EV Digest 5036
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Hybrid motor mounting
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Hybrid motor mounting
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hybrid motor mounting
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV-100
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: old curtis 1221 specs ?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV-100
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Hybrid motor mounting
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Hybrid motor mounting
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller (LONG)
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: old curtis 1221 specs ?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Small car, Big heart
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Electron flows and heating (was: Re: advanced dc motor (temp sensor))
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Range in Rudman, was Re: Units of EV merit. Go Sailing!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Warp 13/11 Cooling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Electron flows and heating (was: Re: advanced dc motor
(temp sensor))
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV-100
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) hydrogen
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) hydrogen-electric gator
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Festiva or Metro
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Electron flows and heating
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller [original post + OT]Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller (LONG)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. The motor will NOT be mounted to the half shafts. It will be mounted
offset to the right side over the pumpkin. The chain cog will be bolted
between the existing driveshaft from the gas engine/transmission and the
pumpkin. It should be seemless to the gas engine and will require only a
modest cutout of the tunnel to facilitate the chain.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
On 28 Dec 2005 at 14:34, James Massey wrote:
> if you are intending mounting off the axle assembly
> you will have a challenge to mount it in such a way as the mass of the
motor
> doesn't rip itself off the axle with the bumps on the road.
I take it when you say "mounting off the axle assembly" you really mean
"mounting ON the axle assembly"? (I was born in the US, but I seem to have
trouble understanding contemporary English usage at times. ;-)
It was done so in the Citicars and Comuta-cars: a GE motor bolted right to a
live axle. The motor only weighed 65 lb, fairly light by road EV standards,
but I think that the extra unsprung weight was one factor in the car's
abysmal handling qualities.
The constant movement also put additional stress on the connections to the
motor. I had more than one on-road failure with my C-car when a lug broke
off.
While your motor could probably be mounted to the axle in a reliable manner,
I'm not so sure the handling effects would be as easy to deal with.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The reason I can't mount the motor to the tailshaft of the transmission is
because that location is directly below the front seats. If there was a
chain failure or something like that it would be right next to me. Bad
Mojo. Putting it over the rear pumpkin also helps in the weight balance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Grasser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
If you want to connect to the drive shaft, instead of on the axle, why not
at the tailshaft of the transmission? Better yet get a transmission case
meant for four wheel drive and use the transfer case as a mounting point for
the electric motor?
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
> On 28 Dec 2005 at 14:34, James Massey wrote:
>
>> if you are intending mounting off the axle assembly
>> you will have a challenge to mount it in such a way as the mass of the
>> motor
>> doesn't rip itself off the axle with the bumps on the road.
>
> I take it when you say "mounting off the axle assembly" you really mean
> "mounting ON the axle assembly"? (I was born in the US, but I seem to
> have
> trouble understanding contemporary English usage at times. ;-)
>
> It was done so in the Citicars and Comuta-cars: a GE motor bolted right to
> a
> live axle. The motor only weighed 65 lb, fairly light by road EV
> standards,
> but I think that the extra unsprung weight was one factor in the car's
> abysmal handling qualities.
>
> The constant movement also put additional stress on the connections to the
> motor. I had more than one on-road failure with my C-car when a lug broke
> off.
>
> While your motor could probably be mounted to the axle in a reliable
> manner,
> I'm not so sure the handling effects would be as easy to deal with.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
The reason I can't mount the motor to the tailshaft of the transmission is
because that location is directly below the front seats. If there was a
chain failure or something like that it would be right next to me. Bad
Mojo. Putting it over the rear pumpkin also helps in the weight balance.
But the rear end of the driveshaft moves up and down with the
suspension, attaching to it means you will either need to mount your
motor to the driveshaft so it moves with that system, or come up with
some way to keep the chain in tension as the driveshaft sprocket moves.
Difficult...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have an EV-100 SCR 24-84V control (cheap so I don't have to build one) I'm
testing and it doesn't respond like a normal Fet control on low load, It bangs
full on with a light bulb or small pm motor test load. Has anyone tested these
and do they bang full on with a light load?
Next step tonight is to try on a golf cart before I put it in a real vehicle
since I don't want to go through the wall and hit the solar panels, drop off a
cliff on the other side of the garage & into the lake.
