EV Digest 4975
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ity bity electric car
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Open source car development?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Open source car development?
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Batterys
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by England Nathan-r25543 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Circuit breaker
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Circuit breaker
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Open source car development?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Open source car development?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Open source car development?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Open source car development?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16)
by "David McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) WaveCrest hub motors?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: WaveCrest hub motors?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV digest 4972
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Hydrogen's time has come
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
the SCE is not really a car it is just a NEV Neighborhood Electric Vehicle.
top
speed of 25mph
I find the SCB hybrid more interesting especially since it appears to be a
plug-in
hybrid...
/www.maranello4cycle.com/en/energia/sce.php
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How would it be different from open source program development?
Well, the idea is definitely a noble one... but the main difference is
that software is *virtual*, doesn't actually exist in the physical world
(you can't hold in your hand a box of "bits & bytes"). This allows you
to *construct* software using only time and thought. Those two
ingredients are free for everybody. Take some free compilers (GNU) and a
cheap way to communicate openly (Internet), add in some talent, and
WALA! You have an open source project.
To make a vehicle (any machine really) in the same fashion would require
a source of free/affordable machine tools (compiler), we have the second
ingredient (Internet), but machines exist in the real world, hence you
need raw supplies - lots and lots of them! (look at the amount of "waste
bytes" any open source project creates, it is an innovative but
fundamentally inefficient development environment)
Now an open source EV *design* is quite possible, but you will see much
less involvement then most software projects. I can (and do) contribute
to many open source software projects without spending a dime, only some
weekend/evening time. Every time I test/prototype one of my
contributions/fixes before I submit it, it still costs me nothing. If
this were instead say a circuit change for a motor controller on an EV,
it would cost me money almost every time I wanted to contribute. Ideas
are free, but putting them into reality isn't, unless it's made of those
darn etherical bits. This is the exception that has made open source
software a reality. Plus, if I (joe-schmoe contributor) mess up a piece
of software, it's pisses you off - if I mess up a piece of a car, it can
kill you...
I agree that the best bet is to join all the forums and lists you find,
and to try to help others in whatever way you can. That can't possibly
hurt the chance of getting EVs accepted sometime soon ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree there should be clear goals and some sort of schedule too.
Version 1.0 could be just a sketch, then version 1.1 and so on... I
personally don´t have much of expertise in cars, but I could be the one
asking all the stupid questions. :)
Lots of work though, and would require better english skills I suppose.
But it would be fun to questionize all the conventional solutions -
start from the scratch!
Osmo
8.12.2005 kello 20:55, Don Cameron kirjoitti:
Osmo, looks like you found a gap here. Why not start up a yahoo group
(or
your favourite), and invite people to participate? My suggestion is
to make
sure the goals are clearly defined, then decide what shape the car
needs to
have, then start off on the design, with various people contributing.
You
can publish your designs as CAD files and other documentation as PDF.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
Sent: December 7, 2005 10:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Open source car development?
Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project
certainly.
How would it be different from open source program development?
Programmers
get their product done in the computer, a car can be made only
virtually of
course.
http://www.theOSCarproject.org
http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
http://open-car.org/
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I approached IOTA about using their DLS-55 on the
Sparrow (the production NMG, I don't own one but I do
contract engineering for Myers-Motors). I tried to
find out specifications that are not published that
the engineers would know, such as minimum DC input at
reduced output loads (152Vdc is published - actually
108Vac), but I'm sure it will work at much lower
voltages with reduced load.
I talked to application engineering several times and
left messages with sales. They never answered my
questions so I gave up. Maybe if you are more
persistant they'll work with you.
Good luck.
Rod
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi EVeryone,
>
> I know this topic has been hashed over in the past,
> but I'd like to find
> out some more specifics. First off, I've been using
> twin IOTA DLS-55
> units for a year, and have been very happy. I know
> it's been expressed
> that these aren't *designed* for EV use, and
> therefore could end up
> failing early. But I'm interested in real-world
> experience. The most
> common question posed to me is "What DC/DC should I
> use". I have been
> recommending the IOTA's.
