EV Digest 5035
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV acceptance idea
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Festiva or Metro
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) so-called "WrightElectric" whips Ferrari 360
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) old curtis 1221 specs ?
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Range in Rudman, was Re: Units of EV merit
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 1983 Grumman Olson EV on SF Craigslist
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Pic vs mc68HC05
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Pic vs mc68HC05
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electron flows and heating (was: Re: advanced dc motor (temp sensor))
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller (LONG)
by "Steve Arlint" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 1983 Grumman Olson EV on SF Craigslist
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pic vs mc68HC05
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller (LONG)
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Electron flows and heating
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Electron flows and heating
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second those thoughts.
I thought I'd try building a controller. Got up to 10 amps and 24 volts.
Learned about the power trininty (fet,diode,cap). Learned what I could to
make it work better. Still a pretty poor controller. Cut my losses and
chalked that one up to experience. Actually found it in the garage when
cleaning and gave it a proper disposal.
I now have a clue as to what goes into a controller, and appreciate those
that build them professionally.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
p.s. contactors are quicker anyway
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
> It seems to me that there are two basic reasons why people want to build
> their own controller:
>
> 1) For the education.
> 2) The (generally) mistaken believe that they will save money.
>
> If you are doing it for the education and can afford letting the smoke out
> of expensive components, then go for it.
>
> If you want to save money, I have an alternative suggestion. Get yourself
> a part time job (McDonalds, WalMart greeter, whatever). In less time than
> you would have spent trying to build a working controller you can earn
> enough money to buy a brand new one and save all the cash that you would
> have spent on expensive smokeless components.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Government calculates typical car usage. I believe the Dept of Energy
calculations are
that the average driver goes less than 50 miles a day. The typical use is
commutes and
short trips, some at low speeds but some at highway speeds. The Dept of
transportation has
information on how small the percentage is, of those who commute 100-plus miles
per day to
work. It is very easy to believe you need the ability to go 500 miles in a day,
but most
people don't do that regularly.
There is an analogy in cell phones. Some people think they need a zillion
minutes and then
find they don't use them. There is also a growing number of people who don't
have a land
line at all. People could recharge EV's every day or every week depending on
use. As most
people depend on a car more, this analogy breaks down. People ride in a car.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: EV acceptance idea
>
> > Typical? That can't be right... if the typical car was "full highway
> > use", they would all be parking lots. Since comments like these pop up
> > regularly, I think our little EV community is slanted towards those who
> > are not suburban (am I right?). Please realize that the vast majority of
> > people in this country live in a large city, close to work and services.
> > I haven't been on a highway (besides the in-laws for thanksgiving) for
> > over three years now. And I live outside of town.
>
> This is why I suggested we define a set of 'measurements' and maybe we are
> able to agree on something to define the 'range' as something like the
> distance a vehicle is able to travel on a set temp., on a flat hard
> surface with a defined speed until the battery reaches a defined DOD
> level.
>
> We should do it metric though. Here the example:
>
> 1 Rudman (Roden, Merz, Whatever) = Distance (in Km) travelled at 70 Km/h -
> 20 Degrees Celsius on a flat surface until battery reaches 50% dod. My 144
> V electric Nissan truck has about 55 Rudman (Roden, Merz, Whatever), while
> my 120 V S-10 currently has only 46 Rudman (...). Since I am about to
> upgrade the S-10 to 144 Volts, it will be interesting to see if I am able
> to reach those 55 (..) with the S-10 as well.
>
> Your input is appreciated.
>
> Michaela Merz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 9" ADC in my Metro. It's right up against the side of the engine
bay, though (bolted to it).
Ed Koffeman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 3:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Festiva or Metro
>
> If you were converting a "small car" today, would you rather used a late
> model Ford Festiva or Geo Metro. I looked at both cars earlier today and
> I
> believe the Festiva to be a superior conversion candidate. But, I am
> interested in
> what others have to say, and why other people aren't choosing the Festiva.
