EV Digest 4976
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hydrogen's time has come
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Aircraft designers look at new forms of energy
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: IOTA as DC/DC revisited
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Open source car development?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Open source car development?
by Dave Gibbons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hydrogen's time has come
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Circuit breaker
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Hydrogen's time has come
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Setting up a Direct Drive
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Open source car development?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV digest 4972
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Reflections on the EDTA Conference - Vancouver BC - LONG
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Setting up a Direct Drive, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:07 AM 12/9/2005, you wrote:
<< snip >>
Hydrogen is a fuel. When one mines coal, one is doing
that to get the small amount of hydrogen. The carbon
in coal is only the carrier of hydrogen, which is what
gives the energy.
When one drills oil and then processes it, it has only
a bit higher hydrogen content than coal; the ultimate
fuel is hydrogen, which is not difficult to produce
and, in containers of our Ovonic solid hydrogen
hydrides, is transportable by ordinary means such as
trucks, trains and barges.
<< snip >>
Stan Ovshinsky
Energy Conversion Devices Inc.
Rochester Hills, Mich
He is either trying to mislead or he has no idea. I can not imagine the
amount of coal that would be needed to feed an average size power plant if
only the hydrogen in the coal was used.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Detroit Electric I think. LR.........
I saw that too. Wish I was recording because that little clip where they
showed the Tango sitting next to Jay's... was that a Baker electric?
Anyways, it was a really cool shot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Baker and uses the original Ni-Fe batteries!! He wrote an article
about it in Pop Mechanic mag which should be online.
Jerry Dycus.
Detroit Electric I think. LR.........
>I saw that too. Wish I was recording because that little clip where they
>showed the Tango sitting next to Jay's... was that a Baker electric?
>Anyways, it was a really cool shot.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two articles of interest from the December 2005 issue of AOPA Pilot
magazine:
Aircraft designers look at new forms of energy
------------------------------------------------
Energy. It's one of those heavy load-bearing words like love or war that
mean many things to people on different levels. Lately it's been connected
with the word crisis, thanks to escalating gas prices. To futurists, it
means opportunity.
Several projects are under way to take advantage of multiple forms of
energy. Alisport, an Italian aircraft company, says it has produced the
world's first production electric-powered aircraft with its Silent2 and
Silent Club self-launching sailplanes. The initial thrust stemmed not so
much from fuel prices, but from noise restrictions in Europe. The Silent
Club can climb at 470 fpm up to an altitude of 2,500 feet on one charge.
Unlike combustion engines, the electric motor is not affected by density
altitude. It looks like a normal slick composite glider, but housed in trap
doors behind the pilot, the electric motor and prop lift up and forward like
a pocketknife. Once the pilot has reached enough altitude for soaring
conditions, the motor and propeller retract.
Another electric-powered self-launching sailplane called the Antares is
being developed by Lange Flugzeugbau in Germany.
On a full charge it can climb quietly to 10,000 feet with its 57-horsepower
motor. It can be recharged in the field by a portable generator. Besides
the obvious advantages offered by mechanical simplicity, electric motors
improve reliability so that with enough juice left in the batteries, the
pilot could potentially work his way out of a jam. Accidents have occurred
in self-launching piston-powered gliders when pilots let themselves get too
low and weren't able to start the gas engines in time.
If there is such a thing as a hybrid aircraft currently in production -- to
draw a parallel with the auto industry -- it has to be the Stemme S10-VT
motorglider. It has the glide ratio (50-to-1) of an Open Class racing
glider once the propeller is tucked away in the nose, yet can cruise at 140
knots above 10,000 feet. With a 115-horsepower turbocharged Rotax engine,
it has a service ceiling of about 30,000 feet. By taking advantage of
wind-generated mountain wave and ridge lift as well as thermals, the only
real limitations are the pilot's skill and creativity.
