EV digest 5089

Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:22:05 -0800 

                            EV Digest 5089

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Front wheel drive  (was No Transmission Option)
        by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Electron flow and heating
        by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Schaef Motor Sep_ex vs Series help
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Electron flow and heating
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Front wheel drive  (was No Transmission Option)
        by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Schaef Motor Sep_ex vs Series help
        by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Schaef Motor Sep_ex vs Series help
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Basic LED Question
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) No Transmission Option
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Budget EV - motor mount and coupler
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Flywheel
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Where can I get a high voltage switch? 48+
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Basic LED Question
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: Flywheel
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Basic LED Question
        by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Basic LED Question
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Basic LED Question
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Basic LED Question
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Mk3 Regs
        by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Schaef Motor Sep_ex vs Series help
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Has anyone done a conversion in a front wheel drive without a transaxle? If the 
right hubs were used, one could bolt the half-shafts directly to each end of 
the amature. This does however produce a "locked" diffy situation. Hmm.....drag 
car maybe??
paul
  
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  damon henry wrote:
>> What am I missing?
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Dennis
>> Elsberry, MO
>>
> Reverse, although this can be accomplished with a reversing contactor 
> set. No failsafe mechanical way to disconnect the drivetrain in case of 
> a full on failure. This is not a problem if you have properly rated and 
> installed electrical disconnects.
> 
> damon
> 
Dennis,

If you're missing easy electrical reverse with no extra parts
and peace of mind of never failing full on, you're missing AC drive.

Victor

--
'91 ACRX - something different

  


                
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
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whatever.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Fri, January 13, 2006 2:32 pm, Victor Tikhonov said:
> Amazing. Is this what they teach in universities these days?

Perhaps the more productive approach would be to share the fruits of your
education where your understanding conflicts with his post.

One of the quickest ways to clean out crufty, inaccurate ideas is to voice
them and be corrected by people who have more complete knowledge.  Of
course, reading and studying a topic is always good advice (despite how
bluntly the "RTFM" may sometimes be expressed), but the problem with being
wrong about something is that you don't recognize it until you've been
convinced of a superior idea. It's hard to take proactive action when you
don't know there's a problem.

I've been on this list for a few years, and for the most part I've been
generally reluctant to participate here because I've been afraid of being
wrong. But in reality it's not really being wrong that makes me hesitant
to post -- it's having my ideas ridiculed like this, and then *not
corrected*.

  --chris



>
> Victor
>
> Rhett George wrote:
>>  - Greetings -
>>
>> If this subject has been exhausted as far as you are concerned, please
>> go
>> to the next item.
>>
>> Electrons move from one end of a conductor to the other as the result of
>> an attractive electric field (drift) or as a result of charge density
>> dif-
>> ferences (diffusion).  In the process of moving, the electron acquires a
>> velocity and, with that, kinetic energy.  In a transistor it moves thru
>> the base and base-collector region (BJT) or thru the channel (FET) with
>> little interference.  When it reaches the collector or drain, it must
>> slow
>> down to the velocity of all the other electrons.  The kinetic energy
>> must
>> be given up as heat.  Ordinarily the collector or drain of the
>> transistor
>> is connected tot he metal tab or metal case for best efficiency in
>> getting
>> rid of the heat to the heat sink.
>>
>> In a motor brush made of carbon, clay, and soft copper granules, the
>> path
>> from one end to the other is anything but easy.  The electron bangs into
>> with some kinetic energy in an inelastic collision and gives up some of
>> its energy in the form of heat.  It goes to the next bit of brush where
>> the same thing happens again.  The velocity is never very high.
>> Therefore
>> the kinetic energy to be given up when the electron reaches the
>> commutator
>> is only a bit higher than that given up along the path.
>>
>> That the energy given up along the path is uniform if the path is
>> uniform
>> can be seen by looking at the heated coil of an automotive cigarette
>> lighter.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>                                      Rhett
>>
>>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks Rod, Jim & everyone for your help.  Warfield in Illinois said they
might have a series field and to call back Monday to Craig (the motor guru).
SepEx might be nice though with regen *but* I need that starting torque
oomph on a direct drive setup that I think a series wound motor is better
at.