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
your controller can take up to 120V, you have to modifiy the voltage divider
circuit at input which lock nominal input voltage.
thanks to Otmlar and others EV list'ers, you have schematics here:
http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/curtisschematic.pdf
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:48 AM
Subject: old curtis 1221 specs ?
> My Honda EV came to me with an 84v pack and a Curtis 1221B-7401
> controller, that I can not find the specs for. I would like to add
> another battery uping the voltage to 96v but am not sure if the
> controller can take it. I have been out to the Curtis website but I
> think my controller is older than anything they have online. They list
> the 1221B models as maxing out at 80v with only the 1209 listed as
72-120v.
>
> my bottome line question is can this controller handle 96 volts or
> should I stay at 84?
>
> TIA,
> dave
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be funny to see but not so fun if you were riding on there.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV-100
Hi,
I have an EV-100 SCR 24-84V control (cheap so I don't have to build one) I'm
testing and it doesn't respond like a normal Fet control on low load, It
bangs full on with a light bulb or small pm motor test load. Has anyone
tested these and do they bang full on with a light load?
Next step tonight is to try on a golf cart before I put it in a real vehicle
since I don't want to go through the wall and hit the solar panels, drop off
a cliff on the other side of the garage & into the lake.
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. It is an independent rear suspension so the center pumpkin is bolted
to the frame of the car. The electric motor will be bolted directly above
the pumpkin.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
>The reason I can't mount the motor to the tailshaft of the transmission is
>because that location is directly below the front seats. If there was a
>chain failure or something like that it would be right next to me. Bad
>Mojo. Putting it over the rear pumpkin also helps in the weight balance.
>
>
But the rear end of the driveshaft moves up and down with the
suspension, attaching to it means you will either need to mount your
motor to the driveshaft so it moves with that system, or come up with
some way to keep the chain in tension as the driveshaft sprocket moves.
Difficult...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Difficult? Just google "chain tensioner", lots of options.
Here is an interesting find. I am skeptical how well it will work or if it
is applicable for the application at hand:
http://www.renold.com/Renold/web/site/Products/TransmissionChainSprockets/Ro
ll_Ring.asp?MenuLinkID=614&MenuID=39
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: December 29, 2005 5:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
>The reason I can't mount the motor to the tailshaft of the transmission
>is because that location is directly below the front seats. If there
>was a chain failure or something like that it would be right next to
>me. Bad Mojo. Putting it over the rear pumpkin also helps in the weight
balance.
>
>
But the rear end of the driveshaft moves up and down with the suspension,
attaching to it means you will either need to mount your motor to the
driveshaft so it moves with that system, or come up with some way to keep
the chain in tension as the driveshaft sprocket moves.
Difficult...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That happened on my s**y -Car too many moons ago, a lug popped off arcing
and setting the seat & wire harness on fire, thick black plastic-seat smoke
and *poof* the interior was in flames, I rolled out while it was still
moving & then the fire department & ambulance came. A guy with a big ax
from the fire department was going to chop it up but I talked him out of it.
A couple rednecks stopped by with marshmellows to roast and told me to get a
"real car". A guy stopped by with a hand-held fire extinguisher and put it
out. Now I always carry a fire extinguisher in my EV. It took me 6 months
to resurect the vehicle from the ashes replacing the wire harness &
interrior.
Mark in Roanoke, VA
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid motor mounting
> On 28 Dec 2005 at 14:34, James Massey wrote:
>
> > if you are intending mounting off the axle assembly
> > you will have a challenge to mount it in such a way as the mass of the
motor
> > doesn't rip itself off the axle with the bumps on the road.
>
> I take it when you say "mounting off the axle assembly" you really mean
> "mounting ON the axle assembly"? (I was born in the US, but I seem to
have
> trouble understanding contemporary English usage at times. ;-)
>
> It was done so in the Citicars and Comuta-cars: a GE motor bolted right to
a
> live axle. The motor only weighed 65 lb, fairly light by road EV
standards,
> but I think that the extra unsprung weight was one factor in the car's
> abysmal handling qualities.
>
> The constant movement also put additional stress on the connections to the
> motor. I had more than one on-road failure with my C-car when a lug broke
> off.
>
> While your motor could probably be mounted to the axle in a reliable
manner,
> I'm not so sure the handling effects would be as easy to deal with.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isnt that what the Yearly DARWIN award is for? Those people who choose to
go out and do things without thinking them through?
