EV Digest 5090
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Votes - how are we doin' ?- Current Eliminator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Looking for some Vintage EV - Video
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Basic LED Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Basic LED Question and simulating circuits
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Where can I get a high voltage switch? 48+
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Keeping contactors out of the environment?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: "This New Car" Radio Show now on-line
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Budget EV - motor mount and coupler
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Joe Sixpack de-lurks: re budget Geo Metro EV
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Budget EV - motor mount and coupler
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Joe Sixpack de-lurks: re budget Geo Metro EV
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Mk3 Regs
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Budget EV - motor mount and coupler
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/12/06 5:22:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< I wish Dennis had submitted his Current Eliminator.
How about it Dennis? I'll ship a BLDC blower or pump
for free
if you submit the CE. Most are 13.8Vdc or 27.6Vdc,
I'll
sends specs if your interested.
Rod
>>
Thanks Rod for thinking of the Currenteliminator as a possible contender.I
would like to see her up there someday when I can duplicate or exceed its
record,for now the car is just another bracket racer. She is
racing
at speedworld today. Pinkslip the show is filming at
speedworld today also.
Next weekend 2- $5000.a day bracket races
Last weekend average
reaction time .0047 over 7 passes Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for some Vintage EV - Video
> Contact Marvin Rush. He either is responsible for that one or he knows who
> is. You can probably contact him through the EV1 Owners Club. He was
> involved somehow in the Star Trek series of shows and he was so upset with
> the poor marketing of the EV1 by General Motors that he produced his own
> commercial and had it played on TV. GM was so embarrassed that they
finally
> bought it from him. Guerilla tactics. We need much more of this! I guess
the
> vote thing on Drag Times is kind of like that.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:53 AM
> Subject: Looking for some Vintage EV - Video
>
>
> > Love the movie trailer to " EV -Confidential - Who Killed the Electric
> > Car" Now, would LOVE to get a copy of the ORIGINAL GM EV1 Ad.
done
> > (I think) by Lucas Light and Magic.... You know the one where all the
> > electric appliances hop out into the street, and the voice over
> > comes in...." The ELECTRIC car has arrived" (or something like that)
> > Hi All;
The EAA of DC guyz have a copy. When I was at their Christmas Dinner
gettogetherr SOMEbody dragged a vid of it out. It was great! the car ariving
on the street, ALL the E appliances, EVen toasters, hobbled out to greet it.
Was THAT Marvin's ad? The EV-1 Fanclub" Driving the Future" had a few radio
spots to download and listen to, YEARS ago. THEY were great. "Imagine a car
that doesn't need gas, smogged, water, oil, on and on, then "It is here,
now, at your Saturn Dealer, today...the EV-1" Remember that one. All this
history will bring tears to your eyes, especially if you ever DROVE one,
EVen just around the block.They woulda outsold Hummers, had they been
offered! H2- H3 s and all their ilk.
The EV-1 Fanclub would be hugh! BTW Thanks Dave for the List History,
that SOMEBODY has saved it all. Maybe someday, after EV's are common,
History Channel would want to dig through the archives. Maybe not as
thoueoughly as , say, Titanic Geeks, How many beers ,eggs, and pounds of
butter was put aboard, before she sailed. But historical stuff over the
years. When I signed up, in 98-or99 it was pretty quiet. Ten , twenty
messages a day.John Wayland was very active back then.My old computer may
still have some early stuff on it, still? Haven't junked it yet.Back to the
story;
Dave Goldstein? Got yur ears on? WHO hada copy in EAA DC.?
Seeya at BBB
Bob
> > I really THOUGHT I had a copy... but sifting through countless hours of
> > old EV video from the early 90's I can not find it.
> >
> > I know there is a little POSTAGE STAMP size video on the Web, but it can
> > hardly be viewed. So I am looking for a full screen VHS copy.
> >
> > Will $$ Pay a reasonable fee for the copy...