>
> In my opinion, advantages of the Festiva:
> There is at least 2.75" more length to fit a motor which opens up a lot
> more
> options than the 8" ADC.
> - You could even easily fit a Warp 9" for some serious
> performance.
> Battery mounting appears to be easier, especially if you take out the rear
> seat, which is very easy
> Currently, you may be able to get a donor car pretty inexpensively
>
>
> In my opinion, disadvantages of the Festiva:
> No off the shelf kit, as far as I know
> Few examples to work from
> Parts availability - 5 years from now - is questionable
> The cars are generally older and more difficult to find in low mileage
> Stock brakes seem a little small - from what I could tell from the
> disassembled car
>
> I would like to know what others think, and why they decided to go with
> the
> Metro rather than the Festiva. I think the Festiva with the 9" motor and
> 14 x
> 12 V AGM batteries and a 1k Zilla controller locked in 2nd gear would make
> a
> great car. I think better than a comparable Metro which would be limited
> to a
> 8" ADC and 12 x 12 V batteries (I've heard space issues). Anyone need to
> correct me?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An interesting article on a vehicle call ed the WrightElectric:
http://www.energynext.org/mainframeset/html/01news/002_Infineon/InfineonRace
.html
I am a somewhat disappointed. What he claims to be "his" car is an Ariel
Atom stuffed with an AC Propulsion electric motor - he just did a
conversion. The Ariel Atom is basically a 1000lb race car - barely street
legal in the UK. In its gas form it has a Honda VTEC engine and can blow the
doors off most any car designed for the street. Sounds like the TZero
updated.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Honda EV came to me with an 84v pack and a Curtis 1221B-7401
controller, that I can not find the specs for. I would like to add
another battery uping the voltage to 96v but am not sure if the
controller can take it. I have been out to the Curtis website but I
think my controller is older than anything they have online. They list
the 1221B models as maxing out at 80v with only the 1209 listed as 72-120v.
my bottome line question is can this controller handle 96 volts or
should I stay at 84?
TIA,
dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor:
> The factors you are talking about even easily measurable for newbies
> are all "individual" and different, so direct comparison of
> EVs makes little sense - so many factors affect the range.
I beg to differ ;) Because all EVs are so different, we *need* some units
that make all those different flavours comparable. Let me give you an
example: The usual way of comparing ICE cars is (in the US) mpg. Nobody
asks how big the fuel tank might be, because the next gas station is
usually (still) around the corner. But, since our 'fuel' tanks are very
different (and *way* smaller). our definition should include the available
fuel.
> How can you put in formula driving habits which affect
> the range of otherwise identical cars, batteries battery ages,
> terrains, cargo weights, and bunch of other parameters impossible
> to have identical? All those can in theory be formalized in
> a formula with a bunch of fudge factors, but I'm afraid it
> won't be really that useful.
Again, my suggested formular takes all that into account. My suggestion
was to include a defined speed, outside temp, road factor (flat, black
top). The kind of batteries in use and their age will be reflected in the
DOD. I am not talking about maximum achievable distances, but the range as
it is at this moment. I understand that wrong gears while driving,
hurricane force winds blowing right on the nose and other woes might not
make the value precise. But mpg is not precise either. All I am saying is,
that we would have a formula that would give us 'one' comparable value.
If I want to compare the range of one EV to another, if I want to buy an
EV or maybe want to copy a concept, I doesn't help if I am being told,
that the maximum range is this or that. What speed? What battery? How old
are they? Is that a theoretical or experienced value? As it is, my truck
can go 40 Miles or 60 Miles, that is, if its warm with a tail wind at 30
Mph, but only
if I take the charger out (safe the weight) and go on a diet for a week or
two. Now that is scientific - but only if we use the science of medieval
times.
Happ New Year, Victor and to all of you.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do like the looks of that design, but it's quite old; plans have
been sold for many years but not many have been built. It's
labor-intensive.
