EV Digest 4959
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Any one have experience shipping wet cells?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
by Hump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV and Hybrid Rally around the White House this Saturday
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: KTA Services Website
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Running Time?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Walmart Heater Cooks
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: A Dumb Old Laptop Can Be Pretty Slick Tool
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Am I Killing Batteries?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Imp info
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for
Ampheads
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Am I Killing Batteries?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/2/05, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:19:14 -0800, Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Consider pouring electrolyte out and ship them as dry cells then.
> >Shipping requirements for dry ones are more relaxed.
> >
> >Perhaps electrolyte can be shipped in a separate container, but it
> >may be easier to just make new electrolyte from chemicals on
> >receiving end.
>
> That's my suggestion. Worse comes to worst, ship some dry KOH along
> with the batteries with instructions for mixing. Dry hazmat is much
> easier to deal with than liquid.
So what are you going to do with the electrolyte you just emptied out
of the cells?
Seems like a bit of a waste, and as already pointed out, there's no
way to refill these cells again anyway without drilling a hole in
them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sounds like the PFC Charger is not the best?
It just isn't as automated as some chargers. To some people this may
actually make it better ;^>
> What's the coldest the batteries can be if they have a
> charge on them.
Depends what you want them to do. A fully charged battery will start an
engine even at -40C (-40F) or lower, but a battery at that temperature
will have only a tiny fraction of its capacity at 25C and would be
unlikely to be provide usable range in a traction application.
> Seems odd to have charge a 0F battery at 16V (ie, a
> regular 12v PbA)
Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction ;^>
In practice, if a battery is this cold and discharged, then the
electrolyte may freeze and one would warm the battery before charging
it.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Am I Killing Batteries?(+)
mike golub [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sounds like the PFC Charger is not the best?
It just isn't as automated as some chargers. To some people this may
actually make it better ;^>
> What's the coldest the batteries can be if they have a charge on them.
Depends what you want them to do. A fully charged battery will start an
engine even at -40C (-40F) or lower, but a battery at that temperature will
have only a tiny fraction of its capacity at 25C and would be unlikely to be
provide usable range in a traction application.
> Seems odd to have charge a 0F battery at 16V (ie, a regular 12v PbA)
Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction ;^>
In practice, if a battery is this cold and discharged, then the electrolyte
may freeze and one would warm the battery before charging it.
Cheers,
Roger.
And I would think it will have risen well above 0f long before it gets to 16v.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well since this TV show is all about entertainment Why not make them a Bad
boy charger , I think seeing Rich using a bad boy charger would be
entertaining ----
- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman"
Ot and I are not into giving away 5000 dollar controllers and $2000
chargers... We have all the PR and orders we can deal with.
Rich If you add $100 on to the price of each charger you sell then you could
give one away with every 15 you sell :-)
Good luck with the show ,
steve clunn
We would gladly "loan" the gear.. but that may not be what happens.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> Yea.. all that stuff they are not telling me about....
> So I get to fend with what they get.
> This could be a real challenge... without our spiffy Chargers and
controller
> and ......meters...and..
> My night mare is a pile of floodeds and a few dozzen contactors....
>
> Oh Well... We gona have fun one way or the other....
>
> Madman.
>
Surely you can convince Ot to show up with the appropriate Freebie (good
advertising)!
And is Gadget invited, or is he too 15 minutes ago?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chip,
What a brilliant idea! Congratulations on organizing this EV Rally around
the White House! This is exactly the kind of high profile publicity EVent
we need right now at this crucial moment with the legislation promoting the
commercialization of EVs that has just been introduced in Congress.
If you haven't already done so, you might want to contact DC area resident
and RAV4-EV driver Bryan Murtha about this event. Bryan is on the RAV4 list
but I don't think he's on the EVDL, and this notice about the EV Rally
around the White House has not appeared on the RAV4 list. Bryan's email
address is: murtha at comcast dot net
There is also a second person in the DC area who has a RAV4-EV. I think he
lives in Columbia, MD. I don't know his name, but I believe that Bryan has
his contact info.