>
> So here's my list of questions for you all:
>
> 1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
> 2) Has anyone had a failure?
> 3) Anyone not pleased with it's performance?
> 4) How many using the 240V and how many the 120V?
> 5) How high with DC will the 240V unit go?
> 6) Where did you get yours?
>
> Based on the responses I get, I'll be considering
> approaching IOTA about
> a few things (one of which is possibly selling the
> units).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for
> December!
> Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That auction has a reserve price. 150 AH, he wants $99-$150/ea for
them. He's got another auction for them with a $99 starting price and a
$150 Buy-It-Now so I assume the reserve is one of those figures.
Danny
Rich wrote:
Battery on Ebay
Item number: 8732132783
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IOTA didn't answer my questions either. :(
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
Ryan,
I approached IOTA about using their DLS-55 on the
Sparrow (the production NMG, I don't own one but I do
contract engineering for Myers-Motors). I tried to
find out specifications that are not published that
the engineers would know, such as minimum DC input at
reduced output loads (152Vdc is published - actually
108Vac), but I'm sure it will work at much lower
voltages with reduced load.
I talked to application engineering several times and
left messages with sales. They never answered my
questions so I gave up. Maybe if you are more
persistant they'll work with you.
Good luck.
Rod
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi EVeryone,
>
> I know this topic has been hashed over in the past,
> but I'd like to find
> out some more specifics. First off, I've been using
> twin IOTA DLS-55
> units for a year, and have been very happy. I know
> it's been expressed
> that these aren't *designed* for EV use, and
> therefore could end up
> failing early. But I'm interested in real-world
> experience. The most
> common question posed to me is "What DC/DC should I
> use". I have been
> recommending the IOTA's.
>
> So here's my list of questions for you all:
>
> 1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
> 2) Has anyone had a failure?
> 3) Anyone not pleased with it's performance?
> 4) How many using the 240V and how many the 120V?
> 5) How high with DC will the 240V unit go?
> 6) Where did you get yours?
>
> Based on the responses I get, I'll be considering
> approaching IOTA about
> a few things (one of which is possibly selling the
> units).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for
> December!
> Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, I'm trying to be patient here, but I guess I have to spell it out
(again):
My argument was hypothetical. I do not recommend wiring anything in
that way, because it is obviously dangerous. I know it won't work for
an external fault on the non-tripping leg.
Maybe I have to yell it:
*** IT ONLY SERVED TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT ABOUT WHETHER DUAL-POLE
BREAKERS WERE TRULY A SERIES CIRCUIT ***
*** STOP QUOTING ELECTRICAL CODE ***
Sheesh.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Interesting discussion and enlightening to people not knowledgeable
about AC circuits.
However, MMMM let's look at this a minute. One breaker senses over
current condition
while a tied second leg does NOT sense an over current situation.
Now SUPPOSE that some metal item (or human for that matter) bridges
the circuit containing the "dumb" breaker (really a switch now) to
ground/neutral and shorts the circuit. REAL Breaker does not trip (no
problem there) and failure will occur at the weakest link in the
second dumb breaker chain, a wire,
device causing the short whatever.
FIRE will happen as this is a simple and effective producer of a great
amount of heat able to ignite whatever combustible material in its
presence.
Follow the national / local electrical code and spare yourself a tragedy!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Eric, I understand what you're trying to say, but....
Try looking at it a different way....
You have 2 completely seperate circuits. A 240v circuit and a 120v circuit.
They just happen to share one of the breakers and some of the wiring but they
are indeed seperate circuits.
These three sentences are at odds. If you're including the breaker in
your series circuit, then it's (or at least 1/2 of it is) a common
element with the 120V circuit, and they are not separate.