I remember some molds were sold on ebay a year or two ago for one of
Riley's designs, maybe this one. So maybe somebody wants to start
production of the bodies.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Er, actually some molds seem to be on ebay right now. Maybe the last
buyer is now re-selling them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Doran-EV-electric-vehicle-MOLDS-for-kit-car-or-replica_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQitemZ4599643581QQrdZ1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Idea for micro fail-safe
What if the power to the gate and micro was removed every time throttle was
let up; when throttle was depressed then micro boots, clears, some self check
to make sure it was running, check output pin buy sending it to another pin,
ect . Then power to gate and/or contractor is set. Idid something similar to
this using a pic micro. was tricky getting voltage ramp just right for all
conditions, but did finally work
boot time was less then 20ms if I remember, so time between throttle switch
on and voltage from throttle pot would need to be timed (or slowed down)
If a crash did occur then just letting off the throttle would stop it.
(unplugged....)
Computer is reset every time throttle is depressed.
Just look for a simple way to make my homemade controller safer
Plus this would be mostly software changers and some relays
What do ya think?
btw I wanted to build my own so in the future i could fix it myself, have
spare parts ready
not have to wait for repair...
I think the micro can beat my foot
Thanks. Hap
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:01 PM -0700 on 12/28/05, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
Er, actually some molds seem to be on ebay right now. Maybe the last
buyer is now re-selling them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Doran-EV-electric-vehicle-MOLDS-for-kit-car-or-replica_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQitemZ4599643581QQrdZ1
I think that's a bogus auction. I have the "Plans" for the Doran. It
wasn't made from molds. It's made from shaped foam covered with
fiberglass to make a composite body. I think one of the reasons only
a couple of Dorans have been made is that the plans really aren't.
They are just guidelines or design ideas. The Tri-Magnum and Vortex
plans are much better.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area interested?
(It is reduced from $950 a few days ago)
Electric Vehicle - $650
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reply to: see below
Date: 2005-12-24, 11:37PM PST
1983 Grumman Olson Electric Vehicle: looks similar to small Post Office
jeep, does 50-60 mph, needs batteries and windshield replaced. $650
obo-trade. 1-925-727-9991
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IIRC
Pic is limited register, small instruction set with an innovative
writeback accumulator that allows for some efficient hand codeing.
mc68HC05 has bigger register and address areas and is more "von
neuman" like, it really lends itself well to a c compiler.
And the most interesting one is the basic stamp. It is a custom PIC
micro controller. kinda a basic "interpreter" + a PIC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/28/05, Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that's a bogus auction. I have the "Plans" for the Doran. It
> wasn't made from molds. It's made from shaped foam covered with
> fiberglass to make a composite body. I think one of the reasons only
Yeah I know. But Gorilla claims to be part of Doran Motor Company
Inc and that Rick Doran developed the car. See bottom of this:
http://www.gorillavehicles.com/GorillaOldNews.htm
So, I imagine he had bigger intentions, and maybe after running into
some of the usual problems that have done in most of the EV companies
so far, decided to just sell plans. I doubt it's a bogus auction, the
molds must really exist, but he doesn't say who made them, when and
why.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually the PIC is quite C-friendly with the PIC18 series' extended
instruction set.
BASIC Stamp is pretty much a marketing joke. There's zero reason to be
running externally stored, interpreted code. The PIC can store all the
code on-part. C is powerful yet quite simple for beginners and there
are very effective compilers out there that are easy to get ahold of.
The BASIC Stamp makes a whole module out of essentially unnecessary
components, costs like 30x what the task should cost, the results are
slower by around 100x, and the language has extremely limited
capabilities. The hardware features of the PIC are made inaccessible or
on most modules they just used the lowest end PICs with no hardware
features.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
IIRC
Pic is limited register, small instruction set with an innovative
writeback accumulator that allows for some efficient hand codeing.
mc68HC05 has bigger register and address areas and is more "von
neuman" like, it really lends itself well to a c compiler.