-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Peters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller (LONG)
Steve Arlint wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Wow, this has been a very informative e-mail thread. I do have several
issues with the absoluteness of motor controller building that has
previously been covered.
>
> 1. It has been stated that hobbyists should not attempt motor controller
building. However, it is OK for an engineer to do this. What is the line
between a hobbyist and an engineer? It should be way more about experience.
But even more than that, it should be about a person's passion and
dedication toward contributing to this field.
>
> 2. There have been several e-mails discouraging people developing
commercial motor control products. Lawsuits and safety have been cited as
the main reasons. While it is good to cite these reasons, it is even better
to explain this and then follow by explaining how to avoid these pitfalls.
Perhaps explaining things like Sole Proprietorships, Partnerships,
Corporations, conforming to market standards, IEEE standards, etc. Why do I
say this? because I am interested, as are many people.
>
> 3. As far as the microcontroller vs. hardware thing goes, both are
subject to good and bad engineering. Of course a discussion such as this is
subject to a stalemate. I use both hardware failsafes and microcontroller
failsafes in my product. Most of the control system logic is performed by
the microcontroller, but both types of failsafes are there. A little bit of
both will acutally have the advantages of both worlds. The reliability of
discrete components; and the programmibility and low part count associated
with a microcontroller system.
>
> 4. The best advice I can give on building a motor controller is don't go
for the 192V 1200A project to begin with. Designing and "operating the
result" are way different. Where I am at right now, is a stable, 120V 80A
DC PM motor controller with regen. But before that, I built a 36V 24A DC PM
motor controller with regen. Before that it was without regen. Before that
it was 24V 10A. It goes back even more steps than that, but that should do.
>
> 5. One other thing to do is don't work alone. It's more fun with
company, but more important than that is a second or even third set of eyes
helps prevent mistakes. That is why our group has not blown up anything.
Also working alone is not good if something blows up (transistor, motor,
batteries). One other person is always present in our group for anything
high power related and a cell phone is always present as well.
>
> VR,
> STEVEN ARLINT
> University of Portland
> Electrical Engineering Student
>
>
Might I add:
6: Make sure it is very (very) thoroughly tested before hooking up to
your EV and going for a drive on public roads. We certainly don't need
any "crazy EV tinker"-related injuries or deaths attributed to our
cause. Keep in mind that a car is a deadly weapon, much more dangerous
to others then any handgun, and get all the magic smoke stuff out of the
way while still in the garage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My apologizes: Otmar
:^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: old curtis 1221 specs ?
> your controller can take up to 120V, you have to modifiy the voltage
divider
> circuit at input which lock nominal input voltage.
>
> thanks to Otmlar and others EV list'ers, you have schematics here:
> http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/curtisschematic.pdf
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 4:48 AM
> Subject: old curtis 1221 specs ?
>
>
> > My Honda EV came to me with an 84v pack and a Curtis 1221B-7401
> > controller, that I can not find the specs for. I would like to add
> > another battery uping the voltage to 96v but am not sure if the
> > controller can take it. I have been out to the Curtis website but I
> > think my controller is older than anything they have online. They list
> > the 1221B models as maxing out at 80v with only the 1209 listed as
> 72-120v.
> >
> > my bottome line question is can this controller handle 96 volts or
> > should I stay at 84?
> >
> > TIA,
> > dave
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had wondered if many batteries would fit in one of those. I parked next
to one yesterday in my 240sx and the MR2 was a full 2 feet shorter than my
car. I guess if you went deep into the trunk and stacked the batteries you
could fit more of them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 12:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Small car, Big heart
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
>A toyota MR2 would be a fun car for sure but you will have a hard time with
>battery location. The car is tiny.
>
>
>
The MR2 mk1 (1985-1989 in the US) and mk2 (91-97) were both excellent
conversions. Only the convertible mk3 spyder is too small.
The MR2 is about the same length as most midsized passenger cars, and
retains decent space up front and in the rear trunk. The non-passenger
space is pretty large, since it is a two seater with the large engine
bay located where the rear seat would be on a 4 door. You can fit about
5 batteries in the front trunk. Another 3-4 in the center tunnel
between the seats (where they really enhance handling, but are difficult
to maintain). At least 6 fit in the engine bay, and another 5 or so can
fit under the floor in the rearmost trunk. Several MR2 conversions have
placed 20 Optima YTs in an MR2. My 1987 MR2 has 15 Optima Group 31
batteries in the front trunk, engine bay and rear trunk.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Makes sense to me...