> > --
> > Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> > Seattle EV Association
> > 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> > Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> > Day: 206 850-8535
> > Eve: 206 524-1351
> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > web: http://www.seattleeva.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/228 - Release Date:
1/12/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/228 - Release Date: 1/12/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, I was just reviewing this circuit further. How does the 470-Ohm R3
resistor allow 10ma to flow? If the cell is at 2.8V and the red LED is
dropping 1.7V, then wouldn't the red LED be running at closer to 2ma--
(2.8V - 1.7V) / 470-Ohm?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
+cell________________________
| | |
R1 > R3 > R4 >
1.1k > 470 > 1.1k >
> > >
| Q1 | Q2 |
| PNP e____|____e PNP |
|____|/ \|_____|
| b |\ c c /| b |
| | | |
R2 > _|_ _|_ _|_
1.8k > _\_/_ _\_/_ _\_/_
> | red | yel | green
-cell_|______|_______|_______|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/my_photos
Here are some pictures of the brush. I only count two. It looks like a
series motor but no cooling & completly covered brushes. 5 by 7 inches long
and heavy. It smoked at 5 to one but now it seems to be happy at 10 to one
even climbing steep hills. It was the madien voyage so maybe the batteries
will do better after breaking in. Pack was down to 12.3vdc. I added three
pictures of the motor with the brush cover off. Notice the built in
contactor. That was a nice feature. The 12v 4ah battery was only down to
12.55 after the 4 miles so that might be sized correctly. I hope the
pictures help. There are only two brushes. Will timing help? Will it
increase rpm or efficiency? The plate says 0.5kw. If I time it for more
power will it run hotter? The looks of the bike are slightly spoiled by the
battery placement. I wanted to keep both batteries in the triangle below
the rider but I was cautioned to keep the battery weight back on the bike.
Thanks for any help. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
Hey Lawrence
Well I went to the pic link and damn if I didn't see one motor pic! Tisk,
Tisk, Man I got to train you boys better ; ) I followed your tread for a
while but it drifted to the sprocket issues. As I remember (again no pics
for meeeeeee to look at, LMAO) you're using a PM motor right? If so I dout
there is much you can do. You could try loosening the bolts and rotating
the comm just a tad to see if you can time it a bit. Some PM motors have a
little pin that is there to keep the plate in nuetral but others do not have
them and so you can assemble one and have it off nuetral. You may or may
not be able to tell if it has a pin from the ouside. Just so you know even
series wound motors don't always meet expectations. Tiny Tim did somewhere
around 30 MPH 24 volt (no idea on range) which wasn't bad but the amp draw
was higher than I expected. I guess you could say Tiny Tim left me wanting
more, so I put together Mighty Tim. Matt and Shawn are scrambling to mount
it up for BBB next weekend. Will it work and run good times? I have no
idea, lmao! Just thought I'd share with you that even for me its trial and
error, so don't let it get you down. Of course I got a bigger pile of
motors to choose from (with pics, hahaha!)
Hey Wayland get off the drag times site, someone needs you here!
Sorry I couldn't help more
Cya
Jim
Hey I just saw this isn't list, LMAO again hey take a motor pic / s and
send them to me. I can at least look at your comm and brushes and stuff
Cya
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am using a 0.5kw pump motor(ND or Nippon Denso) on the Schwinn Stingray.
(5" x 8" Maybe 20 to 25 pounds) I finally decided on a 10 2/7ths to one
ratio(7 to 72). Damn if my calculations came in within one mile per
hour(lucky guess. I thought it'd do 20 (and probably would have at 10 to
1). On a flat the bike almost does 19 mph. UP hills 8 to 10mph. Just
perfect to comply with the law. After the first Madien Voyage of 4 miles
round trip it was down to a disapointing 24.3vdc. The motor wasn't hot to
the touch just warm at the brush end. I'm using a 300 amp AXE controller
24-48vdc. The bike has tepid acceleration but pulls hills about as well as
my 1000 watt Vego. The wire going into the motor is 10 gauge but the
brushes are massive. The bike poops out just right at 19mph so when
crusing
at speed I'm sure I not using many amps but I better put a ammeter on it
to
make sure I'm not over amping on hills. If some of the experts like John
who is now working on forklifts or Jim who rebuilds motors for them could
tell me what kind of problems I should expect using this motor as stock?
Already I have a bad feeling that is isn't very efficient. The motor is
heavy & solid but not as powerful as I had expected. I was expecting more
off the line torque. Is it possible that this motor could be modified to
be
a little peppyier off the line? I don't need more rpm's(speed) just more
grunt from 0 to speed. It may have been a mistake using the pump motor but
it was so big and beefy(and oh so smooth) for it's output I thought it
would
be long lived and durable. But 4 miles range isn't what I expected. I was
thinking more like 15 miles on the flats. I'm using two 33ah DCS-33H
Interstate batteries. Any comments apreciated.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/my_photos Here are some photos.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos - Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and we'll bind it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Morning all
Hey I get some pics to look at! ; ) and actually I remember you did post
some pics before so thanks for the refresh.
I've done a few of these motors over the years. That should be a per-mag
motor and not a series motor with field coils. If you look on the housing area
of the motor you should not see any pole shoe (field coil retaining) bolts
heads between the CE to DE plates along the main motor body.
There isn't a good housing area pic so you'll have to look. Per-mag motors
are set and you can't re-plumb them (Field wise) in the way they influence the
armature. On a field wound motor you can re-plumb (re-wire) the way the coils
are wired (series, series / parallel, parallel). One could add or remove
windings or even replace the fields with different (thicker or thinner) wire.