And the most interesting one is the basic stamp. It is a custom PIC
micro controller. kinda a basic "interpreter" + a PIC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 27, 2005, at 7:23 PM, James Massey wrote:
As an aside, it was interesting to learn a few months ago that the
positive brushes get hotter than the negative brushes (due to the
electron flow)
Yes, that was interesting. The physics is not obvious to me. (Is this
a much more straightforward demonstration of parity violation?) I
found a couple of references that two thirds of the heat in a welding
arc happens on the positive electrode, which is probably why the
positive brush heats up in a motor, but no explanation of why.
Here's another item of interest that I noticed at this year's Woodburn
races.
The Orbitals powering Silver Bullet still had the plastic caps on the
stud terminals, red ones on the positive studs and black ones on the
negative studs. All of the black caps had melted, although all of the
red ones were still factory-fresh.
I asked Roderick Wilde about this and he said that the negative
terminal of a battery always gets hotter than the positive.
I'm really interested in the physics of both of these phenomena.
Starting with: are they the same phenomenon?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
Wow, this has been a very informative e-mail thread. I do have several issues
with the absoluteness of motor controller building that has previously been
covered.
1. It has been stated that hobbyists should not attempt motor controller
building. However, it is OK for an engineer to do this. What is the line
between a hobbyist and an engineer? It should be way more about experience.
But even more than that, it should be about a person's passion and dedication
toward contributing to this field.
2. There have been several e-mails discouraging people developing commercial
motor control products. Lawsuits and safety have been cited as the main
reasons. While it is good to cite these reasons, it is even better to explain
this and then follow by explaining how to avoid these pitfalls. Perhaps
explaining things like Sole Proprietorships, Partnerships, Corporations,
conforming to market standards, IEEE standards, etc. Why do I say this?
because I am interested, as are many people.
3. As far as the microcontroller vs. hardware thing goes, both are subject to
good and bad engineering. Of course a discussion such as this is subject to a
stalemate. I use both hardware failsafes and microcontroller failsafes in my
product. Most of the control system logic is performed by the microcontroller,
but both types of failsafes are there. A little bit of both will acutally have
the advantages of both worlds. The reliability of discrete components; and the
programmibility and low part count associated with a microcontroller system.
4. The best advice I can give on building a motor controller is don't go for
the 192V 1200A project to begin with. Designing and "operating the result" are
way different. Where I am at right now, is a stable, 120V 80A DC PM motor
controller with regen. But before that, I built a 36V 24A DC PM motor
controller with regen. Before that it was without regen. Before that it was
24V 10A. It goes back even more steps than that, but that should do.
5. One other thing to do is don't work alone. It's more fun with company, but
more important than that is a second or even third set of eyes helps prevent
mistakes. That is why our group has not blown up anything. Also working alone
is not good if something blows up (transistor, motor, batteries). One other
person is always present in our group for anything high power related and a
cell phone is always present as well.
VR,
STEVEN ARLINT
University of Portland
Electrical Engineering Student
--
_______________________________________________
Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org
This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox.
Powered by Outblaze
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a bargain! This is the same vehicle as "Gone Postal" Check out History
of the Kurbwatt
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=history_of_the_kurbwatt_electric GP
came with a nine inch GE. They are based on the VW Rabbit and the entire
body and frame are made of aluminum. They weighed 2650 ponds including the
1000 pounds of batteries. There were only 31 made in 1983. This is one rare
vehicle and a part of EV history. I sure hope someone on this list gets it.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: 1983 Grumman Olson EV on SF Craigslist
Anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area interested?