Speaking of that recently introduced legislation promoting the
commercialization of EVs, you might also want to contact the Congressional
offices of those Representatives and Senators who are sponsoring this
legislation in order to inform them of the EVent and to encourage them to
attend and even participate in the EV Rally around the White House. Here
again is the list of the co-sponsors and primary backers of the legislation
promoting the commercialization of EVs:
Rep. John Barrow (D-GA)
Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD), a PhD scientist and Chairman of the Peak Oil
Caucus
Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY), Chairman of the Science Committee
Rep. G.K. Butterfield (D-NC)
Rep. Vernon Ehlers (R-MI), a PhD physicist
Rep. Eliot Engel (D-NY), Co-Chair of the Oil and National Security Caucus
Rep. Mike Fitzpatrick (R-PA)
Rep. Jim Gerlach (R-PA)
Rep. Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD)
Rep. Phil Gingrey (R-GA)
Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA)
Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-AZ)
Rep. Gil Gutknecht (R-MN)
Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), Chairman of the Intelligence Committee
Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY)
Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC)
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA), Vice Chairman of the House Republican Conference
Rep. Randy Kuhl (R-NV)
Rep. James McGovern (D-MA)
Rep. John McHugh (R-NY)
Rep. Dennis Moore (D-KS)
Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA)
Rep. Jim Saxton (R-NJ), Co-Chair of the Oil and National Security Caucus
Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO)
Rep. Mark Udall (D-CO)
Rep. Tom Udall (D-NM)
Rep. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD)
Rep. Al Wynn (D-MD)
Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN)
Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS)
Sen. Norm Coleman (R-MN)
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT)
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL)
Sen. Ken Salazar (D-CO)
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL)
Congressman Bartlett was the first Member of Congress to purchase a hybrid.
He drives a Prius. I would imagine that there are probably at least a few
others by now, especially among this enlightened group above. It would
be great to get as many of these Congressmen and Senators as possible who
have hybrids to actually participate in the rally and drive their hybrids
around the White House.
If you happen to speak with Congressman Bartlett (who has a solar-powered
home), it would also be interesting to know if he might be amenable to
converting his Prius to a plug-in hybrid with E-Drive's aftermarket
commercial PHEV conversion kit for the Prius that is coming out in 2006
(www.edrivesystems.com). I'm sure that Pete Nortman and Greg Hanssen would
put Congressman Bartlett right at the top of their list if he is interested.
Have a great EV Rally at the White House this weekend!
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: EV and Hybrid Rally around the White House this Saturday
Calling all Electric and Hybrid Car Drivers: The Climate needs your
help!
Electric and Hybrid electric cars needed. 10 AM Saturday, December 3.
Rally near the White House. Assemble at MarcParc lot, 500 New York
Ave, 6th and K/Chinatown, and parade around the White House. World's
largest hybrid parade around the White House !!!!
Questions: Call Ann at CCAN (Chesapeak Climate Action Network,)
301-891-6844.
December 3rd is the international “US JOIN THE WORLD” day to push our
government to recognize and act upon global warming! The technology to
fight global warming is here today! Are you driving it?
If you own a hybrid, join CCAN on Saturday, Dec. 3rd, to show it in the
largest ever EV and hybrid car parade around the White House!
We all know that one of the biggest sources of air pollution and global
warming in America is automobile exhaust. Yet every year, Detroit makes
vehicles which, collectively, pollute more and more, even as affordable
clean engine technology abounds. Now’s your chance to say "Enough is
enough!" We need to join the world in fighting global warming by
starting right here, at home, by supporting federal and state clean car
legislation.
If you or someone you know is an electric or hybrid-electric driver and
would like to have a ton of fun for a good cause on December 3rd,
please contact us and we’ll give you the full details.
The rally will begin at 10:00 am at a location near the White House
with a rally, followed by the EV and hybrid car parade.
For more information, contact Anne Havemann, 301-891-6844,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To start the clean energy revolution and save the climate, we need
EVERYONE to get involved. Here’s a fun and easy way.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It's not an either-or situation in most cases. Bandwidth is
> cheaper'n dirt now. Not excuse whatsoever to run a bus at a
> snail's pace like 9600.
> As far as ASCII packet, YES, YES, YES!!!
This is the problem with the question having been posed out of context.
The context is that of having several (up to 32-34) devices all sharing
a common 9600bps serial bus to exchange data. The desire is to support
ASCII format data to make it easy to troubleshoot and to monitor data
exchanges with off-the-shelf serial terminal software and a simple
hardware adapter between the bus and the RS232 port. However, the
bandwidth available is limited to 9600bps, so ASCII format data packets
place significant constraints on the data transfer rates that can be
achieved. If essentially unlimited bandwidth could be assumed, then it
is a no-brainer to go with ASCII format data packets, but unfortunately
in this case the bandwidth is quite limited.
Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This seems to me to be a moot point.
>
> The e-meter can't share a bus without additional hardware.
>
> AFAIK all of the bus architectures that allow bus sharing can
> run at MUCH higher data rates so bandwidth shouldn't be an issue.
>
> If you are going to put an E-meter on such a bus (why?) then
> you'll need to add some kind of interface to do the
> conversion, and it could just as easily do buffering and data
> rate conversion.
The specific bus being discussed on the EV tech list is a 9600bps
isolated multidrop serial bus designed specifically for high noise
immunity in the EV environment. The debate is about what format the
data packets should have on this particular bus, which has very specific
bandwidth limitations.
If an E-Meter were to be connected to this bus, there would be some sort
of interface that would reformat the E-Meter's ASCII data packets into a
suitable format for transfer over this bus. The question is that given
that there could be as many as 32-34 devices sharing this 9600bps bus,
should the packets transferred over it still be in ASCII format.
As to why an E-Meter (or similar device) would be placed on a bus, the
answer is so that its data output could be communicated to a remote
display, or logged, and so that it could take advantage of data placed
on the bus by other devices (e.g. individual battery voltages and/or
temperatures, pack voltage and/or current, etc.) to do its job even
better than is presently possible.
This is why I think Lee's original question was a bit unfair, because no
one would argue for a non-ASCII format packet from an E-Meter or DMM
that can only connect directly to a single data logging/monitoring
device anyway.
Stefan T. Peters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There is a time and place for everything. If you are talking
> about some of the devices being $2-$4 embedded micros
> (because you need 60 of them), and they are only talking to
> each other. then using ASCII is merely a waste of many lines
> of conversion code (you actually think most applications run
> in BCD or ASCII representation internally?) and DOUBLE to
> TRIPLE the interrupts called to transmit and receive data
> (one byte sent as a number = '255' = 3 characters). Many
> applications just don't have this kind of leeway.
This is exactly the situation we are anticipating. We expect many of
the devices using this bus to be very simple embedded micros (like $1
8-pin parts bit-banging their serial port). They have to use the same
data packet format as a more powerful micro in an E-Meter-like device
sharing the bus does.
In normal operation the bus is used to allow devices to communicate
amongst themselves. However, devices must initially be configured, and
a plain ASCII data packet format would allow any off-the-shelf serial
terminal to be used for this. It is also desirable that it be possible
to monitor and log network traffic for later analysis, and plain ASCII
data packets would allow the use of any off-the-shelf serial terminal
for this.
Problem is that the use of plain ASCII packets greatly reduces the
amount of data that can be transferred because the bus bandwidth *is*
limited. So, the debate is whether it is better to stick with ASCII
format packets anyway and accept the reduction in data throughput, or to
use a more efficient packet format and require an intelligent adapter
between the bus and the off-the-shelf serial terminal (or a custom
terminal program and simple adapter) so that plain ASCII data is still
all that the user sees.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gee, you guys make it sound like rocket science.
The show budgets $5000 to pull off the "miracle".
It can't be done to a performance level satisfying even the newbie on this
list without begging and scratching for discarded or used stuff.
That was the case with the recent runabout->steamboat conversion on MG
earlier this year which aired in September.
There was the largely donated boiler ($20?), the heavily discounted or
donated antique steam engine, the fire sale on the boat and trailer itself,
and then the time of all those who helped to pull off the steam fitting,
machining, wood work, painting, etc.
I have long stood in both camps---EVs and steam propulsion---though so far
my personal experience has been with water vehicles.
If you asked me which took more work and was more intimidating,
1) Converting a 1950's Chris Craft to steam and getting it race ready
or
2) Converting an old 60's muscle car to electric and showing some tires
burning
I'd have to say the steamboat conversion would be far more daunting.
The NW Steam Society board (of which I'm a member) also was concerned about
the image and other risks which might be at stake should the project, which
a couple of our members joined, not go well.
Rather than condemning the show organizers and the limited $5000 opportunity
to show what steam was all about, our board members largely remained silent,
hoping the show and those we know who got recruited to do the conversion
would succeed or at least enjoy themselves and offer the public a chance to
see what steam could do. In the end, that's what happened----and it looked
like it was a hit for everyone.