On a PM (per-mag) motor there is no option I know of.
These power steering lift motors are designed to be continuous duty. They
are set to be run from the time the key is on, till it is turned off on the
forklift. In this role the motor is not being taxed that hard and so they get
by with only 2 brushes, and is rated as continuous duty. Now you are using it
as a drive motor with a heavier load than it's pre-bike life. Determining its
new rating will be through taking it through the paces to see how hot it gets
doing the current job. The fact that this motor has just 2 brushes is a bummer
as they don't get to share the current load with a shared partner brush, like 4
brushed motors. PM armatures are also wound with a much smaller wire than a
typical series wound motor. To top it off any power steering motor (from a
forklift)whether it is a field or PM wound will be lacking in the umph
department, lets just say they are designed to be amp sippers and not guzzling
amp pig, lol.
Lets take the Tiny Tim vs. Mighty Tim as an example, since they've been added
to this thread. Tiny has small wired fields and armature windings (much like
your armature)and is a two pole, two brushed motor (again like yours). Takes
more current to push him to "X" speed, and well he gets a little pissed (hot)
when taxed to much. This little guy ran around 175 amps at 24 volts (pocket
bike). Now, I can't stand it any longer (was waiting for more info / let them
post) but Shawn Waggner called me late last night for an update on Mighty Tim.
Lets just say it's the AMP PIG I was hoping he would be. I'll tease you with
it pulled 755 amps at 24 volts (same bike and batteries), and well Shawn seemed
excited about the torque and speed. This motor is a 4 pole, 4 brush, thick
wired motor with the coils plumbed in series for the highest torque. I also
modified a brush set that was dual leaded for a higher current capability.
Both Tim's are 4" (Delco starter sized) motors but a!
re very
different in attitude. I don't see a way to do this with a PM motor.
You may be able to play with timing but I doubt you could get much more
unless it is off to begin with or maybe you do need an advancement. If in fact
you do have fields, and lets say they are plumbed series / parallel, then you
could re-plumb them to series and you would achieve more torque on take off
using that same armature. You would loose top end speed, but then again maybe
you could squeeze another battery in there somewhere, hehehehe. I always
thought the OEM solenoid mount was nice on that motor also.
Not sure who the Zappy folks are but I figured I'd send a reply to all since
it is a thread flowing there via Lawrence. I hope this made sense as to PM and
series wound motors.
Sorry I was unable to help much.
You got a nice bike, so just continue to search for motor options as time
goes by, but enjoy what you have done. Keep up the good work.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/my_photos
Here are some pictures of the brush. I only count two. It looks like a
series motor but no cooling & completly covered brushes. 5 by 7 inches long
and heavy. It smoked at 5 to one but now it seems to be happy at 10 to one
even climbing steep hills. It was the madien voyage so maybe the batteries
will do better after breaking in. Pack was down to 12.3vdc. I added three
pictures of the motor with the brush cover off. Notice the built in contactor.
That was a nice feature. The 12v 4ah battery was only down to 12.55 after the
4 miles so that might be sized correctly. I hope the pictures help. There are
only two brushes. Will timing help? Will it increase rpm or efficiency? The
plate says 0.5kw. If I time it for more power will it run hotter? The looks
of the bike are slightly spoiled by the battery placement. I wanted to keep
both batteries in the triangle below the rider but I was cautioned to keep the
battery weight back on the bike.
Thanks for any help. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Husted
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Hydraulic pump motors as scooter motors.
Hey Lawrence
Well I went to the pic link and damn if I didn't see one motor pic! Tisk,
Tisk, Man I got to train you boys better ; ) I followed your tread for a
while but it drifted to the sprocket issues. As I remember (again no pics for
meeeeeee to look at, LMAO) you're using a PM motor right? If so I dout there
is much you can do. You could try loosening the bolts and rotating the comm
just a tad to see if you can time it a bit. Some PM motors have a little pin
that is there to keep the plate in nuetral but others do not have them and so
you can assemble one and have it off nuetral. You may or may not be able to
tell if it has a pin from the ouside. Just so you know even series wound
motors don't always meet expectations. Tiny Tim did somewhere around 30 MPH 24
volt (no idea on range) which wasn't bad but the amp draw was higher than I
expected. I guess you could say Tiny Tim left me wanting more, so I put
together Mighty Tim. Matt and Shawn are scrambling to mount it up !
for BBB
next weekend. Will it work and run good times? I have no idea, lmao! Just
thought I'd share with you that even for me its trial and error, so don't let
it get you down. Of course I got a bigger pile of motors to choose from (with
pics, hahaha!)