(It is reduced from $950 a few days ago)
Electric Vehicle - $650
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reply to: see below
Date: 2005-12-24, 11:37PM PST
1983 Grumman Olson Electric Vehicle: looks similar to small Post Office
jeep, does 50-60 mph, needs batteries and windshield replaced. $650
obo-trade. 1-925-727-9991
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Idea for micro fail-safe
What if the power to the gate and micro was removed every time throttle was
let up; when throttle was depressed then micro boots, clears, some self check
to make sure it was running, check output pin buy sending it to another pin,
ect . Then power to gate and/or contractor is set. Idid something similar to
this using a pic micro. was tricky getting voltage ramp just right for all
conditions, but did finally work
Hmmm... would simply cutting the connection to the gate when you let up
on the throttle be sufficient? Use an "throttle interlock" connection
from a microswitch that energizes a N.O. relay (maybe solid-state?)
whenever the gas is pressed. Make sure that there is a "dead-zone" on
the throttle (always should be, anyways) so that the controller will not
try to trigger the gate unless the throttle is tipped in a bit. This
gives you a built-in minimum delay (you can only move your foot at a
maximum speed).
btw I wanted to build my own so in the future i could fix it myself, have
spare parts ready
I just want to see if something else besides the seemingly sacred PWM is
a possibility for DC series motors in a traction application. (So, what
kind of controller do you want to use with that series DC motor? We have
PWM, PWM, and... ah, here we have a very advanced PWM)
Guess my "punk rock" youth never really went away. Always have to buck
the status-quo.
OT -> I was one of the early advocates of PHP. It used to be Perl, CCGI,
ASP, maybe ColdFusion or you're just "playing around". Risked my
professional reputation by being the first to use only PHP in a large
corporate B2B website DB application. Now it's just a regular part of
the internet landscape. So I'm quite used to people calling me nuts
(showed them, though). muWahaHaha! :D
not have to wait for repair...
I think the micro can beat my foot
Thanks. Hap
I wish you the best of luck. Perhaps your future frustrations will yield
fruit to some nifty innovations.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
IIRC
Pic is limited register, small instruction set with an innovative
writeback accumulator that allows for some efficient hand codeing.
mc68HC05 has bigger register and address areas and is more "von
neuman" like, it really lends itself well to a c compiler.
And the most interesting one is the basic stamp. It is a custom PIC
micro controller. kinda a basic "interpreter" + a PIC.
Not "+". No custom. Just a bytecode Basic compiler on your PC with a
corresponding bytecode interpreter running on an off-the shelf non-flash
PIC (or SX). The "Basic" code is stored on an external EEPROM. The
interpreter machine code is masked at the factory into ROM instead of
being loading into flash, that's all.
And the PIC is quite decidedly a "Harvard Architecture" micro. I've
heard that was actually the original design intent. Has it's own sets of
advantages (long-word instruction set, faster with all else being equal)
and drawbacks (more complex hardware, touchy code, compiler unfriendly),
but you have to wrap your head around it first if you're used to
traditional "Von Neumann" heavy PC designs. I'd say use what you feel
most comfortable with.
Here is some insight on the differences:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Doran was the first EV I really wanted to own, but it looked way
too difficult to build. However, I collected info about it for a while
in the early '90s and some of it is relevant to this discussion.
On Dec 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
On 12/28/05, Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think that's a bogus auction. I have the "Plans" for the Doran. It
wasn't made from molds. It's made from shaped foam covered with
fiberglass to make a composite body. I think one of the reasons only
Yeah I know. But Gorilla claims to be part of Doran Motor Company
Inc and that Rick Doran developed the car. See bottom of this:
http://www.gorillavehicles.com/GorillaOldNews.htm
So, I imagine he had bigger intentions, and maybe after running into
some of the usual problems that have done in most of the EV companies
so far, decided to just sell plans. I doubt it's a bogus auction, the
molds must really exist, but he doesn't say who made them, when and
why.
Towards the end, Doran Motor Company was creating molds so they could
bang out finished bodies and sell them to the people who didn't want to
go to the trouble of hand-building a fiberglass body.
I have in my filing cabinet a publication called the AV Constructor's
Newsletter from January 1992. It was published by the Doran MC, and
contains an article discussing the development of the molds.
Apparently they had a lot of trouble pulling molds from their prototype
car, but eventually were satisfied with their nine molds ("four for the
hood, five for the body", according to the article). Also, their
neighbors got them evicted because of the smells from the mold-making
process.