BTW I found that the 2" by 10" Bendix brakes are off a Chevy or Ford, the
Federated NAPA parts guy didn't know for sure but found the exact match for
brakes and the local bearings company had the wheel bearings so I don't have
to special order from Cushman.  Cushman recommended putting 4 batts behind
the rear axle and 4 on one side of the drive axle and 4 on the otherside up
to the rear of the cab with the motor on a long drive shaft and the motor
under the seat with everything 5" off the ground.  I guy who had the ZEV at
Werres corp in Frederick, Md said it handled really well at the 70/30 weight
ratio.  We'll see.

Thanks, Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Schaef Motor Sep_ex vs Series help


> The critical thing you must do is insure the shunt
> field winding
> never looses power when the EV100 is powering the
> armature, otherwise the EV100 will pretty much see a
> direct short with no field.
> You also want to make sure the field is powered first
> giving 30mS delay before powering the armature.
> If you want higher speeds you'll need something to
> weaken the field.  If you want turbo boost just put a
> resistor in parallel with the field using a contactor.
>  Or you could make it multiple step FW like they do on
> the GE ElecTrac (you have an E15 don't you?)
> If all else fails I have a GE automotive Sepex control
> in a gray metal box.  We sold some of these back in
> 1995-1996 for Automotive conversions.
> Rod
>
> --- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I bought a 36V 15" x 6.7" Schaef motor part# 7600064
> > used on a Hyster pump and was told it was a series
> > wound motor so I bought an EV-100 control with it
> > for use in a 1800lb 72V zev Cushman.  Warfield
> > reworked the motor (replaced bearings/brushes turned
> > comm for $325.  I hooked it up and not much
> > happened.  Turns out the field measured 7MH .9 ohms
> > so it is really a SEPEX motor.  Warfield here in
> > Roanoke, VA said they can't put in series coils so
> > I'm wondering how to control this.  Can I operate
> > the EV100 control directly to the armature and
> > connect the field through a resistor to 72V?  OR
> > just connect the armature & field in parallel and
> > operate that way?
> >
> >   I probably would need to add a failsafe field
> > current detect circuit so if a wire pops off on the
> > field, the control shuts down.  I'm looking for a
> > simple solution as I want to get this up and running
> > as quickly as possible.  Warfield headquarters in
> > ILL said they could rewind the field for a series
> > wound motor if all else fails, but since the Cushman
> > is direct drive, I need the starting torque.
> >
> > Thanks, Mark
> >
> >
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Rhett,

Really amazing. Is this what they teach in universities these days?

Victor

Rhett George wrote:

 - Greetings -

If this subject has been exhausted as far as you are concerned, please go
to the next item.

Electrons move from one end of a conductor to the other as the result of
an attractive electric field (drift) or as a result of charge density dif-
ferences (diffusion).  In the process of moving, the electron acquires a
velocity and, with that, kinetic energy. In a transistor it moves thru the base and base-collector region (BJT) or thru the channel (FET) with little interference. When it reaches the collector or drain, it must slow 
down to the velocity of all the other electrons.  The kinetic energy must
be given up as heat.  Ordinarily the collector or drain of the transistor
is connected tot he metal tab or metal case for best efficiency in getting rid of the heat to the heat sink. 

In a motor brush made of carbon, clay, and soft copper granules, the path
from one end to the other is anything but easy.  The electron bangs into
with some kinetic energy in an inelastic collision and gives up some of its energy in the form of heat. It goes to the next bit of brush where 
the same thing happens again.  The velocity is never very high.  Therefore
the kinetic energy to be given up when the electron reaches the commutator
is only a bit higher than that given up along the path.

That the energy given up along the path is uniform if the path is uniform
can be seen by looking at the heated coil of an automotive cigarette lighter.

Cheers,
                                        Rhett

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Just for information sake, the older Eldorados (Like my 1984) had a separate differential and axel housing from the transaxle...I think 


From deep within our secret soul

do demons dwell and take their toll
----- Original Message ----- From: "paul wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:50 PM
Subject: Front wheel drive (was No Transmission Option)
Has anyone done a conversion in a front wheel drive without a transaxle? If the right hubs were used, one could bolt the half-shafts directly to each end of the amature. This does however produce a "locked" diffy situation. Hmm.....drag car maybe?? 
paul

Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 damon henry wrote:

What am I missing?

Any thoughts?

Dennis
Elsberry, MO


Reverse, although this can be accomplished with a reversing contactor
set. No failsafe mechanical way to disconnect the drivetrain in case of
a full on failure. This is not a problem if you have properly rated and
installed electrical disconnects.

damon


Dennis,

If you're missing easy electrical reverse with no extra parts
and peace of mind of never failing full on, you're missing AC drive.