Think of it this way...
You step out your front door, nice and cool. Then go for a brisk jog around the
block, then come back into the house through the back door. You entered the
block cool through the front door, then exited the block hot through the back
door. Did some work in between.
The electron leaves the negative brush, cool, and enters the motor. It does
some work, then exits the motor, hot, via the positive brush. Same thing right??
If you think I'm serious, well.....don't.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 11:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Electron flows and heating (was: Re: advanced dc motor (temp
sensor))
On Dec 27, 2005, at 7:23 PM, James Massey wrote:
> As an aside, it was interesting to learn a few months ago that the
> positive brushes get hotter than the negative brushes (due to the
> electron flow)
Yes, that was interesting. The physics is not obvious to me. (Is this a
much more straightforward demonstration of parity violation?) I found a
couple of references that two thirds of the heat in a welding arc happens on
the positive electrode, which is probably why the positive brush heats up in
a motor, but no explanation of why.
Here's another item of interest that I noticed at this year's Woodburn
races.
The Orbitals powering Silver Bullet still had the plastic caps on the stud
terminals, red ones on the positive studs and black ones on the negative
studs. All of the black caps had melted, although all of the red ones were
still factory-fresh.
I asked Roderick Wilde about this and he said that the negative terminal of
a battery always gets hotter than the positive.
I'm really interested in the physics of both of these phenomena.
Starting with: are they the same phenomenon?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Range in Rudman, was Re: Units of EV merit
> Michaela,
> Hi All:
Snip a bit
Thank you Victor! Good way to put it. Often I use the anology of
sailboat racing, or one design boats (They are ALL the same) A Sunfish is a
great entry level racing sailboat. But how FAST and far in a set amount of
time is directly related to how good a driver(sailor) ya are. I don't think
sailboats are marketed with a how fast or sailing range in a day. Some go
like hell! As Jerry Dycus will tell you.
Driving a electric car is a lot like sailing, having to "make do" with a
fixed power source, and learning WHY you can't sail upwind directly. The
mind frame is similar, you develop a skill at it, and learn to be happy. If
you can't deal with that go buy a Ford with an automatic tranny, or better
yet, a Prius, and live happily everafter.Most people on the water can't be
bothered and buy a "Fuelish Pleasure" power boat, and annoy the hell out of
the rest of us out there. Sigh!
I mentioned the above because giving somebody a EV ride years ago sed"
Gees! This is like sailing!"Meaning the EV silent glide thing we all enjoy.
My two fathoms worth
Bob
>> Energy can be precisely measured but hardly can be accurately
> predicted for new user/conversion. As I said and you probably
> experienced, consumption greatly depends on the driver's skill
> to drive an EV - something you can't really formalize in numbers.
>
> My 2mm.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Zilla/Warp 13 or 11... The compartment where the motor will be
> installed is nearly enclosed. I can have approx 250CFM of electric
> ventilation for the motor and (Li-poly) batteries through a 4"
> diameter opening. Will this be adequate? How does one go about
> calculating the cooling requirements for something like this?
First, you estimate the amount of heat you will be producing on average.
You can assume the motor is 80% efficient; so if it takes 10kw to push
the car down the road, it will be generating 2kw of waste heat. The
Zilla will be more like 97% efficient, so it produces 0.3kw of heat. I
don't know how efficient the batteries are, but you're probably safe if
you assume 90%; so they produce another 1kw. So the total heat
production is 2+0.3+1 = 3.3kw.
Next, look at how many CFM of air you will be using to remove this heat.
You said 250cfm, so let's try that. The equation for air is
delta-T = 1.76 x Q / V
where delta-T is the increase in air temperature in degrees C, Q is the
amount of heat in watts, and V is the volume of the airflow in cfm. For
250 cfm and 3300 watts,
delta-T = 1.76 x 3300w / 250cfm = 23 deg.C. Thus with this airflow, the
exhaust air will be 23 deg.F hotter than the intake air. This is pretty
reasonable, so to a first approximation it will work. In fact, the
exhaust air won't be quite that warm, because there are other ways for
some of the heat to escape (conduction, convection, thermal mass of the
the items, etc.)
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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At 08:34 AM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
Makes sense to me...
Think of it this way...