Sadly, I don't have a scanner, so sharing this newsletter or the other
materials I have would be somewhat difficult.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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Steve Arlint wrote:
Greetings,
Wow, this has been a very informative e-mail thread. I do have several issues
with the absoluteness of motor controller building that has previously been
covered.
1. It has been stated that hobbyists should not attempt motor controller
building. However, it is OK for an engineer to do this. What is the line
between a hobbyist and an engineer? It should be way more about experience.
But even more than that, it should be about a person's passion and dedication
toward contributing to this field.
2. There have been several e-mails discouraging people developing commercial
motor control products. Lawsuits and safety have been cited as the main
reasons. While it is good to cite these reasons, it is even better to explain
this and then follow by explaining how to avoid these pitfalls. Perhaps
explaining things like Sole Proprietorships, Partnerships, Corporations,
conforming to market standards, IEEE standards, etc. Why do I say this?
because I am interested, as are many people.
3. As far as the microcontroller vs. hardware thing goes, both are subject to
good and bad engineering. Of course a discussion such as this is subject to a
stalemate. I use both hardware failsafes and microcontroller failsafes in my
product. Most of the control system logic is performed by the microcontroller,
but both types of failsafes are there. A little bit of both will acutally have
the advantages of both worlds. The reliability of discrete components; and the
programmibility and low part count associated with a microcontroller system.
4. The best advice I can give on building a motor controller is don't go for the 192V
1200A project to begin with. Designing and "operating the result" are way
different. Where I am at right now, is a stable, 120V 80A DC PM motor controller with
regen. But before that, I built a 36V 24A DC PM motor controller with regen. Before
that it was without regen. Before that it was 24V 10A. It goes back even more steps
than that, but that should do.
5. One other thing to do is don't work alone. It's more fun with company, but
more important than that is a second or even third set of eyes helps prevent
mistakes. That is why our group has not blown up anything. Also working alone
is not good if something blows up (transistor, motor, batteries). One other
person is always present in our group for anything high power related and a
cell phone is always present as well.
VR,
STEVEN ARLINT
University of Portland
Electrical Engineering Student
Might I add:
6: Make sure it is very (very) thoroughly tested before hooking up to
your EV and going for a drive on public roads. We certainly don't need
any "crazy EV tinker"-related injuries or deaths attributed to our
cause. Keep in mind that a car is a deadly weapon, much more dangerous
to others then any handgun, and get all the magic smoke stuff out of the
way while still in the garage.
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Doug Weathers wrote:
I have in my filing cabinet a publication called the AV Constructor's
Newsletter from January 1992. It was published by the Doran MC, and
contains an article discussing the development of the molds.
Apparently they had a lot of trouble pulling molds from their
prototype car, but eventually were satisfied with their nine molds
("four for the hood, five for the body", according to the article).
Also, their neighbors got them evicted because of the smells from the
mold-making process.
Sadly, I don't have a scanner, so sharing this newsletter or the other
materials I have would be somewhat difficult.
Have access to a digital camera? You must know someone with one... just
take a picture a page, leaving some space around each one in the frame.
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Doug Weathers wrote:
On Dec 27, 2005, at 7:23 PM, James Massey wrote:
As an aside, it was interesting to learn a few months ago that the
positive brushes get hotter than the negative brushes (due to the
electron flow)
It was rather due to a different spring tension or
similar down to earth reasons.
Electrons flow theory falls apart if you'd assume than
the holes flow in opposite way in the same "quantities".
They carry the charge just as well.
Why don't they heat up brushes?
If you assume the electrons are tiny physical "balls"
really leaving one conductor and traveling into another,
you're wrong - if true, the mass of the conductor electrons
are traveling into would change, but very numerous experiments
prove that this isn't the case. View electrons as waves
(like light photons) rather than physical matters, and
you will realize heating of brushes is not possible due
to their flow. Mind you, electrons move in a conductor
quite slow - few mm per second. It's the electromagnetic
field moves at the speed of light making them all start
to move practically at once when circuit closes.
I don't want to spark fundamentals of physics on a
quantum level; just saying please tighten hotter brush :-).