The 240V circuit uses two 20 amp breakers connected in series.
Not if it's a mixed 240/120 device. Series circuits have the same
current flowing at every point. Since you're including the breaker in
your "series circuit," that means the same current in both breakers. An
ammeter near each pole of the breaker would show differing currents in
the (non fluffing) dryer example.
I think we're splitting hairs here: You can say that the breakers are
"wired in series", but you cannot say it's a "series circuit".
The 120V circuit uses one of those breakers and has absolutely nothing in
common with the other breaker, except the handles are mechanically tied
together.
Your example with the dryer in fluff mode is faulty. In that instance there is
no 240v circuit, only the 120v circuit is active.
Again, splitting hairs: So if a 240V appliance only draws current on
one pole, it's no longer a 240v appliance?
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit breaker
A series circuit would (by definition) have equal current at every point.
In the dryer example, it's entirely possible that only one pole of the
breaker could see an overload, with no current flowing through the opposite
pole. Having a motor seize while the dryer is in "fluff"
mode (no heat) would be a perfect example. In this case, you can't say that
the breakers are wired in series, as there is another current path it can
take to complete the circuit that does not involve both poles of the
breaker. It's conceivable you could have a device that simply uses both
poles completely independently, and it's conceivable you could have a device
that truly uses the power in series (like an electric water heater).
You can't claim the breakers are in series because you can't know what kind
of device will be plugged into it, thus completing the circuit.
I wouldn't say they're parallel, either. Just separate.
Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Let me modify that a bit; this is an electric dryer:
+120V +120V Neutral
| | |
___|___ ___|___ |
| | | |
| ______|______ | |
| 20A | 20A | Circuit |
| ------|------ | Breaker |
| | | ______|________
|_______|_______| | Tumbler Motor |
| | |_______________| |
|____________________|
| |
| |
| |
|__/\/\/\/\/\/\__|
Heating Element
It is common to combine 120V and 240V devices inside of one
appliance. In this instance, you do need neutral, and ground is a
good idea for appliances with metal exteriors. If a dryer were truly
series, the only one "tripping" style CB would be necessary -- it
could be mechanically ganged to a "switch only" CB. Since only the
barest minimum components are put in when new homes are built, the
"trip/manual" dual ganged CB would be common.
I don't recall anybody saying that a dryer (the complete appliance) is
wired in series...
Sure, an electric dryer, like many home appliances, is a device with
both 240V and 120V components. So What?? That doesn't change the fact
that the circuit breakers are wired in series with respect to the 240V
component (in this case the heating element) to provide the 240V
supply. If this were not true, then you should be able to turn off one
side of the double pole breaker and still have the 240V component
working. This is not the case. It also doesn't change the fact that
the 240V component needs no neutral or ground to operate (though a
ground is always nice to have for safety!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Ryan. I've been considering just this question, and am VERY
interested in the results. I contacted IOTA about possibly selling to
this market over a year ago, but received no response. I hope you have
better luck. The other option I have seen is a powerstream
PST-DCH-P500 (http://www.powerstream.com/), but they are quite lacking
in data on their website, and, as with IOTA, emails go unanswered.
> From: Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EV List <[email protected]>
> Subject: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
>
> Hi EVeryone,
>
> I know this topic has been hashed over in the past, but I'd like to
> find
> out some more specifics. First off, I've been using twin IOTA DLS-55
> units for a year, and have been very happy. I know it's been
> expressed
> that these aren't *designed* for EV use, and therefore could end up
> failing early. But I'm interested in real-world experience. The
> most
> common question posed to me is "What DC/DC should I use". I have
> been
> recommending the IOTA's.
>
> So here's my list of questions for you all:
>
> 1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
> 2) Has anyone had a failure?
> 3) Anyone not pleased with it's performance?
> 4) How many using the 240V and how many the 120V?
> 5) How high with DC will the 240V unit go?
> 6) Where did you get yours?