Sometimes, despite the seeming stupidity of the expectations based on the
budget allocated (gee, this is a constant development challenge...) the best
you can do is try, and try not to get egg on your face doing it. Expecting
that you'll only be able to afford 2nd tier equipment at best, you can
always stash the BEST equipment (e.g. a PFC charger) in your back pocket to
show "what a real charger" looks like, and a Zilla controller for the same
reason. Then when Jesse can only afford a refurbished Curtis, at least you
can show the viewers what real money could buy you.
Okay, right, you didn't ask me, so I'll shut up...
-Myles Twete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric,
Just spoke with Ken Koch about the Zilla Z1K-EHV. That was a typo. The
correct price is $2850.00 not $1975.00
So sorry there isn't a sale on that one.
Other feedback on the site is welcome. It is kind of plain at the
moment, but we will be doing a site redesign at some point.
Chip Gribben
KTA Services Webmaster
http://www.kta-ev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and All,
According to Bob Bryant's Build your own EV book's battery
graph, it will go 300 minutes or about 5 hrs if newish and around 70F.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde"
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Running Time?
> Bob, the 145 designation is the minutes of capacity at a 75 amp draw so my
> best guesstimate would be close to 4 hours because 40 amps is almost half
> the draw and we all know about Peukerts, right.
> Hi Rod;
Thanks for the ideas. These T 145's have it made; no 400 amp launches, just
sitting there in a warm room, for a X mas display, running a 400 watt
inverter, pretty close to flat out. I thought it would be easier than
running chords around the Hall, loading the 2 batteries in a kid's coaster
wagon, origional "Power Wagon" for portable power, just drag it in and turn
it on.I was surprised at how much on the primary side, those inverters can
draw! The load is a buncha cheezy, Chinezy strings of lights, string o' 100
for 2 bux sort of thing.
Seeya
Bob
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've posted an article w/pics of our new ceramic heaters:
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/bring-on-the-heat
110vac and oscillating! ":^)
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi list,
As long as your monitoring/logging program (that reads and processes the
data stream) has a debug mode to dump out a human readable version of
the data stream, it doesn't really matter what format you use on the
wire.
Sure, its useful to be able to fire up a serial terminal program to
debug text data, plus it means that you don't technically need to build
the debug functionality into your program, but when you are trying to
squeeze as much through a 9600 bps pipe as possible, you really do need
to use binary, perhaps even with some rudimentary data compression.
Plus the whole checksum/error detection/error correction thing is pretty
important for a high noise environment.
Though when it comes to the incremental process of developing the
system, by all means start with plain text.
You are going to be reflashing micros many many times during
development, so when you discover that you absolutely MUST use a
compressed binary stream, its not such a big deal to flash them one more
time.
Plus, by this stage, you have already debugged the communications
hardware with the text version, so you have a certain level of
confidence that it works.
Mark
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
>
> <...>
> Problem is that the use of plain ASCII packets greatly reduces the
> amount of data that can be transferred because the bus bandwidth *is*
> limited. So, the debate is whether it is better to stick with ASCII
> format packets anyway and accept the reduction in data
> throughput, or to
> use a more efficient packet format and require an intelligent adapter
> between the bus and the off-the-shelf serial terminal (or a custom
> terminal program and simple adapter) so that plain ASCII data is still
> all that the user sees.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jimmy Argon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The 12 volt battery plates (as you know) are thinner
> and the insulators in between are more fragile than
> the ones used in deep 6s.
This is not true in all cases. A specific example is Trojan's new J150
12V battery:
<http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/NewProducts.aspx>
This battery uses the same plates as the T105, but arranged as a 12V
150Ah battery instead of a 6V 225Ah battery.
The odd angled ganged cell caps are a pain with respect to battery
holddowns, but if replaced by individual caps might not be too much of a
problem. The battery comes with SAE posts and threaded studs, so no
issue with the low profile universal terminals that are now commonplace
on the golf car batteries. I think this would be a good alternative to
the 30XHS if one wants to stick with 12V floodeds.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Definitely don't go out on a limb for any showbiz anything...ever.
'Nuff said.
Marv
Culver City
> From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:07:58 -0500
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
>
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:51:28 -0800, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Ot and I are not into giving away 5000 dollar controllers and $2000
>> chargers... We have all the PR and orders we can deal with.
>>
>> We would gladly "loan" the gear.. but that may not be what happens.
>
> I certainly see no reason to loan them anything. You're dealing with
> a network with revenues in the tens of millions. If they want to
> play, let them pony up the $$$ just like the rest of us do.