A California company called Solar Flight, meanwhile, has been examing the
Stemme S10 closely and thinks it's what future electric-powered aircraft
will look like. Solar Flight plans to build a two-seater, similar to the
Stemme, followed by a four-seater. Solar Flight was founded by Eric
Raymond, who flew the single-seat solar-powered Sunseeker across the United
States in 1990 over a 21-day period. Solar Flight also is developing a
solar-powered blimp called the Sunship. The company hopes it will be the
first solar-powered aircraft to fly around the world.
And Jim Dunn of Advanced Technology Products in Worcester, Massachusetts,
has been developing an airplane powered by a hydrogen fuel cell as part of a
learning project for students at Worcester Polytechnic Institute. The
aircraft is a lightweight French-made DynAero Lafayette III and potentially
could have a range of more than 500 miles.
AOPA Online survey: Avgas prices
-------------------------------------
Eight-six percent of respondents to AOPA's recent online survey say that
increases in avgas prices have affected their flying. And anecdotal
information showed wild fluctuations in avgas prices throughout the country
with some who paid more than $5 per gallon. While many respondents said
they had already cut back on flying as avgas prices surged past $3 and $4
per gallon, 391 out of 575 respondents (68 percent) said they would curtail
their flying if avgas reaches $5 per gallon. Another 18 percent of
respondents said they would curtail their flying if avgas was to reach $6
per gallon. A minority, 5 percent, said it would keep flying even if avgas
prices hit $10 per gallon. As for the future of avgas, the terms "bleak,"
"not good," and "dismal" were often used, kindling new interest in auto gas
supplemental type certificates and calls for alternative fuels. "Airplane
for sale!!!" blared one member. "I'm still waiting for the jet replacement
engine, but jet fuel is insanely expensive as well," said another.
Note: AOPA, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, is the largest
pilot organization in the country with over 600,000 members in the US. AOPA
Pilot is its monthly magazine.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <>
So here's my list of questions for you all:
1) How many of you are using an IOTA?
I have a few :-)
2) Has anyone had a failure?
I have one in My work truck , I had it at 150 v and did not have it set up
to be off when charging , It work fine for along time , then one time the
extention cord shorted , which tripped the braker. The pack was almost full
,, I didn't know it wasn't working till 1/2 way home that night , The
charger was fine but somthing broke in the IOTA 30
6) Where did you get yours?
I bought some off sombody on the list ,
ased on the responses I get, I'll be considering approaching IOTA about
a few things (one of which is possibly selling the units).
That EV source , always one step ahead of the rest of us . :-) I'll bet
they have electric lawn mowers for sale before I do .
Steve Clunn
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Free Shipping on *all* items in our store for December!
Includes Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> But it would be fun to questionize all the conventional solutions -
start from the scratch!
Hoorah! I like that goal... but you will need some serious active
"flame-retardant" (or just lots of open minds)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be happy to offer my English skills to a project like this. I've published
over 40 books, and was a technical writer/editor for Intel for 5 years.
Plus, I'm hoping to network my way into getting some helping hands out here.
I'm disabled with Multiple Sclerosis, so I probably shouldn't start fumbling
gas motors out of my vehicles. ;-)
-DaveG
Beaverton, OR
From: Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Open source car development?
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:18:50 +0200
To: [email protected]
Lots of work though, and would require better english skills I suppose.
----------------------
"Could you not stand in my grandfather's blood while you're etymologizing?"
asked Trophie.
Check out the hilarious parody "The BaLoney Code" at thebaloneycode.com! Not
endorsed by The Vatican or, more importantly, by Dan Brown.
----------------------
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Andre' Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He is either trying to mislead or he has no idea. I
> can not imagine the
> amount of coal that would be needed to feed an
> average size power plant if
> only the hydrogen in the coal was used.
a lot...but not an unimaginable amount. I am not an
expert in coal, but curiosity made me look up a few
numbers:
while H2 only makes about 2-3% of coal by mass, it
accounts for about 20 % of the energy released in
burning.
consider grade E coal which has about 2.4 % H2 by mass
and a UHV of about 3670 cal/gm.
H2 has a HHV of 120 MJ/kg = 28662 cal/gram.
So .024 grams of H2 has an energy content of 688 cal.