Hey Wayland get off the drag times site, someone needs you here!
Sorry I couldn't help more
Cya
Jim
Hey I just saw this isn't list, LMAO again hey take a motor pic / s and send
them to me. I can at least look at your comm and brushes and stuff
Cya
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am using a 0.5kw pump motor(ND or Nippon Denso) on the Schwinn Stingray.
(5" x 8" Maybe 20 to 25 pounds) I finally decided on a 10 2/7ths to one
ratio(7 to 72). Damn if my calculations came in within one mile per
hour(lucky guess. I thought it'd do 20 (and probably would have at 10 to
1). On a flat the bike almost does 19 mph. UP hills 8 to 10mph. Just
perfect to comply with the law. After the first Madien Voyage of 4 miles
round trip it was down to a disapointing 24.3vdc. The motor wasn't hot to
the touch just warm at the brush end. I'm using a 300 amp AXE controller
24-48vdc. The bike has tepid acceleration but pulls hills about as well as
my 1000 watt Vego. The wire going into the motor is 10 gauge but the
brushes are massive. The bike poops out just right at 19mph so when crusing
at speed I'm sure I not using many amps but I better put a ammeter on it to
make sure I'm not over amping on hills. If some of the experts like John
who is now working on forklifts or Jim who rebuilds motors for them could
tell me what kind of problems I should expect using this motor as stock?
Already I have a bad feeling that is isn't very efficient. The motor is
heavy & solid but not as powerful as I had expected. I was expecting more
off the line torque. Is it possible that this motor could be modified to be
a little peppyier off the line? I don't need more rpm's(speed) just more
grunt from 0 to speed. It may have been a mistake using the pump motor but
it was so big and beefy(and oh so smooth) for it's output I thought it would
be long lived and durable. But 4 miles range isn't what I expected. I was
thinking more like 15 miles on the flats. I'm using two 33ah DCS-33H
Interstate batteries. Any comments apreciated.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/my_photos Here are some photos.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
Photo Books. You design it and well bind it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Instead of building a circuit, I often simulate on
linear technologies FREE simulation software, LTspice
or switchercad.
http://www.linear.com/company/software.jsp
This software is very easy to use and allows you to
play around
with various setups to see their effect before
actually
building a real circuit.
Rod
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee, I was just reviewing this circuit further. How
> does the 470-Ohm R3
> resistor allow 10ma to flow? If the cell is at 2.8V
> and the red LED is
> dropping 1.7V, then wouldn't the red LED be running
> at closer to 2ma--
> (2.8V - 1.7V) / 470-Ohm?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> +cell________________________
> | | |
> R1 > R3 > R4 >
> 1.1k > 470 > 1.1k >
> > > >
> | Q1 | Q2 |
> | PNP e____|____e PNP |
> |____|/ \|_____|
> | b |\ c c /| b |
> | | | |
> R2 > _|_ _|_ _|_
> 1.8k > _\_/_ _\_/_ _\_/_
> > | red | yel | green
> -cell_|______|_______|_______|
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:17:26 -0800 (PST), Jim Husted
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These power steering lift motors are designed to be continuous duty. They
> are set to be run from the time the key is on, till it is turned off on the
> forklift. In this role the motor is not being taxed that hard and so they
> get by with only 2 brushes, and is rated as continuous duty. Now you are
> using it as a drive motor with a heavier load than it's pre-bike life.
> Determining its new rating will be through taking it through the paces to see
> how hot it gets doing the current job. The fact that this motor has just 2
> brushes is a bummer as they don't get to share the current load with a shared
> partner brush, like 4 brushed motors. PM armatures are also wound with a
> much smaller wire than a typical series wound motor. To top it off any power
> steering motor (from a forklift)whether it is a field or PM wound will be
> lacking in the umph department, lets just say they are designed to be amp
> sippers and not guzzling amp pig, lol.
I noticed something else in those pics. The commutator is soft
soldered instead of being welded, silver soldered or sil-phosed. That
means you can't get away with a lot of extra heat before the solder
melts and slings out.
Lawrence, I know you've already spent some bux on getting that motor
machined but you really don't have a very good motor for this app.
Weight and size, if nothing else. Have you considered one or two
Currie BLDC motors, perhaps with an external controller? Each motor
is the same power (0.5hp) but a fraction of the size and weight.
I have a Currie scooter with twin Kollmorgen motors that easily
cruises at 30-35 mph with a range of over 10 miles at speed on 7ah
batteries. It barely sips power. I'd think that the larger wheels on
your bike would do even better from lower rolling resistance.