>
> Based on the responses I get, I'll be considering approaching IOTA
> about
> a few things (one of which is possibly selling the units).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
Dave Brandt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:01 PM 12/8/2005, you wrote:
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Eric, I understand what you're trying to say, but....
Try looking at it a different way....
You have 2 completely seperate circuits. A 240v circuit and a 120v
circuit. They just happen to share one of the breakers and some of the
wiring but they are indeed seperate circuits.
These three sentences are at odds. If you're including the breaker in
your series circuit, then it's (or at least 1/2 of it is) a common element
with the 120V circuit, and they are not separate.
The 240V circuit uses two 20 amp breakers connected in series.
Not if it's a mixed 240/120 device. Series circuits have the same current
flowing at every point. Since you're including the breaker in your
"series circuit," that means the same current in both breakers. An ammeter
near each pole of the breaker would show differing currents in the (non
fluffing) dryer example.
I think we're splitting hairs here: You can say that the breakers are
"wired in series", but you cannot say it's a "series circuit".
The 120V circuit uses one of those breakers and has absolutely nothing in
common with the other breaker, except the handles are mechanically tied
together.
Your example with the dryer in fluff mode is faulty. In that instance
there is no 240v circuit, only the 120v circuit is active.
Again, splitting hairs: So if a 240V appliance only draws current on one
pole, it's no longer a 240v appliance?
Stay Charged!
Hump
"mesh current circuit analysis"
All the current flowing thru the 240V load is going thru both
breakers. One breaker may have some additional current for the 120V load,
this does not change the fact that everything in the 240V circuit is a series.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Eric Poulsen wrote:
You can't claim the breakers are in series because you can't know
what kind of device will be plugged into it, thus completing the
circuit. I wouldn't say they're parallel, either. Just separate.
--and--
I wasn't trying to make any comment about what was safe, legal, best
practice, smart, dumb, or anything else. Simple fact is, most
electric dryers use 120VAC motors for the tumbler.
I don't understand why you think I was claiming that the breakers are
always in series regardless of the type of load(s), because I don't
recall making such a statement.
If you read my last post again, you'll see that I said:
"That doesn't change the fact that the circuit breakers are wired in
series with **respect to the 240V component(s)**"
In fact, I was never talking about dryers specifically, nor was I
talking about 120V devices. You brought those up. I was talking about
simple 240V loads to help illustrate Lee's original point that ganged
household circuit breakers are electrically in series with each other
when powering **240V loads**. Again, I'm not talking about any 120V
loads they might also be powering, as these are *separate* loads and are
(IMO) completely irrelevant to the original discussion.
I'll stop there as I fear this whole thread has gotten OT. :-)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would be nice to see open source EV control software, for example, open
source AC induction motor control reference designs.
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Osmo Sarin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:18:50 +0200
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Open source car development?
I agree there should be clear goals and some sort of schedule too.
Version 1.0 could be just a sketch, then version 1.1 and so on... I
personally don´t have much of expertise in cars, but I could be the one
asking all the stupid questions. :)
Lots of work though, and would require better english skills I suppose.
But it would be fun to questionize all the conventional solutions -
start from the scratch!
Osmo
8.12.2005 kello 20:55, Don Cameron kirjoitti:
Osmo, looks like you found a gap here. Why not start up a yahoo group
(or
> your favourite), and invite people to participate? My suggestion is
> to make
> sure the goals are clearly defined, then decide what shape the car
> needs to
> have, then start off on the design, with various people contributing.
> You
> can publish your designs as CAD files and other documentation as PDF.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
> Sent: December 7, 2005 10:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Open source car development?
>
> Does anyone know if there are any active, "open source green car"
> projects going on? With a quick googling I didn´t find any.
>
> What do you think, would it be possible? A complicated project
> certainly.
> How would it be different from open source program development?
> Programmers
> get their product done in the computer, a car can be made only
> virtually of
> course.