Victor

--
'91 ACRX - something different





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Mark,
This is exactly what I am trying to accomplish with the GE SX600 controller... 
Mike G.



Hi,

I bought a 36V 15" x 6.7" Schaef motor part# 7600064 used on a Hyster pump and was 
told it was a series wound motor so I bought an EV-100 control with it for use in a 1800lb 
72V zev Cushman.  Warfield reworked the motor (replaced bearings/brushes turned comm for 
$325.  I hooked it up and not much happened.  Turns out the field measured 7MH .9 ohms so it 
is really a SEPEX motor.  Warfield here in Roanoke, VA said they can't put in series coils so 
I'm wondering how to control this.  Can I operate the EV100 control directly to the armature 
and connect the field through a resistor to 72V?  OR just connect the armature & field in 
parallel and operate that way?

 I probably would need to add a failsafe field current detect circuit so if a 
wire pops off on the field, the control shuts down.  I'm looking for a simple 
solution as I want to get this up and running as quickly as possible.  Warfield 
headquarters in ILL said they could rewind the field for a series wound motor 
if all else fails, but since the Cushman is direct drive, I need the starting 
torque.

Thanks, Mark

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 09:14 AM 13/01/06 -0500, Mark wrote:

Hi,
I bought a 36V 15" x 6.7" Schaef motor part# 7600064 used on a Hyster pump <snip>
I'm looking for a simple solution as I want to get this up and running as quickly as possible. Warfield headquarters in ILL said they could rewind the field for a series wound motor if all else fails, but since the Cushman is direct drive, I need the starting torque. 

G'day Mark
Are you mechanically minded & inclined enough to disassemble the motor, then take some photos and put them up somewhere? Be able to look at them and say for sure what the connections are. depending on what the connections are there could be a few alternatives. If there are two parallel fields you may be able to series them up and direct connect to 72V. Or if they are series already you could have the fields rewound to be two 72V circuits, put them in parallel for starting, then switch the fields into series for speed? Your local (AC motor) shop would be able to do a shunt winding rewind.
You may be able to unbolt the field poles, send just the windings to Jim Husted and he rewinds you a set of series windings? 

Lots of possibilities, depending on what's there.

Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 02:53 PM 12/01/06 -0700, Bill Dennis wrote:

> So spill the beans, whatcha plans?

I've been toying with different ideas for TS cell
undervoltage detection.  Lee provided one nice circuit using an LM10, which
would turn on an opto-isolator when any cell went undervoltage.

But also thought it might be nice to see one color LED when a battery was
above around 2.9V, and another color LED when the battery was below around
2.9V.  I know that this wastes some battery power, but when the LEDs were
on, I'd know that all circuits were working.  And a different color "idiot
LED" would be easy to spot when one cell fell low.

So here's a circuit I've been thinking about so far:

+______ ______
       |     |
    68 >     > 100
       >     >
       >     >
Red   _|_    |
1.7V _\_/_   |____________________
LED    |     |                    |
       |     |                    |
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - - -+    |
|      |     |               |    |
|     _|_   |/   H11A817C    |   _|_
|1.2V_\_/_  |   optocoupler  |  _\_/_  2.0V Yellow LED
|LED   |    |\               |    |
|      |     |               |    |
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - - -+    |
       |     |                    |
-__ ___|_____|____________________|


G'day Bill - and all
OK, things I can see. Above 3.x[something] volts you will have enough drive current to light up the red LED with enough current to turn on the optocoupler and short the yellow LED, holding it off. As you fall towards 3.0V, the current through the red LED and optocoupler falls, where the transistor is not being turned hard on, so the yellow LED starts to come on, but the red LED is still on. As the volts fall further, the red LED will fade, and the yellow LED will come up to full brightness. At somewhere below 2.5V the red LED will be fully off.
If this were my choice of design, I'd look for something to switch cleanly and positively on/off or off/on at a settable threshold. With the red LED and opto input referenced to the cell (battery) and the optocouplers' transistor referenced to the vehicle 12V system, leave off the yellow LED, but use a comparator IC such as an LM324 to compare the voltage at the transistor/resistor join to a reference, possibly: 