688/3670 ~ 19%
interesting (to me, anyways),
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I googled info on Jay Leno's electric car and came across this article:
http://wiki-shorts.freestat.pl/27-2354-Battery_electric_vehicle.html
Very interesting reading.
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
> Hi Lawrence and All,
>
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Baker and uses the original Ni-Fe batteries!! He wrote an
article about it in Pop Mechanic mag which should be online.
> Jerry Dycus.
>
> Detroit Electric I think. LR.........
>
>
> >I saw that too. Wish I was recording because that little clip where they
> >showed the Tango sitting next to Jay's... was that a Baker electric?
> >Anyways, it was a really cool shot.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Shopping
> Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm not suggesting not having two poles (current breaking
> points), I'm suggesting that only one of them be of the
> "series trip" type.
OK; sorry, I missed that sublety.
> Let me clarify: I mean two physically ganged circuit breakers
> (on for each pole of the 220). One circuit breaker would be a
> "switch only" type (no non-manual breaking of any kind), the
> other would be overload sensing (would trip in an overcurrent
> condition, and also flip off the "switch only" breaker). In
> a truly series arrangement (and ignoring ground faults or
> other non-series current flows), this could work, with
> the tripping breaker being physically ganged to the
> non-tripping breaker.
I would agree with this. (I would also say a "purely series" rather
than "truly series" arrangement.) In theory, if there is absolutely no
other possible current path than from one hot to the other, then one
could do this, however, as we both appreciate (and lots of others have
been pointing out ;^), the reality is that alternate current paths are
possible from either hot to neutral or ground, and so we must use
overload sensing breakers in series with each hot to be protected.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought Leno had a lithium powered Chrysler Crossfire with Valance batts?
Why didn't he show that one off? It will go over 100mph and gets over 100
miles per charge!
Jeff Wilson
USA (Ret)
Solectria E-10 http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/669.html
Plug in the cord; not the pump.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jorg Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 3:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Clooney and Leno discuss their electric cars
So George has been driving me nuts, repeatedly going on Jay Leno, and
not talking about his new wheels, when I know Jay is a car nut, when I
know Jay has driven a tZero, when I know Jay owns at least one
electric car.
But tonight, it actually happened! With the backdrop discussion being
the Middle East, oil, our flawed policies, and Clooney's new movie
Syriana [which is getting great reviews], there is this exchange:
Jay: Well, is the war in Iraq about oil?
George: Ummm, I don't know. I would think, you know, you listen to,
most people I think would argue that there's no question about the
idea that it is a predominant reason for it. I don't think you can
argue that.
Jay: Well if we won, why isn't it cheap now?
George: yeah, it should be cheap.
Jay: Shouldn't it be, like, 19 cents? I mean... we...
George: We should get a break, don't you think?
George: We should get... it should be really cheap. For a long time.
Jay: I mean... can you predict a world without oil? Is that possible?
Would it be possible to have any kind of economy without oil?
George: I think we'd have to. Eventually we'll run out. Sooner or
later, we're going to have to. But I don't... you know... Well, you
were here today I saw you had the....
Jay: That's right, we both drove our electric cars
George: Yeah... yours is 100 years older than mine.
Jay: Mine is 94 years older than yours.
George: Yeah.
Jay: Well, we'll show 'em. Now, where's yours? Let's see.
George: Mine's the, uh, yeah...
<picture shown of both cars side by side....>
Jay: There's mine right next to it.
<much crowd laughter>
George: Now, the one that I drive also comes in men's <laughter>...
which would have been, probably, good to add.
Jay: But you know something, yours does not go any further. Yours
goes 20 miles further on a battery charge. Mine goes 110 miles on a
battery charge.
George: Oh it does? Mine goes 100 and... 150.
Jay: Pfffmt!
George: Psssh!! But I'll race you for a pink slip!
Jay: Mine holds 4 people!
Jay: Yeah, but mine, only 2 more payments left on mine!
George: Exactly!
Jay: Now, set up our clip. This is a.... You know what I love about
this movie is, you play a real guy. 'Cause they... you know when they
do fiction like this, everybody knows karate, and all this kind of
nonsense... and you're just an average, overweight.... guy..... No,
you put on... you put on like 30 pounds for this, right?