>
> http://www.theOSCarproject.org
> http://www.ihpva.org/wiki/index.php/
> Open_Source_Velomobile_Development_Project
> http://www.makezine.com/01/car/
> http://open-car.org/
>
> Osmo
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/8/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would be nice to see open source EV control software, for example, open
> source AC induction motor control reference designs.
Yeah that's the holy grail, I think. It would be nice if it was cheap
enough to actually build, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 8, 2005, at 3:09 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
On 12/8/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It would be nice to see open source EV control software, for example,
open
source AC induction motor control reference designs.
Yeah that's the holy grail, I think.
I guess the Grail ended up in Australia. That would have been quite a
quest :)
<http://innovexpo.itee.uq.edu.au/2003/exhibits/s354264/>
Unless this design turns out to not be open source. The circuit
designs and board layouts and code are all included in the thesis, but
I'm not sure about ownership or licensing.
It would be nice if it was cheap
enough to actually build, too.
Can't help you there, sorry. Although the prototype was built for
AUS$960 according to the thesis documentation.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/8/05, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guess the Grail ended up in Australia. That would have been quite a
> quest :)
>
> <http://innovexpo.itee.uq.edu.au/2003/exhibits/s354264/>
That looks interesting, thanks for the link.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
set ev mail digest
end
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody hear of, or work with this company or their products?
www.wavecrestlabs.com
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody hear of, or work with this company or their products?
www.wavecrestlabs.com
They are a well known, well respected brushless motor and controller
technology startup company that designs BLDC hub motors and controllers
with a reported 20 million invested in research, development and
production of their top-of-the-line electric bike product. The company
has recently stopped production of the bikes and they are currently
shopping the company and the tech behind it. Reported asking price is 12
million.
The TidalForce bikes they made are amazing. Nothing better in the
market.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So George has been driving me nuts, repeatedly going on Jay Leno, and
not talking about his new wheels, when I know Jay is a car nut, when I
know Jay has driven a tZero, when I know Jay owns at least one
electric car.
But tonight, it actually happened! With the backdrop discussion being
the Middle East, oil, our flawed policies, and Clooney's new movie
Syriana [which is getting great reviews], there is this exchange:
Jay: Well, is the war in Iraq about oil?
George: Ummm, I don't know. I would think, you know, you listen to,
most people I think would argue that there's no question about the
idea that it is a predominant reason for it. I don't think you can
argue that.
Jay: Well if we won, why isn't it cheap now?
George: yeah, it should be cheap.
Jay: Shouldn't it be, like, 19 cents? I mean... we...
George: We should get a break, don't you think?
George: We should get... it should be really cheap. For a long time.
Jay: I mean... can you predict a world without oil? Is that possible?
Would it be possible to have any kind of economy without oil?
George: I think we'd have to. Eventually we'll run out. Sooner or
later, we're going to have to. But I don't... you know... Well, you
were here today I saw you had the....
Jay: That's right, we both drove our electric cars
George: Yeah... yours is 100 years older than mine.
Jay: Mine is 94 years older than yours.
George: Yeah.
Jay: Well, we'll show 'em. Now, where's yours? Let's see.
George: Mine's the, uh, yeah...
<picture shown of both cars side by side....>
Jay: There's mine right next to it.
<much crowd laughter>
George: Now, the one that I drive also comes in men's <laughter>...
which would have been, probably, good to add.
Jay: But you know something, yours does not go any further. Yours
goes 20 miles further on a battery charge. Mine goes 110 miles on a
battery charge.
George: Oh it does? Mine goes 100 and... 150.
Jay: Pfffmt!
George: Psssh!! But I'll race you for a pink slip!
Jay: Mine holds 4 people!
Jay: Yeah, but mine, only 2 more payments left on mine!
George: Exactly!