cell           9V regulated off 12V vehicle
+______       _____________________|+__
       |     |                 |     |
    68 >     >                 >     |
       >     >                 >     |
       >     >                 >     |
Red   _|_    |                 |   |\|
1.7V _\_/_   |-----------------)---| \___
LED    |     |                 |---| /   |
       |     |                 >   |/|   |
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - +    >     |   |
|      |     |            |    >     |  _|_
|     _|_   |/  H11A817C  |    |     | _\_/_
|1.2V_\_/_  |  optocoupler|    >     |   |
|LED   |    |\            |trim><-|  |   >
|      |     |            |pot >  |  |   >
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - +    |__|  |   >
       |     |                 |     |   |
-__ ___|     |_________________|_____|_0volts
This way as the transistor slowly turns off, the voltage rises to the point where the voltage passes the threshold of the comparison, so the output of the comparator changes state. The trim pot allows for adjustment to the threshold level. This also keeps traction voltage away from your instruments (if you brought a pair of wires for each cell up to your dash, you'd be wise to fuse each conductor). Look for the red LEDs through a window or clear-front box on the side of your battery box to check that's on.
I've left off a lot of detail, it's just an idea, one of any number of possibilities. See if this is within your tech level. 

Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
"What am I missing"
    Reverse and series/parallel with a zilla 1K takes $1000 of contactors.

No problem on the front wheel drive,  Direct drive tranny, lock in a
gear and remove all the ones you don't need.

On some, you could mount a plate (square with L shaped hole) so that it
can only be put in 4th and reverse, with all other gears removed Still
no clutch, and you save $300 in contactors.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
jerryd wrote:
> Use 2 box sections to mount the motor and a make a coupler
> with the clutch plate center brings this to about $60.

This could work well for a front-engine, rear-drive vehicle. Having the 
differential mounted separately means the transmission+motor mounting has 
much less torque to handle.

But I'd be concerned about using it with a front-wheel-drive vehicle with a 
combined transaxle. The motor+transaxle mounting system has to handle the 
full wheel torque, which is several times higher. On many vehicles, at least 
one of the mounts to handle this torque is on the ICE engine itself. If you 
put this mount on the electric motor, then your motor-to-transaxle mounting 
has to be strong to handle it, too. A hollow box section isn't very strong.
-- 
Lee A. Hart    814 8th Ave N    Sartell MN 56377    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I am gonna disagree with balancing flywheel and pressure plate as a unit.
 I think you should balance the flywheel by itself,  then balance the
pressure-plate by itself while mounted to the balanced flywheel. (unless
this is what you meant, then, my appolgies) I would do this without the
disks in there. (A special fixture would be required to keep them
centered and the first actuation would change they're position.)

 That way, an out of balance pressure plate doesn't cause you to offset
the flywheel only to have to do it all over again if you change the
clutch in the future.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Ken Trough wrote:
> I've seen heavy duty contactors with diodes across the coils like this
> and I've seen them without. What does the diode accomplish in this
> context? I know a diode is a one-way gate, but what does it do for the
> contactor specifically? How "bad" is it not to use one?

These diodes aren't there for the contactor's benefit; it works fine without 
them. In fact, it drops out faster without the diode. The contacts arc less 
and last longer.

The diode is there to keep whatever is switching the contactor's coil from 
seeing an inductive voltage spike when the coil is turned off. With nothing 
across the coil, the switch sees a voltage spike of 5-10 times the supply 
voltage. A 12v contactor can easily produce a 120v spike! People don't want 
to pay for high voltage switches or transistors for a 12v load; so they put 
the diode across the coil and use a cheaper switch or transistor. The diode 
is cheaper than a high-voltage switch.

For high-voltage coils, like 48v and above, the spike can get so high (480v) 
that it can damage the insulation of the coil itself. In this case, you need 
to do something to at least partially clamp this voltage.

There are many alternatives to nothing or a diode. Basically, you decide how 
high you can allow the voltage to get, and pick parts to limit the inductive 
spike to this value. Common choices (in order of how much they reduce the 
spike) are:

 - nothing (10x voltage spike, fastest turnoff)
 - diode and resistor in series (5x)
 - resistor and capacitor (4x)
 - diode and zener (3x)
 - MOV (2x)
 - diode (no voltage spike, slowest turnoff)
--
Lee A. Hart    814 8th Ave N    Sartell MN 56377    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks, James, for the new circuit and the clear explanation.
The way you describe my original circuit was sort of how I thought it would
work.  The voltages wouldn't be exact, but I'd have the following
possibilities:

1)  Red only on -- all okay
2)  Red on, Yellow dim -- cell starting to get low
3)  Red and Yellow about equal -- Yo, stop driving real soon
4)  Yellow only on -- Dude, do you really enjoy killing batteries?

Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Basic LED Question

At 02:53 PM 12/01/06 -0700, Bill Dennis wrote:
> > So spill the beans, whatcha plans?
>
>I've been toying with different ideas for TS cell
>undervoltage detection.  Lee provided one nice circuit using an LM10, which
>would turn on an opto-isolator when any cell went undervoltage.
>
>But also thought it might be nice to see one color LED when a battery was
>above around 2.9V, and another color LED when the battery was below around
>2.9V.  I know that this wastes some battery power, but when the LEDs were
>on, I'd know that all circuits were working.  And a different color "idiot
>LED" would be easy to spot when one cell fell low.
>
>So here's a circuit I've been thinking about so far:
>
>+______ ______
>        |     |
>     68 >     > 100
>        >     >
>        >     >
>Red   _|_    |
>1.7V _\_/_   |____________________
>LED    |     |                    |
>        |     |                    |
>+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - - -+    |
>|      |     |               |    |
>|     _|_   |/   H11A817C    |   _|_
>|1.2V_\_/_  |   optocoupler  |  _\_/_  2.0V Yellow LED
>|LED   |    |\               |    |
>|      |     |               |    |
>+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - - -+    |
>        |     |                    |
>-__ ___|_____|____________________|

G'day Bill - and all

OK, things I can see. Above 3.x[something] volts you will have enough drive 
current to light up the red LED with enough current to turn on the 
optocoupler and short the yellow LED, holding it off.
As you fall towards 3.0V, the current through the red LED and optocoupler 
falls, where the transistor is not being turned hard on, so the yellow LED 
starts to come on, but the red LED is still on.
As the volts fall further, the red LED will fade, and the yellow LED will 
come up to full brightness. At somewhere below 2.5V the red LED will be 
fully off.

If this were my choice of design, I'd look for something to switch cleanly 
and positively on/off or off/on at a settable threshold. With the red LED 
and opto input referenced to the cell (battery) and the optocouplers' 
transistor referenced to the vehicle 12V system, leave off the yellow LED, 
but use a comparator IC such as an LM324 to compare the voltage at the 
transistor/resistor join to a reference, possibly:

cell           9V regulated off 12V vehicle
+______       _____________________|+__
        |     |                 |     |
     68 >     >                 >     |
        >     >                 >     |
        >     >                 >     |
Red   _|_    |                 |   |\|
1.7V _\_/_   |-----------------)---| \___
LED    |     |                 |---| /   |
        |     |                 >   |/|   |
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - +    >     |   |
|      |     |            |    >     |  _|_
|     _|_   |/  H11A817C  |    |     | _\_/_
|1.2V_\_/_  |  optocoupler|    >     |   |
|LED   |    |\            |trim><-|  |   >
|      |     |            |pot >  |  |   >
+ - - -|- - -|- - - - - - +    |__|  |   >
        |     |                 |     |   |
-__ ___|     |_________________|_____|_0volts

This way as the transistor slowly turns off, the voltage rises to the point 
where the voltage passes the threshold of the comparison, so the output of 
the comparator changes state. The trim pot allows for adjustment to the 
threshold level. This also keeps traction voltage away from your 
instruments (if you brought a pair of wires for each cell up to your dash, 
you'd be wise to fuse each conductor). Look for the red LEDs through a 
window or clear-front box on the side of your battery box to check that's
on.

I've left off a lot of detail, it's just an idea, one of any number of 
possibilities. See if this is within your tech level.