Re: battery placement. I have a friend who has built a conventional
framed E-bike using a huge 1 hp navy surplus blower motor and 3 large
batteries, probably 30 ah. The motor has to weigh 80 lbs and the
entirety of the thing sticks out to one side. It is one of the
highest objects on the bike too. About the worst placement one could
come up with and yet it works fairly well. It's a major effort to
hold upright stationary but once one is moving, it rides like any
other bike. No conscious compensation necessary. Point being, I'd
not worry too much about weight distribution. Especially with that
low chassis, it'll ride OK no matter where the weight is located.
If you went to a Currie-type motor you could sling one battery on each
side like saddlebags. That'd be a nice setup.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I noticed something else in those pics. The commutator is soft
soldered instead of being welded, silver soldered or sil-phosed. That
means you can't get away with a lot of extra heat before the solder
melts and slings out.
Hey John, all
This a good point you made. I remember when just about all armatures were
plain soldered (I must be getting old). The one nice thing about it was that
if someone overloaded the motor it would spit the solder and "smoke" due to the
cold-connection. Most would then pull the motor for repair. Most of the time
the armature would suffer little damage other than needing to be re-soldered,
and having a turn and undercut. It kind of acted as a bit of a fuse, even if a
very poor one. I do admit that removing the spit solder from the inside of the
motor was a bummer! Now though, when you over load an armature and you get
smoke your armature has a good chance of looking like the marshmellow that's
fallen from the campfire stick : )
Your comments on the solder brought back thoughts of older motors and younger
days (not that I'm getting old).
Excellent add on.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ken Trough wrote:
Lee said:
Put diodes across the two contactor coils
I've seen heavy duty contactors with diodes across the coils like this
and I've seen them without. What does the diode accomplish in this
context? I know a diode is a one-way gate, but what does it do for the
contactor specifically? How "bad" is it not to use one?
The diode across the coil of a contactor is used as a 'snubber' to
protect whatever device is used to drive the contactor's coil. If one
uses a small microswitch to turn the contactor on and off for an
example, the current to run the coil isn't a big deal for the
microswitch to handle, it's what happens when you turn off the power to
that coil that's the issue. A 12 volt rated contactor coil can make as
much as 200 volts when its magnetic field collapses on turn-off and the
CEMF (counter electro-motive force) spits out this brief higher voltage
spike.
I gave an EV100 forklift controller class today, and we just discussed
this issue. One of the more dramatic examples I use to prove the
existence of this 100+ volt spike that a contactor's coil can spit-out,
is where I use the small pilot lamp of an outlet strip's on-off rocker
switch as an indicator. I explain how the NE2 neon bulb inside the
switch needs around 80-120 volts of juice to 'fire' and light up. I plug
the outlet strip into a 120 vac outlet, flip the switch, and show them
how it of course, lights up. Then, I take a 24V battery supply and
connect it to the outlet strip plug to show them how the lower voltage
can't light the indicator. Then, I take that same 24V supply and connect
it to the coil of a forklift contactor, and with one side of the coil
always connected to one side of the battery, using an alligator clip
lead, I touch it to the remaining contactor coil terminal on and off,
and they can see the contactor clicking in and out, and, the resultant
flash of white spark that gets spit-out from said contactor's coil each
time a quickly pull away the alligator clip lead. Finally, I connect the
ac power plug of the outlet strip between the open end of the contactor
coil and the alligator clip lead so that each time the coil spits-out
its higher voltage, it lights up the NE2 bulb of the switch pilot lamp!
The diode across the coil acts in the same manner as does the flyback
diodes of a DC motor controller, capturing flyback energy (CEMF) and
feeding it right back into the coil that generated the juice. Doing so,
protects either switches that are controlling the coil, or, solid state
coil driver circuitry. You have to be careful when using a diode across
the contactor coil, though. If the diode isn't the right value, it can
do its job too well, and as it recirculates the coil's energy it makes
the contactor have a lazy drop-out action...in a forklift contactor used
for lift pump operation (read this very high currents), this can be
disastrous as the contact tips burn themselves up due to the s-l-o-w
opening of said tips.
Otmar uses a special diode device he supplies with his Zilla controllers
for use on contactor coils that addresses this problem, in that once the
coil's energy drops to a certain voltage, the diode opens up and stops
its conduction, allowing the contactor's tips to still open smartly. I'm
sure Lee, or Otmar, or one of our many more tech-savvy listites can
better describe this special diode and how it works.
Hope this helps.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking at placing a new main contactor on my motorcycle and I'm
wondering how important it is to keep it in a place that stays dry and/or
clean. It kind of seems to me that it shouldn't matter that much, but I
really don't know.
thanks
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps someone who downloads the shows - easiest via the podcast link
http://www.wicn.org/programs/thisnewcar.xml
can burn them to CD and snail mail them to you.