George: yeah, 35 pounds
Jay: Oh yeah, he looks completely different. Just did a wonderful,
wonderful job.
George: I look like Raymond Burr!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hopefully someone with an HD tuner card will be able to get a screen
capture of the picture of Leno's 1911 black electric whatever-it-is
next to Clooney's black Tango...
- - - - -
Tired of 250MB limits on your free e-mail?
Want to search your mail in seconds, not minutes?
Want to read your mail by conversation, not one at a time?
Want a gmail account?
I love mine! Just send me mail (off-list please!) and I'll send you an
invite!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat and All,
Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> He is either trying to mislead or he has no idea. I
> can not imagine the
> amount of coal that would be needed to feed an
> average size power plant if
> only the hydrogen in the coal was used.
He,
>Stan Ovshinsky
>
>Energy Conversion Devices Inc.
>
>Rochester Hills, Mich,
is a scammer big time !! He screwed everyone on both his Solar panels which
died many times within a couple yrs or less and did not honor his warranties.
Then he claimed all kinds of long life for his NiMH batts for
EVs and they too failed early and most did not meet spec even new, leaving many
holding the bag
Now his new H2 stuff is bound to do the same. The man has no
shame.
a lot...but not an unimaginable amount. I am not an
expert in coal, but curiosity made me look up a few
numbers:
while H2 only makes about 2-3% of coal by mass, it
accounts for about 20 % of the energy released in
burning.
consider grade E coal which has about 2.4 % H2 by mass
and a UHV of about 3670 cal/gm.
H2 has a HHV of 120 MJ/kg = 28662 cal/gram.
So .024 grams of H2 has an energy content of 688 cal.
688/3670 ~ 19%
But that's not how you get H2 from coal.
What you do is heat it up to release what H2 it has until it
incandeses, then hit it with high temp steam which the carbon left in the coal
strips of it's O, leaving H2 free for use, thus turning water into fuel, H2.
This is called the water gas process I believe but a way to get much more H2
out of coal.
You can even take the CO, CO2 it makes and use it to strip more O
from water though not as eff. But would be a good way to use solar thermal
power to seperate the O2 from CO2, CO so it can be reused to make more H 2.
Though the best thing is using CO, H2 to make liquid, gasous HC
fuels, FT, so it is easier to use, transport and store. Then use the waste heat
from that process to run the process and make electricty.
That is by far the best thing one can do to make something
useful from gasification preferably from waste biomass, not coal. Biomass has
much more h2 vs coal per weight.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
interesting (to me, anyways),
~fortunat
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought Leno had a lithium powered Chrysler
Crossfire with Valance batts?
Why didn't he show that one off? It will go over 100mph and gets over 100
miles per charge!
If he is a savey buyer and I think he is, he will shortly, or
has, found out that it can't do what it said it could as it's battery pack is
too small to go the range they told him.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Jeff Wilson
USA (Ret)
Solectria E-10 http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/669.html
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could use some help in thinking about how to
properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
do this?
Thanks
Joel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
I could use some help in thinking about how to
properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
do this?
Hi Joel
I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives the
gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s that
has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of White
Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be used (not
necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To use the
output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor is probably
the most effective, although depending on your access to machining may not
be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors that I am keeping aside
with ideas to make them up onto an assembly similar to White Zombies' old
setup, but include the back end of the transmission. If I ever get there
that would go into the wifes' Nissan Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the transmission
is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil thoughts to bolt
up the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs and put a tiddly
little motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em every time].
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intriguing idea. I share your curiosity. Actually I was under the impression
that these motors had enough torque that transmissions weren't actually
necessary in an EV. It's just "easier" to bolt the motor to the clutch and
leave the transmission in place when doing a conversion. Who might know if this
is practical or not?
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Silverman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Setting up a Direct Drive
I could use some help in thinking about how to
properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
do this?
Thanks
Joel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It would be nice to see open source EV control software, for
> example, open source AC induction motor control reference designs.