>
> I had an experience with this type of outfit last summer with Monster
> House. The star is from Cleveland so they came to town to remodel his
> mom's home. Quite a buzz in this little burg. Of my own volition, I
> catered a meal for the staff and crew at my cost. I asked the
> producer to give me a plug in the credits. I also took one of my
> electric scooters over and let 'em play with it for a day. Pix on my
> web site.
>
> Their response? The producer called back on the second week and
> harshly demanded that I donate another catering!!! Not even a simple
> "thank you" for the previous one. And of course, no credits.
>
> I only found out later that they'd gone all over town bumming
> construction materials for his mom's house. In other words, he used
> his position on the show to beg stuff for his family.
>
> This is just another example of a disturbing trend of those with lots
> of money begging from those with much less. I know that some of the
> folks who donated to Monster House took significant financial hits. I
> know I did. I don't imagine you and Ot are swimming in cash either.
>
> If they're going to butcher up a perfectly good muscle car in a
> botched attempt to electrify it, at least let 'em buy their own tools
> of destruction!!
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
> Possibly. The brakes are marginal to start with. Even though we are using
> racing pads,
Some race pads need to be hot to work best.
>the rotors and calipers are designed for a 2400 lbs street car
> vs. The Imp's 2800 lbs.
What size rotors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for picking up on this Chris. I initially offered $50, but after a
few days of learning about the situation via related posts I will raise it
to $100. I'll send it off as soon as I get a destination address.
You go guys!!!!!!
Richard (Northwest Electric Vehicles)
-----Original Message-----
Christopher Robison
Subject: COLLECTION, was Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
> As far as controllers someone did mention taking up a collection to buy
> parts which I think is a good idea. We could all help out and make the
> build successful. $5000 to spend on an EV isn't much so it will depend
> on freebies to some extent.
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
$5000 is definitely *not* going to make an impressive EV.
I'll chip in a couple hundred, can't afford much more than that at the
moment. Where do I send the check? :o) Who wants to step in to collect
donations?
I say let's get this organized and see how much we can put together.
Maybe this would be a PR donation effort worth getting the EAA chapters
involved in? I figure AustinEV's members could probably spare a few
dollars each if the purpose is clearly explained. We are about promoting
EVs, and this could be our biggest opportunity yet to do just that.
--chris
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<<$5000 is definitely *not* going to make an impressive EV.
I'll chip in a couple hundred, can't afford much more than that at the
moment. Where do I send the check? :o) Who wants to step in to collect
donations?>>>>
Then the real solution is to NOT donate any money, and have *their* completed
"monster" race against an established NEDRA record holder in the same class.
They'll have to pony up the donors (or cash) or they'll be eating crow, even
with experienced ampheads in the build crew.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been somewhat dismayed by all the negative commentary today about
the Monster Garage show, which has taken a lot of the wind out of my sails
on the idea of contributing to the "freebie fund". One problem is that I
actually agree with a lot of what's been said. Yes it *would* suck to
raise a lot of money to effectively *give* to an organization that's
already swimming in it, when most of us EV folks have so little to begin
with. I agree with Neon John -- I know they won't appreciate it; I know
we'll probably get no recognition for doing it. I also know that the
Discovery channel can MORE than afford a Z2K, a PFC50, a gaggle of Warp
motors and Aerobatteries to push it all down the track.
But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They may
have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how to
do the race at the end of the show.
But regardless, we do have an opportunity. One like we haven't really had
before, on a show that is already popular and has a large existing
viewership and a pre-established "cool factor" that can work in our favor
if things go well.
Even though we have to play their game (whatever it is), I think we *can*
make a difference in how EVs are represented to the public; I don't know
about the EAA as a whole or any of the other EV organizations whose
members subscribe to this list, but I know advocacy, education and public
outreach is part of the mission for our chapter in Austin.
And I think with the experience of persons we already know are a part of
this (in addition to Rudman, we at least we know the second is a NEDRA
member and has been chosen under recommendation) there's just enough of a
chance of this going well that I still personally feel it's worth a little
support. Even if it's going to a deep-pocketed corporation that doesn't
really deserve it. Even if there's a lot I don't like about the show and
the characters that seem to be running it.
Though it doesn't look like there will be many takers, I'm still
interested in chipping in. If no one else volunteers to collect, I'll even
step up to do it, maybe even with Paypal so it's easier for folks to do.
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> <<<<$5000 is definitely *not* going to make an impressive EV.