(I suggest that any offers are made off-list...)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 January 2006 9:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: "This New Car" Radio Show now on-line
>
>
> In a message dated 1/9/2006 1:20:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > http://www.bestrateofclimb.com/TNC
> I live in the sticks where i can only get dial -up. Is it
> possible to buy a
> cd of all 13 weeks of the pros and cons of alternative vehicles?
>
> Larry
> Cronk 72 Datsun
> Elec tk
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thinking of converting a geo metro automatic.
Remove automatic and replace with manual trans for a clutchless system.
OR better to keep the automatic ?
D&D or ADC motor Alltrax 7245 48 Volts 40 mph
Any opinions ??
Who makes an adapter/ motor mount/coupler ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks. I'm Joe Sixpack. (Well, one of many, probably.)
On Thu Jan 12, 2006, Lee Hart said:
> First, thanks to everyone for lots of comments on this thread!
I signed on to the list to add my thanks as well. I've been following
the "budget EV" thread through the Yahoo Group interface for a while, as
if it were specifically for me (thanks to Jerry at evconvert.com for
alerting me to the topic).
Background: we're actually two "Joe Sixpacks." A friend and I have been
toying with the idea of a undertaking a budget conversion together since
last winter. A couple of weeks ago this progressed from idle musing to
a bit of research and footwork, including: looking for a host Metro
(have found 2 dead ICE candidates); asking a few questions to
experienced EVers; and generally lurking around discussion forums and
conversion web sites. The project hasn't achieved escape velocity yet;
nothing has been bought.
Our "specs" in order of importance...
1) inexpensive (used & surplus stuff OK/preferred)
2) short range (15 miles OK - live in a small town where nothing is
further than about a 10 mile round trip)
3) low top speed (max 40 mph is OK)
I suppose essentially what we're after is a home made NEV/LSV - a
strictly secondary vehicle for errands or short-range commuting.
Sophistication and amenities are neither required nor expected (e.g.
power brakes, heat, dc/dc converter).
Our motivation: a combination of sheer technical curiosity, the desire
for a wintertime project, and the appeal of oil-independent motorized
transportation.
Our skills and resources are up to the task: we're both mechanically
adept and have all the tools we need between us, plus an empty insulated
garage (with fully stocked beer fridge) practically begging for a
project. We also have access to a machine shop and welding equipment.
Bonus: one half of the team is an industrial electrician. (Not my half.)
We would share the work & financing, then work out a "joint custody"
arrangement where we alternate who gets to use it. If it works out, we
might build a second one (not necessarily to the same specs).
What we lack is a modicum of knowledge about how realistic our cheap
(N)EV is and how best to "spec it out" and approach it.
So there you go - a sample of the kind of people who find this thread
interesting. The prospect of an actual budget EV formula/guidelines
coming down the pipe from people with lots of experience is enticing.
So, thanks again, and please keep going.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Thinking of converting a geo metro automatic.
> Remove automatic and replace with manual trans for a clutchless system?
> OR better to keep the automatic ?
If it's a budget conversion, I'd say keep the automatic. Let the electric motor
idle,
just as it would with the ICE. Use a motor with a rear shaft, so you can put a
pulley
on it and drive the old alternator and other accessories (air conditioner,
etc.).
Idling wastes a little power; it will generally draw 1-2 amps from the
propulsion pack
when stopped. This is low enough that you could leave it idling for a day or two
before it discharged the pack.
Automatics that don't have a locking torque converter are a little less
efficient, so
they will cost you 10% or so in range. I don't know if Geos have one or not.
If these two limitations are ok, then go with it!
>D&D or ADC motor
Either is good. The D&D seems to be a bit better quality, but I haven't used
them
personally.
> Alltrax 7245 48 Volts 40 mph
This will work, but is really undersized for even a Geo Metro. The problem with
running
a controller right at its rated voltage and current is that it won't last lon.
A few years if
you're lucky, a year or less if you're not!
>Who makes an adapter / motor mount / coupler?
They are all custom made, and thus expensive. Sources include Electro
Automotive,
KTA Services, EVParts, Canadian EVs, etc. You're paying some machinist
$100/hour for a few hours work. It costs $500 or so, but you know it works,
If you are reasonably handy with tools, you can also make it yourself on a "cut
to fit"
basis. It is tedious without a milling machine and all the precision gauges, but
can still be done. Steve Clunn (you'll see him on the EV list) is a master of
this.
Good luck!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am doing a similar project....
Issues I have run into ......
How many passengers ?? 2 ..OR 4/5
4 - get a 4 door car??
number/kind of batteries and battery placement ?
2 passenger - some batteries can go in back seat area
Automatic or stick trans ... clutch or clutchless?