Regards

James

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I am using a 0.5kw pump motor(ND or Nippon Denso) on the Schwinn Stingray. (5" x 8" Maybe 20 to 25 pounds) I finally decided on a 10 2/7ths to one ratio(7 to 72). Damn if my calculations came in within one mile per hour(lucky guess. I thought it'd do 20 (and probably would have at 10 to 1). On a flat the bike almost does 19 mph. UP hills 8 to 10mph. Just perfect to comply with the law. After the first Madien Voyage of 4 miles round trip it was down to a disapointing 24.3vdc. The motor wasn't hot to the touch just warm at the brush end. I'm using a 300 amp AXE controller 24-48vdc. The bike has tepid acceleration but pulls hills about as well as my 1000 watt Vego. The wire going into the motor is 10 gauge but the brushes are massive. The bike poops out just right at 19mph so when crusing at speed I'm sure I not using many amps but I better put a ammeter on it to make sure I'm not over amping on hills. If some of the experts like John who is now working on forklifts or Jim who rebuilds motors for them could tell me what kind of problems I should expect using this motor as stock? Already I have a bad feeling that is isn't very efficient. The motor is heavy & solid but not as powerful as I had expected. I was expecting more off the line torque. Is it possible that this motor could be modified to be a little peppyier off the line? I don't need more rpm's(speed) just more grunt from 0 to speed. It may have been a mistake using the pump motor but it was so big and beefy(and oh so smooth) for it's output I thought it would be long lived and durable. But 4 miles range isn't what I expected. I was thinking more like 15 miles on the flats. I'm using two 33ah DCS-33H Interstate batteries. Any comments apreciated. http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/my_photos Here are some photos. Lawrence Rhodes..... 
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message --- 
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I am gonna disagree with balancing flywheel and pressure 
> plate as a unit.  I think you should balance the flywheel by 
> itself,  then balance the pressure-plate by itself while 
> mounted to the balanced flywheel. (unless this is what you 
> meant, then, my appolgies) I would do this without the disks 
> in there. (A special fixture would be required to keep them 
> centered and the first actuation would change they're position.)
> 
>  That way, an out of balance pressure plate doesn't cause you 
> to offset the flywheel only to have to do it all over again 
> if you change the clutch in the future.

In the case of our typical series DC conversion, our redline tends to be
not significantly different from the ICE we are replacing; i.e. about
6000-6500RPM and it is not normal practice to rebalance a
flywheel/pressure plate assembly or flex plate/torque convertor assembly
when replacing the clutch or torque convertor.  The pressure plates and
torque convertors are already balanced on their own, and in many cases
it appears that the flywheels are also as I have never seen a need to
rebalance a flywheel or flex plate when swapping one on air-cooled VWs
or any North American passenger car/light truck.

Obviously, what one does for a racing (or 10-12k RPM redline AC drive)
vehicle will differ from what one does for a DC street vehicle, however,
I don't really understand why there should be any need to balance these
assemblies to a significantly higher degree than the original vehicle
when building a street EV.   I certainly echo the need to balance the
flywheel if one modifies it in any way, but see anything beyond that as
excessive.

Cheers,

Roger.

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On Jan 13, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:


The voltages wouldn't be exact, but I'd have the following
possibilities:

1)  Red only on -- all okay
I'm sorry, but IMHO red lights on the dashboard shouldn't indicate that everthing's OK. Make it green instead? 


2)  Red on, Yellow dim -- cell starting to get low
3)  Red and Yellow about equal -- Yo, stop driving real soon
4)  Yellow only on -- Dude, do you really enjoy killing batteries?
If you use green and red, you get an orangey/amberish color for the intermediate state. That's just about perfect. Put them under the same indicator lens and smear their light together.
Is there a good way to use a bi-color green/red LED in this circuit? Then the colors mix right in the part, and reduce your part count as well. 




--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>

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--- Begin Message --- 
In my original circuit, it worked because a red LED drops 1.7V and the opto
drops 1.2V, giving the 2.9V breakpoint I was looking for.

I guess if I switched to green for "ok", then the breakpoint would be around
3.2V, which might be okay, since it would make the bottom of the range, when
the 2nd LED only was on, around 2.8V.  I could switch the 2nd LED from
yellow to red.


Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Basic LED Question


On Jan 13, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:

> The voltages wouldn't be exact, but I'd have the following
> possibilities:
>
> 1)  Red only on -- all okay

I'm sorry, but IMHO red lights on the dashboard shouldn't indicate that 
everthing's OK.  Make it green instead?

> 2)  Red on, Yellow dim -- cell starting to get low
> 3)  Red and Yellow about equal -- Yo, stop driving real soon
> 4)  Yellow only on -- Dude, do you really enjoy killing batteries?

If you use green and red, you get an orangey/amberish color for the 
intermediate state.  That's just about perfect.  Put them under the 
same indicator lens and smear their light together.

Is there a good way to use a bi-color green/red LED in this circuit?  
Then the colors mix right in the part, and reduce your part count as 
well.

>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Bill Dennis wrote:
> it might be nice to see one color LED when a battery was above around
> 2.9V, and another color LED when the battery was below around 2.9V.
> So here's a (probably faulty) circuit I've been thinking about so far:

I think this would work, but not very well. It will be tricky to choose the 
part values for the desired threshold, and a rather large change in voltage 
will be needed for much change in LED brightness.

Here's a slightly more complicated circuit that should work better and 
cheaper. It has a more stable threshold, and the LEDs switch sharply at your 
2.9v threshold.