There are plenty of examples of open source motor control software;
basically any company that offer processors targetting motor control
applications provides examples of motor control code. TI, for instance,
offers open source code for control of various AC motors, etc.
Of course, this open source code shows you how to control a particular
type of motor using a particular control strategy (space
vector/field-oriented control, V/F control, etc.), but does not include
higher-level, and perhaps EV-specific logic such as how you will handle
various fault conditions, etc.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Dec 09, 2005 at 12:52:58PM -0800, jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi Jeff and All,
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I thought Leno had a lithium powered Chrysler Crossfire with Valance batts?
Neat! It looks cool.
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products.php?sec=3
Does anybody know how much they cost?
<..snip..>
>
> If he is a savey buyer and I think he is, he will shortly, or has, found
> out that it can't do what it said it could as it's battery pack is too
> small to go the range they told him.
I looked all over, but I could not find detailed specs. Where did you find the
packs energy storage ability?
I did notice that they indicate the "power system" is 25KW. Also, in the
pictures, the motors look like ETeks. I did not think you could get that much
out of an ETek. Does anybody here have any examples of full sized ETek powered
conversions?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crud. I thought these were prices at first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Calvin,
These J150s are interesting new batteries (thanks to Roger for
mentioning them, as I wasn't aware of them). They have a rated energy
density that's almost exactly the same as a T-105.
I do believe they might have the same plates as the T-105, however
this doesn't come for free. They are much longer dimensionally (3.5
inches) than the T-105s. These won't fit nicely in your existing
Electrica boxes. You're going to have to rearrange them, and find
some sort of padding for the gaps. Might not be worth it.
Here are some estimated energy densities for different popular Sealed
Lead Acid batteries (and some NiMH thrown in for comparison). Units
are in Wh/liter.
US Battery US-1800 74.31
US Battery US-2000 77.64
US Battery US-8VGC 80.43
US Battery US-2200 83.18
Trojan T-105 84.30
Trojan J150 85.56
Hawker Genesis G70EP 85.85
US Battery US-8VGCHC 86.77
US Battery US-125 86.88
Trojan T-125 88.85
US Battery US-145 90.21
Panasonic EC-EV1260 91.45
Trojan T-145 97.97
Cobasys 9500 149.12
Cobasys 9500 166.74
Richard
content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: EV digest 4964
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:40:33 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Calvin King [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So the the question still stands with a minor charge
Does this mean that I could use 10 - J150's and get better results
than my current set up of 16 T105's, that is better milage
per charge and better acceleration?
10 J150s = 10 x 84lbs = 840lbs, 120V, 87.5Ah @ 75A, about 10.5kWh
16 T105s = 16 x 62lbs = 992lbs, 96V, 144Ah @ 75A, about 13.8kWh
The pack of J150s results in higher voltage and lighter weight, both of
which should contribute to better acceleration. We don't know how
"stiff" the J150s will be compared to the T105s, but the nominal voltage
is higher and the current draw for a given power level should be lower
than for the T105s, so it is likely that they will provide a higher
battery power than the T105s.
Range per charge is pretty much proportional to the battery weight when
comparing batteries of the same chemistry and configuration (i.e. both
options are flooded PbA). This suggests that the T105s might deliver as
much as 18% more range per charge, however, I suspect the difference
will be less. The J150 pack actually increases the nominal pack voltage
by 25%, which means that the current required to maintain a given speed
should be about 25% lower than with the T105 pack. The difference will
probalby not be quite this great since the voltage of the smaller J150s
will likely sag a bit more than that of the T105s, but the lower current
should still translate into the effective capacities of the two packs
being more nearly equal than the numbers above indicate.
As well, the lighter pack may result in a bit lower rolling losses and a
bit less energy use when accelerating or climbing hills, both of which
will help to increase the range obtainable with the J150 pack.