What are you going to do about no more vacuum assist brakes,
heater/defrost ??
building or buying the adapter/ motor mounts ?
BUDGET ????
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks. I'm Joe Sixpack. (Well, one of many, probably.)
>
> On Thu Jan 12, 2006, Lee Hart said:
> > First, thanks to everyone for lots of comments on this thread!
>
> I signed on to the list to add my thanks as well. I've been
following
> the "budget EV" thread through the Yahoo Group interface for a
while, as
> if it were specifically for me (thanks to Jerry at evconvert.com
for
> alerting me to the topic).
>
> Background: we're actually two "Joe Sixpacks." A friend and I
have been
> toying with the idea of a undertaking a budget conversion together
since
> last winter. A couple of weeks ago this progressed from idle
musing to
> a bit of research and footwork, including: looking for a host
Metro
> (have found 2 dead ICE candidates); asking a few questions to
> experienced EVers; and generally lurking around discussion forums
and
> conversion web sites. The project hasn't achieved escape velocity
yet;
> nothing has been bought.
>
> Our "specs" in order of importance...
>
> 1) inexpensive (used & surplus stuff OK/preferred)
> 2) short range (15 miles OK - live in a small town where nothing
is
> further than about a 10 mile round trip)
> 3) low top speed (max 40 mph is OK)
>
> I suppose essentially what we're after is a home made NEV/LSV - a
> strictly secondary vehicle for errands or short-range commuting.
> Sophistication and amenities are neither required nor expected
(e.g.
> power brakes, heat, dc/dc converter).
>
> Our motivation: a combination of sheer technical curiosity, the
desire
> for a wintertime project, and the appeal of oil-independent
motorized
> transportation.
>
> Our skills and resources are up to the task: we're both
mechanically
> adept and have all the tools we need between us, plus an empty
insulated
> garage (with fully stocked beer fridge) practically begging for a
> project. We also have access to a machine shop and welding
equipment.
> Bonus: one half of the team is an industrial electrician. (Not my
half.)
>
> We would share the work & financing, then work out a "joint
custody"
> arrangement where we alternate who gets to use it. If it works
out, we
> might build a second one (not necessarily to the same specs).
>
> What we lack is a modicum of knowledge about how realistic our
cheap
> (N)EV is and how best to "spec it out" and approach it.
>
> So there you go - a sample of the kind of people who find this
thread
> interesting. The prospect of an actual budget EV
formula/guidelines
> coming down the pipe from people with lots of experience is
enticing.
> So, thanks again, and please keep going.
>
> Darin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich has probably gone over the design pretty well to determine if he
can reduce the price somewhere, and that he would probably ask us for
help if he wanted help. Right/Wrong, Rich?
I'm also assuming that a lot of the cost is just because of the low
volume production.
As far as the MCU goes, the Atmega 8 is only a few $. A more powerful
CPU board would require more interfacing anyway.
If Rich does want any recommendations ( I doubt he does from all of us
talkers ) I'd try to help.
We are spoiled by low-cost consumer electronics that are made in China
qty 100k for $0.59
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clutch VS clutchless
A response I received ....
" CLUTCH VS CLUTCHLESS
Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (EVA) provides both clutch and
clutchless designs. There are advantages and disadvantages to
both. The decision is the customers based on cost, vehicle make,
personal preference, etc.
EVA has used a clutchless design since 1987 and it works
successfully. However, because of some confusion, it should be
called a "clutch pedal-less design". We eliminate the clutch pedal
but not the clutch disk. The clutchless design is a direct
connection between the motor and the transmission. We mount your
clutch disk on a stainless steel and aluminum coupling; therefore it
matches the input shaft of your transmission and the springs in the
clutch disk absorb the initial shock from the motor.
In an internal combustion, not only is the engine always running,
but you have a massive flywheel. So there is lots of inertia and a
clutch is required. This is not so with an electric motor. The
motor stops when you stop. There is no idling. There also is
minimal inertia. Synchromesh transmissions easily handle any gear
change.
The clutch disk (provided by the customer) is critical. And we use
the existing clutch disk to connect the motor output shaft to the
input shaft of the transmission. The advantages of the clutch
pedal-less design are:
1. It allows the conversion of vehicles for which a clutch design
is not available or affordable. A manual transmission is
recommended because it allows you to operate the motor at higher
rpms but you do not have to add a clutch pedal assembly. This makes
it easier to convert vehicles that have an automatic transmission to
a manual transmission.
2. It eliminates the potential of overspeeding the motor with
different EV Users. If new drivers step on the accelerator and rev
the motor before popping the clutch, there is the possibility of
overspeeding the motor. This is a concern here in New England
because of the hills. With the clutch pedal-less design, you simply
put the transmission in gear and step on the accelerator. This
helps many high school drivers who may not have experience with
driving with a clutch.