Jay: Now, set up our clip. This is a.... You know what I love about
this movie is, you play a real guy. 'Cause they... you know when they
do fiction like this, everybody knows karate, and all this kind of
nonsense... and you're just an average, overweight.... guy..... No,
you put on... you put on like 30 pounds for this, right?
George: yeah, 35 pounds
Jay: Oh yeah, he looks completely different. Just did a wonderful,
wonderful job.
George: I look like Raymond Burr!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hopefully someone with an HD tuner card will be able to get a screen
capture of the picture of Leno's 1911 black electric whatever-it-is
next to Clooney's black Tango...
- - - - -
Tired of 250MB limits on your free e-mail?
Want to search your mail in seconds, not minutes?
Want to read your mail by conversation, not one at a time?
Want a gmail account?
I love mine! Just send me mail (off-list please!) and I'll send you an invite!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think there is something that many people aren't seeing about the Max
voltage ,. There are also 2 other Max's . Max rpm and Max amps . To get the
voltage across the motor to 170v your going to need lots of rpm and lots of
amps . I'm wondering if this isn't how they get the max motor voltage , by
looking at the motor voltage when Max rpm and Max amps are being seen.
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
Mueller, Craig M wrote:
What's the maximum voltage an advanced FB1-4001 can be supplied?
!DSPAM:43985b0023291384668860!
Around 170-190VDC is pretty much the limit before arcing begins to eat at
things. For non-race applications I would keep it below 170 or so.
Not this is voltage applied to the motor which is not the same as pack
voltage. Using a Zilla, which can limit motor voltage, you could run a ADC
from a much higher voltage pack without risk of damage.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that RPM is related and there certainly is a maximum that you
shouldn't exceed, but I don't think there is a discernable maximum
amperage, and I don't think it's related. Here's my understanding:
First, amps determine torque, and have nothing to do with RPM or volts. If
you're going down a steep hill in a low gear and are barely applying power
from the controller, you'll have very low amps going through the motor,
but very high volts if the motor is spinning fast due to back EMF.
Similarly, when you take off from a stop you could have a thousand amps
going through the motor at 20 volts or so. The two values aren't
necessarily connected -- you *don't* need lots of amps to get high motor
volts.
Second, I don't think you could really quote a maximum amperage for any
motor, without also considering duration. Amps of current isn't the real
limit -- the real limit is temperature. Any motor will have a maximum
*continuous* current for a given amount of airflow, but EVs don't operate
in this mode and spend a good part of their operating life above that
current rating. The higher the current above that value, the shorter time
you can maintain it. But theoretically you could reach insane current
levels as long as the duration is short enough to prevent the winding
temperature from exceeding the rating of the insulation.
Do I have this correct, or is there something I'm missing?
--chris
STEVE CLUNN said:
> I think there is something that many people aren't seeing about the Max
> voltage ,. There are also 2 other Max's . Max rpm and Max amps . To get
> the
> voltage across the motor to 170v your going to need lots of rpm and lots
> of
> amps . I'm wondering if this isn't how they get the max motor voltage , by
> looking at the motor voltage when Max rpm and Max amps are being seen.
> Steve Clunn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Max voltage FB1-4001
>
>
>> Mueller, Craig M wrote:
>>
>>>What's the maximum voltage an advanced FB1-4001 can be supplied?
>>>
>>>
>>>!DSPAM:43985b0023291384668860!
>>>
>>>
>> Around 170-190VDC is pretty much the limit before arcing begins to eat
>> at
>> things. For non-race applications I would keep it below 170 or so.
>> Not this is voltage applied to the motor which is not the same as pack
>> voltage. Using a Zilla, which can limit motor voltage, you could run a
>> ADC
>> from a much higher voltage pack without risk of damage.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Calvin,
These J150s are interesting new batteries (thanks to Roger for
mentioning them, as I wasn't aware of them). They have a rated energy
density that's almost exactly the same as a T-105.