>
> I'll chip in a couple hundred, can't afford much more than that at the
> moment. Where do I send the check? :o) Who wants to step in to collect
> donations?>>>>
>
> Then the real solution is to NOT donate any money, and have *their*
> completed
> "monster" race against an established NEDRA record holder in the same
> class.
> They'll have to pony up the donors (or cash) or they'll be eating crow,
> even
> with experienced ampheads in the build crew.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They may
have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how to
do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather than any
money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the NEDRA
class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class record
holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I need to rig up the valet mode switch and set a lower current limit
and see how it goes.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I think you might have your current
limit set WAY to high.
CCA assumes a fully charged battery, just because a battery can handle
500+ amps when fully charged doesn't mean that it can still handle that
much when 50% discharged.
I managed to get good life out of my 8V GC batteries by never taking the
current over 300 amps, and when they got older I limited it to 250 amps.
You're using 12V batteries with even thinner walls. I'd guess you should
limit the current to 250 amps or less, if you want them to live for more
than 6 months. However, at this point it may be too late.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ricky Suiter
> To: EV List
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:30 AM
> Subject: Am I Killing Batteries?
>
>
> Alright, I've had the Saturn running for a couple months now and I'm in
> the process of getting the 2nd, maybe 3rd battery replaced already. I'm
> using Twelve Trojan 30XHS batteries, which I realize aren't that great for
> EV use, but I went in to it not expecting long range or huge cycle life.
> GEM car's use this same battery and tend to get a good 3 years out of
> them. I've got my current limit set to 500 amps, and I think the highest
> I've ever seen for one split second was 400 amps, normally I never draw
> more than 200. Even thought they're deep cycle they do have a CCA rating
> for crying out loud, which I realize isn't a good measure but it suggests
> they're capable of decently high currents.
>
> For cycling I generally do not take them past 50%. Once I had it down to
> 35%, but it was far from total battricide. I've kept them watered
> properly, I've kept the terminals tightened and clean as well.
>
> The first one died about a week in to it with a flat dead cell which
> didn't have any measurable sg what so ever, so it was a pretty clear
> replacement call. They said at Sunbelt they hadn't seen one do that in
> nearly 3 years. So I was good for a couple months, until a few weeks ago
> when I noticed after a couple miles I had no power. I stuck my volt meter
> to all the batteries and found one was down around 9 volts. I tried saving
> it, but it didn't do much. What's wierd is it acts perfectly normal until
> a certain point then it drops quickly. This one I've already been told has
> several shorted cells, I droped them off for testing yesterday. The one
> that was next to it in the pack was also exhibiting similar behavior, but
> not nearly as bad. I am still waiting to hear if it too is suffering from
> the same issue.
>
> So thus far I've had 2 or maybe 3 batteries have to be replaced, so what
> am I doing wrong here? I thought I was doing things right here. The rest
> of the pack is holding up like a champ. I've confirmed with two separate
> sources I'm charging properly (exactly as per Trojan's specs). I've done a
> couple equalizing charges also along the way. Is it possible I just got an
> iffy batch of batteries?
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a good idea. If we could put together enough for a Z2K, that would
make a great donation, and would make sure that the money doesn't get
blown on useless junk.
Perhaps I could set up a page with a Z2k as a monetary "goal" and folks
could see an updated display on how close we are?
How long do we have? When does filming start?
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> <<<<But here's how I see it. We aren't calling the shots. They are. They
> may
> have an agenda here, either to really see what can be done with electric
> power or to make fools of EV supporters and make us all look stupid. We
> don't know their rationale or motivations, and at any rate we have no
> control over it. Though it would be cool, we won't get to tell them how to
> do the race at the end of the show.>>>>
>
> Better gather money and offer an EV part (Z2K, Warp 9, whatever) rather
> than any
> money itself. If we knew what they were doing, and if it did fit the NEDRA
> class, it would certainly be more of his style for JJ to race the class
> record
> holder, don't you think? Someone email him a challenge!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:30 PM 2/12/05 -0600, chris wrote:
I have been somewhat dismayed by all the negative commentary today about
the Monster Garage show, which has taken a lot of the wind out of my sails
on the idea of contributing to the "freebie fund". <snip> that I still
personally feel it's worth a little
support. Even if it's going to a deep-pocketed corporation that doesn't
really deserve it. Even if there's a lot I don't like about the show and
the characters that seem to be running it.
