbery creaky noise, since that started bad when we swapped,
and that's the first time those struts had been out in some
eleven years. The feathery washboardy sound is no longer there
as far as I can tell. Where are the ball joints on the back of
these vehicles? Shock mounts with a simple bolt through a hole
to the end of the rear suspension beam where the wheel is
mounted - I don't recall anything fancy back there like a ball
joint.
As for the nylon washer you speak of, I vaguely remember noting
that there was one in the manual's diagram, but none on the
strut, either side. The lack of the washer, though, wouldn't
cause these noises, would it? Doubt it.
Could it be that if you move a biscuit from one side to the
other, since the bumps and ridges on the body are a bit
different, that it doesn't really snug up tight till you get lots
of force on them?
Thanks,
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: creaky rear struts in VoltsRabbit - slightly O.T.
> Nobody seems to have tackled this, so here goes:
> I've heard two stories on the biscuits. a) Tighten
> the hell out of them, they're made for it, and b) snug
> fit. The nylon washer will keep anything from
> happening to the bolt, so don't overdo it.
> MANY struts, (can't remember on
> Volkswagen/VoltsRabbit) have to be LEFT vs. RIGHT.
> They are not supposed to be swapped.
> A final note: are you sure it's in the strut, or could
> it be a ball joint? They are what has given me grief
> in vehicles before.
>
> Best of success,
>
>
> --- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The rear strut assemblies on my VoltsRabbit have
> > been rather
> > creaky lately. I'm wondering if any of the VW gurus
> > out there
> > have had this problem and solved it.
> >
> > When I went to replace my battery pack last spring,
> > we decided to
> > swap sides on the two rear struts to see if a mild
> > rattling
> > problem would move. The rattling problem would
> > occur in the
> > passenger side strut when I would go over a road
> > that had a mild
> > washboard (there's a particular one I'm thinking of
> > on the uphill
> > south side of Wolfe Grade) in the asphalt. We
> > disassembled the
> > springs and struts (actually putting in new
> > springs), and the
> > struts aren't leaking and appear ok. Hopefully we
> > got everything
> > back together ok. Then we swapped sides. It's
> > rather hard to
> > tighten up the bolts appearing inside the car body
> > without the
> > shock absorber turning. It also prevents one from
> > latching on a
> > torque wrench. Anybody know about the special tool
> > 50-200 (if I
> > recollect the number correctly) that's mentioned in
> > the factory
> > service manual to keep the bolt from turning? It's
> > guess and by
> > gosh as to what torque I'm getting. Things really
> > creaked after
> > reinstallation. Tightened down some more, and after
> > awhile the
> > creak became less. But it's still aggravating. It
> > sounds like
> > rubber slipping on metal, along with the occasional
> > thump when I
> > go over a bump (thump being more on the left side -
> > old
> > right-side strut with the noise).
> >
> > Are the rubber pieces at the top of the strut
> > supposed to be
> > really well squished? What kinda torque is that
> > going to take?
> > I think I'm already well over the ~25ft-lbs
> > specified. Do these
> > rubber pieces ossify with time, and should I try
> > replacing them?
> >
> > When the shop down the street installed new front
> > struts for me a
> > few years ago, they creaked while turning for
> > awhile, but the
> > problem eventually went away.
> >
> > I saw on a website awhile ago special bearings that
> > could be put
> > in the rear, but it required a special weld job,
> > which looked
> > like big work with big chances of screwing up. This
> > rubber stuff
> > looks like it is a royal pain if it doesn't sit in
> > there right.
> > I can even hear it creak when I get out of the car
> > and the car
> > raises up a bit.
> >
> > Creaking down the road in my electric jalopy,
> > Chuck
> >
> > Chuck Hursch
> > Larkspur, CA
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> > http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
> >
> >
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
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Lawrence,
I got a small crescent wrench on the top of the strut bolt to
keep the shock from turning. Then I think I used a box-end
wrench for tightening down the nut, maybe 9" to 12" long. I was
pulling pretty good on that, and the nut didn't seem to be
tightening down much. Sooo... I guess I will trying leaning
into it a bit more and forget about the ~25 ft-lb figure.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: creaky rear struts in VoltsRabbit - slightly O.T.
> Chuck. The top of the strut/shock should have a square or
rectangle shape
> you can get a small wrench on. That will keep the shaft from
turning. It
> sounds like your shock is loose. You do have to get the nut
down a ways to
> expose the end of the shaft. Lawrence Rhodes..........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 3:11 PM
> Subject: creaky rear struts in VoltsRabbit - slightly O.T.
>
>
> > The rear strut assemblies on my VoltsRabbit have been rather
> > creaky lately. I'm wondering if any of the VW gurus out
there
> > have had this problem and solved it.
> >
> > When I went to replace my battery pack last spring, we
decided to
> > swap sides on the two rear struts to see if a mild rattling
> > problem would move. The rattling problem would occur in the
> > passenger side strut when I would go over a road that had a
mild
> > washboard (there's a particular one I'm thinking of on the
uphill
> > south side of Wolfe Grade) in the asphalt. We disassembled
the
> > springs and struts (actually putting in new springs), and the
> > struts aren't leaking and appear ok. Hopefully we got
everything
> > back together ok. Then we swapped sides. It's rather hard
to
> > tighten up the bolts appearing inside the car body without
the
> > shock absorber turning. It also prevents one from latching
on a
> > torque wrench. Anybody know about the special tool 50-200
(if I
> > recollect the number correctly) that's mentioned in the
factory
> > service manual to keep the bolt from turning? It's guess and
by
> > gosh as to what torque I'm getting. Things really creaked
after
> > reinstallation. Tightened down some more, and after awhile
the
> > creak became less. But it's still aggravating. It sounds
like
> > rubber slipping on metal, along with the occasional thump
when I
> > go over a bump (thump being more on the left side - old
> > right-side strut with the noise).
> >
> > Are the rubber pieces at the top of the strut supposed to be
> > really well squished? What kinda torque is that going to
take?
> > I think I'm already well over the ~25ft-lbs specified. Do
these
> > rubber pieces ossify with time, and should I try replacing
them?
> >
> > When the shop down the street installed new front struts for
me a
> > few years ago, they creaked while turning for awhile, but the
> > problem eventually went away.
> >
> > I saw on a website awhile ago special bearings that could be
put
> > in the rear, but it required a special weld job, which looked
> > like big work with big chances of screwing up. This rubber
stuff
> > looks like it is a royal pain if it doesn't sit in there
right.
> > I can even hear it creak when I get out of the car and the
car
> > raises up a bit.
> >
> > Creaking down the road in my electric jalopy,
> > Chuck
> >
> > Chuck Hursch
> > Larkspur, CA
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> > http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
> >
>
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