I do believe they might have the same plates as the T-105, however
this doesn't come for free. They are much longer dimensionally (3.5
inches) than the T-105s. These won't fit nicely in your existing
Electrica boxes. You're going to have to rearrange them, and find
some sort of padding for the gaps. Might not be worth it.
Here are some estimated energy densities for different popular Sealed
Lead Acid batteries (and some NiMH thrown in for comparison). Units
are in Wh/liter.
US Battery US-1800 74.31
US Battery US-2000 77.64
US Battery US-8VGC 80.43
US Battery US-2200 83.18
Trojan T-105 84.30
Trojan J150 85.56
Hawker Genesis G70EP 85.85
US Battery US-8VGCHC 86.77
US Battery US-125 86.88
Trojan T-125 88.85
US Battery US-145 90.21
Panasonic EC-EV1260 91.45
Trojan T-145 97.97
Cobasys 9500 149.12
Cobasys 9500 166.74
Richard
> content-class: urn:content-classes:message
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> Subject: RE: EV digest 4964
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:40:33 -0800
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Calvin King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > So the the question still stands with a minor charge
> > > Does this mean that I could use 10 - J150's and get better results
> > > than my current set up of 16 T105's, that is better milage
> > > per charge and better acceleration?
>
> 10 J150s = 10 x 84lbs = 840lbs, 120V, 87.5Ah @ 75A, about 10.5kWh
>
> 16 T105s = 16 x 62lbs = 992lbs, 96V, 144Ah @ 75A, about 13.8kWh
>
> The pack of J150s results in higher voltage and lighter weight, both of
> which should contribute to better acceleration. We don't know how
> "stiff" the J150s will be compared to the T105s, but the nominal voltage
> is higher and the current draw for a given power level should be lower
> than for the T105s, so it is likely that they will provide a higher
> battery power than the T105s.
>
> Range per charge is pretty much proportional to the battery weight when
> comparing batteries of the same chemistry and configuration (i.e. both
> options are flooded PbA). This suggests that the T105s might deliver as
> much as 18% more range per charge, however, I suspect the difference
> will be less. The J150 pack actually increases the nominal pack voltage
> by 25%, which means that the current required to maintain a given speed
> should be about 25% lower than with the T105 pack. The difference will
> probalby not be quite this great since the voltage of the smaller J150s
> will likely sag a bit more than that of the T105s, but the lower current
> should still translate into the effective capacities of the two packs
> being more nearly equal than the numbers above indicate.
>
> As well, the lighter pack may result in a bit lower rolling losses and a
> bit less energy use when accelerating or climbing hills, both of which
> will help to increase the range obtainable with the J150 pack.
>
> So, there is no definite answer as we don't yet have any real world
> experience with the J150s in on-road EVs. Since they use the same
> plates as the T105s, it is expected that they should deliver a similar
> cycle life. The hand-waving above suggests that a 120V pack of J150s
> should result in improved acceleration without a large decrease in range
> per charge.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was in our local newspaper, thought the list
would be interested in this 'EV' fuel source.
Hydrogen's time has come
Brian J. Jankura was wrong (``Hydrogen may not be the
answer,'' Voice of the People, Nov. 28) that we can't
use our Ovonic triple-junction photovoltaics to break
up water through electrolysis. We can, and we do.
He was right, though, that ``manufacturing'' the fuel
requires electricity. That electricity comes from the
sun's light (photons) interacting with our thin-film
lightweight solar cells to produce electricity.
Of course we love electric cars, but hybrids will have
to do at the moment.
Jankura was wrong again on his two other points.
Hydrogen is a fuel. When one mines coal, one is doing
that to get the small amount of hydrogen. The carbon
in coal is only the carrier of hydrogen, which is what
gives the energy.
When one drills oil and then processes it, it has only
a bit higher hydrogen content than coal; the ultimate
fuel is hydrogen, which is not difficult to produce
and, in containers of our Ovonic solid hydrogen
hydrides, is transportable by ordinary means such as
trucks, trains and barges.