You step out your front door, nice and cool. Then go for a brisk jog
around the block, then come back into the house through the back door. You
entered the block cool through the front door, then exited the block hot
through the back door. Did some work in between.
The electron leaves the negative brush, cool, and enters the motor. It
does some work, then exits the motor, hot, via the positive brush. Same
thing right??
If you think I'm serious, well.....don't.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Electrons have mass, 9.11 × 10-31 kg and so I have to think they have some
ability to carry heat. I could not find a specific heat number but I did
find an article http://www.cerncourier.com/main/article/42/5/14 about using
a beam of electrons to cool an antiproton beam. So electrons coming out of
the armature should be hotter then electrons going into the armature and
would cause the positive brush to run hotter then the negative brush. Just
like the input and output fittings for a liquid cooled speed control, the
output fitting will be hotter then the input.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
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Hello to Mark and All,
Mark Hanson wrote:
Hi,
I have an EV-100 SCR 24-84V control (cheap so I don't have to build one) I'm testing and it doesn't respond like a normal Fet control on low load, It bangs full on with a light bulb or small pm motor test load. Has anyone tested these and do they bang full on with a light load?
First, do you have contactors connected to this controller? If the
answer is yes, do you have a 1A bypass contactor included as part of the
contactor set? If you aren't familiar with this, it's a contactor that
when the controller card is properly setup and after the controller sees
full throttle and current is at certain levels, shorts out Rec. 1 and
connects the motor directly to the battery. If the answer is yes, check
to see if its contacts are stuck (welded) together. This would cause
your described condition.
Second, it's possible that the controller's large, brick-shaped SCR, Rec
1, is shorted. This would also do exactly what you are describing. It's
very easy to test the device without taking it out of the controller.
Disconnect the small white wire gate lead (small tab down low on the
right side of the device), then unbolt the braided lead of Rec 3
(flyback diode) from the cathode of Rec 1 (left side 13mm bolt and also
the motor positive connection point). With no connection now at Rec 1's
cathode, you can use a 12V battery and a car light bulb, either a backup
light or headlight works well. Connect the negative battery to one
terminal of the bulb, and the positive battery to the anode of Rec 1
(this is the other 13mm bolt that wasn't connected to Rec 1's braided
lead and is on the right side of Rec 1). Connect the cathode to the
other terminal of the bulb....it should 'not' light up. If it does, you
have a shorted Rec 1. If you find you indeed, have a shorted Rec 1,
before you replace it, make sure to also test Rec 3 diode to see if it
failed and shorted out Rec 1. If the bulb doesn't light up, then while
you still have it connected, use a lead to momentarily connect the gate
to the cathode (battery positive)...the bulb should light up and stay
lit up even when you disconnect the gate lead. If this all goes as
planned, your Rec 1 is probably good.
The EV-100 requires the low impedance windings of a fairly large DC
motor in order to operate. It's normal for it to not operate with just a
light bulb and or a very small PM motor, but having the bulb fully light
or the small motor run at full speed, is not normal.
The first order of business in the way the circuit operates is as follows:
Step 1, is for Rec 2 to fire, connecting the capacitor to battery
negative 'through' the windings of the motor being controlled, charging
it up to battery potential. Step 2, Rec 1 fires and drives the motor.
Step 3, Rec 5 fires and pulls battery positive through Rec 1 (while it's
still on and driving the motor), essentially discharging the cap.
through a choke...then as the cap. discharges to zero and Rec 5
automatically turns off, the back emf from the reactor choke jams the
cap with high voltage at around 150V or so. Step 4, Rec 2 is fired as it
dumps the cap's high voltage across Rec 1, turning it off. All of this
can't happen, if the controller doesn't have a motor's low impedance
windings connected to Rec 1's cathode.
Other things to consider in order for the EV-100 to operate...are all
the connection correct at TB11? TB11 is the six screw terminal input
connector near the middle at the top of the card. You have to have the
pot connected to terminal 1 (the other pot lead goes to battery
negative), and battery positive to terminals 2, 3 & 4, then, even if you
are not using forward and reverse contactors, there needs to be battery
positive sent to TB11 terminal 5 (forward), or battery positive sent to
TB11 terminal 6 (reverse), only one direction at a time, or it won't
operate. You also have to make sure you sequence the voltages at TB11
correctly, or the controller will also not operate...example, you cannot
first give it a direction command then give it power at 2, 3 & 4...it
will shut down, because it thinks the forklift operator has fallen off
the seat or stepped off a deadman pedal (stand-up rider type) or that a
brake switch came on. Also, unlike more conventional electric car mosfet
controllers who use zero ohms as no throttle and 5 k ohms as full
throttle, the EV-100 SCR panel does the opposite, seeing 5 k ohms as no
throttle and zero ohms as full throttle. At zero throttle, there should
be very close to zero volts at TB11, terminal 1, and at full throttle
there should be 3+ volts.