3. The design is fairly simple. We need only three dimensions and
the clutch disk and we can make the adapter plate and coupling.
4. It allows the conversion of vehicles that once were automatics
without having to install the hydraulics etc. We have converted
existing S10s for the U.S. Air Force; they were automatics. We
just replaced the automatic transmission with a manual transmission
and used our design We did not have to install a clutch pedal and
all of the other hydraulics. this allows greater flexibility when
looking for a potential EV. The manual transmission is only $150.-
$300
5. Shifting is accomplished because of the minimal inertia of the
motor (no flywheel) and the synchromesh.
6. You save weight and money. One racing customer recently stated
that for every 7 lbs in rotational weight is equivalent to 100 lbs
of vehicle weight So by eliminating the flywheel and pressure
plate (35 lbs); it could be the equivalent to removing 500 lbs of
vehicle weight. The same goes with aluminum wheels vs steel wheels.
The disadvantage of the clutch pedal-less design are:
1. It takes a little longer (1-2 seconds) to shift. You cannot
speed shift. However, as I stated in my Driver Ed message, an EV
may drive in 2nd gear in town and 3rd gear on the highway. An S10
can be driven in 2nd gear from 0 -45 mph. So you don't need to
shift very often. With your car standing still and engine off.
Shift gears without pressing the clutch pedal. Notice how you can
go from one gear to the next without using the clutch. Why?
Because there is no inertia. It is the same way with the electric
motor, there is no huge mass of inertia. That is how the clutchless
design works.
2. Downshifting takes 1-2 seconds longer because the speeds have to
match. I usually downshift only at a stop sign coming off a
highway. Remember you shift an EV very infrequently. Usually only
2nd and 3rd gear are used.
We have customers who have the clutch pedal-less design (one with
more than 50,000 miles) and are happy and customers who would like
to try a clutch in their next EV because of their specific driving
conditions or habits (they always had one).
The synchros in the transmission make it smooth. Some people have
suggested that the synchros wear out quickly, but some of our
clutchless customers have more than 30,000 miles total on their
vehicles. For more information on clutchless, refer to Svein
Medhus' Ford Express Electric Home Page This is our customer in
Norway. This includes pictures of the installation of clutchless,
the clutch installation is similar. Another site is
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4429/cl3.htm
Once we asked someone on the West Coast why they thought a clutch
was required and how that myth got started. He stated that a clutch
was required on the old voltage switching and resistance controllers
in order to allow one to park without banging the others cars. This
problem was solved with PWM controllers.
As always, we just want to give the facts. We offer both. My
personal preference is the clutchless because of the convenience.
Our S-15 truck has a clutchless design and aluminum wheels - it gets
great range because we eliminated about 70 lbs in rotational weight.
Using the rule of thumb above - this represents about 1000 lbs of
vehicle weight. WOW!
The decision is made by the customer based on the specific vehicle,
cost, driving habits and experience. "
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From: jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Thinking of converting a geo metro automatic.
> > Remove automatic and replace with manual trans for a clutchless
system?
> > OR better to keep the automatic ?
>
> If it's a budget conversion, I'd say keep the automatic. Let the
electric motor idle,
> just as it would with the ICE. Use a motor with a rear shaft, so
you can put a pulley
> on it and drive the old alternator and other accessories (air
conditioner, etc.).
>
> Idling wastes a little power; it will generally draw 1-2 amps from
the propulsion pack
> when stopped. This is low enough that you could leave it idling
for a day or two
> before it discharged the pack.
>
> Automatics that don't have a locking torque converter are a little
less efficient, so
> they will cost you 10% or so in range. I don't know if Geos have
one or not.
>
> If these two limitations are ok, then go with it!
>
> >D&D or ADC motor
>
> Either is good. The D&D seems to be a bit better quality, but I
haven't used them
> personally.
>
> > Alltrax 7245 48 Volts 40 mph
>
> This will work, but is really undersized for even a Geo Metro. The
problem with running
> a controller right at its rated voltage and current is that it
won't last lon. A few years if
> you're lucky, a year or less if you're not!
>
> >Who makes an adapter / motor mount / coupler?
>
> They are all custom made, and thus expensive. Sources include
Electro Automotive,
> KTA Services, EVParts, Canadian EVs, etc. You're paying some
machinist
> $100/hour for a few hours work. It costs $500 or so, but you know
it works,
>
> If you are reasonably handy with tools, you can also make it
yourself on a "cut to fit"
> basis. It is tedious without a milling machine and all the
precision gauges, but
> can still be done. Steve Clunn (you'll see him on the EV list) is
a master of this.
>
> Good luck!
>
--- End Message ---