So, there is no definite answer as we don't yet have any real world
experience with the J150s in on-road EVs. Since they use the same
plates as the T105s, it is expected that they should deliver a similar
cycle life. The hand-waving above suggests that a 120V pack of J150s
should result in improved acceleration without a large decrease in range
per charge.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's something important to consider -- John Wayland has direct drive
on the Zombie, and I'll be doing the same thing soon myself, partly to
reduce weight and complexity, but also partly due to problems with clutch
slip under extreme torque. Be aware that in order to successfully
implement a direct-drive vehicle, you'll have to have:
- a motor capable of very high torque, or
- a low performance/range expectation and very effective motor cooling, or
- a very low intended top speed, so you can use a shorter ratio in the rear.
And be aware that because your motor will be spinning more slowly in
general (whenever your vehicle is not near its maximum speed), it will
continuously be operating in a less efficient RPM range, and may present
problems with overheating without additional cooling.
On the other hand, you'll be gaining some efficiency from losing the
transmission. Nonetheless, I'm expecting it to be a net efficiency loss
for my project vs. a smaller motor and a transmission -- but hopefully not
by too much, especially if I have a separate set of rear-end gears for
street use, topping out at 75 or so at redline.
--chris
James Massey said:
> At 12:57 PM 9/12/05 -0800, Joel wrote:
>>I could use some help in thinking about how to
>>properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
>>through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
>>for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
>>do this?
>
> Hi Joel
>
> I assume you are intending to keep the rear axle assembly? That gives the
> gear reduction to allow a motor to run at reasonable RPMs.
>
> The ::best:: way I know of is to have a new shaft put into the motor/s
> that
> has the tailshaft spline cut directly into it (along the lines of White
> Zombies' current setup). That way a standard tailshaft can be used (not
> necessarily the original of the donor vehicle).
>
> If it is a street use vehicle, in most places in the world there is a
> requirement for an odometer, in which case it would be an issue. To use
> the
> output shaft and back end of a gearbox grafted onto the motor is probably
> the most effective, although depending on your access to machining may not
> be cheap for you. I have a pair of 7" GE DC motors that I am keeping aside
> with ideas to make them up onto an assembly similar to White Zombies' old
> setup, but include the back end of the transmission. If I ever get there
> that would go into the wifes' Nissan Skyline (used as a shopping trolley).
> We replaced the transmission last year, and the length of the transmission
> is about the space I'd need for the two DC motors. [Evil thoughts to bolt
> up the front end of the tranny to conceal the two GEs and put a tiddly
> little motor onto the old input shaft stub...get 'em every time].
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reflections on the EDTA – Conference
I find it hard to even think about trying to shrink 2 and ½ days of
intense EV INPUT into a document which folks in the EV community who
were Not there would enjoy reading.
But I must give it my best try.
First let me say, that there is a LOT MORE going on in the real EV Auto
World these days compared to 5 years ago. Consortium, on top of Focus
Group, on top of Legislative lobbying , on top of real world popularity
of the various (as they are called lite – Hybrids) and 30,000 little GEM
Bubble cars !
Everyone at the conference, from manufacturer, to supplier, to
environmentalist, to businessman, to small time EV Club Presidents
agreed on the following…
a. Oil is finite and will only cost more and More and MORE.
b. World demand for oil is growing faster than any one expected.
c. Effects of Oil Demand and Cost is being felt from the Pentagon
to the Sierra Club.
d. Gas Fed Hybrids alone can Not curb the oil consumption.
e. Pure Battery Electrics can not capture the everyday buyer.
f. Global Warming and the Environment IS on the minds of the average car
buyer.
g. Fuel Cells and the H2 Economy is too far off, or may never happen.
h. THAT leaves the ONE car that can do both jobs…(short and Long
Trips).. The Plug IN Hybrid. ..Especially as it may have as its liquid
fuel, local bio-fuels, and electricity from ever-increasing renewable
sources someday…
First, I must apologize for missing the “Ride and Drive” segment,
although the thought of riding round in an open GEM in 35 deg. Weather
was not all that exciting.