Unlike gaseous hydrogen, which Jankura thinks we are
using, the Ovonic solid-hydrogen hydride canisters we
plan on making in Akron are safe. The U.S. Department
of Transportation permits us to transport them
anywhere.
Our Ovonic nickel metal hydride batteries, which store
hydrogen in the same manner, have been extensively
tested to the extreme for many years by the world auto
industry. These hydride batteries have enabled the
present rapidly growing hybrid auto industry, which is
producing higher-value jobs that feed back on
education.
One need not imagine what happens in an accident.
Jankura's fears only apply to high-pressure gaseous
hydrogen or liquid hydrogen, which are both very
unsafe. What is unsafe for the world is having
pollution, climate change and wars over oil caused by
relying on fossil fuels for our energy.
Lastly, I receive no benefit but joy in being able to
provide this basic new industry to Akron, my hometown.
Stan Ovshinsky
Energy Conversion Devices Inc.
Rochester Hills, Mich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw that too. Wish I was recording because that little clip where they showed
the Tango sitting next to Jay's... was that a Baker electric? Anyways, it was a
really cool shot.
Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So George has been driving me nuts,
repeatedly going on Jay Leno, and
not talking about his new wheels, when I know Jay is a car nut, when I
know Jay has driven a tZero, when I know Jay owns at least one
electric car.
But tonight, it actually happened! With the backdrop discussion being
the Middle East, oil, our flawed policies, and Clooney's new movie
Syriana [which is getting great reviews], there is this exchange:
Jay: Well, is the war in Iraq about oil?
George: Ummm, I don't know. I would think, you know, you listen to,
most people I think would argue that there's no question about the
idea that it is a predominant reason for it. I don't think you can
argue that.
Jay: Well if we won, why isn't it cheap now?
George: yeah, it should be cheap.
Jay: Shouldn't it be, like, 19 cents? I mean... we...
George: We should get a break, don't you think?
George: We should get... it should be really cheap. For a long time.
Jay: I mean... can you predict a world without oil? Is that possible?
Would it be possible to have any kind of economy without oil?
George: I think we'd have to. Eventually we'll run out. Sooner or
later, we're going to have to. But I don't... you know... Well, you
were here today I saw you had the....
Jay: That's right, we both drove our electric cars
George: Yeah... yours is 100 years older than mine.
Jay: Mine is 94 years older than yours.
George: Yeah.
Jay: Well, we'll show 'em. Now, where's yours? Let's see.
George: Mine's the, uh, yeah...
Jay: There's mine right next to it.
George: Now, the one that I drive also comes in men's ...
which would have been, probably, good to add.
Jay: But you know something, yours does not go any further. Yours
goes 20 miles further on a battery charge. Mine goes 110 miles on a
battery charge.
George: Oh it does? Mine goes 100 and... 150.
Jay: Pfffmt!
George: Psssh!! But I'll race you for a pink slip!
Jay: Mine holds 4 people!
Jay: Yeah, but mine, only 2 more payments left on mine!
George: Exactly!
Jay: Now, set up our clip. This is a.... You know what I love about
this movie is, you play a real guy. 'Cause they... you know when they
do fiction like this, everybody knows karate, and all this kind of
nonsense... and you're just an average, overweight.... guy..... No,
you put on... you put on like 30 pounds for this, right?
George: yeah, 35 pounds
Jay: Oh yeah, he looks completely different. Just did a wonderful,
wonderful job.
George: I look like Raymond Burr!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hopefully someone with an HD tuner card will be able to get a screen
capture of the picture of Leno's 1911 black electric whatever-it-is
next to Clooney's black Tango...
- - - - -
Tired of 250MB limits on your free e-mail?
Want to search your mail in seconds, not minutes?
Want to read your mail by conversation, not one at a time?
Want a gmail account?
I love mine! Just send me mail (off-list please!) and I'll send you an invite!
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