Lots of stuff to consider, but I hope this info helps.
Next step tonight is to try on a golf cart before I put it in a real vehicle since
I don't want to go through the wall and hit the solar panels, drop off a cliff on
the other side of the garage & into the lake.
Thanks, Mark
Drop me an email if you continue to have problems. There are very simple
tests you can do to see if you indeed, have a controller problem. If you
do have a component that is bad, they are relatively cheap, readily
available, and super easy to install.
Are you planning on hooking up a 1A bypass? If not, you should....it's
full throttle fun!
See Ya....John Wayland
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http://www.euronext.com/news/companypressrelease/0,5772,1700631_11894_718583260,00.html
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http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2005/11/24-hyundai-greenspeed-gator/hyundai-greenspeed-gator.php
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Ed-
Did your Metro originally have the 3-cyl engine or the 4-cyl engine?
What year is it?
thanks,
Andrew
Ed Koffeman wrote:
I have a 9" ADC in my Metro. It's right up against the side of the engine
bay, though (bolted to it).
Ed Koffeman
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 3:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Festiva or Metro
If you were converting a "small car" today, would you rather used a late
model Ford Festiva or Geo Metro. I looked at both cars earlier today and
I
believe the Festiva to be a superior conversion candidate. But, I am
interested in
what others have to say, and why other people aren't choosing the Festiva.
In my opinion, advantages of the Festiva:
There is at least 2.75" more length to fit a motor which opens up a lot
more
options than the 8" ADC.
- You could even easily fit a Warp 9" for some serious
performance.
Battery mounting appears to be easier, especially if you take out the rear
seat, which is very easy
Currently, you may be able to get a donor car pretty inexpensively
In my opinion, disadvantages of the Festiva:
No off the shelf kit, as far as I know
Few examples to work from
Parts availability - 5 years from now - is questionable
The cars are generally older and more difficult to find in low mileage
Stock brakes seem a little small - from what I could tell from the
disassembled car
I would like to know what others think, and why they decided to go with
the
Metro rather than the Festiva. I think the Festiva with the 9" motor and
14 x
12 V AGM batteries and a 1k Zilla controller locked in 2nd gear would make
a
great car. I think better than a comparable Metro which would be limited
to a
8" ADC and 12 x 12 V batteries (I've heard space issues). Anyone need to
correct me?
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> ...positive brushes get hotter than the negative brushes (due to the
> electron flow)... welder electrodes... battery terminals...
There are lots of things going on at once here.
First, consider electrons flowing in a vacuum. The electrons act like a gas.
A vacuum tube is the most common example of this. You need to apply
heat to the cathode (negative) to get it to work; this "boils off" electrons.
The electrons are attracted to the plate (positive). The electrons pick up
kinetic energy as they "fall" from negative to positive, and slam into the
plate with considerable force. The plate thus gets hotter, and the cathode
gets colder.
Now add some gas. The electrons no longer have a clear path from the
negative to the positive electrode; they bump into all those gas molecules
along the way. These collisions ionize the gas, producing in both positive
and negative ions. The negative ions travel from negative to positive, just
like the electrons. Like the electrons, they cause the positive electrode to
get hotter. But the positive ions move in the reverse direction; from
positive to negative. These ions cause the negative electrode (cathode)
to heat up. This is called "back bombardment"; it was used in gas-filled
vacuum tubes to reduce or eliminate the need for a filament to heat the
cathode.
Now, the gas could just as well be air. This is what you have in an arc
welder. Which electrode gets hotter depends on the relative amounts of
electron flow versus ionic current flow from the ionized air molecules.
A further complication occurs when the material of the electrode itself is
being burned away, and contributing its debris to the arc. The evaporating
metal also carries heat away, just as water is cooled by evaporation. So,
which electrode gets hotter is now affected by which one is being burned
away the most.
This happens in a motor as well. The carbon brush is relatively soft,
and so burns away faster than the copper.