I hit the display hall running ! Chatting with folks from SAFT Li-Ion
batteries, UniqueMobility, Azure Dynamics ( formerly Solectria)
building Medium Duty Hybrid trucks, Cobasys Batteries, Electrovaya HIGH
OUTPUT Li-Ion Batteries, Toyota, Honda, EDTA(Electric Drive
Trans.Assoc.), EPRI( Electric Power Research Institute), Altairnano –
developers of new anode materials for Li-Ion, to bring the safe op. temp
problems from 130 to over 230 deg.( NO MORE Melt Downs - or so they
say), Bill Moore of EV World, Dr. Seal (retired) from Western
University Bellingham Wa. Auto Engineering Department, Randy Blosil of
RASER – one of the founders of the HybridConsortium.org which is
gathering everyone who would contribute to the PHEV under one
co-operative and Open-Source group, to include Felix Karamer at CalCars,
Maxwell Ultra Caps, SoCal Edison Power, and a dozen others., Charles
Botsford of AeroVironment, The folks from Dynasty “IT”, Randy Holmquist
and his wife from Canadian EV Ltd. , Robert Stempel, Chairman of the
Board of ALL of GM (retired), The President, and the CEO’s of GEM
Calmer/Chrysler, Daryl Slushier of Austin Energy and their very
aggressive PHEV Campaign, which will SOON go National.
There was ONE rather interesting encounter… however…. As I was
chatting with Robert Dean of UQM, and chatting about his time with the
GM EV1 program… I asked him if he had heard of the up-coming movie “EV
Confidential” about how the electric car got killed… To my surprise
he had NOT. As we were talking I looked over to the next booth, and
said…”I don’t believe this… I think that gal in the red hair and black
leather coat, was IN THE MOVIE” … So I excused my self and went to her
and said….” Are you the gal who made me tear up as I watched the trailer
to the movie ‘EV Confidential’… the one who told a crowd how your
little boy would not be able to ride in the EV1 any more ??? “ And
she gave me a hug, and said YES!! Her NAME is Chelsea Sexton.. She
worked for the GM EV1 Division. She IS in the movie, knows the
producers, and Half of every one else who is any one in the EV world who
was at the show… She got me UP-TO-Date on the movie too. It is going to
be featured at the Sundance Film Festival next month in Colorado.. So
it is getting closer and closer to national release. She now is working
with the “X-Prize” and is very hush-hush about their next contest
Hummm…. Wonder if it could have any thing to do with EV’s
Also at one point while sitting in another seminar I was flanked by
Sherry Boschert – President of the San Francisco Bay EAA club, David
Goldstein – President of the Washington DC EAA Club, and Darryl McMahon
reporting for the Ontario EAA Club. It was also nice to bump into some
local Washington and Oregon folks too, mainly Bruce Meyland and gang,
and several folks from the Seattle/Tacoma area…(Max imbarrisment Mode –
cant remember their names.). well there was Josh from Seattle, and Mark
from MC Electric, and then the fellow from the Tacoma area with the
Dodge Dacota Electric PU…. (sorry man….)..but it was great to have folks
to talk to and hang out with… And I must not leave out Robert Larsen,
who lives in Sequim WA. but commutes ( WOW! )to his job at Argonne
National Labs in Chicago...He will try to visit our SEVA meetings some
time this Spring...
Lastly, but not least, several times during the two days, when folks
had a chance to ask questions of the ‘Talking Heads’, more than once,
folks would pose the question “Why all the money and interest in Fuel
Cells, when every one knows it is a loss-loss proposition
‘well-to-wheels”.. and half the room would break out in applause !!
That gave me HOPE that we can re-prioritize our collective efforts back
towards BEV’s and PHEV’s ( that is if we could afford the $ Big Federal
lobbyists that Big Oil and Big Auto have had...)
Want to thank the Board of SEVA for helping out with a few $$ Hundred
Dollars towards our trip, and Mark Hanson from the Washington DC area
for sharing his room with me for two nights. ( At $8.50 for ONE BEER at
the bar… this place..” Pacific Place Hotel and Convention Center” ) was
no place for any one without a large expense account… if you get my
drift. Thanks also to Toyota, Honda, EDTA, and others who hosted most
all the breakfast’s, lunches, and dinner/cocktail parties… Couldn’t
have done it with out them…
Hope to see other contributors, and perspectives on the LIST soon. I
know Bill Moore of EV-World, and Bruce of Electrifying Times, will have
lots to say as well. Till Then….