Though it doesn't look like there will be many takers, I'm still
interested in chipping in. If no one else volunteers to collect, I'll even
step up to do it, maybe even with Paypal so it's easier for folks to do.
Hi All
MUCH better than contributing to the network would be contribute to the
"volunteers" to make sure that they are well equipped to do the deed.
If you want to donate, I'd suggest that to donate to Madman or the other
as-yet-nameless amphead to ensure that they are tooled, which then
may/should have a flow-on effect to other EV builders.
Ideas I'm thinking of are good crimps, cable shears, insulated
spanners/etc, Rich could have a charger there to get some quick charging
happening during the show - but 'bad-boy' charging for the cameras and the
budget. Whatever else these guys need (let them select the tools) to do the
job safely and efficiently, but take the tools/toys home at the end of the
show.
This would help show EVers in a good light, regardless of the outcome. A
bit of argy-bargy for the cameras of "use the insulated spanners you
[bleep] before you short that battery" could fit right in with what I've
heard of that show (never seen it).
What do y'all think?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was suprised at the power draws for this car, they do seem low. I can cruise
at 40 45mph-ish at about 50 amps once I get there. This is a 144 volt setup, 9"
ADC motor, Zilla1K controller. I'm getting these numbers from the Link10. It
actually didn't have a setting for 130ah so I set it to 120 to give me some uhh
ohh room. I set peukerts in to it and am relying on it to tell me state of
charge. The rest of the pack seems to be holding up like champions.
200 amps is when I'm doing the Zen driving thing. 250 - 300 amps gets it
going fairly well. Once the car gets rolling off the line you have to really
bog the motor down to pull lots of current. I actually didn't realize these had
a cranking rating until I saw it printed on the reciept.
I just got back from picking up two replacements. In the mean time I charged
each battery individually while it was out of commission and none of them took
much. The original batteries are all showing very close to eachother voltage
wise. I generally watch current while driving, but I'll pay closer attention to
the voltage.
All well, at least I didn't jump straight in to AGM's (the eventual plan).
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ricky Suiter wrote:
> I'm in the process of getting the 2nd, maybe 3rd battery replaced already.
> Twelve Trojan 30XHS batteries... current limit set to 500 amps... normally
> I never draw more than 200.
That sounds low for a Saturn. I would have expected it to go past 400 amps
every time you accellerate. If you "never draw more than 200a", the car would
barely accellerate.
> Even thought they're deep cycle they do have a CCA rating...
A CCA rating is an indication that it is *not* a deep-cycle battery, but
rather one intended for engine starting. Is it perhaps a "marine" battery
that is a compromise between a starting battery and a true deep-cycle
battery? Such batteries are cheap, but don't last very long in EVs.
> For cycling I generally do not take them past 50%. Once I had it down
> to 35%, but it was far from total battricide. I've kept them
> watered properly, I've kept the terminals tightened and clean as well.
How are you measuring state of charge? When you think you are 50%, maybe you
are really at 80%, and that 35% discharge actually ran them totally dead.
> The first one died about a week in to it with a flat dead cell which
> didn't have any measurable sg what so ever, so it was a pretty clear
> replacement call.
That sounds like infant mortality (bad from the factory).
> a few weeks ago... I had no power... found one was down around 9 volts.
> What's wierd is it acts perfectly normal until a certain point then it
> drops quickly.
You reversed a cell. This normally happens from excessively deep discharges.
Do you have a voltmeter? Are you pulling the pack below 1.75v/cell under load
(126v for a 144v pack)? To avoid damaging the batteries, drive so you never
pull the pack under 126v. This will mean feather-foot driving when the pack
is more than 50% discharged.
> So thus far I've had 2 or maybe 3 batteries have to be replaced, so what
> am I doing wrong here? I thought I was doing things right here. The rest of
> the pack is holding up like a champ. I've confirmed with two separate
> sources I'm charging properly (exactly as per Trojan's specs). I've done a
> couple equalizing charges also along the way. Is it possible I just got an
> iffy batch of batteries?
I can't tell if you got a bad batch of batteries, or whether you are abusing
them but don't know it.
It's possible that they gave you a few "old stock" batteries mixed in with
some newer ones, or that you got one or more batteries with manufacturing
defects.
But it's also possible that your instrumentation is lying to you, or you
aren't watching it when something bad is happening. Even under the best of
circumstances, these are not very good batteries for an EV of this size. A
golf car doesn't stress them nearly as much as a full-size car.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
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