Finally, you have electrochemical effects in a battery. Chemical reactions
are either exothermic (produce heat) or endothermic (consume heat).
Batteries are producing electric current by chemical reactions, which will
heat or cool the plates according to the reaction taking place and the
directio of the current flow (charging or discharging).
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hello to All,
I've submitted the 1/4 mile specs for White Zombie to the following site:
http://www.dragtimes.com/
At this opening page, under the section 'Recent Drag Racing 1/4 Mile
Times', you'll see White Zombie boldly listed as an electric car..it's a
clickable link. Upon clicking the link, you'll see the spec page for
White Zombie. It's down-right funny when you peruse the stats page, as
there are mostly 'none' lists for all the usual stuff they expect you to
have in a drag car....Pistons (none).... Sparkplugs (none)....Camshaft
(none)....Transmission (none)....you get the idea, great fun!
I goofed and sent a very low rez thumbnail off a video clip, as the
feature photo, and it looks tacky. If any list members have a good photo
of WZ they'd like to see there instead, send it to me, and I'll pick my
favorite of what i receive and resend it to the site. You can vote for
the car for it to be a featured car at the opening page, so let's stack
the deck to get an electric car put up as the featured car...that should
get the gasser dude's attention! Matt's terrific twin motor 240SX is
also at this site, so votes for his car would be great, too.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller [original post + OT]
Snip A bit;
Hi All;
If it wasn't for the Art Mattesons and Steve Arlents of the World,
where would we be? Thank God or whatEVer diety you subscribe to for their
spirit!And a buncha other guyz I missed. Art sez it sorta like Tom Edison
did,over 100 years ago, just differant terminology.There IS hope for the
world, now if they could go in to politics, but their ethical standards are
too high<G>!
My two amps worth
Bob
> Like I said before, going into a project thinking it's going to be hard
> is the wrong attitude to take. Certainly one should begin promising not
> to get discouraged, and should also do a lot of research on prior
> designs to help their progress. If you think a project will be easy,
> then you'll make it easy. If you think you'll succeed, and have the
> capability, then you will succeed. Do I do well in school and on
> projects because I'm just so much smarter and better, or am I not any
> smarter but just more tenacious, confident, motivated, and inspired?
>
> - Arthur
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
>
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> 1. It has been stated that hobbyists should not attempt motor controller
> building. However, it is OK for an engineer to do this.
Actually, I believe what most people have been saying is that a hobbiest
should not attempt to build a controller with the sole intention of saving
money.
It's entirely possible for hobbiest to build controllers, and many of them
have (succesffuly too). However, very few have managed it for less money
than buying a new controller.
FWIW I know Otmar and I believe Rich (two of the finest motor controller
builders around) started out as Hobbiests.
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From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
> Hello to All,
>
> I've submitted the 1/4 mile specs for White Zombie to the following site:
>
> http://www.dragtimes.com/
>
> At this opening page, under the section 'Recent Drag Racing 1/4 Mile
> Times', you'll see White Zombie boldly listed as an electric car..it's a
> clickable link. Upon clicking the link, you'll see the spec page for
> White Zombie. It's down-right funny when you peruse the stats page, as
> there are mostly 'none' lists for all the usual stuff they expect you to
> have in a drag car....Pistons (none).... Sparkplugs (none)....Camshaft
> (none)....Transmission (none)....you get the idea, great fun!
> Hi John;
I voted for ya! Cool sight, thumbed through it, lottsa fun, Rolls
Royces' times as well as Hummers, Iron I didn't think ASYBODY raced. I
coulda beat the Hummer with my Rabbit IF I had a stoughter, less slippery
clutch, and put the T Wrecks controller in<g>!Be faster than the Acela
[EMAIL PROTECTED] in one min. The pix you have is just fine, ya didn't use my
flashover one from Woodburn! I'll chek out Matt's car, too.
Seeya
Bob
> I goofed and sent a very low rez thumbnail off a video clip, as the
> feature photo, and it looks tacky. If any list members have a good photo
> of WZ they'd like to see there instead, send it to me, and I'll pick my
> favorite of what i receive and resend it to the site. You can vote for
> the car for it to be a featured car at the opening page, so let's stack
> the deck to get an electric car put up as the featured car...that should
> get the gasser dude's attention! Matt's terrific twin motor 240SX is
> also at this site, so votes for his car would be great, too.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
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