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Setting up a Direct Drive
> Intriguing idea. I share your curiosity. Actually I was under the
impression that these motors had enough torque that transmissions weren't
actually necessary in an EV. It's just "easier" to bolt the motor to the
clutch and leave the transmission in place when doing a conversion. Who
might know if this is practical or not?
> Don
Hi Don an' Joel;
The big reason for re using a tranny on an EV is for the convenience.
You have a buncha gears, 4 or 5 to play with, PLUS reverse, so you don't
hafta pop for an expensive reverse contacter cluster. Most of the popular EV
motors like to turn up more RPM than the gasser that the car had. The clutch
slips in an extreame torque event, like starting off in high gear, or you
dumping all your power into starting up, if you have a powerful enough
controller. This breaks things! As you have ALL your torque at starting, not
at revving like a gas engine. I can leave my Rabbit in high gear and drive
around just fine except you use hugh amounts of amps, something that you
don't have that to spare! Trains and trolleys are direct drive and don't
care. What's a few thousand amps to them? They get it by wire, but YOU
don't! Think , If ya have a 10 speed pedal bike you start off in low gear,
but you don't, easier for you, or yur batteries if you gear off, from the
get go.Think of the clutch as a mechanical fuze, and if you have a "Full On"
controller failure you can throw in the clutch. Of course that will
overspeed and kill the motor, but that's better than ramming somebody in a
Lamborgini! Standing on the brakes MAY slow you down, but the DC motor will
out-torque most brakes. Uncontrolled brakestands can be embarrasing in
traffic<g>!All that smoke and noise!
Now, start with a clean sheet of paper; EV-1 Rav -4 , that sort of
thing. You design your vehicle AROUND the drive train. These guys went
direct drive and designed a setup to do it, high gear , high speed motor,
controller to do the job. The White Zombie is pretty much like this ,
designed to do the racing Friday nite, and STILL be a decent grocery go
getter, and plenty FAST enough. Of course if you drive it like Tim or John,
yur gunna be walking home! But go easy, and I think you'd have a decent
range? But you need DEEEP pockets for the battery able to handle those
currents! One, say 11 inch or 9 inch motor running 4 or 5 to one rear end,
in a light car, would do it. But Zombie only weighs about 12 lbs without all
the E gear aboard<g>!As it's an old car, from the daze of 1500 lbs with fuel
an' water aboard, as an ICE! Lighter than a Jokeswagen bug, even!
Cars have porked out over the years. It's hard to find anything that
light, making a conversion an excersize in masicism, trying to stay below
the weight of a trolley car with all the batteries aboard. That's why we
commoners stick with trannies.And you can play with the gears to find the "
Sweet Spot" best speed, lowest amps.In the case of a FWD conversion, all
your tranny mounting is done for you already, all you do is hold up the end
of the motor, like on a Rabbit.Easy!
Get back to the question; All you hafta do is mount the motor about
where the tranny was on a RWD car, as far aft as you can reasonably fit it.
Have a shop fit a universal joint to the shaft and have a custom shaft cut
to fit. It would be pure dumb luck that the origional shaft was " Just
right"!! Shops do this sorta thing for gas guyz doing customizing all the
time, a regular daze work for them. But you have to come up with a damn good
motor mounting setup, so the car's wheels turn, rather than the motor!
Rubber mount everything so it won't sound like a subway train, not an
unpleasent sound but in a car ya want QUIET! That silky POWER wafting ya
down the street. That's part of the EV Grin you hear about on here so much!
Seeya
Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joel Silverman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 3:57 PM
> Subject: Setting up a Direct Drive
>
>
> I could use some help in thinking about how to
> properly connect an electric motor to a driveshaft
> through a u-joint. I want to set up a direct drive
> for a rear wheel-drive car. What is the best way to
> do this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Joel
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
>
--- End Message ---