Victor
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Hi Doug, and all
At 08:56 PM 28/12/05 -0800, Doug Weathers wrote:
As an aside, it was interesting to learn a few months ago that the
positive brushes get hotter than the negative brushes (due to the
electron flow)
Yes, that was interesting. The physics is not obvious to me. I found a
couple of references that two thirds of the heat in a welding arc happens
on the positive electrode, which is probably why the positive brush heats
up in a motor, but no explanation of why.
Well, this runs on classic electron flow theory. In a plasma arc (wether
welding or the arc occurring under a brush), the electrons [so the theory
goes] flow from negative to positive. As they do so they carry heat energy
to the positive electrode - how this happens I am unsure of, and I don't
suppose anyone can offer more than experimentally demonstrated theory. It
is true that the welding arc in DC TIG welding when the electrode is
negative will carry more amps relative to when the electrode is positive. I
think it was ADC that made the statement of the positive brush always
getting hotter, but I could be wrong.
Here's another item of interest that I noticed at this year's Woodburn races.
The Orbitals powering Silver Bullet still had the plastic caps on the stud
terminals, red ones on the positive studs and black ones on the negative
studs. All of the black caps had melted, although all of the red ones
were still factory-fresh.
Presumably the plastic is a thermoplastic, and that would indicate
temperatures in the order of 100C (212F) Plus on the negative terminal.
I asked Roderick Wilde about this and he said that the negative terminal
of a battery always gets hotter than the positive.
I'm really interested in the physics of both of these phenomena.
Starting with: are they the same phenomenon?
They are probably closely related. In a plasma arc there is electron
"evaporation" from the negative electrode and "condensation" at the
positive (resulting in material transfer in some cases). In a battery the
electron flow under discharge is from the positive plate to the negative
plate, so assuming that electron flow can carry energy, then the negative
plates would accumulate this energy as heat.
It is probably related to those little "propellors" in vacuum flasks that
are black on one face and white on the other, and then spin in sunlight.
Any ideas?
James
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I worked for a company that produced industrial controllers based on PIC,
Motorola 68HC11, and Intel/Atmel 8051 parts. You would be amazed at how
untested/unproven some of these things can be right from the factory - and
one of these was put into the MIR space station!
Here is my 0.25KWH:
SAFETY IS #1
The primary goal is to reduce the possibility of a controller failing "ON"
- which never happens to analog controllers, right? ;-^) It is possible to
design a reasonably safe controller using a standard micro.
1) Use proper RESET circuitry. Detect over/under voltage, adverse
environmental conditions, etc. and shut the uC down if something is wrong.
External RESET hardware is generally better than on-chip circuitry.
2) Use a WDT with an independant oscillator. Newer micros have WDTs with
internal RC oscillators, older ones can use a combined WDT/RESET IC. The
uC should turn off its outputs when reset with a WDT, even if the uC
oscillator fails!
3) Use best programming practices
a) Initialize the WDT ASAP, and only reset it in the main program loop.
b) Set output pins every program loop. If an output is already high, turn
it on again!
c) Verify critical outputs. Tie them to an input pin and make sure they
are switching hi/low.
d) Keep the code as small and simple as possible. It's a lot safer to use
a second micro for non-critical applications (serial communications, data
logging, warning lights, ???) where failure won't have a major safety
impact. I'd rather my undervoltage idiot light stop working than my
controller fail "ON".
4) BE PARANOID. On powerup: Run a checksum on your program ROM, test then
clear all RAM locations, verify critical values stored in non-volatile
memory.
5) Use best hardware design practices
a) Avoid single points of failure.
b) Use proper noise filtering, ground separation, supply voltage
conditioning, etc.
c) Use "intrinsically safe" circuit design where possible.
d) Redundancy. The micro AND keyswitch AND potbox switch must agree to
turn the main contactor ON. Provide additional methods to disable the
FET/IGBT drive circuitry. Use high side switching to prevent a stuck
output from keeping a FET/IGBT "on" constantly.
e) Redundancy. Use properly rated contactors, circuit breakers, fuses, an
inertia switch, and a manual disconnect. If something does go wrong with
the controller these will help limit the damage.