+cell________________________
      |          |           |
   R1 >       R3 >        R4 >
 1.1k >      470 >      1.1k >
      >          >           >
      | Q1       |       Q2  |
      | PNP e____|____e  PNP |
      |____|/         \|_____|
      |  b |\ c     c /| b   |
      |      |       |       |
   R2 >     _|_     _|_     _|_
 1.8k >    _\_/_   _\_/_   _\_/_
      >      | red   | yel   | green
-cell_|______|_______|_______|

The green LED is used as a 1.8v reference. With R4=1.1k it will light dimly 
all the time, and also serves to tell you the unit is "on".

R1 and R2 set the 2.9v threshold. When the cell is at 2.9v, the voltages at 
the bases of Q1 and Q2 are the same, so both transistors are on equally. The 
red and yellow LEDs each get half the current supplied by R3. With R3=470, 
each LED lights with about 5ma.

If the cell voltage falls below 2.9v, the voltage at the base of Q1 falls. 
This turns Q1 "on" harder, and lights the red LED at full brightness. 
Meanwhile, the emitter voltage on Q1 falls along with its base voltage; this 
turns the yellow LED off. Thus, for voltages even slightly less than 2.9v, 
the red LED is full brightness (10ma) and the yellow LED is off.

If the cell voltage rises over 2.9v, the base voltage of Q1 rises, Q1 turns 
off, and the red LED goes out. Meanwhile, the rising emitter voltage turns Q2 
on, so the yellow LED is full brightness (10ma).

Is this the action that you want?
-- 
Lee A. Hart    814 8th Ave N    Sartell MN 56377    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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--- Begin Message --- 
Beautiful, Lee.  Thanks!

Bill Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Basic LED Question

Bill Dennis wrote:
> it might be nice to see one color LED when a battery was above around
> 2.9V, and another color LED when the battery was below around 2.9V.
> So here's a (probably faulty) circuit I've been thinking about so far:

I think this would work, but not very well. It will be tricky to choose the 
part values for the desired threshold, and a rather large change in voltage 
will be needed for much change in LED brightness.

Here's a slightly more complicated circuit that should work better and 
cheaper. It has a more stable threshold, and the LEDs switch sharply at your

2.9v threshold.

+cell________________________
      |          |           |
   R1 >       R3 >        R4 >
 1.1k >      470 >      1.1k >
      >          >           >
      | Q1       |       Q2  |
      | PNP e____|____e  PNP |
      |____|/         \|_____|
      |  b |\ c     c /| b   |
      |      |       |       |
   R2 >     _|_     _|_     _|_
 1.8k >    _\_/_   _\_/_   _\_/_
      >      | red   | yel   | green
-cell_|______|_______|_______|

The green LED is used as a 1.8v reference. With R4=1.1k it will light dimly 
all the time, and also serves to tell you the unit is "on".

R1 and R2 set the 2.9v threshold. When the cell is at 2.9v, the voltages at 
the bases of Q1 and Q2 are the same, so both transistors are on equally. The

red and yellow LEDs each get half the current supplied by R3. With R3=470, 
each LED lights with about 5ma.

If the cell voltage falls below 2.9v, the voltage at the base of Q1 falls. 
This turns Q1 "on" harder, and lights the red LED at full brightness. 
Meanwhile, the emitter voltage on Q1 falls along with its base voltage; this

turns the yellow LED off. Thus, for voltages even slightly less than 2.9v, 
the red LED is full brightness (10ma) and the yellow LED is off.

If the cell voltage rises over 2.9v, the base voltage of Q1 rises, Q1 turns 
off, and the red LED goes out. Meanwhile, the rising emitter voltage turns
Q2 
on, so the yellow LED is full brightness (10ma).

Is this the action that you want?
-- 
Lee A. Hart    814 8th Ave N    Sartell MN 56377    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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--- Begin Message --- 
Neat idea.
The old Mk2 could be upgraded to Regbuss with a clip on daughter board.

I am not sure how the fits in with our current plans. It's always cheaper to
have one PCB and selectivley populate it.

Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: Mk3 Regs


> Hey Rich.. How about making the 232/evil bus simply a daughter board that
> snaps onto the Reg board using a single header and four nylon standoffs
much
> like the add on daughter boards common to video graphics boards for higher
> end video in a computer?? That way your Reg boards are all the same and
the
> added bus support can be an in-field upgrade??
>
> Just a thought
>
> Pedroman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:38 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Mk3 Regs
>
>
> Hey Chris and listers..
> I have been busy all weekend building up my Fiero and shoveling Weeks of
> charger repairs and orders, so.. I have not been sitting here playing "EV
> lister".
>
> What I have been hounding all my Evil buss supports for is simple and
> robust. We don't need a Evil Buss that can play MP3 sounds..
>
> Bruce finally got the time to get code cut that works, but... we need some
> work on it still.
>
> The bridge is a special loaded MK3 board that has the 232 drivers and Evil
> buss terminators on it. We could cut a speical pcb just for this function,
> but I insisted that all the Regs be the same. This idea may be taken any
> way.... Dropping the 232 stuff could cut the normal Reg's Realestate by
> quite a bit. Having any Reg be just the one you need is also a good idea
in
> the real world of BMS field support.
>
> I gotta  go.... more appointments to make..
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Mk3 Regs
>
>
> > Rich,
> > I can't believe a day and half and not one response to this... I'll
> > bite, bring on the details!!! I'm very excited to see what you guys
> > have put together.  There's been a
> lot
> > of talk about doing this by a number of people nice to see some action
> > by somebody.  I know that Ralph and I have been working on and off
> > (mostly
> off)
> > for more than a year on this.  I suspect that if what Bruce and Sheer
> > have put together works it will make all the recent EVILbus protocol
> discussions
> > mute.
> >
> > Is the "bridge" reg a bus master?
> >
> > Details???
> >
> > Regards,
> > Chris Brune    Tigard, OR
> > 93 Honda Del Sol
> >
>
>
>
>

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--- Begin Message --- 
Mark Hanson wrote:
> I bought a 36V 15" x 6.7" Schaef motor part# 7600064...
> the field measured 7MH .9 ohms so it is really a SEPEX motor...
> Can I operate the EV100 control directly to the armature and connect the
> field through a resistor to 72V? OR just connect the armature & field
> in parallel and operate that way?

Yes, you could power the field with DC and use the EV100 to control the 
armature. With full field all the time, the torque will be high but you won't 
get much speed out of it. Once the armature reaches full pack voltage, you'll  
have to reduce field current to go faster.

You will also need to find the field's maximum continuous voltage (or current) 
rating. A sepex motor's field will be wound for something less than full pack 
voltage, like 20v for a 72v motor. This is done so they can overvoltage the 
field briefly to get lots of starting torque.

Do you have any specs on the motor. Can you see and measure the field wire 
size? Can you power the field and measure its temperature rise?

> I probably would need to add a failsafe field current detect circuit so
> if a wire pops off on the field, the control shuts down.

Good idea! My old aircraft generator had a contactor coil wired in series with 
the field, If I lost field current, the contactor dropped out and shut down 
the armature power as well.
-- 
Lee A. Hart    814 8th Ave N    Sartell MN 56377    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
G'day Lawrence

At 05:17 PM 13/01/06 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I am using a 0.5kw pump motor(ND or Nippon Denso) on the Schwinn Stingray. (5" x 8" Maybe 20 to 25 pounds)<snip> After the first Madien Voyage of 4 miles round trip it was down to a disapointing 24.3vdc.
That is still a reasonable state of charge, how long after stopping did you measure that? 


The motor wasn't hot to the touch just warm at the brush end.
Lack of heat is a good indication that the motor is operating fairly efficiently. My bike I had a motor shop reverse the motor direction and they didn't turn the brush assembly to advance it for the new direction of rotation so it got quie hot.
I'm using a 300 amp AXE controller 24-48vdc. The bike has tepid acceleration but pulls hills about as well as my 1000 watt Vego. The wire going into the motor is 10 gauge but the brushes are massive. The bike poops out just right at 19mph so when crusing at speed I'm sure I not using many amps but I better put a ammeter on it to make sure I'm not over amping on hills.
At that size of motor, with not much heat build up, I'd be surprised if you are over-amping.
The motor is heavy & solid but not as powerful as I had expected. I was expecting more off the line torque.
You need a data-point, can fit a motor ammeter and see how many amps you are delivering into the motor?
Is it possible that this motor could be modified to be a little peppyier off the line? I don't need more rpm's(speed) just more grunt from 0 to speed. It may have been a mistake using the pump motor but it was so big and beefy(and oh so smooth) for it's output I thought it would be long lived and durable.
Do you know how the motor is wound? you may be able to reconnect the windings to give more torque. 

The photos you've posted show very little of the motor.

Regards
James
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