The hardware practices mentioned on the EV Tech list are a good start.
LEE: Regarding "factory test" modes... I have seen similar things, but
nothing that would set output pins. The 68HC11 has internal bootstrap code
that runs when certain conditions are met during power-on. It waits for a
serial BREAK then tries to download code into RAM. Most part testing is
now done with JTAG (IEEE standard for serial boundary scan - can be used
to program and test micros and ASICS, burn on-chip EEPROM, debug software,
etc.)
I once debugged an 8051-based controller that "randomly" corrupted data on
an external EEPROM. When powering down, the uC ignored RTS instructions
(return from subroutine) as the supply voltage dropped. It would walk
through its code in a linear fashion - eventually running code to write to
EEPROM. If the EEPROM read/write code was placed at the top of the memory
map this wouldn't happen, but the proper fix was to use solid reset
circuitry.
Adrian
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Hi Doug and All,
The Doran is a rather cool car with either
ICE or EV powered options. It was an inspiration for me.
Rick owns gorillavehicles.
Rick Doran did build the molds which have
been bought and sold many times for about $10k I hear , what
they were offered to me for and would possibly be a good way
for someone to get into building EV's thoiugh inspection of
the molds, design should be done first. But it's one of the
few 3wheelers correctly design CG wise and should be a great
handling EV, putting many sportscars to shame.
It uses a Subaru front subframe, ect which
make a lot of it drop in place including trans, steering.
brakes, suspension.
I was even interested until I found out
the price which while not bad if in good shape, I could
design, build my own exactly as I wanted for that price.
Michael is correct about building a one
off fiberglass on shape foam body as very labor intensive
and probably why neither the Doran or any of the Riley
designs have ever been finished. Even building molds as
Dougs quotes below hint at isn't easy.
Though Riley has sold over 40,000 plans
sets!!! Sadly they could have easily been designed in bent
flat panel construction and finished in a couple weeks
instead of many times yrs, if at all.
Lets all hope I get some competetion !!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
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From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Competition for Jerry's Freedom EV?
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:55:01 -0800
>The Doran was the first EV I really wanted to own, but it
>looked way too difficult to build. However, I collected
>info about it for a while in the early '90s and some of it
>is relevant to this discussion.
>
>On Dec 28, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote:
>
>> On 12/28/05, Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I think that's a bogus auction. I have the "Plans" for
>>> the Doran. It wasn't made from molds. It's made from
>>> shaped foam covered with fiberglass to make a composite
>>body. I think one of the reasons only
>> Yeah I know. But Gorilla claims to be part of Doran
>> Motor Company Inc and that Rick Doran developed the car.
>>See bottom of this:
>> http://www.gorillavehicles.com/GorillaOldNews.htm
>>
>> So, I imagine he had bigger intentions, and maybe after
>> running into some of the usual problems that have done in
>> most of the EV companies so far, decided to just sell
>> plans. I doubt it's a bogus auction, the molds must
>> really exist, but he doesn't say who made them, when and
>why.
>
>Towards the end, Doran Motor Company was creating molds so
>they could bang out finished bodies and sell them to the
>people who didn't want to go to the trouble of
>hand-building a fiberglass body.
>
>I have in my filing cabinet a publication called the AV
>Constructor's Newsletter from January 1992. It was
>published by the Doran MC, and contains an article
>discussing the development of the molds. Apparently they
>had a lot of trouble pulling molds from their prototype
>car, but eventually were satisfied with their nine molds
>("four for the hood, five for the body", according to the
>article). Also, their neighbors got them evicted because
>of the smells from the mold-making process.
>
>Sadly, I don't have a scanner, so sharing this newsletter
>or the other materials I have would be somewhat difficult.
>
>
>>
>>
>--
>Doug Weathers
>Bend, OR, USA
>http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
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